Morons release game

"I disapprove of what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
~ Beatrice Hall

It's a natural truth of a free democracy that even the most ass-backwards of viewpoints is allowed to be valid in the eyes of the beholder. Unfortunately, just because you have the right to speak your mind does not guarantee that you are not, in fact, a shithead.

There should be laws against this sort of thing in the US, I know over here that this filth wouldn't see the light of day.

Harsh reminder of just how far away we are from "world peace" and such.

It is most ironic, those people (I use that term lightly) are thriving on a technology (internet) that would have most definately been never invented, or at least allowed to be used by the public if the Nazis had not been squashed in the 1940's.

Personally I find it sad that these people are so caught up in hatred and paranoia. I also agree with Ben... good post.

Racism in games is nothing new, similar themes to the one described have appeared before. What this and previous 'games are evil' stories have shown is that video games reflect the world we live in, even its most despicable aspects.

I even remember Hamas releasing a game a few years ago which of course featured similarly grotesque themes.

I wonder what engine they are using for it though ? Perhaps middleware companies could prevent the release of such games if made using their engine.

I think this is the same game that was getting a lot of hype a few years back, and I belive it used a hacked up version of the unreal engine. My friend was doing a report on racist videogames and came up with this alarming fact. The themes are nothing that he would agree with but he said the gameplay was actually rather good and he at times found himself actually, well not enjoying, but trying to win at the game. This was the conclusion of his report. Propaganda such as this can have a very seductive quality. That is the scariest part.

the engine they are using is called "Genesis3D".

but i am not really alarmed by seing games like that being released. i remember that back in the days, _everyone_ i know had games like that on their commodore amiga and c64 computers. it's nothing new.

these games were mostly written in basic and were REALLY bad. and in 2005 you don't write "KZ manager" in basic, but you take some outdated but simple to use 3d engine and build your game in your spare time. it's not even close to being "professional" or something.

don't worry, it's not a big thing.

The only thing more sad than a company releasing such a game is that people will inevitably buy it. Proof positive that some people are just mean and hateful, and some people always will be. Bleh.

I had always thought the quote was from Voltaire, and that is was worded slightly differently: "Sire, your views are repugnant to me. However, I will defend to your death your right to say them." Not that it matters at all.

What matters is that we condemn idiots who make games like this.

Wow, I can't believe you guys are used (for want of a better word) to such games.

Over the pond here we've been free of this rubbish since, well, I can't remember encountering one in the last few decades.

I think it was Die Hard had to even have the word "towel head" removed due to the ignorance of such comments. These games should be frowned upon and the makers immediately jailed.

It's a shame that headline grabbers jump all over a silly little Softcore mod in a Mature game yet let this sort of thing happen - how can they sleep at night?

And in other news, Joystiq/Engadget seem to have found a new love word in "dubious". More on the story: http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000027050757

Well, while i do frown at this game, and don't think that it ever should've left the sick minds of its creators, we can't censor it, or ban it. First ammendment is there for a reason. They ban this game, then they start banning grand theft auto games. And if that ever happens, that will pave the way to get rid of a lot of fun games on the market. I just hope that this game is not going too much coverage. I am not worried about going into Wallmart and seeing it there, not even EBGames. Their only means of distribution would be the internet.
Too bad articles like this spread info about this, rasing the awareness of this game and essentially giving it free advertising.

#9- ya, us guys across the pond are troglodytes. Granted we've only recently started trying to take over the world and find childish musings such as ones race or gender or sexual preference amusing, while you guys have tried, failed, and had all your former colonies socially invade your little island country.

Sweet. In 200 years or less maybe we'll grow up, till then, enjoy the ride.

In Canada, we have freedom of speech - EXCEPT if it's promoting hate (I believe this is the only exception). Anyone that says promoting hate increases the population's overall sense of freedom hasn't thought it through.

That being said, I've never heard of anyone being arrested for racism here.

TJ: There is still this small spark, dying though it is, of freedom over here, so excuse us while we don't commit titanic logical fallacies by picking and choosing what speech is deemed "acceptable" enough to be "free".

I absolutely defend the right of the creators of this game to create it, the right of people to consume it if they wish, etc. But I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.

Freedom of speech is meant to protect speech you view as repugnant, harmful, and potentially dangerous. If it was to protect kind, nice speech then there would be no point.

That being said, I hope the guys who wrote this get cancer.

i believe this game has been out for a while, but at any rate it's not a game that's good by any standards. even if the content had been changed to something much less offensive, it's a horribly bugged, shoddy, and poorly made game in its own right.

and sure, it is their right express such viewpoints, but come on, shouldn't there be some kind of line? it's hard to believe that there's people out there who still support this kind of cause.

"In Canada, we have freedom of speech - EXCEPT if it's promoting hate"

The problem with that is: who decides what is "hate"? If I'm arguing why my governor should be removed, is my speech going to be censored and/or silenced when it's found that I'm a different race than the governor?

When you leave it up to a government to make these distinctions, the power is going to eventually be abused and thus freedoms will be repressed.

uh...hello...we DO have similar laws in the US. it's not protected speech if it incites violence or acts of hate. if the game implores players to go attack minorities, then people do it, the game can be banned and its authors jailed.

If it's any consolation, it doesn't even seem like they can make a good game. These have got to be some of the worst textures I have ever seen:
http://www.resistance.com/ethniccleansing/promos.htm
And read this FAQ: http://www.resistance.com/ethniccleansing/faq.htm
Sounds like the game will barely even run.

GTA calls the groups you exterminate "gangs" and it's heralded. This game calls them "races" and it's condemned. We've got some hypocrites in the crowd today!

(Disclosure: I just finished playing GTA:SA)

First off I'm the last person here wanting to start a "our countries better than yours" rubbish. I'm far too old to care about such things, we are all humans and if we respect each other more the better. I think Americans are a great people, I think the same about the many types of people in this country - both our governments are the only people that have shame.

#11, either you are racist yourself or are very naive. You should also remember that thanks to the crimes of our past governments you are alive today.

Your Government is currently making the same mistakes we did and I don't hold you responsible.

But before we go down this route too far:

Racism is wrong and that is a blunt fact.

Accept or defend this game and you are as bad as the people that make it or the KKK.

We as a race (humans) need to stamp racism out, we are all one people.

What shocked me, and for the record I was meaning nothing bar shock at the lack of anti racism law, is that such a fundementally and traditionally mulit-cultural country could allow racism.

Bittery poor running of your country, that doesn't say one thing about you as a people unless you are racist yourself - if so I wish the worst possible form of death on you.

"The problem with that is: who decides what is "hate"?"
In this context, I've never heard of this applied to anything but blatant racism.

"If I'm arguing why my governor should be removed, is my speech going to be censored and/or silenced when it's found that I'm a different race than the governor?"
Not unless your reason for removing the governor is based on his race.

"uh...hello...we DO have similar laws in the US."
If true, kudos! I was under the impression that your legal system hadn't made it that far.

Chris, I think there is a small difference between atacking a gang of armed baddies in the videogame, and the systemic removal of every person in every race outside of the arian race in real life... don't you?

Se?32_Footsteps, it is a common misconception to associate that quote with Voltaire. Beatrice Hall, one of his contemporaries, used the quote in her book "Friends of Voltaire."

As for the ongoing issue of whether or not people should be allowed to speak their mind, the answer is a resounding YES. If people want to be ignorant fuckwads, then it's not in my (or anyone's) authority to tell them otherwise. I'm not, I repeat, NOT condoning the actions nor the beliefs of the makers of this game, but I believe that no one has the right to tell other people what they can and can't think. Is not an authoritarian state founded on the basis of controlling the minds and wills of the populace?

And no, killing gang members in GTA on account of your mutual hatred rather than their racial affiliation is not the same as systematically setting out to commit mass genocide on the basis of your own racial superiority. Of course, that's not saying that what goes on in GTA is right, it just means that it's less wrong.

the courts decide what constitutes hate-speech. it is not protected AT ALL. you can say what you want in the abstract, unless it can be tied to violence. if it can, you are going to jail. period. there is a huge conceptual gulf between "i hate all ____" and "kill all _____."

...and to lost canadian, saying sh*t like "I was under the impression that your legal system hadn't made it that far" when you very obviously do not have a strong enough grasp of key facts just underscores that you are not half as knowledgable as you arrogant.

You took my last comment the wrong way. I wasn't trying to be insulting, I just thought we were talking about the same thing. My bad.

You seem to be off on a tangent about violent video games and its effects, whereas I've been talking solely about hate propaganda itself - namely racism. Very different. I'm not talking about cause and effect; I'm just talking about racism itself. I'm all for violent video games - the argument that violent video games are the cause of violence is a load of crap.

Here's what I'm talking about: in the US, you could host KKK protests with people marching down the street and racist insults plastered over banners - as long as they aren't violent in doing so. That's the impression I have gotten from Americans speaking about "freedom" of expression - please correct me if I'm wrong. I say that this is flawed, and actually does less in furthering freedom than restricting that activity would do.

DISCLAIMER: I am not racist.

Isn't condemning the people who create this game for having a different point of view than yours rather hypocritical? I mean I certainly don't agree with this game, but what makes their point of view any less valid than yours? They believe that anyone who isn't white should die horrible deaths, you yourselves said racist's should die horrible deaths.

Killing is wrong no matter what the motive behind it, whether it's because you are ignorant and hate someone for their skin color, or because they are of a rival gang and you hate them for the color clothes they wear. I really don't see how this game is any worse than many others. You still aim the gun and pull the trigger at another human being, the motive doesn't really matter.

#23 - Ben Striegel.

In regards to comments that could have been due to my posting.

It isn't the fact that people should be allowed such opinion through freedom of speach, indeed I agree to an extent with your comments.

It's the fact these, well I struggle to find a word, dogs, can make a consumable product and make comments such as the comments found in the link.

For all I care he can talk about sending the mon**ys back to the j**gle all he wants in his own living room but the second he is allowed to mass market such notions and even profit from them is the second we as a nation and race should lock the fu*ker up for life.

Being in the UK we have laws making racial comments at football (soccer) matches illegal and that is fully justified, imho. What if I took my son to a game and he was subjected to such opinion/comments highlighted above.

The idiocy of racism will die in time, this will be prolonged if we allow these thougts a mainstream media.

Are little white kids allowed to taunt balck children in American schools? I sure hope not. Same goes for sport. And the same should be applied to gaming.

Freedom of speech is all fair and good, but wishing death to fellow humans is surely illegal, isn't it?

GTA *is* better?

GTA:SA = Black vs Chinese vs Hispanic vs Italian gang wars. You are rewarded (in cash!) for killing mass amounts of rival gangs. GTA:SA turf wars are a kindler, gentler form of genocide, in that you are rewarded for eradicating each gang from the city.

I don't deny that GTA:SA is a fun game, but it's a small step from GTA:SA to something like this.

marching and yelling "white power," while reprehensible, is very, very different from inciting acts of hatred. our courts have two easy to understand concepts: protected speech and hate speech. the first means that ideologies may exist (racist, communist, fascist, neoconservative, islamophobic, whatever), and that citizens may have these opinions and voice these opinions TO A POINT. beyond that point, where speech becomes an incitement to violence or racial harrassment, speech is no longer protected. if someone at a KKK rally goes up and says "you need to keep those n***ers away from our white women by force if necessary" that is hate-speech, whereas "you need to tell white women to stay away from those n***ers," however nasty and disgusting a statement that is, is protected speech. this concept exists in many democracies, including the netherlands, where theo van gogh called muslims "goat f***ers" in a book (an act that led an extremist to murder him), and germany, where skinheads are allowed to exist and march as long as they do not incite violence or use the iconography of the nazi party. most european parties have strong racist parties (austria, denmark, etc. who try to push legislation most americans and canadians would find disgusting). it's sad that racists like this exist, but a strong democracy and civil society will root out these kinds of a**holes and show them what's what within the confines of the law...this is what the southern poverty law center and allies did to the white aryan resistance and aryan nation groups...they sued them to oblivion. the US has very few skinheads compared to most european countries, and russia, where more than half the world's skinheads live.

Ready for some premium-quality ranting?

Don't get me wrong, Mr. TJ. I'd love nothing more than to see these ignorant asswipes up against the business end of a firing squad. But here's something a little insightful: we who hate them for their beliefs are not any better than those whose beliefs we despise. It's for that explicit reason that I don't believe it's my place to try and persuade these backwards retards to change their opinions, when I myself am so averse to adopting theirs.

I hate these kinds of people because of what they stand for. They hate people like me because I'm against what they stand for. Does it make any difference that my beliefs are shared by the majority, whereas theirs are not? One of the founding principles of the USA states that you must honor the wishes of the majority without infringing upon the rights of the minority. And the makers of this game are most definitely an extreme minority, a fact for which we should be thankful. These "people" are free to choose what to think, whether you and I like it or not.

Have you ever seen that episode of The Jerry Springer Show where the guests included a white supremacist and his children? It goes to show that even those with the intellect of a Jerry Springer audience member knew when to recognize a racist fucktard.

I don't mean to keep reiterating myself, but remember that these people are most definitely a minority group whose views are not representative of anyone with half a brain. Unless I'm mistaken (which has never happened, ever), there are more people in the United States of Latino, Asian, and African descent than there are of European (including the professed "Aryan") ancestry.

As you say, it's true that one sweet day people of innumerably varied backgrounds will coexist in glorious harmony. However, our preferred methods of bringing about racial tranquility differ greatly. Your method, as far as I can tell, is to force people whose view differs from yours to either conform or face the consequences. I, on the other hand, believe that the key to true harmony will be brought about through education rather than intimidation. Unless these people truly believe and accept others on the basis of their beliefs rather than their aversion to face the consequences of speaking their mind, true equality cannot be achieved.

/philosophy

Mr Ben.

You keep bringing it back to opinion where I keep trying to take it away from opinion, and to be honest despite my dislike of these people I don't wish death upon them. I wouldn't actually wish death on anyone.

Anyway, as I say you keep saying opinion, it's simply not that, please read my previous post and respond to that as to be honest your last comments are straying far from my points.

Sure they can have these opinions in their own homes for all I care, but the secon they mass produce these hatred's and illegal notions is the second they take it too far!

Making a game to sell to people is way out of order.

Surely you agree?

And sorry to not respond to your last comment, the trouble is I agree and you have gone out of context with my thoughts.

TJ, I don't think ben is missing your point at all. What he is saying is that even though it's disgusting and twisted that these people are able to market this product, that is still their right. Think for a second about all of the anti racism advertisments / propaganda (for lack of a better word) that you see on billboards and all over the internet. By right, if these people who, in my mind, actually have half a brain have the right to post their opinions and try to sway you to help prevent racism, then those a**holes who believe in racism should have the right to express their opinions in a public forum as well. You can't tell these people that they cant sell their videogames but not tell the people at the one.com organization that they can't sell their bracelets because that create just another form of inequality. Yes, in terms of this game it does almost cross the line of inciting violence because of what you are told to do in the game, but that just begs the question of videogames inciting violence in general. And I think all of us on this forum agree that the last thing we need is more fuel for the anti-videogame media.

and btw, as noted above this is old news, i remember hearing about this game nearly 3 or 4 years ago.

I think I'll have to agree to disagree to an extent here, it's obviously a social split with our country and yours.

It's a very tough subject really, who is right to say you aren't allowed to express and opinion as immoral as it may be, where do we as a society decide what's too much. I can see that argument, frankly I just don't agree, racism is a crime in my book.

An honest question or two with nothing meant bar curiosity:

What happens at school when a child is racist in America, does he get punished?

At a football match are racists actually aloud to shout racial comments at black players?

*Allowed.

Been a long day, one of those crossed synapse moments…

TJ...free societies allow people to voice their opinions nonviolently. but when those opinions incite acts of violence, society can and should step in. the reason racist abuse is outlawed at football matches in britain is because of the undeniable connection between football and violence in your country, and between hooligans and racist parties like the BNP. we don't have anything quite like that here, and neonazis are MUCH less prevalent here than in europe.

but here's the other point worth making...if this game can credibly be charaterized as inciting violence against non-whites, then it can be banned and its makers sent to jail.

we rarely, rarely have racism at american football or baseball matches...we simply don't have the hooligan culture europe and especially the uk does.

in schools kids will be punished, but by the schools not the courts.

"TJ...free societies allow people to voice their opinions nonviolently."

We are as free a society you though.

But you are very right, our culture (or more precisely small groups) is more aggresive so legislation is needed as any outspoken racism is likly going to result in violence - they go hand in hand.

"but here's the other point worth making...if this game can credibly be charaterized as inciting violence against non-whites, then it can be banned and its makers sent to jail."

I really hope so, even the name sounds to me like it can/will be :)

hey...we are plenty violent over here...but in different ways. ;) until the late 1960s the race situation here was horrible. civil rights and hate-crime laws we have came about as a reaction to those circumstances. since then we've had a lot of under-the-sruface racism, but overt hate-crime racism has nosedived. obviously british laws dealing with racism and hate-crimes derive from different circumstances, and provide different results.

my guess is that the makers of this game, if they end up making money off of it, will be sued into bankruptcy...

Se?TJ:

It's very noble that you don't wish harm upon those who wish harm to others, and that inevitably makes you a better person than I. As far as I'm concerned, it's my God-given right to hate the hateful.

Could people make racist comments in a public school? Sure. If they wanna get suspended. Schools are not democracies. Schools are authoritarian oligarchies.

Could people make racist comments at a sporting event? Sure, if they wanna get their ass beat. They would have to forget that football and basketball athletes are predominantly african-american, that the baseball leagues are strewn with Puerto Ricans, and that hockey players are mostly Canadian and Eastern European. I can't think of a single sport dominated by people with blond hair and blue eyes.

And yes, if the video game could be proven to inspire people to commit acts of violence against others on account of their ethnic background, there's a chance that the makers of the game might be arrested. However, you can bet for damn sure that the ACLU will get involved. Sounds like a Supreme Court-worthy case to me.

Excellent.

A very cynical but awesome response from both of you.

I love it, I honestly do. We live in a fucked up world and kudos to both of you for a very entertaining and intelligent discussion :)

I honestly can't really respond to such good comments, you guys rock, and that's all there is to it.

And in case there is a worry; There is no sarcasm in this post, great discussion guys. But damn I wish I could do that "Se? (C&P'd by the way) thing, love it :D

Oh and yeah I studied Apartheid at school in Advanced Modern Studies all those years ago, and I suppose respect has to be given for such anti-racist developement.

It took us quite a while, but in not much more than my life you have gone from black people not being allowed to vote to such a mainly tolerant society - respect is given there for sure.

W?, ?d? kn????LT ?d?

http://www.tedmontgomery.com/tutorial/ALTchrc.html