Xbox 360: The most hack-proof console ever?
Going out of your way to boast about how hack-proof your next product is going to be is probably the only surefire way to get an army of hackers on your ass, but Xbox engineer Chris Satchell declared in an interview with BBC News that the Xbox 360 is going to have levels of security, "that the hacker community has never seen before." He does concede that "sooner or later someone will work out how to circumvent security," but he also says that even if someone does crack the Xbox 360 that it "doesn't mean that it will work on somebody else's machine" because of the way it's been designed. Fair enough, but do you really want to inspire someone out there to prove you wrong?
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Fresh72 @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
i think more people will buy it just to prove how a good a hacker they are
mark @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
oh my... how foolish
Gyujin Park @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
Fresh72: lol. probably part of their marketing scheme.
This is actually hilarious. I can imagine seeing headlines in varoius hacking sites about "XBOX 360 Hacking competition" or "XBOX 360 HACKED in less than 24 hours by John Doe!"
Erik Cohen @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
So it'll take 2 weeks instead of the usual one? There is no such thing as hacker-proof. If a human designed it, a human can break it. Next, there is no such thing as flawless code, first rule of programming. There will be a way in, there always is.
ericd @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
So they will do this for a gaming system and NOT Vista? WTF...
aaron @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
how long did it take to hack xbox and ps2?
snowpuff @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
Yes, if you're interested, this is the chief component of their new security technique:
http://snipurl.com/hljb
uclatommy @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
20 bucks says it'll be hacked within a month of release. Any takers? It'll be hacked just like their antipiracy MS Update stuff was hacked.
Tom @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
I think the best way to prevent widespread use of X-box 360 mod chips is probably the simplest. Just make the case incredibly hard to open.
Sure, the hardcore people will still be able to hack the X-box. Possibly a few brave souls will be willing to try installing a mod chip. But most people would be so fearful of damaging their machine that they would just avoid doing it.
CV @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
Even if a dolphin designed it, a human can break it.
austinkennethlee @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
them's fightin werds!
Imp @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
The best way is through a proprietary format. Since they aren't using one... I'm curious.
uclatommy @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
Or, they could just make all the components in the box spring loaded, so that when you open it, it explodes in a shower of electric components so that it would be nearly impossible to figure out how to put back together.
chilifries @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
uclatommy: best idea EVAR!
DaveHimself @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
Springloaded. That is definately the way to go. I love it.
I also remember seeing in cars that they would immerse the chips in epoxy or resign.
I like the idea of physical defenses. Probably because I know nothing about code.
GunForHire @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
Would it be possible to have some sort of EMP device put in with a capacitor, so that if the unit is opened without MS authorisation (eg, to mod), the EMP creating device would go off with the charge from the capacitor and frag all the components? I'm sure that could still be worked around, but it would definitely discourage people.
trmptblwr @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
Is it just me, or has Gamecube already proven to be the most hackproof...
Jason H @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
@15: The size of an EMP strong enough to fry ICs with RF and microwave would probably not fit in a standard Xbox360. Also, that would probably be asking for some serious lawsuitage... imagine if someone's pacemaker got fried or something.
An equivalent idea would probably just be a few inductance or circuit latches on the seams of the chassis that are connected to a battery powered circuit which can tell when the chassis is opened.
pableu @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
Springloaded would be great ;)
Or they could do everything in one huge chip where on one side, the signals from the optical drives and the controllers come in and on the other side, audio and video come out ;)
jazzay @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
why would you want to hack a gamecube? =P
PSP v2.0 is proving pretty unhackable as far as i know, i know some real good source code mamipulators and the like that are very frustrated with it, it will not run code that doesnt have a Sony Signiture, and theres no way of putting code that mimmicks sonys signiture because that code would have to have a Sony signiture to run, a dont get the full gist of it, but i do know they were having one hell of a time trying to run homebrew on v2.0
EMP would make people furious, striking every soul who beleives they should be able to do what they want with their purchase. Id go with the resign or epoxy coatings, doesnt seem like itd be all that hard, and its be a sure way to keep people from screwing around with the circuitry, just seems like other game systems out there are so easy to hack because its bare, visible circuitboard, if coated with black epoxy or something so that you cant see the circuitboard and you cant get to it, i dont see a way to mess with it, plus it would be a good way to avoid shorts from spills or dust buildup, and thats always good.
also, running circuitry across the break points of the x360 case so if its opened the circuitry is busted, sorta like when i opened up a PS2 for the first time and tore the wires going to power/eject buttons, except make more vital things go across
going off that idea, maybe a very thin, practically invisible wire going around the case over break points that if broken (by opening the case) itll just switch the console off, so after the hacker gets it all back together thinking he's successful it just doesnt turn back on, or even better turns on to a nice "Thank you for attempting to hack your xbox360, although we appreciate you helping us find security holes in the xbox OS, but we dont need your help. EMP will commense in 5...4...3...2...1." *zap*
geeker @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
Ha, you idiots. Microsoft wants you to hack the machine. This is the only way that they can learn to defend against it. Even Microsoft isn't foolish enough to believe a statement like that. Once someone hacks it, they'll send out a mandatory patch through Live, and since every Xbox 360 has a Live Silver account, you pretty much have to download it if you're online. Repeat the process, and they'll eventually have their hack-proof console. Think about it...
Osiris @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
Gamecube is definitely not the most hack proof.
In actual fact the XBOX was the apparently the most protected out of the 3, but because it's large fan base of techies, it was quickly hacked.
Just because the Gamecube was last to be hacked, does not mean it took the longest. Gamecube doesnt have such a large fan base of techies, and thus less people had that kind of interest in it.
This sounds like what one of the PSP reps said about the 2.0 Firmware, yet it is already pretty much hacked with the upcoming software such as downgraders from WAB.
Imp @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
The gamecube is hacked, it just takes a whole lotta effort and knowhow in oder to have a feed from your computer being run to the Gamecube and having that displayed on a TV.
James @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
I think you people should refer to the slashdot article on this subject. Most of the comments are the same too "Oh Microsoft wants it to be hacked!" "The Xbox 360 will be easy to hack!" blah blah blah. Same shit different pile!
JT Mill @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
Yeah, Windows XP was suposed to be hack proof too.
Mr Snickels @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
@ trmptblwr & Imp:
http://www.qoobchip.com/
Just burn the games on a DVDr, you can even use fullsize DVDs if you use a replacement case.
Raffi @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
I think what the line line means is that each xbox will have a randomly generated level of security or something, so that even if someone finds a way to crack their xbox it would be impossible to use the same method to crack another xbox. Something to that effect. But yes, they will be cracked eventually.
DaveHimself @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
hey geeker,
No-one has discussed whether or not MS "wants us" to hack it. I in fact think they expect it and love it to a degree. But jumping in and calling everyone idiots for discussing possibilities is not at all usefull.
Bill @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
foolish m$.
If it's a m$ product then it'll have more holes than a drilled out slice of swiss cheese.
I give the xbox 360 a month before it blown open with homebrew and pirated games running on it.
I know we'll be trying. Cheers Bill for another piece of well known hackable hardware. Check.
Jeramy @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
whoa, dude
he used a dollar sign when refering to microsoft
i've never seen anyone do that
cheers for originality points
YourNameHere @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
All of you talking about it destroying it by opening it . . . you've got the wrong idea. They would realize that it was destroyed when they opened it. The trick is to make it ruin itself when you try to close it back up. Maybe just a simple inconspicuous button that reset the memory or disabled something when it was sealed back up. That would have people scratching their heads for awhile.
Paul @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
What about Sony's Minidisc? That's never been hacked although many have tried...
John Bennet Ramsee @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
Right... b/c microsoft has been SO good at avoiding hacking in the first place. And I am "sure" that there won't be a magic mod chip out within the first few months. And it would be "impossible" to pirate the software. Give me a break. They are just asking for trouble. Only the big N has been pretty slick with avoiding the hacking scene and even then ALL nintendos stuff has been pirated. The GCN mini disk was actually a very very good idea. They did reap in alot of the profits and the average consumer knows nothing about hacking/modding anything.
Bill @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
Jeramy, get ur nose out of Bill's arse.
Iced_Eagle @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
LOL I think it would be awesome if to disable all the anti-hacking protective measures you just had to change a CVar.
cl_HackProof 0
Owned! :P
Bill @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
Jeramy, get ur nose out of Bill's arse.
David Russell @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
Tell it to all the people who have Linux running on their supposedly hack-proof Xbox 1s
delerious @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
Well, if you saw the colony.net video a India guy took the XB360 apart and then re-assembled it(I'm thinking...will disassembling the 360 void the warranty when it enters the market...probably). Then J. Allard talked about making the console yours, and wanting it to be yours. They kept flashing off the innards like they want you to mess around with it, WTF is up with that.
It'd be great if they had internal stuff you could do yourself, that way people could get their need to mess around with it with out voiding their warranties. That'd be a way to solve the problem, let the customer work with the system, but I don't see that coming any time soon corporations are too bitchy about their "rights" and other crap.
Gullop @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
Stupid title seen as he admitted it will get hacked someday.
John Bennet Ramsee @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
You know why you couldn't mechanically destroy it, b/c it would be a customer service nightmare. Imagine if you had to fix/refurbish an xbox 360 at the factory. No even if they did do this their would be a way to open it and replace the parts ect. ect. It will be hacked unless an irreversible chemical reaction takes place (like burning paper for example, but that would be a nightmare for the folks down at customer service.
Jason @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
maybe this is how ms plans to sell more xbox360 machines, challenging hackers haha.
brandon @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
xbox 360 has TPM thats why its so hard to hack. And the GUI & os for the 360 are both based on vista
ineo @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
why would anyne want to hack it?if you mean open it up, maybe its like the mac-mini...i still dont get why you would do that tjhough.
chris @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
i think that microsoft use these kind of statements to sell more concoles period...
the hacker mentalitly is if u say it cant be cracked then the cracker must crack it...
so even crackers will hae to buy consoles...
what next pirates paying for their own games?
vidGuy @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
Could there be a randomly routed startup signal, so you couldn't just drop a new chip in to bypass a validty check? I could see even that kind of process being "corrected" pretty easy.
If it has a harddrive, RAM, and a chip of any sort, it will be hacked to run any multitude of things.
I think making a process that ruins the box if it is opened is a horrible idea. I'm not renting the equipment, I bought the damn thing. I should be able to do whatever I want with my property. They have a right to code it to be un-hackable, but they shouldn't be able to prevent me from OPENING it.
Could you imagine if everything "blew up" if you tried to make it do something it wasn't specifically made to do?
birmingham @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
the wway microsoft releases security updates for windows....
AceMilo @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
LMAO @ emp. You need a nuclear explosion to create an emp, I don't think that'll swing with most ppl having a nuke in their living room. Anyway, smartxx has dev kits, I'm sure others do or will soon, and I'm sure they will find something within a year.
@ whoever said GC is unhackable, think again. I didn't buy one until it was hacked, then I got one used and chipped it and got a nice stack of mini-dvd's sittin here with the few good gc games.
REY2K7 @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
The Nintendo GameCube is more hack proof than this crap!
Lee Edwards @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
How many units does bill expect to sell if he makes it hack proof. Only the Good, best and easier to hack consoles make the grade in todays market. The more mod chips made the more units sold. The more units sold, 5 out of 10 will buy originals. i know i will buy them if there good enough.
Take the super nintendo. i would never have bought one in the 90`s if the famicon or wild card wasn't available. Bill wants more sold to beat sony.
Speaking of sony. Does anyone have a blue ray copier. or know the price of one. thats a good way to stop piracy. God how expensive. And the cell chip. How fast! How expensive!
Anyway. Xbox will grow larger than sony because of live. Who wants to "play with themselves" anymore when you can kick the crap out of someone else in another country instead
Cheerio
Hyena_The_Pirate @ Dec 18th 2005 9:51PM
LOL ah, microsoft.. i love you..
this is cute, seriously..
However, they know just as much as we do that true crackers and the 1337 will have their way with the x-box like they have every OTHER digital device. thats the beauty of technology.. it's always growing and ever changing, and can be manipulated.
What's even more beautiful about this 'statement' is that Microsoft has already 'embraced' the modding community (if you recall E3, they pretty much used this as a selling point to WHY the xbox will be superior to the PS3.. Sony = Hates hackers,crackers, mods, modding communities, skin designs, personalization, etc.. Microsoft = wants to appeal to personalization, media hubbing, and 13 year olds on xbox LIVE face mapping their pictures onto their Halo avatars..
or so they said..
However, i dont think Microsoft intends this to be a deterent to any truly 1337 hackers.. they even acknowledged that someone somewhere is eventually going to crack their box ANYWAY.. what they DID say was something very relevant and possibly very true: MY hacks wont work on EVERYONE's machine. so in essence, sure i can hack my 360 all day long.. but i wont be distributing any of MY hacks to anyone else, because it either wont work on someone else's machine or it will brick it. thats probably the best way to go, because in truth, it's not the hackers hacking their own boxes that cuts into profit margins.. it's when the mods and hacks become useable to the general public.. 1 or 2 people with hacked xbox's doesnt put even a scratch on Microsoft's bottom line.. 1 or 2 MILLION people who can easily download and run a hack program with little to NO computing experience (say your average 6 year old who doesnt have the maturity to even put up the pretense of understanding copyright laws.. all he knows is that 'mod/hack' = 'free games'.)
for example Kxploit for the psp.. thanks to this easy to run, easy to use 'made for the masses' program, ANY fool can run emus on his psp with NO understanding of even WHY it makes him able to in the first place.
the hacking of the 2.0 ver. firmware for the PSP? some say it has been done. others say it can NEVER be done. i prefer to believe it HAS been done, but what everyone is waiting for is someone ELSE to come around with a tidy little 'for everybody' program that you just click and run and wham! homebrew on your 2.0 psp (or downgraded or bypassed, or updated or what have you). this is what the companies fear. they dont fear "cyber-hacker-Bob" in Who-do, Wisconsin; They fear "cyber-hacker-Bob"'s easy to use PSP 2.0 homebrew hacker that consists of easy to follow instructions that little sally and little sam in the backwoods of Tennessee can easily download from a thousand mirror sites, install and run in a matter of moments, even though they know little to nothing about computer programming or sciences.
Bottom Line scallywags: The xbox 360 will be hacked. probably within DAYS of release.
however, people will be waiting a long while for a hack, if one ever arises, or a mod that the average consumer can download and use on THEIR xbox at home.
oh, and just for those who have said the 2.o cant be hacked, technically it already has.. or at least partially: Sony recently filed suit against a UK man who has already claimed (or has done so) to have created a mod chip that can downgrade your firmware or bypasses it at will. of course they've done everything but have him assassinated to stop him from distributing it, but the point is he's done it.
if you want to learn more, i suggest you google it, as i'm too lazy to actually provide a link to the story. besides, i'm sure it's everywhere by now...
Set course for the grand line, mateys. it be troubled seas ahead for the modding community, but Cap'n Hyena is ready to brave these new digital seas with me stalwart crew of cyber-rogues. arrr, it's gonna be a good year for the privateer!