Forza Motorsport gets more love
by Steve Parsons 
{ Jun 8th 2005 at 3:23PM }
As a PS2 user who is still fiendishly addicted to Gran Turismo 4, I still cast an eye in the direction
of
Forza. It looks great, but can it touch the
champ?
The game has been out a little while now, so folk are still getting to grips with it. In walks Extreme Gamer, with a
review. For online play, Forza whoops GT's butt, for obvious reasons. GT doesn't have it! (Screw you, Sony!) Not sure
about praising the ludicrously named drivatar mode, however. Perhaps a Forza user can enlighten us, but how does this
"mode" differ from, say, watching a replay of yourself driving? Further down, where the press blurb is listed, it says
about training an AI driver, but then GT4 has B-Spec, which does largely the same thing. Though admittedly B-Spec is
not without it's issues. (IE. The driver, until he's done a LOT of miles, drives like an idiot.)
Back to the plot, however, the reviewer loves Forza. Surprise surprise.
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Dmitri @ Dec 18th 2005 9:47PM
Ive played forza and Ive played GT4. And I still keep sliding around everywhere lol. Maybe I am just too used to the good old Street + Tires = 110% stick way of life.
CheapyD @ Dec 18th 2005 9:47PM
"Perhaps a Forza user can enlighten us, but how does this mode differ from, say, watching a replay of yourself driving?"
Its useful for the long Endurance races. You can have your "Drivitar" race for you while you go get a sandwich or something. You still get credit for the victory if you win.
Yes, it is very similar to GT4's "B-Spec Mode" but that can't be used in all races.
michael @ Dec 18th 2005 9:47PM
The Drivatar = The Trained AI driver - you run laps around tracks, and the drivatar learns from your ability. So, you *can* watch him drive around replay style.. or you can enter him into races, ala b-spec. There's a huge cash hit from using the drivatar, naturally - but they can be very useful for a) beating a race you can't beat on your own, and b) enduros (which are not as long as GT enduros, but still, one mistake in 30 minutes of racing and it's over)
it's not perfect at all: there's no time-accel feature like b-spec, the drivatar can suck unless you put a lot of time into it (which semi-defeats the point) but the AI and especially the drivatar (after good training) drives very human-like, which is something i certainly haven't seen in GT.
Of course, you can also race agains your drivatar.. which is eerie - honest to god, he'll drive exactly like you (or at least mine does)
ttommi @ Dec 18th 2005 9:47PM
Forza is a good game, now if only there were a driving force pro wheel for xbox :(
OtakuCODE @ Dec 18th 2005 9:47PM
Yes, the drivatar is a great thing. I played GT4 a bit, but didn't get into the B-spec aspect much. All you did was tell the guy to pass or speed up and such, right? You didn't actually race around a track with the game observing how you drive, did it? That's what Forza does. It's not a huge feature of the game, I don't see why it should be dwelt upon.
I'm a big racing game fan, and I'm loving Forza. As I've said before, it seems clear to me that racing game creators are consciously and steadfastly against creating a sensible user interface for their games. Forza gets it better than most (certainly better than "come on, watch a replay... here, we'll launch a replay... wanna watch a replay?... are you sure you don't wanna watch a replay? It's really nice, I promise!" Gran Turismo. No I don't want to watch a goddamned replay!) but has its own issues.
The driving is difficult if you're looking for an arcade racer. The guide line is helpful, follow it. Even if you think "I shouldn't be braking this early", DO IT. Until you are pretty good with the car you are driving, following the guide line saves a lot of headaches. I like how there are various levels of help available for a driver, and every level of help you do without increases your winnings. But they don't punish you for accepting the help either. You can still race and do absolutely fine with all the assistance and you will still win enough to upgrade your cars, buy new, etc.
Every complaint I would have about the game centers around the user interface, where you obviously spend the least amount of time. It's definitely better than Gran Turismo 4 in that arena, but like I said, there are still issues. I'm convinced someone once designed the perfect interface for a car racing game and all the developers got together and voted to burn it to preserve the job market.
Reggie Jack @ Dec 18th 2005 9:47PM
The only people who focus on the drivatar mode are people who haven't played the game, it's much more fun to drive it yourself, but compared to GT4's b-spec mode, which you could basically cheat and beat the entire game with, it's a lot more challenging.
Whichever joystiq writer wrote this header should just go play the damn game so he can stop sounding like an idiot.
JamesE @ Dec 18th 2005 9:47PM
Can anyone here say that they own GT4 and Forza but prefer GT4?
Aside from arguements of Forza's lack of a proper force feedback wheel; Forza is clearly the better game. What I like best is the classing system. Aside from a few class ringers (ie: CRX), the classing system makes it fun for a room of 8 drivers to compete in 8 different cars and still have a competitive race. What a concept!
theberlindoctor @ Dec 18th 2005 9:47PM
agree with #6, for gods sake at least read about the game before knocking anothers review of it. and do tell us, how exactly one "trains" the B-spec mode AI? with the drivitar if you train it poorly, it races poorly, its a reflection of both your driving style, braking and cornering ability.. considerably more in-depth and challenging aspect of the game when compared to b-spec.
i find it funny you think the term "drivitar" ludicrous. "driver" + "avitar" which is exactly what it is.. certainly no more ludicrous than the enigmatic "b-spec mode" which literally means "Configuration Item Specification"
the reviewer loves forza for a very good reason: its a damn fine game. after playing both gt4 and forza for some time (side by side sometimes), forza always leaves a better aftertaste (even if it is more filling, hehe). at the very least, none of the silly scuff-a-wall-and-drop-to-30mph BS which drives me completly insane.
oh, and #7, the CRX is a ringer in the D class because that car is a ringer in that "class" in real life.
Chris K @ Dec 18th 2005 9:47PM
Steve, if you have an XBox, or were thinking about getting an XBox, get Forza. I am a huge GT fanboy, and have logged TONS of hours in all four games (never got GT Concept :( ), but Forza beats it hands down on the track. The tire model is SO much better that GT4 feels like an arcade game by comparison.
As for the drivatar, I haven't taught mine a whole lot, but he isn't the brightest guy around. He will sometime brake on straights to dodge AI cars, and he takes a poor line in many corners. He ends up being roughly equal to the AI drivers despite his occasional brain farts. I plan to train him at some point, but it's more fun to just drive it yourself.
The drivatar isn't as useful as B-Spec in GT4, because you can't speed up time, and because there are no races that I have come across (I'm lvl46, currently) that take more than an hour. There are no 24 hour races AFAIK.
Pex @ Dec 18th 2005 9:47PM
The MS Research team the built the Drivatar actually has a site up at www.drivatar.com with a lot of information about what it is and how it works.
Roshan David @ Dec 18th 2005 9:47PM
This is for the post #7.
I have both games and have top 100 times for most tracks in forza but i can honestly say that gt with the wheel is still the best auto sim in the console market. Forza is a great game as far as online play. GT really "attempts" to try and give u a real sim driving exp and for the most part succedes considering the hardware it was running on.
well i love both games but GT with the wheel is still the best.
"What a Concept"
MSM @ Dec 18th 2005 9:47PM
#11 Share your XBox Live ID with us.
I find it hard to believe that anyone that has spent signficant time with Forza and GT4 believes that GT4 is a better sim. Scuff a wall? Damage model? AI in GT4 drives like AI. The same AI used in creating user drivatars is there in offline gameplay. The AI competition (unlike GT4) don't drive like pathetic drones following the same line on a track map race after race.
Drivatars? Absolutely awesome. Racing against your own well-trained drivatar is a great way to get a sense for what you're doing well and where you need to improve. Even better ... exchange drivatars with others to learn even more and for exceptional competition.
GT4 picture mode? Wish they would have spent more time on the game ... including online enablement.
Chris K @ Dec 18th 2005 9:47PM
Has anyone else noticed themselves following much better lines in Forza? My theory is that the threat of damage has made me more conservative. Based on the way I always take Special Stage 5's turn one in GT1-4 (the constant-radius turn in the tunnel... full speed, not caring if I use the wall as a guide) versus the way I take the hairpins in Tokyo Circuit in Forza, I'd say Forza has made me a much better racer.
Unfortunately, while the AI is better in Forza, they STILL ram you in the butt heading into corners. And they're late brakers, so in dangerous corners (like New York Long's turn 1) they will often ram you in the rear at +50mph, sending you off track, or into a wall. I have had to pit on two laps in a row on eduros to repair the damage a back marker has done to me as I was taking my first turn on a new set of tires. :(
peeweejd @ Dec 18th 2005 9:47PM
no one mentioned how the drivatar training works so, here goes...
you start in a training mode. its 5 races (each on a different track with a different car). You run 3 laps or so and the game grades you (gives you a percentage) on each turn. The turns are broken into different types (short radius, long radius, hairpin, right angle, chicane, stuff like that). At the end of the race your average score for each type of turn is use dto make your profile. On the next race, you will have a chance to improve (or get worse) on each of them as well.
You also have different car types (high power RWD, small FWD, Heavy Cars, AWD etc).
After you complete the training, you can use the drivatar in races. You can also keep training your drivatar, but you are not forced to.
Rocket Punch @ Dec 18th 2005 9:47PM
IMO, No 900deg steering wheel and true force-feed-back. The only good thing about Forza is online play and damage.
For people who claim they drive a much better line because of damage, proves that they are not a good racing sim gamer at all, as this is what you should be doing no matter you got damage or not.
Chris K @ Dec 18th 2005 9:47PM
> For people who claim they drive a much better
> line because of damage, proves that they are not
> a good racing sim gamer at all, as this is what
> you should be doing no matter you got damage or
> not.
Wow. There's an unqualified statement.
I remember reading an interview with a race car driver (forget who... someone prominent) a while back asking how GT3 stacked up to the real thing, and he said GT3 was good, but it was much easier to drive because the cost of mistakes was almost nil.
Redwood @ Dec 18th 2005 9:47PM
Forza is good, but if you like REALLY realistic racing games, try GTR for the PC. It can be picked up for a decent price at Fry's Electronics. That way you get realism and can have force feedback as well.
Darren Cornwell @ Dec 18th 2005 9:47PM
Always loved the GT series of games, but I got forza a few weeks ago and it is rock solid. Fantastic graphics, depth of gameplay, overall duration of the game is long. Literally unlimited amount of customisation to your chariot, 'up to 100 layers of graphics'. The Drivitar feature is quite good, but he's only as good as your driving abilty and he doesn't get better over time, only if you train him some more.
The game starts off slow is rubbish little cars but quickly progresses onto the extremly fast cars.
The backdrops are beautifully rendered, my only gripe is the the reflection mapping on the cars is complete shite, looks like a PS1!
GTgamer @ Dec 18th 2005 9:47PM
Forza is a GREAT game, no doubt. As mentioned, my only regret is that there's no REAL force feedback wheel option. I'd love to have the Logitech wheel for the Xbox. Other than that, I get by with the MadCatz wheel.
Also, the AI sometimes drills you in corners which is about my only annoyance...running a clean race and then BAM! Usually in the final lap(s) too. They're coming into corners WAY too hot to make it and take you out (although it's funny when they're futher back and you see one of them go straight into the wall in your rearview).
That also brings into play the presence of slight rubberbanding where a mid pack guy can come screaming up near the end of the race even though you're clocking good times. One other thing I really can't understand is that the car always handles worse in a race than when trying your setup in Tuning mode (even accounting for tire temps, etc). There's always a noticable difference in handling and even the amount of time it takes for the tires to heat up.
Overall though, it's still a terrific game/sim. I haven't touched the drivatar yet since it's too much fun to DIY most of the time. The only thing that has made me temporarily put away Forza is Psychonauts.
RebelRider @ Dec 18th 2005 9:47PM
Stop talking sh!t Forza owns all racing sims!