Carmack lurves Xbox 360 but ain't diggin' PS3 so much
by Conrad Quilty-Harper 
{ Aug 16th 2005 at 12:00PM }
If you listen very carefully, you can hear the crunching of
thousands of Sony fanboy's teeth (or is that just my recently purchased second hand gaming PC?) because of the news
that John Carmack of id Software fame is backing the Xbox 360. He's gone on the record at the recent QuakeCon with a
killer quote that the Xbox 360 is "the best development environment" he's seen for a console. If I
had a geek -> english translator handy it'd probably translate as "the 360 is my fave next-gen
console".
According to Carmack, the Xbox 360 has the best architecture and development tools so the game devs can do their jobs better. In contrast he thinks the PS3 will be harder to develop for with inital games being disappointing as a result. Now, before the fanboys eat me alive, Carmack doesn't think the PS3 is useless. His hopes for the PS3 lie on the possibility of the PS3 being a more open platform than previous consoles, with developers being given more freedom to make patches and mission packs without permission or registration. The chances of Microsoft ever allowing this kind of freedom are slim to none.
So a semi-retired game guru
thinks the Xbox 360 will be a better development platform. Does this say much about which console will win the war? Not
really, since it's widely held that the PS2 was harder to develop for than the original Xbox. The reality is that
developers will develop for whichever console sells the most games and that's determined by how many people own each
console; Catch 22.
[Via Iqniq]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
goochoz @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
Let the PS3 fanboys begin convulsing and foaming at the mouth.
SickNic @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
Carmack wants to get used to coding for multi-core processors. PCs of the near future will be using them, and he needs to get the practice in.
jc @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
"semi-retired"? Is that what they call you when you are a 'sell-out' these days?
This guy is amazing at telling us stuff that we already know.
How about we quote the makers of monopoly (boardgame) about the design of the new nintendo controller...
orrrr... we could just wait until we have some actual product to show.
TiaMaster @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
It's still a step in the right direction, as apparently M$'s XNA initiative does actually appeal to developers. Thats good news for those of us that just care about the games - not the console.
This (as said in the article) will most likely have no HUGE impact on the PS3. It's just simply a slight edge for the 360 in the development department.
metal_gear_jello @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
Like TiaMaster said, it's a slight advantage for the devs, but has no impact on the outcome of the console wars.
jspiker @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
he's a PC developer, and needs to stick with PC's we want console games for consoles not pc games for consoles!
John Kepler Lewis @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
....lurves?
DigitalStupor @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
I knew it! 360 is going to be a big success now--thanks Carmack! With the news it will cost over 400 bucks, and come with no HD standard, this thing will rule! PS3 eat crapola!
Dralt @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
Carmack is old generation. That's old, in plain english.
When he first developed for the PC, people were telling him how crazy he was.
Today, Sony introduces true parallel processing to video game developers, and they are told how crazy they are.
Things keep repeating as waves wash ashore.
SurfMurph @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
#5, how about just speaking for yourself. I love having Half-Life 2 and Doom 3 and FarCry and ... on the Xbox.
Unless you're speaking for all of the voices inside your head.
Rocket Punch @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
Yeah, and JFK said we don't go to space cause it is easy......
. @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
Leipzig Games Convention tomorrow!
Kuyu @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
Lets see here...
1) Xbox 360 has a 12 month head start on PS3
2) It's going to be cheaper than the PS3
3) It's easier to develop for than the PS3
Plus add in the fact that we'll likely see Halo 3 and a new SquareEnix game for the 360 on the day PS3 launches. And PS3 launch titles will not utilize the hardware fully, thus won't be any better than the 360 games (which will be a year more advanced, software wise).
Oh yeah, the Revolution will ship near the PS3. I'm glad I'm not a Sony stockholder.
J. @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
Wow, Kuyu, way to remember your Dreamcast history.
jspiker @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
# 9
all i'm saying is that this guy is a PC developers. Some games port well over to the consoles, but the majority of console gamers prefer consoles over pc's. The 2 sectors are drastically different. Part of the allure of consoles is that you buy the system and you don't need to dump 200 bucks in hardware on it to get the best graphics out of it. PC games must be built to work with all the different configurations that pcs may have. It's just crazy. I'm just saying that PC style games need to stay there, and they should try to make consoles be like pc games. I know a lot of people that'd say that the games you mentioned are much better on a PC because you can use the keyboard and mouse more easily than a joystick.
and to #12, who says it's going to be cheaper? there has been no announcement for either. 12 months? where you'd pull that from, march looks to be possible for the ps3 unless the 360 bombs.
1 other point i'd like to make, sony is like to take losses on their hardware,(thus we get more than what we pay for) and it sounds as if MS may try to not go this route this time because of their experience with losses on the 1st xbox. Just something too keep an eye on, but just think about that.
I'll probably buy both, unless sony really upsets me with what they do, and like wise for MS, don't make a profit on the 1st 12 months of the consoles and give us 2 different systems.
Napoli @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
Regarding #14, part of the DC's failure can be attributed to the fact that EA refused to support the system even though it was so much better than the PS2
chill @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
This might have had a little more of a impact if this came from jap developer and not a current xbox-pc developer....
Dan @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
"If I had a geek -> english translator handy it’d probably translate as “the 360 is my fave next-gen console”."
Actually you're starting with Nerd and downsampling to Geek. It's a fair long way to go from there to analog Human, which would be something like "I like this plastic box better than that plastic box because this plastic box makes prettier pictures."
paul maul @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
#16 even though it was so much better than the PS2.
In what way? PS2 games put DC games to shame.
DC failed because of Segas past deeds, please dont be a idiot and give EA that much credit or act like they had that much influence.
Dan @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
"Is that what they call you when you are a 'sell-out' these days?"
The guy started out making games about Space Marines who blow up Hellmartians with a "Big Fucking Gun" - no wait, I'm sorry - a "Big Fucking Gun 2000."
Exactly where do you go from there that qualifies as "selling out"?
Thunder Chunks @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
Always been a Sony fanboy and not afraid to admit it..... but I do like the look of and will be getting the 360. Looks like the price and release date has already been set. Im based in the uk and after the wait for the PSP I wont be holding my breath for the PS3!!!!!!!
TiaMaster @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
>"Posted Aug 16, 2005, 12:44 PM ET by DigitalStupor
I knew it! 360 is going to be a big success now--thanks Carmack! With the news it will cost over 400 bucks, and come with no HD standard, this thing will rule! PS3 eat crapola!"<
Well, fanboy, you really showed how stupid you really are by getting ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING wrong in your post. Waita go, Skippy.
Chris K @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
"True parallel processing"!? What are you smoking? The XBox has more CPU cores than the PS3. The PS3 has a bunch of DSP-like processors on die. That are great for stuff like audio/video encoding/decoding, but they aren't designed for the same kinds of tasks general-purpose CPUs are, and won't be nearly as capable.
This is the same problem Sony had with the PS2 and its VPUs. They're powerful tools, they're just not very useful for the kinds of things developers typically need another processor for.
Both the XBox and the PS3 are going to have problems right off the bat, merely because programmers aren't used to programming games for multiple CPUs. Carmack shoehorned multithreading into Q3 to little effect, and most games don't really take advantage of multiple CPUs. It's not just a matter of "put the AI on that CPU and the grpahics on that one". There are thread synchronization issues, deadlocking issues, memory management issues, and reentrancy issues that you have to account for. Multiple processors are great for multitasking OSes, but are less useful for single-tasked apps like games.
Napoli @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
#19 take a look at Virtua Tennis on both systems and tell me which game looks better. While its been a long time since I compared the technical specs of the two systems I believe the DC had more ram allowing for better textures and supposedly the PS2 wasn't able to Shenmue 2 which is why it later got rereleased on the xbox instead. The DC also has anti aliasing allowing a much smoother look to their games vs the PS2. When it comes down to it, if the PS2 is more powerful than the DC it is only marginally which is pretty pathetic considering the DC came out in Japan in 1998
jc @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
Hey Dan, I loved playing Quake TeamFortress (back in the day). ID was king back in those days. Their games ran well, were original and on top of that... they were fun.
What does ID do today? I have yet to see that magic that they used to have... they are taking the safe route that ensures their shareholders make as much money as possible.
Dan, to me, that is a sell-out, but hey... I am only a gamer, what would I know eh?
Chris K @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
Ummm... JC? Id is privately held. Any money that make/lose is made/lost by its principals. Like Carmack.
If you call making some of the most popular games of all time "selling out", and creating the engines that have powered many other games (Heretic and Half-Life are two good examples) then I guess Carmack has sold out.
I know character assassination is fun and hip these days, but at least pick a valid target.
phat @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
hmmm Carmac.. maker of the doom engine... PS3 seeing that the unreal engine is better and when with that... bitter much? I dont see how this guy still has any cred left in the industry.
Half-Life 2 engine Better
Unreal engine Better
Battlefield 2 engine Better
Offset engine (3 developers) Better
Doom3 was a joke and the engine is the worse out of all the newer titles.
Xbox is not going to sux but the PS3 is going to own.
jc @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
Hey Chris, I don't hate the guy, or wish him any ill-fortune... I just feel he has not brought anything new to the table in a long time. Personally I was let down with Doom3, but would really like to see him come out with some great games... again.
As I read through all the comments, I can't help but notice that you like to pick apart other people. Instead of trying to put others down, why don't you offer some comments that state how you feel... and not how others are wrong.
Dralt @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
Chris K,
Come on, "stuff like audio/video processing" is a big part of video games.
Having 8 independent processing units around the core could be a great thing. You could tile a piece of work and have it completed in 1/8th of the time it would take on a single processor.
"thread synchronization issues" are real and complex when you cannot assume anything about the underlying hardware. It's not the case here. The hardware is fixed and Sony should be able to implement/use lock-free data structures, which are based on low-level processor instructions such as compare-and-swap (CAS), or load-linked/store-conditional (LL/SC).
So, thread synch does not have to be a big deal.
In the end, PS 3 could as easy to use as the 360. It will depend on the quality of Sony's SDK.
I know 2 things: Microsoft has demonstrated a keen ability to produce bloatware. Sony has demonstrated a keen ability to produce software which is way too close to the metal.
You can pick your poison between these 2 evils.
Chris K @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
Problem is, except for exclusives, most developers aren't going to have time/budget to optimize that much for each platform. We're going to have generalized, high-level code running on each console, with the bare minimum console-specific code required to make the game look good. That means that developers will write for the lowest common denominator, and either skip the fancy hardware, or implement it solely for tricks like EA did with their DD encoder on the PS2.
Combine that with the fact that most console developers are used to programming for much more simplistic hardware (single CPU, some shaders) and I think we're going to get some absolutely spectacular first-party and high-budget games, and a ton of decent third-party games. Think Gran Turismo 3 versus Midnight Club 2 on the PS2, or Forza versus Burnout on the XBox.
I figure that the "weirder" the hardware (XBox hard drive, PS2 VPUs) in relation to the other consoles, the less it will be utilized in Joe Average Cross-Platform Game. That means less hard drive use for the 360, and less DSP (sorry, I forget their term for it) use on the PS3. And I see this hurting the PS3 a LOT more than the 360, because a great deal of the power of the PS3 (and indeed, the source of their silly-fast performance claims) come from these DSPs, where the 360 uses a much more simple system of three general-purpose CPUs, which will be much more easy for developers to wrap their heads around.
I expect GT5 and Forza2 to look absolutely stunning, while a game like Burnout will look merely incrementally better.
ill trooper @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
I know the guy made up the 'Big Fucking Gun' but it really seems to have stopped there, hasn't it? Nothing beyond rapid-paced FP shooters... Which are cool. But figuring out which kind of "reptile-zombie with no eyes" to have run at the player is not exactly pushing any innovation on us, is it?
That being said, I respect the guy, but I certainly take his opinion with grains of martian salt...
Dralt @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
Chris K,
"That means that developers will write for the lowest common denominator"
That is a real risk, indeed.
However, Microsoft and Sony can't be blamed for that.
And, those games that are specifically designed for one console or another will decide which console is perceived as the most powerful machine.
Chris K @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
It's not just the games, man. It's the engines, and the tech he has pioneered/pushed.
Wolfenstein popularized "3D" gaming. Without Wolfenstein there would have been no Duke 3D, no Doom, no Quake, no Half-Life, no Unreal.
Quake wrote the book on how to do true 3D. While you could say that HL was more fun, Quake was by far the most important 3D engine ever.
GLQuake MADE 3dfx, and by extension, the entire 3D hardware revolution. The importance of this cannot be overstated. Not only did Id drive hardware improvements for years, but they invented many of the techniques that are used in every 3D game out there.
Id popularized OpenGL, which was the only alternative to Direct3D, and by competition made Microsoft play ball with Direct3D, turning it into the API it is today. Heck, you can say that without Id, the XBox would never have happened (as they would have had no impetus to advance past their mediocre early versions of the API, if they had even dreamed up 3D gaming in the first place). And of course OpenGL would be relegated to obscure CAD and 3D modelling apps today were it not for Id.
Id popularized the idea of shaders through Carmack's experiments in Q3A. Shaders are a background technology, but a very important one.
There's a bunch else I'm sure I'm forgetting, but you cannot underestimate the importance of Id and/or John Carmack in the gaming industry. Id has pushed the gaming industry from Super Mario 3 to Halo 2. Without Id or Carmack, we would be years behind where we are today. Despite this, Carmack has remained a personable, humble developer. This is not hero worship... I have never met the man, and I don't follow his life any more than the next gaming crazy FPS nerd of the 90's did. But if anyone in this entire industry deserves respect, it's John Carmack.
Chris K @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
> That is a real risk, indeed.
>
> However, Microsoft and Sony can't be blamed for that.
Very true. It's not their fault. But if it's true (and I believe history will repeat here), it will come down as a big miscalculation by Sony. These consoles don't exist in a vaccuum, and pure DSP number crunching power does not make a powerful console. They need to design their systems around developer needs. I think the original XBox is the high water mark EVER for developer friendliness, with their PC-like architecture, hard drive, and XBox Live.
> And, those games that are specifically designed
> for one console or another will decide which console
> is perceived as the most powerful machine.
Problem is, it will be an apples to oranges comparison. It will more be a comparison of who is the better developer. I'm very interested, as I'm both a GT and a Forza fanatic. Polyphony versus MGS! Fight! :)
Dralt @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
"Polyphony versus MGS! Fight! :)"
My money is on Polyphony.
These guys are obsessed and can work 20 hours a day all year long.
Microsoft has trouble keeping exceptional developers around for very long.
Michael McGuire @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
Oh man.
""thread synchronization issues" are real and complex when you cannot assume anything about the underlying hardware. It's not the case here. The hardware is fixed and Sony should be able to implement/use lock-free data structures, which are based on low-level processor instructions such as compare-and-swap (CAS), or load-linked/store-conditional (LL/SC).
So, thread synch does not have to be a big deal."
You are kidding right? Perhaps after you're done with your CS degree and enter the real world of multithreaded programming, you can start talking.
Do you honestly think that the difficulty in multithreading has to do with the hardware? Seriously, don't start spouting off on things you don't know about because you just learned something in a class. Or read it somewhere on a board.
chill @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
#24 You must be high...Games like God Of War, MGS3 etc etc would look like shit on DC.
I still fire up my DC, but you are full of shit if you think games look better on DC then PS2.
[and supposedly the PS2 wasn't able to Shenmue 2 which is why it later got rereleased on the xbox instead.]
Over-rated and over-hyped Shenmue 1 didnt sale worth a damn on DC, Sony showed no interest in #2, so being "able" had nothing to do with it....You act like Shenmue 2 was some kind of graphical wonder...It wasn't that great looking on Xbox.....
Dralt @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
#36
Great flame bait! :)
I will not bash you, even though you have shown your great ignorance and total lack of imagination.
That's OK. We all started ignorant and without imagination.
However, I will point you to some reading materials that will teach you how to implement lock-free data structures based on processor instructions.
Because those data structures do not require locking, they can be shared among several threads without contention.
If you don't understand these words, don't worry, it's normal. In time, you will learn...
citeseer.ist.psu.edu/valois95lockfree.html
citeseer.ist.psu.edu/valois94implementing.html
citeseer.ist.psu.edu/michael98nonblocking.html
citeseer.ist.psu.edu/130360.html
That should be a good start for you.
Implementing thread synchronization using high-level locks is not efficient. When you control the hardware, you can work with lock-free and nonblocking data structures that allow you to avoid locking altogether.
I learned this and many other things since I got my Masters of Science in Computer Science and Engineering, more than 10 years ago.
I am sure you can learn these things too. That way, you won't make a fool out of yourself again.
Aegis @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
Since PS3 is suppose to come packed with the fabulous Unreal Engine 3 in tis dev kit, along w/ a choice of several physics engines. Sony has also bought off a couple middleware software developers as well. Seems Sony is ready to take XNA on.
If the PS3 dev kit came with an Doom3 engine I'm sure he would say the PS3 was easier to devlop for. I'm sure he won't be caught dead using the Unreal Engine.
Gianni Gotti @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
Maybe Carmack should buy an Unreal Engine 3 license? Tim Sweeney was able to get it up and running in 2 months.....
but seriously...
Lets remember that this is the mind behind Doom 3, awesome graphics tied to a gameplay design that is 10-15 years old. Ride the rails, flashlight, gun, flashlight, gun...repeat for 15 hours booring.
In his comments he bashes physics & advanced AI and focuses on graphics as the key to great game experiences.
You just need to compare HL2 and Doom 3 to see who won that argument.
Spartacus @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
#39- What? Game engines are software, not hardware. Which engines devs decide on using (whether lisenced or propriety) has little to do with the hardware architecture it's running on. I'm sure there will be games on the PS3 that are running the Doom 3 engine as well... And XNA is a software toolset, not a graphics or physics engine- So far Sony has nothing like it to offer devs.
Gianni Gotti @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
Er...We all know game engines are software not hardware. (Thanks for clarifying)
The point is that if this have gotten too complex for Johnnie to keep up then he should use someone elses middleware rather than rack his brains developing an engine from scratch.
In his remarks he indicates that most of the work on parallel programming models is purely theoretical and we will likely not see good implementations in this console cycle. Well, alot of smart(er) people are working on it and they just might succeed.
http://www.research.ibm.com/cellcompiler/compiler.htm
EAs Renderware, Havok, UE 3 e.t.c. will all be available. No one needs to go to the metal if they can't handle it.
Ruari @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
NERD.
getluv @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
Like the X-box, this guy should be buried. Mario & Luigi have more credibility than this guy.
Chris K @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
And how much credibility do YOU have, "getluv"? How many games have you written? Could you even tell a vertex from a polygon?
You'll forgive me if your opinion carries no weight.
wassert @ Dec 18th 2005 9:41PM
The ps3 is supposed to have better graphics than the xbox 360. so i hear it is also supposed to be faster than the xbox 360. even though the controller is an issue and that xbox has "tivo" . i still think that the ps3 will when the battle.