Developers unhappy with PS3 dev tools?

Of course, this sort of topic could be a cause of many heated words from Sony and Microsoft fans alike, so we implore you to maintain a civil discourse in your posts. Please.

Hahahahaha sony you [Censored by the management.]
~Teh micorosoft phanboi










hahaha j/k. Sounds like we wont be seeing sony's full potential for a while to come, does that mean its not going to be worthwhile to buy the ps3 at launch?

A civil discussion... here...

Wow, now I can't stop smiling.

___

Based on these comments, I think Sony fans are going to be severely disappointed when they see the gameplay graphics of the launch titles.

Hey Dan. Well, Blu-ray is not a sure thing, but the only one left in not backing Blu-ray is Universal Studios (on the movie side). By the time PS3 launches, movies will be there, or about to be there. And I don't think universal is stupid enough to go solely for HD-DVD, now that the last ones left to decide besides them (Fox Studios, Paramount, and Warner Bros.) already went for Blu-ray.

Also, the tools for PS2 were shitty too, so PS3 will be hopefully as good as PS2 in still getting games like that. I just hope Sony doesn't alienate me or any other Sony users with another shitty (or costly like LIVE) online service, let alone having a useless format, or few good exclusives. I don't wanna waste my PS2 (or PS3) games by having them lose this console war, when they are kings for now. I hope.

Sounds like a plausible take. I heard that Sony was stripping features to hit $400. If Blu-Ray can't sell the system, why keep it. Especially when they can sell the real home theater freaks a separate box.

Wow, so much for that.

Thanks for your input xbox4life. You just proved that videogamers will never be taken seriously. Read what Dan Choi's first comment was. Now look at your post and tell me what seems to be conflicting....

"Posted Oct 26, 2005, 7:11 PM ET by xbox4life
fuk ps3 sbox 360 will kick its @$$ ps3 has no good games at all and never will 360 gets pdz halo 3 geers of war + gost recon"

I'm happy I'm not comparable to an Xbox fan like this one.

By the way, is 360 going to get FPS only? I'm glad i'll wait.

I have to say that I sort of expected this. With a four-hundred-dollar price tag, there are bound to be some things that will be difficult to do -- especially with the PS3.

At least the batman belt buckle style controller still
remains....player 1!! to the batMobile!!!

xbox4life: Punctuation and Capitalisation is your friend.

To quote Bash.org:
Capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my uncle Jack off a horse.." and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse.."

xbox4life, just out of curiousity, are you the "YOU STOLE MY FUCKING CLOUDSONG!" guy? You sure seem to share his temperament.


----------

Regarding the post. If memory serves, PS2 had a similar issue in its infancy. Despite that we still had the cracking early title, SSX :)

Dear xbox4life,
People like you make me weep for our future. Put down the s-controller for 10 minutes and pick up "The Elements of Style" by William Strunk, Jr. Please.

Grammatically yours,
North America

I think Blu-Ray will win out eventually, but Gates was on the money when he said this format war is a losers game. The future is online. Ask anybody with a modded Xbox and they'll tell you getting out of your chair to switch games is like changing channels without a remote.

DVDs were not a 'sure thing' 5 years ago. There were potential competitors from DVHS to Divx (remember that flop?). PS2s helped make DVD players ubiquitous (along with their inclusion in many PCs and Macs.)

If by 'not a sure thing' you mean HD-DVD, well, that battle is swinging toward Blu Ray's side with increasing speed.

“We are unlikely to see games exhibiting a level only PS3 can achieve until the end of 2007,”... Please! Yeah right,.. all of the above

Whoever wrote this article is on crack and needs to be slapped uncontrollably. PS3 is not going to be better than anything else - including the 360 - when its released. And whoever believes otherwise are a victim of Sony's hype and needs to be slapped uncontrollable as well to bring them back to reality. The PS3 is based on current graphic tech from Nvidia, at the end of 2007, I think Nvidia will have something that "is a little better" or at least able to match the PS3. If not they deserve to be bankrupt.

By that time, the 360 would have hit its stride, baby. Developers will have a handle on the hardware and I guarantee or your money back, that we will be witness'n some truely amazing gaming on the 360. Look at Gears of War, thats only using less than 1/3 of the system potential! When I read that, I lost all bowel control. I can't wait to see what the other 2/3 is packing... and u know, developers always manage to squeeze out more perfomance out of a product the longer its around. Look at the current Xbox, for example.

Look at the PS3 specs objectively home skillets and stop being fanboys as they're called. PS3 IS NOT, AND WILL NOT BE AS GOOD AS SONY IS PROMISING. I'm still waiting for Toy Story quality graphics in realtime on PS2. Where is AT!? PS3 is not going to stop world hunger, bring world peace, and run Killzone 2 in realtime.

This time, this generation, this console war or whatever its called... Its truely going to be about content and GB, MB, blue ray, green ray, ... don't mean a whole lot. Its a revelation, BITCHES!

$50 dollars a year for LIVE is costly? If you consider that costly, your gonna love paying $600+ for a PS3.

Plus, I'd rather have the depth of LIVE for $50/year as opposed to the futile online enviro of of PS2/3 anyday...

Launch games are usually not the strongest consoles games, with maybe a few exceptions. The best (or better) PS3 games will start to come about a year or two into the life of the console.

I'll buy a PS3 at launch because I have a lot of PS2 games that I haven't bought (Kingdom Hearts 2, Final Fantasy XII, Shadow of Colossus, God of War, Devil May cry 2 and 3, ICO, Killzone 1 & 2) and I want an upgrade, so I can watch Hi-Definition movies. Blu-ray is winning, and I don't see the porn studios calling a shot yet. Besides, VHS was chosen by porn because it was able to give more storage than Betamax, and Blu-ray can reach up to 216 GB (27 GB per layer, more than 19 hours of hi definition playback, and a ton more for Standard definition; anyone wants all “The Simpsons” episodes in one disc?), as opposed to HD-DVD.

Also, there are a lot of exclusives for PS3 that will rock Halo 3's ass (Like the FFVII remake, Lair, Devil May Cry, God of War, MGS4, Killzone 3, etc)FFVII Not announced? Neither has been Halo 3, morons (and I rather play Killzone 3 than another mainstream Sci-fi POS with no ending like Halo). Why is it that you stupid Xbox fanboys mention only First Person Shooters?

Also, charging for online gaming isn't a very convincing move to invite new users to play.

Not to get off topic, but I'd argue that DVD was a sure thing back with the PS2 appeared. I remembered wanting to buy a DVD player, but opted for the PS2 instead, because it offer DVD and games.

DVD movies were far better than VHS, and you have better control and extra features, something not easily attained with tape (VHS, DVHS). Nobody took DIVX seriously. It was one of those technologies nobody was asking for, and Circuit City introduced to get into the rental business.

The difference now is that I've yet to see a Blu-Ray movie, and couldn't even tell you what it could offer over a DVD movie. I've yet to see a Blu-Ray player. Is the quality going to be the same leap as from VHS to DVD? Yeah, I don't know. But if PS3 pulls out a cheap Blu-Ray player, you better believe I'll be in line for the PS3 over a dedicated player. One thing is for sure though, I am NOT going to rebuild my library of movies all over again just to get the Blu-Ray version. Does Blu-Ray read DVD?

Splash:

Yes, Blu-ray plays DVDs. Sony isn't (that) stupid.

In fact, let me explain you splash. A blu-ray has a blue laser, which doesn't read DVDs, but so does HD-DVD; But then again, all HD-DVD and Blu-ray players will offer DVD playback (that is, they will add a red laser to it too), so you don't have to worry about the movies you have, just worry about the ones you don't.

This may be sad for PS3 fans. But that much for me. THe sony playstation three may of collase under it own power. It like the Dreamcast.

I don't hate any com. but I am a nintendo fan.

The PS3 has to offer only hi-tec games.
But revolition will offer simiply yet fun games.

As a professional developer myself (I can do everything from x86 assembly all the way up to high level Java/.NET stuff), I have to say that Sony is really shooting themselves in the foot if they can't provide quality software development tools. Sure, you can have all the processing power in the universe, with your extra SPEs, but they won't be very helpful if I can't develop on them.
For example, I used to develop software for BlackBerry cell phones. They had a decent IDE that included good debugging support, emulators, and such things, but Visual Studio beats the crap out of it. Eclipse is alright, it needs some changes though. I've never used Sony for any kind of development stuff, so I have no ideas on how good they might be, but from all the negative press, it sounds bad. Heck, VS is perhaps the best way to develop software around... VS2005 is only improving a darn good thing, and I'm pretty sure XNA Studio is a version of the 2005 codebase, so it probably rocks at developing.
Ballmer was right when he chanted "Developers" so many times. Its all about the coders, so give them some love. Now, I'm speculating, but Sony has focused more on public hype than good coding tools.

PS3 games will be great, with great graphics, but probably not at launch. Anybody who buys a PS3 will be happy with it. Anybody who buys a xbox 360 will be happy with it. I'm getting a 360, not getting a PS3, maybe getting a Revo.

Oh my God. That is much better.


BUTT PS3 STIL SUXXX

This is news? Several months ago Sony mentioned all the tools and final dev kits wouldn't be available until the end of this year. So of course, developers are not going to be happy about it. The tools will be there, as will the dev kits. Now it may not be as easy to program for as the 360, but then again, the PS2 wasn't easy either, but look at what was developed. Once the developers learn the system, we'll probably seem some amazing titles. Sony is in this for the long haul.

Funny how a quote from a single developer can become "a fact" for some people. The 360 devkits and software shipped before Sony because maybe the 360 is being released 6 months before?

Perhaps the quoted developer is upset that he can't "drag-and-drop" a game together as on the 360 with XNA... Real programmers will have no problem working with the PS3. Infact, they may actually learn something during the process. When they do, the quality of software produced will surley be "next-gen".

Now I will hide from 360 undead.

I believe a major selling point for the PS3 will be the Blu-ray drive, at least initially. I just hope Sony won't put too much a premium over it -- charging over $500 for more... The first generation games doesn't have to be mind blowing better than the x360, that can be achieve later in the life cycle if possible. Just put out innovative, entertaining games and its a done deal.

One thing I think Sony should consider is not compete with Live service directly, but complement it. If they charge a subscription fee for 'premium on-line service', it better not be exactly what I'm paying for Live, otherwise its redundant, divisive and honestly, they'll lose to Live. Instead, if Sony does have a premium on-line service, make it worthwhile so a user is willing to pay for it in addition to Live.

Integrate functionality like Location Free interface or whatever, that can connect to the PSP as a remote with on-line subscription is something I'm willing to consider.

In any case choice is good, be lucky you have money to even afford one of these costly next-gen video game consoles... and your dick, i mean adolescent pee-wee-einer, will not grow any bigger by dissing a console you don't like.

Anyone remember the Sega Saturn? Didnt it have some heavy duty power under the hood, but was hard to develop for? Humm what ever happened to that system? Oh yea it died.


Now I dont think the PS3 will go the way of the saturn, but it will not go the way of the ps2 either. I already have a DVR that records HDTV. Will i invest 400bucks just for a player with no recording? Nope.

I seem to remember that the Dreamcast was a lot easier to develop for than the PS2 and the Playstation was a lot easier to develop for than the Saturn. Poor Sega. Anyway I'm not surprised to see people haveing a hard time developing for the PS3. I wasn't surprised because of the history of the PS2 being hard to develop for, the sheer power of the system, and the new format that one has to develop for. This bit of news doesn't mean anything bad for the system in my eyes, just kinda stating the obvious.
On a side note it made me chuckle a bit to hear Hirokazu say that PS3 only quality won't come out till 2007. This is funney since all system launch games don't take full advantage of the system that they are on, and usually takes them a year or so to get it right. I must say, Sony is stating the obvious.

I think it's all relative. The PS3 dev kits are probably not much harder to deal with than the PS2 ones (which, yeah, were sort of a pain--but tolerable). It's just that Microsoft really went out of their way to make the 360 development evironment easy to use--so the PS3 tools (even if not much worse than before) pale in comparison.

I do hope the developers learn the kits, though, because strong competition is what makes this industry improve.

Jason, almost nobody has a DVR. Besides, most people were (are still) happy with DVD players that only play, and not record. Besides, I prefer to record on hard drives than on disks. That way I don't have to be spending constantly on discs, and Sony also said that "120 GB might not be enough" (120 GB is 12 hours of hi-definition; You could also record on standard definition, which could give you a lot more hours; you could store a whole season of your favorite program on SD while you go on vacations; that could be made even with an 80 GB HDD, but I'm sure there will be even higher drives). Also, does your DVR play games? Hm.

I love it how people rationalize on their particular case implying everyone will follow.

Anyone catch the video at "Epic rips on Rev..."

A next gen panel discusses the 360, PS3, and the Revolution.

There was a comment about blu-ray and "protected screens." And I got the impression that there's a feature that's not well known yet, but it appeared he said you may need special TVs or something. Anyone know what that's all about?

The video got me all pumped about the PS3 and 360.

I'm not sure what a DVR has to do with the PS3, but I've gotta say, if you don't have one yet, it's like the most awesome thing ever if you wanna record TV and watch it later or pause/rewind live TV.

I have a TIVO and now a Media Center PC (two DVRs), and I convert recorded TV to the PSP all the time for portable viewing.

Is the PS3 going to offer DVR?

With so much at stake, Sony can't afford to kick off the next generation with a fizzle. They need games sporting some killer graphics. That's the sum of all they've been promising up to this point.

Besides "insane" graphics, the PS3 has nothing else going for it. What if the PS3 can't deliver on the promise? The 360 dev kit has been in the hands of developers for almost a year longer than that of the PS3 - not a favorable situation for Sony. It may be that the games running on the 360 will look better than the Sony's stuff for quite a while (even if the PS3 is faster on paper).

'Course I could care less if either (or both) of 'em loses the next console race. No matter what happens, you'll be sure to find me playing Zelda on my shiny new Revolution.

GamePlay > Graphics

It is my personal belief that when it comes to "claims" and product specifications the PS3 will still remain king. The Xbox will be a close second, but I have played the 360 and did not enjoy the experience. Now if Sony can live up to their claims on what it is supposed to do, the PS3 will be a dead ringer. (Sony has been decent about living up to their claims recently i.e. PSP) What I really think it will come down to is if Blu-Ray wins the format war. If they do, PS3, even if it's not all it's chalked up to be will dominate. Look at the Game Cube ... the game play was excellent and the graphics just as good, but no DVD player.

P.S. I really miss the days that someone would just state that they disagree and give reasons to back up their claims and not start the F*%kin' fan boy name calling bit ... Let us all show some dignity.

GamePlay > Graphics

#20, #22, b,

You're such a fanboy.

"I remembered wanting to buy a DVD player, but opted for the PS2 instead, because it offer DVD and games." So how many DVD movies do you have? Or have you played using your PS2?

I would rather not shorten the life on my PS2 by playing DVD movies on it when I have other devices that would do a better job. I would rather use it as it was intended, that is to play games.

A toothbrush is used for brushing your teeth, but other possible uses can include scrubbing the toilet, the floor, or remove dirt from the bottom of your shoes. The toothbrush can get all the other jobs done but why would you want to?

The fact is, the PS3 and Xbox360 are game consoles first and everything else last.

Sony is taking a real big step in the next console war. They have never had the superior graphics and technology in their console during the console wars (N64>PS1, Xbox>PS2). I think they focused to much on the technology concept of gaming and not the development concept in the PS3. With development costs for the PS3 being higher then the Xbox 360, Microsoft has a great advantage and can lure more developers which will equal to more great games. And for you Sony fanboys that say that Xbox 360 sucks because its graphics are slighty lower then the PS3, I say this, didnt the PS2 have less graphics then the Xbox and the PS2 won that console war. So technology and graphics isnt all needed to win the console war.

What a misleading title. Developers are annoyed at the time that the developer tools are released. They are not unhappy with the developer tools itself...not yet at least.

"The fact is, the PS3 and Xbox360 are game consoles first and everything else last."

Not according to the way they're marketed.

I agree with Soothsayer on this one. I have a PSP and it was marketed to be more than a handheld game console. Personally, I spend more time watching movies and listening to music on my PSP than playing games. Well find out who will win the format war when PS3 comes out and I'm still sticking to the hunch that if Blu-Ray wins, Sony wins. Unless they completely bomb it out on the system. There are positive features as well as negative features on each system. Actually, the way it's looking right now, if Nintendo can get their act together, they might win this one. I mean, come on, a downloadable library of all their titles from the past 20+ years? That will be insane! And Duck Hunt will again reign Supreme! (kidding)

Best Regards,
Tank

James:

How can I be a fanboy when I'm looking to buy a console not just for its games, but for something useful? 360 isn't bringing anything useful to the table. At least PS3 is bringing full HDTV support, and Blu-ray.

Also, you think I just bought a PS2 for movies and a few games? LOL, tell that to sports fans. I never buy sports games. None. Wanna know what games a play (including PS1 games)? Ok, all the final fantasy series, which are 12 games total (subtract final fantasy 3, but add Chrono trigger; I'm not counting XII since it is not out, but I'm counting tactics), Chrono cross, a lot street fighter collection games, some Mortal Kombat games, GTA3, GTA Vice city (at least they were out before on PS2), God of War, Devil May Cry 1, 2 and 3, resident evil classics (the new ones I got them for cube; great system), the Metal Gear Solid Series, Max Payne, Shadow of Colossus, Medal of Honor: Frontline, Kingdom Hearts, and I'm waiting for Kingdom Hearts 2, FFXII, and FF7: Dirge of Cerberus.

Hell, I doubt that is fanboyism. That is a huge collection of games. Maybe a fanboy for Nintendo, but not for Sony. I buy nintendo's consoles solely for mario games, and zelda games (including smash bros, mario kart, etc.). The only reason i'm backing sony on this one is because I think PS3 is a very useful system, and there is no reason to waste my PS1 and PS2 games.

What did Xbox offer FOR ME this time? DVD? No, because I already had PS2. Did they offer games? No Japanese games in the beginning. Were there great games? Perhaps halo 1 and 2, fable 1 and the lost chaps, Ninja gaiden 4 and NG Black, and that's it. And most came out in the end of Xbox's lifetime.

For action games, there was a ton more (and better) for PS2, just look at the ones I mentioned above (to compete against Ninja Gaiden).

For FPS I only had Medal of Honor Frontline, which was great and enough. I'm not a huge Fan of those, so Halo won't do it for me. Hell, the only FPS I've had for consoles were Turok 1, Star Wars: Shadows of the empire, and Doom 64. They were OK. Goldeneye was good but I didn't buy it. And for PC, I've only had Doom 1 and Doom 2, and I only bought them because they came together on a 20 dollar bundle. So the total of FPS I’ve owned is 7, they all look the same now. They are all either Sci-fi pieces of shit, or military pieces of shit. Give me something original, damn it.

For RPG's, the Xbox is a joke. Only Fable and I rather play any final fantasy. Even FFX or FFVII which are both overrated.

Fighting? There was no good fighting game on any console this generation. Dead or Alive is a joke. Even tekken is better, and tekken has gone downhill. Virtua fighter is better. Mortal Kombat has gotten better after the MK4 fiasco, and it doesn’t count because any console has it. But so far, the only great fighting games are the ones that came before Marvel vs. Capcom 2 (all mortal kombats before 4, and all street fighters including Mvs.C 2; everything else is shit).

Don’t tell me crap about “ghost recon, siphon filter, rainbow six, tom clancy’s games, etc”, because they are all the same shit. I don’t get it, why get so many military games? At least in halo you can shoot all the time and do a lot of shit you can’t do on those games… or so I’ve heard lol. I won’t even bother on trying those games because they all look the same and it’s just too down to earth, like sports games. I had enough with Medal of Honor.

oops, syphon filter

"Real programmers will have no problem working with the PS3"
Real programmers also never test their software, or submit their code to QA, because they always get it right on the first time.
Dude, I am a "real" programmer, and I'm telling you, it isn't any fun to write code in a crappy environment. If I don't have a comprehensive debugger with detailed information on objects, whats on the stack, etc, I can't fix your bug. If my environment lacks sufficient code coverage tools, I can't see what needs optimized first. The tools definately matter, and no amount of posturing on your part can change that. "Real programmers" (in the sense you're using it) don't exist. And oh, I don't want to have to "learn something along the way". If I have to learn a spanking new paradigm (the PS3's architecture is a vastly different experience than most programmers are used to), then the program is going to take much longer and cost more to build. I'm a real programmer, and I happen to know you're wrong.

"What a misleading title. Developers are annoyed at the time that the developer tools are released. They are not unhappy with the developer tools itself...not yet at least."

oh, really? are you a developer? nah.. didn't think so.

for your information, more than one developer has expressed that the Xbox 360 is easier to develop for than the PS3, and some have simply said that the PS3 dev tools just aren't that good.

b

Wow, don't defend your fanboyism. Its permeating from every word you speak.

And no one cares you've played every game known to man

"360 isn't bringing anything useful to the table. At least PS3 is bringing full HDTV support, and Blu-ray."
360 is bringing:
streaming media from a PC
Live (Sony's online efforts are terrible so far)
720p and higher support (thus, you are wrong about the full HDTV thing)
Connectivity to portable media devices (iPods, etc)

So, ready to eat your words?

"360 isn't bringing anything useful to the table. At least PS3 is bringing full HDTV support, and Blu-ray."
360 is bringing:
"streaming media from a PC"

Like it matters? I forgot the casual consumer loves that. *sigh*


"Live (Sony's online efforts are terrible so far)"

You're right, LIVE is free, I forgot. Now I feel compelled to play online! True that, and both Revolution and PS3 cost to play online, which sucks. Nevermind, you have a point on that.


"720p and higher support (thus, you are wrong about the full HDTV thing)"

*cough* 1080p *cough*

"Connectivity to portable media devices (iPods, etc)"

Oh, I forgot how useful is that. I can use my iPod now on a 360? Damn. AS opposed to a PSP on a PS3, right? Oh wait.


"So, ready to eat your words?"

[Censored by the management...]

Oh well..doesn't matter at all. As long as the gameplay is good.

I remember playing Zone of the Enders, Dynasty Warriors 2 and Metal Gear Solid 2 during the first two years of PS2's life. It was just as good even though the development tools was not perfect at that time. As long as the game library is good, the graphics can take the time. I don't care at all.

So far either PS3 or Revolution does have more attractive title for me than 360

Does anyone have the full translation of the whole article? I never heard of Enterbrain before....