Are game media outlets excluding women?
by Dan Choi 
{ Oct 27th 2005 at 10:45AM }
The director of the Women's Game Conference says that games fail to attract as many women as men not because of the
games themselves (as "there is such diversity in design"), but because there's "an exclusionary system in place that
uses advertising and magazines to create an environment that is hostile to many women." (Exhibit A: midlife Lara
Croft.)
Suzanne Freyjadis-Chuberka claims that having a few female readers of (or even women staff on) specialist mags only
proves that the most persistent females have nothing else to read (or that they "buy into the lad culture when they
write about themselves.") Of course,
a rebuttal from the major game mags was posted the day after, but a quick
look at the pubs involved would seem to confirm the conference director's outlook on the ads, if not her final analysis
on media as a whole. (Exhibit B: Bloodrayne.)
The issue of women in
games—and how to get more to play them—is not a new topic in the media by any means, but can anyone recall a game
marketing campaign that was geared mainly towards women in the recent past (and not "primarily built on male
fantasies")?
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Mike @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
if your gonna market your product, your gonna market it towards its target fanbase, Men. If they made marketing focus on women, They wont sell as many copies.
I dont see what the big deal is. Who cares if women or men play video games? The company still sells their game either way.
Michael McGuire @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
It's been at least a few days since we've had a "woman & gaming" story. I was thinking you guys were starting to slack off :-)
Derbeste @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
It never fails to amaze me how LITTLE politicians understand economics. Merchants to not drive the market..... CONSUMERS DO. The merchants merely respond to market demand. There have been attempts to chapter the female gaming market. They have obviously not proven as profitable. Sorry to the cool girls that DO game...but overall....it's a niche market. The mainstream will never cater to gals until they show they will make it worth their while to do so.
Again...Merchants respond to the market (supply and demand) not the other way around!!
spick @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
I don't think it's as simple as 'Merchants respond to market' as the gaming industry is fairly new and has largely been dominated by males (read male nerds), as was Computer Science and Engineering. That trend is starting to turn as the industry has grown large financially.
I doubt there were many gals hanging around John Carmack and the guys when they were creating Commander Keen.
At least there is now a platform where Suzanne Freyjadis-Chuberka can make these arguments and try to implement some change.
I doubt there is anything sinister in the 'exclusion' of gaming females. Heck, most girls I know still turn their noses up at it, including my girlfriend from time to time.
Derbeste @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
ok...you're right. The videogame industry is fairly new. So let's look at a few others.
Movies, power tools, sports (basketball in particular), construction, pornography, hunting, camping, etc.
Now I'm not meaning to be a sexist here. I am very aware that MANY women are VERY good at all these things. I also admit that in virtually all cases, women are just as capable in performing in any of these industries (don't read too much into the porn industry though hehe). Furthermore, all these industries do make SOME products and advertisements for women (ie WNBA and "chick flicks"). But they all still aim there primary marketing at the segment that has made them the most profit. If women showed a greater interest in any of these, there would be more advertising and products aimed at them.
My only point is this. If you want to encite change....don't blame the merchants. You need to incite interest among women first. Otherwise they will remain in the "niche" catagory like in the rest of those industries.
Reeve @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
I see I'm the first "girl gamer" posting today :P
As far as marketing goes, aside from Barbie games and such, more often than not, game ads seem to be pretty reflective of their product's content. A couple of notable exceptions I can think of are the ad campaigns for the first Jak and Sly games, which-- although the games themselves aren't overly "masculine"-- were clearly trying to get males interested in the games.
Then again, I don't see too many print ads nowadays, since I don't read video game mags anymore (the one that I did subscribe to pretty much spoiled the ending of a certain game for me-- I let the subscription lapse after that). Nowadays I prefer to get all my news and insights from the web.
As for Comment #1 - Some games and game series have sizeable female followings (certain RPG series in particular, but also games like the Sims and Katamari Damacy). If such games were marketed toward men exclusively, *then* they would sell less copies. Games that are/can be enjoyed by both genders should be marketed as such.
spick @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
My only point is this. If you want to encite change....don't blame the merchants. You need to incite interest among women first. Otherwise they will remain in the "niche" catagory like in the rest of those industries./quote
And that will be tough to do when women are portrayed as they are in games, largely through male fantasy, ie the heroine in distress a la Princess Peach or Lara Croft and her ilk.
Don't get me wrong, the gaming industry isn't the only one at fault here, I don't really consider them 'at fault'. I think women's mags do far more harm with their advertising than the gaming media ever will.
Game companies need to hire more female developers and designers, and give them their own projects, a clean slate, and see what they can turn out. That's the only real way to turn it around. This will happen too as more and more graduates are turned out from Game Design programmes.
Heck, some women should get together and start their own game development companies, why not?
I think Nintendo is the only real company making inroads into the female gmain market with Nintendogs and some other new DS releases.
JDH @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Reeve, you are right on!
How come there isn't a WNBA game?
How come there isn't a Man Simulator like Nintendogs?
How come the Soap Opera/Cinematic genre of games haven't been exploited as much as an FPS? Take Indigo Prophecy's control schemes and game mechanics, but replace the content with Days of Our Lives' characters and episodes.
There aren't women gamers simply because there aren't games that appeal to females. Only certain few females enjoy Frag Fridays.
I'm all for female gamers. I hope my wife will one day be interested, not in my games, but in her game types.
Actually, check that... I would have to share my gaming system too. :(
Derbeste @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
I really like your point on the women's magazines....touche.
Only other thing you may want to consider is that enrollment and graduations for women in tech type positions as reached a 20 year low. It reached a high in the ".com" era (about 3-5%) and now according to new studies 1/2 of 1% of tech industry classes have women in them. This could be because it is perceived to be very hard to get a job in the tech industry now....or that it is to "male-centric" but it's still the case.
So I don't see where all these new female gaming programmers that will get this new clean slate will be coming from.
WizarDru @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
I can only speak from experience. My wife games...but sometimes she has to roll her eyes when she looks not only at some games, but their ad campaigns. I mean, sometimes the publisher goes the gratiutious route, for no real benefit.
Women aren't looking for games to be rendered gender-inert; women ARE looking for games (and their ad campaigns) to be less demeaning and hostile to women in general. Did PoP:Warrior Within really need to have a female character like this:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php?date=2004-12-03
There's a difference between a game like Far Cry and F.E.A.R., which aren't really to my wife's tastes, and something like DOA, which comes across as the Man Show instead of a fighting game. Compare that with Soul Calibur 3, which has plenty of the same visual candy, but doesn't come across as crass. Compare Tomb Raider: Legends, whose ads feature A close-up on Lara Croft's rendered backside versus Resident Evil's Anna, who comes across as sultry but not exploitative.
It isn't that there shouldn't be that kind of material...it's just that currently, it's MOSTLY that kind of material, many times when it doesn't need to be.
spick @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
After a little research....
Digipen, the only accredited gaming school, has 14 females enrolled in a student body of 450.
I guess that's the real issue.
Derbeste @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Honestly....I think the female population should thank their lucky stars that not more is aimed at them.
I mean......look what it's done ot the male gaming population. ><
I went to the midnight release of WoW....I swear...I think I was the only one there that owned a toothbrush.
Turns out maybe the gals are the smarter ones after all for focusing on more important rl matters.
Or maybe I'm on crack..../shrug
ZeroCorpse @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Soap Opera games might appeal to men, too. The problem that women run into when dealing with video games is the pricing. Most women I know say they couldn't justify spending $50 on a game when they could use that money for other things, even if the game has universal appeal.
Example; Katamari Damacy. I know women who play it and enjoy it, but most of them wouldn't have touched it if they had to pay $50 to do so. The cost of gaming levels the hobby at men- not because we can afford it, but because we're stupid enough to pay high prices for interactive entertainment on a regular basis.
Women need to see a real value in something before they'll spend their hard-earned cash. The Sims & The Sims 2 both do very well with women because they have such amazing replay value, and because the game's community has provided SO MANY tools and add-ons to make that expense seem worthwhile.
Women don't have a problem with seeing women being portrayed as sexy. If that were a problem, then women would never go to the movies or listen to female musicians, either! The problem is the overall value of gaming.
Another more technical aspect of the issue is that most games, being made by males, require extensive use of our 3D spatial sense. It's a proven fact that men have a highly developed 3D spatial sense, while female brains are geared toward having superior memory, communication and organization talent. This is another reason why The Sims games are popular with women; They aren't about running around in a 3D space. They're about organization and memory. Look at other games that appeal to women, and you will see this pattern emerge.
Before anyone jump down my throat, let me say that my minor is gender studies, I've had a lifetime of fighting for gender equality, and I'm actually a feminist. I am also a realist, and the fact is that games are made to appeal to the 3D sense of a man, and not the communication or organizational skills of a woman. Neither is better. It's just that the guys who program games are not capable of thinking like a woman, and they lack the natural talents and inclinations of a woman, therefore the games they make rarely appeal to female gamers.
There are, of course, exceptions to every rule. Killcreek proved that some women DO excell at 3D games, but she was not a typical girl gamer. And in the end, she still posed for Playboy. . .
To get Mrs. Joe Gamer to pick up the controller, there's one more thing that must be done: The games must stop being so GEEKY. The stigma attached to gaming has a lot to do with the content frequently being scifi, fantasy, or other geek genres. It has to do with the controller being an intimidating multibutton gadget. It has to do with the games looking cartoony and not photo-realistic.
It also has to do with some game genres dropping off the map once the PS2 came into existence. I used to enjoy playing J.B. Harold Murder Club and Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective with my girlfriend at the time, and the 3DO games Zhadnost, Twisted, and Family Fued. Since that era, though, the games have all tried to be flashy and high-tech, and the game show genre dropped off completely (except for Wheel of Fortune, which sucks), the detective genre disappeared completely, the games that rely on memory, recognizing voices, and NOT running around and blasting everything at high speed are all-but gone.
J.B. Harold was a great game. It relied on the player not only following the clues, but listening to the suspects as they spoke to catch certain inflections in their voice to tell if they were lying. It relied on the player's natural skills, rather than giving the player a "voice analyzer" that they just pointed and fired at the suspect. It relied on the player being able to "listen between the lines" when a suspect was speaking. Every girl I dated when I had this game LOVED it! It was a game that asked them to use their communication skills, and not their hand-eye coordination or twitch skills.
There aren't many games like that right now. It's all about twitch gaming these days, and most women just don't want to have to dedicate their time to learning complex controller functions to make a 3D character run around and do things.
So game designers- get it straight!!!
Women: Memory, communication, organization & realism
Men: 3D movement, twitch gaming, geeky themes & complex controls.
It's not as simple as that alone, but it's a start.
Mike Street @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
do not under estimate the power of the female dollar. recent reports have show that female gamers make up 43% of the market. It's just that magazine and journalist and marketers have done such a poor job of representing them. There is a large market there that will spend money. But we need more women in the gaming industry that can speak to the wants and needs of female gamers. And more female gamers needs to step up and out and be vocal about what they want and what they want to play. Nintendogs is a hugely popular female gamer title. So that market is just sitting there waiting to be catered to.
Shawn Oster @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
ZeroCorpse, that was a rocking piece.
Another thing a lot of games lack is a social aspect. Yes, yes, getting 8 people together to trash talk while playing Halo may seem like something social but it's not really to many women I know. When my wife sticks around to watch all my friends during video game night she calls it boring because we don't really communicate, we just yell and pound our chests and insult each other, which is a big yawner for her. Add a game that requires honest teamwork amoungest people and communication... or a game so simple you can chat about your week while playing and I think women will be more enticed.
Another thing I've noticed is that women don't tend to accept boundaries as much as men. Back in the day when my mom would watch me play games she'd always suggest things like "go down that hallway, try that door, what's in that crate, jump up there". Time and time again I had to tell her that certain things you couldn't interact with, that you just "knew" you couldn't go certain ways (hey, that 3D spatial thing at work). She grew very frustrated that she could see something but not interact with it. I'd do this compilcated series of steps to get up on a platform and she'd ask me why I didn't just climb up a section of crumbled wall instead. Men's single -track minds are better at accepting a rule set and not worrying too much beyond that.
I really don't think the ads being too sexy is the problem. My wife does burlesque and loves "cute" outfits and loves Alias, it's just that most games bore her to tears. Video game ads too sexy? Have you *seen* the covers of Vogue, Elle, etc?
Reeve @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
JDH: A WNBA game makes sense, but I don't know about the rest. What girls look for in a game doesn't usually involve such patronizing assumptions :P
ZeroCorpse: Price certainly is an issue, but then, I don't think many *people* would've picked up Katamari Damacy if it was initially released for $50! There's something to be said for gamers wanting to get the most bang for their buck, and the shorter (and quirkier) the game, the less likely they'll be willing to pay so much for it (look what happened to Ico). You're right though in that price may be more of a factor for women than for men, which would explain why RPGs like Final Fantasy and the Xeno series are popular among female gamers, as we can spend numerous hours on them. Well that, and there's the handsome male characters in those games (hey, girls can be just as shallow as guys!).
But then again, what do I know-- I enjoy the occassional rounds of Mortal Kombat and Unreal Tournament as much as I do Harvest Moon and Tetris Attack, so I'm hardly the average girl :P
Ragnor @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
The main argument does not seem to be that games do not appeal to women, but that gaming magazines and advertisements in particular, are geared towards men. I can't say that I agree. I think that the ads seem to be geared toward some alien race that cares nothign about game content and enjoyability. I learned at about age 13 not to buy things just because there's a hot girl on the cover. I agree that the advertising does not appeal to women, except in a few rare cases, but I also feel that very few games take an advertising strategy that appeals to ANYONE.
And in response to the comment about average girls: It seems like all the women I've dated openly talked about how they disliked fighting games and FPSs, not to mention MMOs, but when actually confronted with them, they went nuts and got hooked. Being beaten by your significant other at a fighting game is painful... but kind of hot. Having your significant other ask you about how point systems and armor work in WoW after moments before complaining about how they suck is pretty satisfying too. I mean, if a game is fun because it's FUN, not because of some gimmick, then the problem shouldn't be different genders enjoying it. The problem should be getting people to WANT to play it. Which is what this article was pointing out in the first place.
Mary @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Okay, another girl here. I'm really into video games and I don't know why other women my age (mid 20s, raised by nindendo) aren't. I hear the "it's a waste of time" thing a lot, but a ton of stuff nongamer girls might do for fun could also be considered a waste of time by the same standards. The only thing I can think of that MIGHT get to the heart of it is the image thing - my gal friends who aren't into games think games are "nerdy" and that I'm nerdy for playing them. I differ from them in that I don't care at all about being seen that way. Maybe I am nerdy, I don't know, but I'm having a lot of fun.
JDH @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Reeve- don't mean to patronize, but in its simplest form, "a game that represents women .vs one that represents men" was my noteful intention.
I don't intend to start a flame war, but take this comment by ZeroCorpse (btw, the post was great):
"...It's just that the guys who program games are not capable of thinking like a woman, and they lack the natural talents and inclinations of a woman, therefore the games they make rarely appeal to female gamers."
A very true statement. However, I don't agree that men can't "program" games because they aren't capable of thinking like a woman. How the game is programmed depends entirely on how it is "developed". Developers, mostly men, use processes and content that appeals to men. Those terms are totally different.
Rather than female programmers, aka people who punch keys and solve technical problems, there needs to be female game developers.
Much like ZeroCorpse' initial point, "for women to find value in games" (paraphrasing), then, who better to create games of value for women than women?
The first problem is where do game developers come from? Here is a similar question, and the answer is the same for both questions: Where do artists come from? The answer is everywhere and from all walks of life. Artists and game developers create from their experiences and ideas. Game developers should "draw from life", whether they are male or female, to make games.
Do me a favor, play Indigo Prophecy (Xbox). I didn't like the game because it was made for males- I have other reasons. However, I want to see if any women find it to their liking for those same reasons. Why and why not?
Send an e-mail to ' jhalljhall AT yahoo . com '
Bethanie @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
As a woman in her late twenties, I enjoy gaming. I am even a member of an internet FPS clan. I understand that women gamers are still a minority and that retailers and gamemakers want to make money. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't want to see more game geared toward my gender (and I don't mean a shopping or soap opera game). I like games that kick butt. I just don't want to see a woman's naked butt in the kick butt game. I have read almost all of the comments hear and see very valid points on both sides of the issue. However, we still have a responsibility as a civilized society not to degrade women or men for money. I'm sick of seeing soft core porn pawned off as a video game. I'm tired of being told I'm too touchy about it. "It's just a game," is not good enough anymore. And I have liked gaming since I was about 11 when the first Nintendo took off (maybe I was younger, can't remember). I would venture to say in today's techno savvy culture, more and more young girls will be involved in gaming. Do we really want to let them have only the choices we have now? It's just lazy to continue using sex to sell games and movies.
Alkaiser @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Are you a woman and you want to do something about the lack of women in the gaming press?
Write for Netjak.com.
We've had an open application on the front page for the last 2 weeks or so. Not a lot of female applicants, though. All genders, races, ages accepted...anywhere in the world.
As far as developers...there's just a problem with the developer demographic, as waspointed out in that story last week. The problem stems from the game industry relying on the 3-5 years of experience in the industry, rather than looking for new talent. If you don't let anyone in who hasn't been there for 3-5 years...you only open those jobs up to the same demographic that's already there.
Only way left to get in is through a Jr. position or by going indie, the same problems you're going to have getting into the magazines. Something's being done...it's just being done slowly.
Ragnor @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
I'd also like to point out, in response to ZeroCorpse's posting... If we keep trying to say what female gamers want and what male gamers want, we perpetuate the divide. It is not simply women who do not enjoy learning button-combos or the intricacies of shooting another player in the head. There is an entire culture of non-gamers, replete with their own male populace, that finds the things that many gamers delight in to be fantastically boring.
There's also a nature vs. nurture dilemma involved. Are women less prominent in video gaming because the games that are being produced are unappealing to their demographic because of some biological predisposition, or is their demographic being cultured to think that games are not their thing, regardless of what type of games are being turned out currently.
Sense @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Please don't flame me for this, but I'm hoping the Revolution might help in this department. I agree that this isn't just a male/female phenomenon. It happens to me with all my friends, men and women. You invite someone to play Soul Calibur. They don't know the buttons, so I invite them to spend some time in the training mode. "Nah, I'd rather just play." So I agree to play and then constantly win. Most non-gamers don't want to put in extra time to master something that is only a "game" to them. If the game isn't instantly appealing (my non-gamer friends love Bomberman and Puzzle Fighter) they don't have any interest in it. In short, a return to simplicity might invite more people into the gaming fold. Maybe they might even be willing to invest time in more complex games after that.
Derbeste @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Honestly....I think the female population should thank their lucky stars that not more is aimed at them.
I mean......look what it's done ot the male gaming population. ><
I went to the midnight release of WoW....I swear...I think I was the only one there that owned a toothbrush.
Turns out maybe the gals are the smarter ones after all for focusing on more important rl matters.
Or maybe I'm on crack..../shrug
Ragnor @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
man, I should take longer with my posts. I forgot to mention another point, which is losing. I speak only from the experience of watching my male friends and their girlfriends. The girls are not avid gamers, but every once in a while will want to enjoy the same things my firends do, and my friends will take notice. They will attempt to teach their gf in the same manner that one would teach a seasoned player, in less than a minute (this is kick, this is shoot, etc) and then start stomping all over her, because it's so easy that they can't help but win over someone who's spinning around trying to figure out the controls. Not to mention that in FPS and fighters (and puzzle games like puzzle bobble, if you've ever watched 2 friends play) it's second nature for us to point out what stupid thing the other person is doing, and how badly they're playing. "haha, look, I pwned you because you suck, miss nub! Look, I'm squatting on your corpse, it looks like I'm raping it" isn't really a way to get ANYONE into games.
I think that in the case of most non-gamers, they don't like the feeling of being schooled any more than us gamers, but more importantly, they don't want to learn and become better at a skill-based game (a naturally intuitive game would probably be a different beast altogether) when they were doing things for fun long before they sat down with that controller/mouse-keyboard. As a gamer, we'd go play a similar game (or the same one) to get a feel for it, come back, and wreak havoc. As a non-gamer, why not go out with friends for a coffee, rather than stay at home aggrievating yourself over control-schemes.
vakerorokero @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
there's just one missing point for women not caring for games. Content. Most women don't like carrying guns or racing fast cars, unless they are tomboys. Besides women seem to have different interest and games are not in their most popular activities. Most of the girls I know enjoy warioware, karaoke & dance dance revolution & quirky games on the DS like pacman, but even then, they like it for a while, not more than 30 minutes. I'm sure the revolution will bring a lot of women, but developers need to get some women bosses so they can target that market. a guy can onl get so far, and then add masculine ideas, like "women enjoy reding cooking recipes" "or "I'll give her a bowling ball and then she'll give it me" as all that crap are just cliches. Trust me I know. and for all those that say women DO like to drive fast, most are just manly women, normal women have too much on their mind to actually pay attention to the street let alone race another car.
Laughing Man @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
In today's world the consumer does not drive the market. Marketing to the consumer is the biggest, relentless, most extraordinary expenditure by anybody selling anything to the mass market now. It's almost become more important than the product itself. This is how shit sometimes gets sold. It's perceptory. To think otherwise is ignorant.
I'm a boy. If I were a girl I'm certain I'd love certain games but the perception of the industry I would have would be even more vitriolic and negative than I have now.
The responses here are a testament to that. There's this idea that women want soap opera games, or a game based on The OC or what have you.
Intelligent, hot girls I know have all been floored by games such as Ico and Kattamari Damacy and then you have an entire legion of young women right now who are becoming a growing part of the gaming market - fuelled firstly in adolsecence by manga. Shojo manga aimed at girls is the fastest largest growing book market in the US in decades. Hence all that shelf space you see at Border's now.
But as I rant in other subjects here, games journalism and magazines and marketing is utterly broken. The industry isn't growing because there's an overwhelming flood of crap product backed by juvenline marketing campaigns aimed at the way the corporate parents of games companies see you - as a drooling, overweight, socially inept and sexually frustrated adolscent male or one trapped in a 30 year old body.
It's why the show floor at E3 seems to have a direct correlation between most ludicriously underdressed booth babe and quality of game - proportionally inverse.
Gamers are pussies. It's what I'm always going on about. We keep eating the crap they shovel at us.
If you want to live in a world where middle management types and marketing execs sell you successfully that perception of yourself, then go ahead and say that it's fine.
A good game is like any other piece in any other medium. It's just good, regardless of the gender who appreciates it. I've known attractive women working in feature film, comic books, games, the music industry on the business and creative side.
If the industry were to start realizing that, if the games magazines were to start treating the subject intelligently, acutely, and not being a mere adjunct to marketing hype (you think the payola situation was bad in music? It's exactly comparable to events I've seen staged by some of the biggest names in software) then it would be better for everyone.
But the problem is what I continually suspect: the large core fanbase in gaming are exactly as marketers perceive them and think the games industry is just a fun, childish hobby and not a legitimate business.
That's b.s. because the suits don't think so. They know it's a cash cow. And they continually use that attitude in the consumer to their advantage.
And one last thing I constantly reiterate: the gaming retail experience SUCKS and gamestop and EB help keep women away from games. Not because girls can't hack it. It's because women rightly so tend to demand a better retail experience. The one game store I do see with a proportional number of women: the nice Nintendo flagship store here in NY.
OTAM @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
How exactly can they "market" games towards women? There's just about every genre out there so if a girl can't find a game she likes then she's just not into videogames and that's the end of it.
My girlfriend enjoy videogames and she'll play what she enjoys. She'll play games from Meteos to DOA to Star Wars KOTOR. I have a friend who's aunt plays Diablo and Xbox like it's going out of style.My mom used to play games like Wheel of Fortune on the old NES.
You can't market something towards someone who isnt interested. If they arent interested it's not like some "Strong,positive woman" in a game is going to make them care for gaming.
Laughing Man @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
"You can't market something towards someone who's not interested".
You are naive. That's the whole goal of marketing these days.
How do you think we got into this whole Iraq war? Would the American public have been as willing to dedicate billions and 2000 lives if the message had been "We are going to transform the Middle East into a democratic model through our military might"?
No. Instead you were sold a marketing scheme based upon faulty and in some causes forged intelligence and the maniuplation of such liberal sources as the NY Times along with utter falshehoods about WMD, Al Qaeda, and September 11th.
Is that way off base? Perhaps, but it's the most extreme example of how marketing works now. PR people have the real power, not politicans, and if that extends towards making you feel you absolutely have to have Madden 06 even though you own 05 and 04...
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/persuaders/
Read, watch, and wake up.
They could market games not just to women but to just people by actually making them out to be singular products of entertainment quality instead of plastering digital centerfolds in Playboy in synergistic tie ins.
Nintendo and Square Enix know how to, and they're doing it successfully.
bandersnatch @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
"Nintendo and Square Enix know how to, and they're doing it successfully."
Considering Nintendo is a distant third this generation and each quarter coming with press releases announcing smaller and smaller profits.
It's really refreshing to see their strategy paying off in such dividends.
san @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
"...It's just that the guys who program games are not capable of thinking like a woman, and they lack the natural talents and inclinations of a woman, therefore the games they make rarely appeal to female gamers."
Hmm. That's like saying male artists working in any media can't create works that appeal to women. Just think about it. Is that true? Of books, film, music? So it's not inherently true of game design. It might be a lame excuse for doing whatever they want, or following the money because they, or their companies, believe the money is with male gamers. But it's not a forthright explanation of why game design favors male gamers.
Game designers of both genders can design games that appeal to both genders. Game writers of both genders can write about games in a manner that appeals to both genders. It's for want of *trying*.
Dan Choi @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Sure, there'll be differences in game design based on the people working on them -- witness the female-to-male ratio of developers working on The Sims and even Zelda: Twilight Princess right now (see one of the most recent issues of Nintendo Power for that bit of info) -- but Suzanne's theory here is that games media and marketing are the culprits for turning off games where "there is such diversity in design."
The_Wind_Waker8 @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Yeah, but what about Nintendogs? That game seems to be primarily aimed at female gamers. Then again, the game is also aimed at guys to get the game because girls have it and it was said to be as a way of meeting girls.
san @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Something like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Or self-fulfilling market survey. The market is perceived as male; the media and marketing are aimed at that, the largely male market; ergo the market is predominantly male because they get all the sales pitch.
Be interesting to find another form of entertainment that was dominated by a male audience but has since migrated to cross-gender popularity. Find out what broke the ice for the female audience.
Jason @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
A WNBA makes absolutely NO sense. First of all, there are only two NBA game franchises, and only one on the PC. They're already absorbing most basketball video-game buyers' dollars. Second, the WNBA itself doesn't even come close to generating the revenue and interest that the NBA does. The NBA has better athletes since men are physically superior to women and that's what audience's watch and care about. So, do you really think that a WNBA VIDEO GAME would make any kind of respectable profits?
WizarDru @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
OTAM Said: "How exactly can they "market" games towards women? There's just about every genre out there so if a girl can't find a game she likes then she's just not into videogames and that's the end of it."
There's just about every genre out there? Huh? How many genres do you think exist, four? Do you limit the possible genres to First-person shooter, platformer, RPG and Sports games? Which genre is Katamari Damacy? Beyond Good and Evil? Indigo Prophecy? When's the last time you saw a game like 'Densha de Go' in the US?
Sure, there are plenty of games out there, but note that on the big three consoles, there really aren't that many genres represented. Puzzle games are marginalized, adventure games are virtually non-existent, social games and simulation games ARE non-existent and games that aren't easily pigeon-holed are rare and not agressively pushed.
Katamari Damacy was expected, by Namco, to be a throwaway release, no more successful than dozens of off-beat oddball concepts. Word of mouth generated the demand that a lack of marketing didn't. The new Xbox live offerings of games like Bejewled and Zuma, for example, is no accident.
Look at the games for the DS and GBA (which arguably has the highest proportion of female players of any game system). The selection of games is wide and varied. There are few games like Harvest Moon and Lost in Blue on the main consoles (except for...wait for it...Harvest Moon on the 'cube). There is a much better selection of games there, genre-wise, than on the main three consoles. Variety does exist, but many of them are poorly marketed or not marketed at all; and many of the games on the market don't offer the kind of experience that some female gamers want.
A common fallacy is to assume that female gamers want different games, when sometimes what they want is the same games handled differently. Many games punish the player for failure very harshly, for example. Men and women can come to a game with very different expectations and desires; the current marketing is tailored mostly to one set of them. Many games that would succeed with a female audience are lost in the noise.
Does this equate with their being no marketing to appeal to women? Hardly. There is a large amount that is gender-neutral or inoffensive to a female viewer and potential buyer. However, the most egregious examples stand out. Compare and contrast: G4 has shows like X-play and Icons, which are just fine. Then they have a show like Judgement Day, where one of the reviewers (Tommy Talarico, he of the failed "Video Games Live!" tour) lists "big hooters" as one of the appeals of a game. Yeah, that's going to reel in the ladies.
Movies, Books, music, board games and plenty of other entertainment forms attract equal numbers of both genders. If video games wants to join their ranks, they need to start treating female gamers like gamers, and not the gamer's girlfriend who they don't like all that much.
Merus @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Lara's back looks broken.
No, seriously, where the hell is her spine.
ShadeX @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Wow, ZeroCorpse explained just how my wife views videogaming. She never played the SIMS before but says that from what she's seen of it she really likes it and finds it interesting. She loves Bommerman, SMB and Bonk. couldn't care for anything else. Guess that's why I'm getting my daugher into SoulCalibur III at an early age. When she watches me play she shouts from the background "No, dady you do this and then you cut here with the knife"...
Hmm maybe I shouldn't let her watch:)
J @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
You know, coming from a chick gamer (starting with the intellivision) I'm glad there aren't more "girl focused" games. I think i would probably have to give up games if that were the case. I've always liked video games, and i miss the days where my "breed" (girl gamers) were more or less non-existent and no one paid attention to us. I honestly get tired of these articles that are so worried about our place in the grand scheme of video games. I'm not worried, and all my chick friends that play vids aren't concerned either! I think this is a non issue, and the only girls/women who seem to think it is an issue (in my experience) are the girls that are like "omg stfu i want equal rights even though i don't play video games." >_<