Kojima interacts in real-time with MGS4 trailer at TGS

Real-time to me means more than manipulating a 3D model. To me it means playing the damned game with that model.

I'm not saying you won't be able to, but it is rather fishy that they would present a demo like this as proof that you could.

It's like trying to prove that a human can throw a boulder at 100MPH by showing that a human can through a baseball at 100 MPH.

Excatlty what i was thinking chnaging the lighting doesnt show much if they had him being controlled through a demo level i would believe it

Controlling the lighting and such is a great example of real-time manipulation of the engine. The control scheme comes later. It's all about the engine and what the hardware can render in real time. The other SPUs can be used for AI, control, sound, etc., so that shouldn't effect the speed of the rendering engine.

Being skeptical is a good thing.

It's useful when somebody tells you somebody else has weapons of mass destruction.
And it's useful when Sony claims anything.

This being said, you, #1 and #2, sound like two Microsoft fanboys in complete denial. :)

Most of what makes these trailers look amazing is the animation... not just the fact that the models are good. Moving around a stationary face tells nothing about how well the animation is. I don't want the feet of my characters sliding all over the place in the next gen... that's what angers me about this generation. No one's feet ever stay planted, and the animations dont' flow well at all. (most noticable in madden, and fighting games).

im in a ninty fanboy :p i dont like Ms >.<

its just i dont believe everything i see especially tech specs cuz we know how that ends up

Man Xbox fanboys are the worst, reminds me of the Sega fanboys back in the Genesis/SNES days.

Anyway, what is impressive about this trailer is NOT the animation (we had great animation in all MGS cutscenes before), but the quality of the in-game graphics, especially the character's details and facial expressions as well as the superbe lighting and the massive usage of particles to make smoke, dirt, and flying debris, all in real-time. THAT is what made this trailer very impressive.

All I wondered in that clip was what they were using to control it.

And also, this made me ponder

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/3/ps3abbuttons5fj.jpg

Sony changed the buttons? or are there two new ones coming?

All I wondered in that clip was what they were using to control it.

And also, this made me ponder

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/3/ps3abbuttons5fj.jpg

Sony changed the buttons? or are there two new ones coming?

Joystiq seems to have quite a few Nintendo and Microsoft fanboys.

You should thank Sony for "maturing" the game industry.

If not for Sony, we would all be stuck with childish Nintendo crap.

Just for the record, I own a PS2 and an XBOX. Also, I used to own a NES and SNES.

The point of this demonstration is to prove that it's not CGI.

Manipulation of the IN GAME PARAMETERS resulting in the "on the fly" output is a perfect demonstration. It is not only a testament to the hardware, but to the game engine itself. I give high kudos to Konami, NOT SONY, for developing such a trailer.

From the first two comments above, Project Gotham Racer is fishy as there is no real in game footage. It stands to reason that all screens that bizzare has posted are CGI.

"Joystiq seems to have quite a few Nintendo and Microsoft fanboys."

That was quite evident from the recent polls. The Xbox users here far outnumber other console users.

I don't think Nintendo is quite childish, GoldenEye was one of the best FPS of any console, even to this day in terms of playability. And the SNES version of Mortal Kombat 2 was the best console version due to graphic detail. It's just that Nintendo knows it doesn't have to have blood and guts to sell games.

Fanboys are funny.

Stages of fanboy craziness.

1) First they say "that can't be Real-Time...it's CGI!!! SONY LIED!!! OMG!!! XBOX LIVE Roxorz!!!111oneoneone!!11" Despite all evidence to the contrary, fanboys also have no problem stomping all over the flawless reputation of one of the greatest creators in the history of gaming (Kojima) to make this "point," and suggest that he is lying, as well.

2) When that assertion is proved to be absolutely wrong they say "Oh, it doesn't look that great, look at those jaggies" which is funny, because they were the same fools who said it looked like a cut scene and "too good to be true" in the first place!

3) Now, we have a new breed of fanboy. When proven to be real-time, with the absolute proof of a LIVE DEMO, they say "Oh, that's not "real-time" TO ME."

WTF? Oh, so *you* get to decide the established definition of real-time, now?

The definition of real-time rendering was established long ago, by people whose opinions actually matter because they have worked in the business and have innovated the art/craft of graphics.

I wonder, what great contributions fanboys #1 and #2 have made to the graphics/gaming industry that enables them to suddenly redefine what "real-time" means?

In this case, saying "Real-time to me means..." just means "I don't know what the heck I'm talking about."

The established definition of "real-time graphics" are graphics that are changeable "on-the-fly" through user input with a nominal delay.

Since Kojima's group demonstrated the above conditions, (through changing perspectives, scale, depth-of-field, lighting direction, ect.) those graphics are, by any established definition of the term, "real-time."

You can't change the definition of an established term just because you don't like it all the sudden.

Or maybe you can. Maybe some fools here will believe what fanboys #1 and #2 have said here, rather than what Kojima and his team (and the entire industry for that matter,) on the subject of what "real-time" means. Then again, some fools here might go to their plumber to find out the definition of "massive cardiac arrest," or to their dry cleaner to ask about income tax deductions.

"And the SNES version of Mortal Kombat 2 was the best console version due to graphic detail. It's just that Nintendo knows it doesn't have to have blood and guts to sell games."

That part about graphic detail is probably correct (hey, I only owned a Genesis), but the SNES version sold terribly in relation to the Genesis version because they left out the blood and guts. Those sales numbers probably had a lot to do with Nintendo loosening its strict censorship of game content (and not just the bloody and violent stuff).

But yeah, I try to love Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, and Sega alike. Which system you prefer generally comes down to which games you like to play, however.

Why does snake looks too old? Smoking too much ciga did that to
him. He looks like he's about to die from a lung cancer. He needs to see a doctor now. Fanboy or not, this demo is lame.

Hai I have to agree with MuddBogger here.. I have an Xbox and a playstation but I will always be a sony fan.. but that's beside the point. Real-time graphics aren't easy to do. That's what makes this game a really incredible game to look at. I hate it when people go and criticize games like that.. imagin if I had said. Oh they say halo 3's gonna kick as but I dun believe that's gonna happen just cause I say. Now that would be being Bias... much like Fanboy's #1 and #2.

First of all even sony accepted that they used a trick while showcasing killzone video to impress people (speeding up from 5fps to 30 fps and calling it realtime)so lets not even go there again.

Secondly i dont think most people argue wheter the msg4 trailer its realtime or not(since in the opening of the trailer producers clearly wants viewers to know that its not cg)The thing is its not in-game,there is no actual game engine running behind it(which takes most of system resources in an actual game)meaning its no different from ati's or ndivida's graphical demos , there is no gurantee that the game will ook like that when it comes out,its just good realtime cinematics at this point.

As an example capcom recently said when resident evil comes out, the main character in the actual game wont look as detailed as the the one in the trailer that was shown a month ago since the trailer used the source model (which used million polys on the main chracter alone) an using same model in real game would be an ovelkill

Dan Choi, you are totally right.

(and I've gotta admit, I bought the Genesis version of MK. You can't have MK without the GORE, can you?)

; )

For this semantical argument of the word "realtime", suffice it to say, this is goddamn impressive. The perspective you you need to have is that graphics rendering takes up most of your system resources, so the difference between practice(realtime gameplay) and demo(realtime graphics) is negligible, especially when you factor in the proportional increase in power upon PS3 release...we're talking 8 months from now. The machine is not final by any stretch, but it can be ascertained what the final performance WILL be.

When working with the Unreal3.0 engine, we're given a 'projection of performance' to work towards, as none of our machines(3.4ghz P4, 2 gigs ram, 6800GTw/256megs) can even run it well on any resolution above 640x480, and this is just with a small environ or a couple characters. This engine brings my rather fast machine to its knees. We have to guess, again, based on this projection, and this is why Gears of War and the next-gen machines sheer power is so awesome.

You guys can settle in and enjoy the ride, as that IS representative of what you'll be playing next year, and its going to be incredible.

"First of all even sony accepted that they used a trick while showcasing killzone video to impress people (speeding up from 5fps to 30 fps and calling it realtime)so lets not even go there again."

The demo was rendered on a PS3 -> alpha <- dev kit. The hardware they used is far from the final PS3. If you think that a 'trick' then... whatever man. Deal with it, ignore the 'tricks' and move on... but please, stop it. No one cares, really.

Who cares about any of this? I just want to know what the hell the deal is with the Patriots...

Heh, Rhine, I see you post here at Joystiq along with the Nintendo forums :D
Anyways, looks pretty neat, but geriatric snake looks sort of dumb. How did he age so fast? I thought this was only a few years after MGS2?

The "supposed" real-time trailer said it was 10 years after, and he is smoking again. So that might answer your question, BlackYoshi.

People are speculating that his DNA is degrading, or that his age accelerating is in overdrive. Remember, Liquid snake said the DNA used to Clone "Les enfants terribles" were ancient. Obviously sampled late in Big Boss' life. It was mentioned in the first metal gear they were doomed. So we are seeing snake in his twilight years as a result. This will be the last episode with Solid Snake, as a lot of people are speculating.

It would be a bad idea to make this the last "episode". As the fact that the realistic graphics engines are finally on their way.

I expect a "rebirth" of solid snake. Or maybe, possibly a new snake? It would be a rough start to make a new snake, but the fans would most likely dive into the idea.

BTW, most of you may have noticed I have not yet bashed this game for it being a "Sony exclusive".

That is because, now that I have 90% of what next-gen can do (still waiting to see sony's online), I am putting it all more into consideration.

I will be least likely to get a revolution as I am a bit disappointed of the controller. As it is a great idea, it is not what I am looking for.

I have as of late been looking forward to the Xbox360, except for the fact that I feel it will be too much for Microsoft to handle. I have a feeling they are going to be using the ability of the PC a little too much. And end up just making the future of the Xbox, a meer PC addon.

As for good ol' Sony. My PS2 has treated me well, and it has not broken down as of yet. I have had my issues, but who hasn't? My friend still can't play his Xbox, as it is having disc-read issues.

At this moment, I intend on getting a PSP for my birthday / christmas, and save up to get a PS3 when it's release comes. I have seen all I have to see for the PS3 (MGS4, UT2K7, Sonic, KZ2, MotorStorm, Killing Day, etc). And that, so far, is more then I need. Even though Ken Kutaragi may not call it a console, it feels like more console then anything in competition.

The PSP will always look like a video put into a box, I mean that in the best way possible. It seems to have the most ability and compatibility on the handheld market.

I apologize to anyone who I may pissed off by bashing Sony's ideas, and now you may call me a dumbass, or say its about time.

I just watched the video but I'm not quite sure what I'm seeing. I say this to highlight the fact that no one has a clue what they are seeing. I am simply going to reserve my judgement on the PS3 until I see a kiosk in a store.

There is no point in being a cynic or a wishful thinker - because both of those positions require you to have _something_ to base your opinion off of. Currently, regarding the PS3, there is _nothing_ to base your opinion off of.

Have any of you played a real PS3 game yet? No. (And please, spare us the phony developer commentary - if the general public hasn't seen it, it doesn't exist. period.)

For all we know, the "realtime" demonstration of MGS4 is done inside a skybox with a single character on screen. This would mean that the demo offers literally no insight into how the final game will look.

We also don't know how much of the realtime demo used pre-rendered animated sprites (a VERY common trick in non-interactive sequences - and by interactive I mean you have the ability to view every object in the scene from virtually any angle).

We also don't know whether the physics are pre-calculated or not. For all we know, this demo is GPU bound - and this is an extremely significant piece of information.

Now, I'm no MS/Sony/N fanboy, I'm just a casual gamer who isn't out to prove one system is superior over the other. I'm simply trying to point out that there isn't enough information in the field yet to justify getting your hopes up.

Here's an interesting quote:

"graphics rendering takes up most of your system resources, so the difference between practice(realtime gameplay) and demo(realtime graphics) is negligible..."

No? First off, that simply isn't a true statement. Traditionally most games are CPU bound, not GPU bound. Games will use more complex pixel shaders, but they will also be using far more complex game logic, ai, and physics.

Even if you make the argument that games are becoming more gpu bound (which would completely negate Sony's rationale for cell...), the last part of your statement is still nonsense. A demo that cuts every possible corner for the sake of graphic quality tells us nothing about how a full game would run. Why? Because a game is several orders of magnitude more complex than a demo.

To further illustrate my point, let me list the following corners that they more than likely cut for this demo:

* Pre-calculated (per frame) transformations for all objects in the game.

* Pre-calculated animation/physics for all

* Pre-calculated viewing frustum and potentially visible set of data. (i.e. they are guaranteeing an incredibly low level of overdraw)

* Pre-rendered sprites. This means any time the camera is still there isn't a reason to render even close objects as full geometry. Instead, they pre-render the geometry to a texture set, and render them on sprites.

* Skybox everything - anything even remotely far away (low parallax shift) is just a texture

The list goes on and on. As you can see, moving a light around or changing the color/shader of an object is a trivial realtime operation.

So what am I saying? Nothing. I'm merely pointing out some of the possibilities and unknowns here to highlight the fact that no one can really say anything. I have no doubt that all of the next generation consoles will be tremendous successes, and I hope that we are treated to the very best visuals possible. But there is no point in jumping from bandwagon to bandwagon as long as you're only seeing the faces of the card that the dealer wants you to.

0.02

Excellent comparison #1

I agree with what you said.

Sony has and always will be full of shit. Not saying anythings wrong with their consoles. The PS2 was good. Just dont go believing this is real time gameplay. Microsoft has playable, tangible versions of its games in Tokyo right now.

Until we see the same from Sony I dont wanna hear anything out of their mouths about how powerful and CG like its games are. Remember this is coming from a company that touted Toy Story type graphics on the PS2, has anything even came remotely close to that? I think not. Remember the demo Sony showed of an old man where you could see every individual wrinkle on his face? I do, now did we ever see that on PS2? Absolutely not.

Microsoft doesnt blow smoke your ass, Sony does. I am hoping though that this will be the real gameplay for MGS4 but get real people, if you believe that then pass me some of that crack pipe your smoking. Sony has a way with words, listen carefully to what their doing, theyre saying that the "TRAILER" for MGS4 can run in real time.

In my defense I just like to look at games and dont care about the graphics i just dont like ppl boasting numbers becuase choke points exist >.<

and thats about it for my knowledge on how graphics work go me :D

CB4D, do you have anything to back up your claims?

I am not afraid to say that graphics are a huge part of what I look for in a game. I hate playing MS-Dos games, but I love playing Half-Life 2. Does that make me a bad person?

When are we going to see some playable PS3 games? At E3 they said at the TGS, well its here. No playable PS3 Yet. Im getting the 360, but i want the other two as well. I just want to see some real games. WIth people playing real levels. All I got our of the TGS is a remote control and some nice video. I want to have hands on.

CB4D thus far is completely off-the-mark as far as Kojima's real-time trailers are concerned. Every real-time trailer Kojima has ever done has taken place in the actual in-game enviroment the player plays in. This has been true for MGS1, MGS2, and MGS3. Historically, and by means of Kojima's word, this MGS4 trailer is no different. Just another skeptic disguised as giving an indifferent, unbiased opinion.

CBD4 = Bill O'Reilly

"No Spin Zone" my ass.

I agree with ROG27, these are real-time _trailers_.

Secondly, I admit to being a skeptic. I am consistently skeptical of all media released by all of the major players in this industry, because time and time again the marketing media fails to live up to reality. What's wrong with being skeptical? I would rather be skeptical than naiive and misled. :/

Further, the environment into which all 3 of the next generation consoles is being launched is unlike any before. Sony/MS/Nintendo are doing many things the same, but they are also doing many things different. The stakes are higher, so I wouldn't necessarily use the past as any indication of the future.

Please re-read my above comment to understand that I never criticized Kojima's efforts, or the quality of the video. I merely pointed out that it sheds literally no light on the final state of MGS4, or the power of the PS3.

*sigh*

@CBD4:

First off, friend, the operative words to my quoted "interesting comment" is SYSTEM RESOURCES. Did you know that the GPU is a part of the same SYSTEM as the CPU? Regardless of juggling the words or concepts around to fit an argument, graphics are the major load on any system, period. With our fancy multi-core processors on the horizon, we can definitely see a shift towards increased CPU usage for AI and physics, but either way, graphics are the major strain. While canned graphics demos(Nvidia) are the pinnacle of power/performance display and not a measurment of graphics achievable in a gameplay environment, they still tout the performance of the graphics subsystem, and are not drastically different than what can be achieved in the gameplay environment.



"* Pre-calculated (per frame) transformations for all objects in the game."

Huh? By the nature of the word "realtime", all transforms are calculated on the fly...I have no idea what you are talking about.



"* Pre-calculated animation/physics for all"

Same as above. While arguably yes, physics can be baked to keyframes, animation is still realtime or its prerendered, as by its nature, is 'pre-calculated' and played back in realtime. I never heard of 'non-precalculated' animation except for the biomechanical IK driven dinosaur animation from Trespasser, which were calculated on the fly.



* Pre-calculated viewing frustum and potentially visible set of data. (i.e. they are guaranteeing an incredibly low level of overdraw)

This isn't even necessary to mention, as while you'd be correct for a canned realtime demo, occlusion culling (hardware especially) is so prevalent, overdraw is minimized extensively. While I'm not going to argue against them artificially controlling their 'objects in view', I don't see it as significantly impacting performance enough to drastically alter what the final product would like over this demo.




"* Pre-rendered sprites. This means any time the camera is still there isn't a reason to render even close objects as full geometry. Instead, they pre-render the geometry to a texture set, and render them on sprites."


This is known as 'image caching', where distant objects are rendered once to texture then mapped to a billboard culled from the bounding volume of the object in screenspace, and updated infrequently based on the cameras distance and angle to the source. Again Trespasser and I believe Farcry are the only known games(at least that I'm aware of) that utilize this, so I dont see it being an optimization they'd use here, BUT, it IS an optimization, therefore if they did use it, so what?




"Have any of you played a real PS3 game yet? No. (And please, spare us the phony developer commentary - if the general public hasn't seen it, it doesn't exist. period.)"

I don't even know how to take this? While I may not have touched a PS3, I am developing on next-gen tech, the same next-gen tech that was run on the proposed PS3 platform at the E3. Regardless of the performance capabilities of the PS3, I DO know the projected expected performance of the U3 engine on these platforms. If you want to dismiss that and call me phony to strengthen your position, more power to you, I'm not trying to impress anyone with my pedigree or deceive anyone for personal gain. Rather, you can take it for what its worth, and that I can at least offer some insight as to what you have all been seeing regarding next-gen graphics. I do find it interesting you were compelled to call me phony, rather arbitrarily I might add. Is this defensive in some form? Why would this incite such a reponse?

Fanboy this...
Fanboy that...

Who cares?

Regardless of which of the big three i happen to like the most (Ninny, if you must know) This trailer is amazing because of (but not limited to)the lifelike graphics and facial-features and the absolutely unbelievable art direction and camera work that acompanies any of Hideo Kojima's games.

What's the point of declaring loyalty to a company if it obstructs your view of what is obstensively art?

Just watch the movement of the camera, work on par with that of award winning hollywood cinematographers! The way it pans and zooms; calling attention to minute details such as the rebar coming out of a wartorn building... Why does this incite an "I love XXXXXX hardware manufacturer thread???

I'm sorry, the flamewars are just to much for me...

#'s 1 - 34: You are all "fanboys" in your own right and in the most derogatory sense of the word.

"#'s 1 - 34: You are all 'fanboys' in your own right and in the most derogatory sense of the word."

Ouch. In the most derogatory sense of the word?

"But yeah, I try to love Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, and Sega alike. Which system you prefer generally comes down to which games you like to play, however."

That's what I said in comment #13, and I stand by it. If you claim that the flame wars are too much for you, why start another one? I felt that your comment was on-target otherwise, but try to avoid making those kinds of generalizations. That's really loading up on the flame bait. =(

A lot of you are finding it easy to slap the "fanboy" label on everyone, when many times, including myself, we're simply admiring production quality from a quality production company. In fact, my comments have been geared towards the video specifically, extending only to the fact that everyone will be impressed with the best games any system, including the PC, will have to offer in 2006...that next-gen can and will look this good on all the platforms.

Who here isn't genuinely impressed with Gears of War? MGS4 (metal gear period rather) has the art direction and refined skill of a masterpiece, while GOW is brute force sexy and powerful, which makes MGS appear to be that much 'more' than the next game, but GOW is still doing an IMMENSE amount of detail and graphic fidelity that it is no less impressive pound for pound.

Hell if my commenting regarding the Revo controller isn't clue enough, I state that I want all three systems to be awesome and continue to be successful as that only means more games for me.

Too bad for you if you can only afford one system...thats a tough choice to make. :P

Gametrailers.com has direct feed (downloadable) version up. Link below.

http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=7654&type=wmv

The thing I've noticed about Sony's demos is that there is practically no environment to speak of. The boxing demo and now MGS4. Even on yesterday's consoles you can make amazing looking characters if they're the only things on the screen.

This leaves me a bit skeptical. Of course, being skeptical can be a good thing. It leaves me this way for two reasons: first, like many have said, they're practically manipulating lighting on a character model. Second, what happens when the complete game is finished. Once you have all the characters incorporated, all the animations, lighting effects and so on. That starts to take up CPU power. It's a lot easier to focus most or all of the "CPU power" on one character model. Not that I'm saying this is the case. It would have been better to have shown them playing around with the game. Controlling the character. Like what Nintendo did with their "Mario 128 demo" before the GameCube was released.

Thanks for the tip, Ruari. The update's been posted.

"It would be a bad idea to make this the last "episode". As the fact that the realistic graphics engines are finally on their way.

I expect a "rebirth" of solid snake. Or maybe, possibly a new snake? It would be a rough start to make a new snake, but the fans would most likely dive into the idea."

-- I think they will rebirth snake. On the first MGS4 trailer (the funny one) it did say "A new platform for Hideo and SEEDS"

hmmm...

#41 Sean: You must not have seen the first and last parts of the presentation. The environments are actually very rich. Look at the outdoor scenes...they're full of buildings, Loooong draw-out in the distance with zero pop-up. Look at the individual litlle pieces of paper getting kicked up by the column of troops martching with the tank and mech...they have their opwn physics! There's tons of debris flying all over the place in 3-dimentions, with tons of particle effects (like the blowing dust) all over the environment. Look again if you got the mistaken impression that those environments were stark.

Mathew #42: After the two big presentations on opening day, EA gave a talk about next-gen development to Japanese developers. I think Microsoft will be pissed when they find out that the 360 wasn't mentioned by the EA guy. What they said about the PS3 should make you less skeptical though:

"Some of the most interesting footage and information came at the end of the piece, when Young talked about the latest iteration of the Medal Of Honor series for PlayStation 3, currently in development at EA Los Angeles. He revealed that, while still early in development, the PS3 version of the game was already fill-rate bound, leaving 4 SPUs of the PlayStation 3 ready to be used for code-powered effects such as physics, particles, AI, and so on.

He also advanced his theory that, while only 20% of the processing power would be used for processes other than rendering in the current generation, as much as 50% would be available for AI, physics, and other such tasks in the next generation. This would hopefully lead to a much more sophisticated experience that isn't just better graphics running on a similar codebase"

...

The rest of the article is here:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=6552

Reading these comments, I just wanna say you guys are too skeptical to accept things you don't support.
Do you remember "Killzone 2" trailer? And every Xbox supporter did their best to make everyone believe it is pre-rendered. It was disgusting to see them discrediting honest developers. But now, hey, look at MGS4 real-time performance on TGS. Both appeared to be genuine. I think Kojima knows nobody believed Killzone2 trailer at E3, that's why he is demonstrating like this. It surely looks far better than any other game we see on Xbox360/PS3...
"It isn't gameplay?". No way, this game is still early development. Still it was more than enough to surprise me since his team has made this art piece in such a short term.

Hilarious: In the middle of a demonstration for the 'cutting edge' of gaming, you hear a snippit of the Pac-Man theme.

The direct feed trailer is list as "up" on the official website. But i have yet to have any luck streaming the video.

And in Kojima fashion, it's in wmv format. :(

Oops, sorry for double post, lloks like Rauri beat me to it. But I still want a better quality version!

Thanks for the link Joel, interesting read.

Another great animation, but no gameplay