A Lair of next-gen assets for PS3
by Alan Rose 
{ Oct 10th 2005 at 3:30PM }
The Bay Area chapter of the International Game Developer's Assoc. held their latest meeting at the Sony Metreon in San Francisco last week. The subject: Dragons! Designer and technical art director Matthias Worch was on hand to discuss both the digital and physical modeling techniques his team at Factor 5 is using for Lair, a next-gen exclusive for PS3. Using a combination of 3D rendering and maquette modeling (with help from Dragonheart modeler Peter Konig), Worch hopes to build the perfect beast - and provide gamers with dragons who sport 5 million triangles and more than ten textures of fire-breathing power!
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Not Impressed (Dmitri) @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
ARM THE 360 FANBOY SHIELDS!!!
Night Walker @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
Excellent, I'll be keeping a very close eye on this one.
And 5 Million each, wow.
b @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
Lol, dmitri, I just clicked on here and I wanted to say something like that first. I was gonna say:
*drums*"Let the fanboy war begin"*drums*
Not Impressed (Dmitri) @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
10 textures of fire breathing power. Thats pretty weird. I usually see about 3 in games with flamethrowers and such.
BoB @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
Shut up Dmitri....
Factor 5 know how to make good looking games, just look at rogue leader on the Cube.
Not Impressed (Dmitri) @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
Great minds think alike, b. Lol.
Not Impressed (Dmitri) @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
BoB what the fuck are you talking about. I wasn't dissing Factor 5. I was actually complementing them, douche.
SickNic @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
I'm kinda done with hyping games that are early in developement, I've used up all my energy hyping stuff. When i read some hands on previews, I will start to get interested again. This game sounds sweet though, we need more dragon games.
BoB @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
I didn't say you were, there was 4 full stops and a line between "Shut up Dmitri" and the Rest of my comments.
Lyke OMG! You Douche!11!!1!!one!!1
b @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
BoB, he was talking about how 360 fanboys are gonna say "BULLSHIT THE 360 HAS UNIFIED PIPELINES LOL"
Not Impressed (Dmitri) @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
OHZ NO!> TEH R TAUKING ABOOT TEH PS3! ATTTTTTAAAAAAAAAACKKKKK!!!!!
MILES @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
What ever happened to the Smart people?
I just hope this game is more about content and not so much about Graphics like Rogue squadron 2 and 3.
Matt @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
it might look like 5 million polys, but that's from normal mapping. It'll actually have between 5-10k, I'd guess.
kuroshi @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
The key quote is "hopes". It doesn't say he has or even go as far as will. We still have to wait and see. Besides he is baised (Major nelson, Itagaki, etc). His game is PS3 exclusive so not exactly an unbaised opinion as many of you so kindly pointed out in the past. By the way I'm also not impressed. It still won't look as good as MGS4 LOL.
ROG27 @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
actually no...read the article...those are normal-mapped models dithered from 5 million polygons each to 100,000 to 170,000 polygons each....with up to 10 layers of texturing each.
Sure kicks the pants off of gears of war's measly 10,000 polys per normal mapped character.
Innovate Me @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
The only "next-gen" looking game out there is MGS4(Metal Gear Solid 4). With the exception of MGS4, I don't find any of these games to be "next-gen" in terms of graphics. The developers had beter blow people away with it's outstanding gameplay if it has it.
Eddy @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
Whats is the difference between 5 million polygons and 5 million traiangles? Which one is better. Post 14 is making things unclear.
ROG27 @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
a polygon (in terms of 3d modeling) is 2 dimensional shape which shares its vertices with an adjacent 2 dimensional shape in 3d space to create an object with the illusion of depth (ie a 3 dimensional object). A triangle is the simplest of 2 dimensional shapes because it has 3 sides which close it in. 2 sides gives you an angle, or a vertex. one side is a line. And a point is a point. Simple geometry. So, a polygon must be composed of 3 or more sides (ie. triangle, square, pentagon, hectagon, heptagon, octagon, etc. approaching a perfectly round cirlce). Because 3 sided shapes (triangles) are the most broken down in terms of simplicity of calculations (algorithms) the CPU/GPU must perform in order to compute its relative placement in 3d space, the 3d modeler usually makes more complex polygons out of a multitude of simpler polygons such as triangle.
EastCoaster @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
All triangles are polygons.
All polygons are not triangles.
A polygon is a closed plane figure bounded by three or more line segments.
A three line polygon would be a triangle.
Navims @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
I'm with you Miles. Great graphics dont translate into great games. So dont hold your breath, for all we know at this point is this could be another Fire Reign but on a PS3. Oh, and on the side note. PS3 like 360 and REV will have poor games at one time or another. Graphics should be the last thing anyone brings up on the next generation games. Incredible graphics are just the price of admission. But if there is no great show, then who is going to spend 50+ to play them? Because they will all be in high definition, and will have insane amount of polys and the effects will be there, they will look awesome. Follow me? But ultimately they will be failures because developers are not focusing on the "game" but on its "looks". Lets see how Factor5 molds this one.
prooie @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
I choose not to care about the PS3 until they demo playable versions of the games somewhere and give a shipping date and price. And if they don't do that before the 360 ships I'll likely buy that one and Sony is out of the race.
JPRacer @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
[quote] ROG27 : "2 sides gives you an angle, or a vertex" [/quote]
A vertex is a point, just a point...
Modeling is easier to do with rectangles (4 sides polygon) but most 3d engines only render triangles, but the conversion is not very hard to do, since rectangle are just two triangles that share a side. nGon, name use by Softimage that imply polygons with more than 4 sides are almost never used.
Arch-360 @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
triangles are not the same as polygons. expect the dragons to be composed of 15-20k polygons.
and rog 27 the reason gears of war has only 10k is because the UE3 engine is able to scale down poly counts and amke them look just as good. that goes for every game that uses it.
Phong @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
Seriously you have to tell me, Dimitri, b, ROG27, OTAM, Arch-360... do you guys whack off to this stuff?
Arch-360 @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
no not really but since you took the time to sign up and post i guess you do too.
metal_gear_jello @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
"triangles are not the same as polygons. expect the dragons to be composed of 15-20k polygons."
3D polygons are often composed of triangles (as they are still polygons); the following is a quote from wikipedia.
"This step is used in polygon-based rendering, where objects are broken down from abstract representations ("primitives") such as spheres, cones etc, to so-called meshes, which are nets of interconnected triangles.
Meshes of triangles (instead of e.g. squares) are popular as they have proven to be easy to render using scanline rendering."
Found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_computer_graphics
Under "Tesselation and Meshes" header.
Dmitri, I don't think you raised the shields fast enough. I'm kicking in the auxiliary power!
The fanboy ignorance is just too much!
Phong @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
^
I *knew* I forgot someone...
ROG27 @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
I love how arch-360 gets all defensive about Gears of War...
Just face it...the Lair engine's models are 10 to 17 times more detailed than the Gears of War Models-period...It's okay because they are different game engines...Unreal 3 is a more flexible, less optomized engine for multiple platforms...Factor 5's Lair engine is being specifically built to harness the power of PS3. That being said...higher polygon count models have the capacity to be animated better because of the possibility of more joints. Whoever said the polygon war was over (ATI-MS) sorely misjudged the reality of the next-gen situation. High-poly count models and physics will own this generation's "wow" factor and actually add to the fluency and immersiveness of gameplay...unlike the added graphical flair afforded by better pixel shaders alone. This is why XBOX360 games (thusfar) have just looked like flashier versions of this generation's games.
Sean @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
"Sure kicks the pants off of gears of war's measly 10,000 polys per normal mapped character."
Except that Gears of War has an actual environment, rather than an empty skybox.
Pretty easy to make impressive looking characters when your entire environment consists of 6 textured polygons.
DICE @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
wow the ps3 is a beast and this things are done on the beta kits i can only imagine how much better they would get on a final devkit.. its gonna be eye poppin.... this surely seems to make the 360 obsolete.. not a fanboyish comment but the true one...and whoever thinks other wise is a fool..
Innovate Me @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
I have no choice, but to respect your comment #30 or DICE. We have our differences, but if you think that the PS3 is a beast(in a good way) then I should not try to come lashing out at you. Believe me, it's hard for me to say this because I am a fanboy of Nintendo. Anyway, if it was a fanboyish comment or not, I respect it.
Now, my opinion is the same as last time. The only "next-gen" graphics that I have seen so far is Metal Gear Solid 4. Who knows, maybe this game will be more fun than MGS4.
ROG27 @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
who said that Lair doesn't have environments?...just because they are flying in the sky in the trailer doesn't mean there are no environments...in fact...the dragon is sitting atop a mountain in the beginning of the trailer. I fully expect there to be environments, as well.
DICE @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
#31
ur post opinion is greatly appreciated... its all good...
CrAzY American @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
Maybe the reason mgs4 looks good is cuz it pre rendered (don't tell me sony said its real, we all no its not). And stop comparing this game to other games.
Gears of war looks amazing as does this.
Everyone was raggin on PDZ, and everyone who has seen it (in real life, not a download on your comp) say it looks amazing.
My point, get xcited bout games, but don't shit talk bout other systems to make you feel better.
(and whoever talked bout the engines, good point)
b @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
Phong:
Yeah
b @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
Arch360:
"triangles are not the same as polygons. expect the dragons to be composed of 15-20k polygons."
A triangle is a polygon.
Poly = Many
Gon = Side
A triangle is a "Trigon", a particular case of a polygon. Perhaps you meant "polyhedron". So this guy is right, 5 million triangles are 5 million polygons, if only by definition. Not his problem if he is misinterpreted.
"and rog 27 the reason gears of war has only 10k is because the UE3 engine is able to scale down poly counts and amke them look just as good. that goes for every game that uses it."
That doesn't make any sense. Explain us how can less polygons look better than more.
gamer @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
mgs4 is real you asshole get your head out of bills ass
CrAzY American @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
haha...real yeah ...
There still half a year away from launch, and a year away from that game, and you say they're doing that? Sure
I want it, and HOPE it looks like that.
And you git ur mouth off ken's dick.
Arch-360 @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
i find it funny that people actually are comparing 2 d objects to 3d. we are all missing something. and fanboyinsh comments saying thatt he 360 is obsolete are just patheitc. this is IMPOSSIBLE. for one model to have 1.5 million polygons. understand that people. impossible. a difference of 1.5 to 10k is extremely unlkely. where do the rest of the polys go? no walls? no landscape? just dragons? it makes no sense ill say it again. we are missing something. its impossible that the difference in poly count for the 2 systems top be this widely gaped. if this were true than the 360 is not even a next gen system at all. neither is the rev. the PS3 would be PS5. same way the makers of gengi said that the face of their main carahcter was ocmposed of 1.5 million triangles. you guys are jumping to conclusions.
Arch-360 @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
whoa! wait a second i just read it again! 5 MILLION??!!?!?!! WTF. now someone is lying. unless there is no landscape at all, this is impossible. or just plain CG.that would make more sense if they meant that the CG models were composed of that many. not when you play it. this is I.M.P.O.S.S.I.B.L.E.
DICE @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
#39
look my friend its very possible, u see the thing was done in real time.. with the ps3 i think its very possible to have that many poly's like the guy said he already has the dragons made up of 100000 to 170000 triangles. i dont think he will ever use 5 million on one dragon thats just stupid..
b @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
Arch, stop considering yourself tech savvy, ok? You don't know anything about tech, you only read wikipedia.
And Crazy American, have you seen Hideo Kojima controlling the MGS4 video? You have to see it, it is amazing. He actually stops the video while it's running to manipulate the camera, the lighting effects, and other things to show it's real time. Just look at it and tell us your opinion when you're done.
CrAzY American @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
lol real time...say it again
hahaha
CV @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
ROG27, I hope the dragons are AT LEAST 10 to 17 times more detailed than the Gears of War models. Dragons should be that much bigger, or are these supposed to be baby dragons? More polys are fine, but look at all of the real creatures that are composed of incalculable levels of geometry and are still ugly and animate stupidly (like Uwe Boll, since everyone likes to pick on him--not that he doesn't deserve it--and I want to be popular).
DICE @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
#40
ha u my friend are in straight up denial.
Features
Taming The Dragon:
Next-Generation Asset Creation for PS3
The second floor of Sony's Metreon Center in the center of San Francisco was bustling with talk of Katamari Damacy and Donkey Kong as game industry professionals and a few not-so-professionals funneled past a pair of turnstiles into the three-screened Action Theater for the latest IGDA meeting and mixer. Matthias Worch, designer and technical art director for Factor 5, was the speaker of the evening. He was armed with an updated version of his technical lecture from the Game Developers Conference this past March, one that now discusses art creation for Factor 5's still somewhat mysterious PlayStation 3 title Lair.
Dragons abound in Lair.
Fundamentally, this was another opportunity to explain the value of digital maquettes and to demonstrate the rendering software Worch is most fond of. This seemed to go over fairly well, as Worch's tools are powerful (and indeed elicited constant gasps of admiration from the audience) and he has a number of sound arguments for at least considering maquettes as an alternative modeling technique.
This IGDA event all falls under the general topic of adjusting to the technical needs of next-generation technology. One senses some serendipity, in that these needs seem to have come about at just the right time to justify Worch's arguments possibly not that the methods were set up to address those needs. But, as Worch seems fond of arguing whatever works!
Resolution Conflict
The general goals, as Worch would have it, are in broadening the options your art department has to call upon, in "opening up the normal mapping workflow" (to be explained below), and relatedly in training.
As far as maquettes go, the benefits are notable: physical props are invaluable for communicating art direction; there's a relative availability of traditional modeling talent, compared to purely digital modelers; that the prepping of maquettes can be a valuable training tool for new artists or to help the existing art department in adjusting to the demands of next-generation modeling; and that if done correctly, maquettes are just as cheap and fast to produce as purely digital models.
Worch explained the difference between three models of scanners: the handheld Polhemus FastSCAN, which should be decent for general use; the Cyberware M15 that he spoke so highly of in March, and the ultra high-res XYZ RGB proprietary scanner. As he compared the results of each in sequence, the raise in quality was obvious. The XYZ scanner, according to Worch, picks up detail down to 100 microns in size, which he described as smaller than the point of a needle. Whereas the Cyberware was sufficient for the last generation, Worch explained, the next generation is at the point where the added detail from an XYZ scan will actually come in handy at least for the initial model.
The Worch of Both Worlds
The benefit of a purely digital model, Worch said, was that, due to the way they're built up from nothing (much the opposite approach from scan prepping), one generally has a low-res version already handy; with scans, you have to build one. The good thing is that this is a simple process, which will serve well as a tutorial for adjusting members of the art department. Worch then demonstrated the downscaling of high-res scan models to game models using Cyberware's CySlice program. As part of the process he captured "normal maps" (basically dithered-down wraparounds of the high-res original) to apply to the low-res model, to preserve as much detail as possible.
For some contrast, he next loaded up Zbrush to demonstrate the manner in which digital models are built up and refined. For an added zing, he showed how some mapping information he acquired from a maquette could be applied to a purely digital model, to blend things together and add in some extra detail.
A 3D scan performed by XYZ RGB's proprietary scanner for The Matrix movie series.
Watching the Show Dragon
The thing most people probably came for, though, was the dragons. Worch had little to say about the actual game he has been working on now titled Lair though he used the models all throughout the lecture. One of the key models was a maquette (built by Peter Konig at Massive Black, the man behind the Dragonheart models); another, a digital render. The final version used in the game, Worch said, was a blend of the best parts from each: a practical body and limbs, and a digital head, tail, and wings.
He played a recent extremely high-resolution trailer in real-time, occasionally pausing to swing the camera around or turn on or off various effects. To be fair, the scene in question was clearly a cut-scene, calculated to show off just how many polygons the PS3 can throw around; it's still a lot of polygons, though.
Each model, Worch claimed, contained somewhere between 100,000 and 170,000 triangles. Each had a bunch of other special maps and lighting applied, and the main character was built up with "over ten textures". He compared this to an estimated 10,000 for characters in Gears of War and other recent high-res games. The high-res models, meanwhile, that got dithered down to produce the in-game models, ran up around 5,000,000 triangles."
now read
CrAzY American @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
lol real time...say it again
hahaha
Arch-360 @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
DICE thats much more realistic. taking into account that the game consists of sky battles. but dont EVER even consider that the 360 cannot do that. i mean look at PGR3. 80k per car + buildings, and thousands of people per map. also the landscape besides the buildings. and its a launch title. so yeah.
anyways i think we can both agree that people/cray fanboys got out of hand a little in this thread. and didnt open their eyes. the PS3 isnowhere NEAR that powerful. theyre poly pushing capabilitys are practically equal anyways.
Arch-360 @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
oh and B heres your proof about the unified shaders bieng more efficient you pathetic noob.
http://www.ati.com/developer/eg05-xenos-doggett-final.pdf
DICE @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
ARCH360
heres the problem.. the game is not runnin on final devkits... and 170000-80000 still comes out to be 90,000 more polys than pgr3 thats more than twice the textures.. now considering that lair will be much of a bigger game than PGR3 and is still on beta dev kits.. make all the difference...and its only gonna get better.. PGR3 is one preety game aswwell
b @ Dec 18th 2005 10:03PM
"Posted Oct 10, 2005, 11:29 PM ET by Arch-360
oh and B heres your proof about the unified shaders bieng more efficient you pathetic noob. "
Arch, nobody cares for efficiency, and it won't help the Xbox 1.5 a lot. There are many more variables than whether pipelines are segregated or not, like for example, how many shader operations per second can both realize, or how many TFLOPS can each console generate (because they do matter for game physics, something you forgot). Even the 360 with such efficiency can barely handle 48 million SOPS, when the PS3 can handle up to 100 million, and even if you lower it 50% on some games, like cross-platform or 2D games, it's still 50 million SOPS > 48 million SOPS given this generous model. Now, dont tell me that only Sonys figures are theoretical, because both are.
Its pretty pathetic that you have to resort to propaganda instead of actual proof of anything, lol. Go with your ignorance elsewhere, you are not causing an impression on anyone with your BS.