HD-DVD won't be used for games on Xbox 360?
by James Ransom-Wiley 
{ Nov 1st 2005 at 12:15PM }
Microsoft Japan's Yoshihiro Maruyama has said that an HD-DVD Xbox 360 add-on is
possible, "but it won't have any relationship to gaming." Say what? Maruyama has stated (via Xbox Famitsu)
that if the HD-DVD format was introduced onto the Xbox 360, it would only be used for viewing movies that are produced
in that format—games will remain in standard DVD format.
If true, it's likely that Microsoft does not want to confuse consumers with yet another hardware configuration (alongside the premium and core setups). Microsoft is dedicated to its stance that (almost) every Xbox 360 game will play on the core system. But why not allow publishers to release games in both formats?
[Thanks, NewComer]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Babu @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
Interesting indeed. Perhaps they do not believe that it is necessary for a game to surpass the maximum size contained within a dvd-9.
If games were 20-30 gigabytes the development cost could be much greater depending on the extra content. This would in turn raise the price of the game at retail. Maybe M$ is trying to avoid this.
On another note, last night while taking my little brother out for halloween and during the pumpkin walk I saw an interesting pumpkin. It had the letter M engraved in it followed by the dollar sign ($). Some creative lad decided to carve M$ in his pumpkin, god bless him.
David C @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
Yes, this is extremely behind the times and the reason why they would not allow publishers to release games in both formats is because publishers would not do it or want to do it. Come on, think a little bit publishers will not want to spend the extra time and money release the exact same game for a different format that will be signifigantly smaller base.
Shapyi @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
Well if I bought an XBOX360 in Nov. Why would I want to buy another one once they add HD-DVDs to play the newest games? Shouldn't I be able to play all 360 games with the XBOX360 I buy in Nov.?
If that happened, I'd be pissed off.
Scott @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
"But why not allow publishers to release games in both formats?"
Because that's really confusing. Do you expect parents to know if their kids owns a HD-DVD capable 360 or just the DVD version?
Say a publisher makes a game that doesn't fit on one DVD. They could release on one HD-DVD but that means they can't sell the game to any who owns a DVD only 360. So that have to also release a DVD version. Which means that they have two version of the game, which both have to go through QA.
So they'll never release a HD-DVD version, just put it out on DVD and eveyone can play it, HD-DVD 360 or not. It's the same reason why so many PC games still only get released on multiple CDs instead of a single DVD. It's cheaper and easier to only put it out on CD only.
mike @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
thats the whole point all games will always be playable on all systems although they may add a hd-dvd drive to play movies
of course the is nothing stopping using more than one disc
Tesla @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
While I agree that most games do not use multiple discs I would like to point out that Metal Gear Solid 3 Subsistence is going to be released on three DVDs. That's only on a current generation system. In next gen systems there will be more detailed textures, better sound processing capability, etc. I have a feeling that games like Metal Gear Solid 4 will take full advantage of the storage space on Blue-Ray.
Since they're going with DVD at launch, it would be suicide to release an addon drive or another version of the Xbox360 with an HD-DVD drive. I'm just glad Microsoft seems to be learning from the failed attempts of Sega and Nintendo releasing peripheral media devices.
*disclaimer - Yes I am a Metal Gear fanboy.
Jago @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
WOW...omg...I have been saying this for quite a LONG time now. It's common sense that ANY COMPANY wouldn't release another system just so it had a newer optical drive. Think about it people...geez...
DJ @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
Just think of what they could do with games though, if they do move to HD-DVD. With that big of disc size they could pretty much make games seem like interactive movies.
bandit @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
simple solution-
using the HD-DVD hybrid disc, developers can place all the game content on one side of the disc. this allows the game to be played without full voice acting and FMV. On the other side which has a capacity of 30GB+ they can put of the voice acting a FMV they want and the same exact disk will be DUAL format.
startled @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
Let me express my shock and amazement:
Duh.
If it's a later in the cycle add-on, of course games won't ship on it.
Duh.
anonymous coward @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
"using the HD-DVD hybrid disc, developers can place all the game content on one side of the disc. this allows the game to be played without full voice acting and FMV. On the other side which has a capacity of 30GB+ they can put of the voice acting a FMV they want and the same exact disk will be DUAL format."
Wow, what a terrible idea.
BXJoseff @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
Guys...read the first paragraph and then do me a favor, smack yourselves, and then smack Joystiq for misinterpreting this article.
Famitsu is discussing an HD-DVD "ADD-ON" of course it's not going to play GAMES...because it's a frikken "ADD-ON", probably through USB in order to play movies. Why anyone would want to buy an HD-DVD Movie Player accessory for the XB360 is beyond me, besides the fact that it'll probably be white and green....if you're into that shit, be my guest. You guys need to read the article with a bit more attentiveness.
Gamas @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
Yeah, the hybrid disc idea would just annoy users.
But MS made a gamble that 9gigs will be enough for the next gen. With multiple discs you could do more, so there's some space to grow into.
It seems tight to me, but only time will tell..
Jay @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
I dont understand the Xbox 360, im starting to see why people are calling it 1.5
So they plan on releasing 2 on launch, and then an extra HD version?
Adding HD-DVD at this stage is pointless. its going to confused consumers. bad idea. but hey this guy says it wont happen, so thats good for Microsoft no?
BXJoseff @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
I'm not a PS3 fanboy, but lets look into what that crazy crazy Mr.Kutargi said during the E3 presentation. He wants the PS3 to be "future proof". The hardware seems like it is, and a 25/50 gig Blu Ray seems about right for the future proofing idea he has...9 gigs won't cut it in the long run, unless XB360 only plans on having another 4 year run like it's older brother...and that's kinda ridiculous don't you think?
isuma @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
BXJoseff: the point of this article is that xbox360 games will only be on DVD (or maybe cd as well) .. it doesnt matter how the new hddvd drives are integrated ... whether its xbox360.5 or an add on it doesnt matter. MS, limiting itself to dvd is what is of concern here.
soco @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
i'd just like to point out that since the next generation machines are more powerful, the level of compression can also be extensively greater. i've read somewhere that the 360 has the ability to decode like 256 WMA streams at once. this is interesting, because a lot of xbox games uncompressed wave files for their soundeffects. that alone can make a huge difference, especially on top of the MPEG2-WMA conversions.
there will be multi-disc games, there will be no escaping it. Nintendo, Microsoft, and Sony will all face this problem. Nintendo got away with it's 1.3GB discs this round compared to the dual layered DVDs and people still love them, so i don't think this is really gonna make a difference.
plus there's always the ability to do the xbox caching on the harddrive if you've got one. i can see 'install game' as an option already, especially since you can download games onto it already and they've done versions of PGR off the harddrive at shows.
syco @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
How big was the Cube's capacity? 2GB? And the only people who couldn't keep it to one disk was Capcom. Most games didn't use the whole thing. Wind Waker was barely over a gig, and that game was beautiful and expansive. Demanding 30GB of capacity for console games is just number-lust. 9GB should do at least for another 6 years.
Dakara @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
Since the PS3 isnt a gamng system...maybe Blue-Ray is for Movies Only too...Just maybe...
Ryan @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
"But why not allow publishers to release games in both formats?"
Because it would be a bitch to find that the disc doesnt work in your system forcing you to drive all the way back to best buy and wait in their long horrible return line. :)
Jason Cross @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
This was news when it was widely reported months ago.
It has long been confirmed that HD-DVD on the X360 would be for movies only, so as not to split the userbase.
benderillo @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
its all part of their master plan:
http://xbox360.joystiq.com/entry/1234000780065021/
"Xbox 360 chief architect Peter Moore has already stated that there are no plans to stream full-length 360 titles via Live. However, there is great potential to introduce episodic gaming. Services like Xbox Live Arcade are definitely going to take a chunk out of retailers profits, but episodic gaming could completely change how we buy and play games."
Anything that doesnt fit on a dvd they can make you pay extra for....
Gamas @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
I think that considering some PS2 games are already close to 9gigs (God of War, others), it's reasonable to expect much bigger games in the next generation.
The point about Zelda Windwaker is silly. It was a _toon-shaded_ launch title. Texture usage -> minimal!
Zo @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
I could be wrong but...are there any HD-DVD Movies yet? Are there any HD-DVD players available for sale? And, are there any production machines for burning these DVD's yet?
Seems all to premature..ditto for blu-ray
soco @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
i don't think there are burners or players yet for HD-DVD, but there are certainly some for blu-ray. have been for about a year. i think the players are limited to japan though.
Edward @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
I think benderillio got it right. Gates himself said as much when he said that the HD-DVD/BluRay format wars were useless because physical media is going to go away anyway.
http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000247063965/
You're probably going to see complete 360 titles delivered via Live. Even the Big N seems to be addressing this issue by offering (albiet old content) content online as part of the Revolution.
Nossy @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
For those who thinks Sony's idea of "future proofing" is the way to go.
Hint: Future proofing hardly ever pays off.
AMD64 - No 64-bit OS in 3 years. Win64 is not 100% compatible with every devices. Socket 754 processor are now replaced with socket 939 processors, even before the 64-bit OS came out.
USB: 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, 2.0. No useful USB device until 2.0. Those with USB 1.2 and under are at a disadvantage. Heck, 4 years of USB Ports in back of computer until recently they are in the front. 1st and 2nd generation USB buyers must purchase PCI slot adapter 2.0 USB ports.
AGP: 1x, 2x, 3x, 4x, 8x (3.3v, 1.5v), 5 years and many versions of video cards. Newer AGP cards only works with 1.5v ports. 1st generation buyer's AGP ports are useless with new video cards.
1st generation DVD players, 1-2x drive costs $300+, small DVD library. Lately, 8x drive DVD progressive scan, also upconverter to 720p costs $150, many movie titles. 1st gen buyers are suckers for paying premium.
jc @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
It is my understanding that both DVD and HD-DVD can fit on the same disc. You can either read from the DVD layers, or the HD layers. As far as I can tell, it all depends on the equipment you are using to read the discs... if that was the case, then you could release both versions on the same disc, and those with the updated drive will get the bonus.
However, I don't know how well USB2 will stream that much information from the add-on to the X360.
I would rather this the X360 to be next gen all the way, and not have the release version be so crippled... luckily I am very patient.
Sense @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
Just for the record. Wind Waker was not a launch title. Not even close.
G @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
THAT WASN'T THE POINT #28
syco @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
That, and the fact that my point still stands for Metroid Prime 1 & 2. Both single disk games. Both visually stunning and huge. WW only used half the disk, which is why I used it as an example. But if you can fit a game as nice as Echoes in 2GB, then I think you ought to be able to find some way to deal with 9GB. Otherwise it's just lazy coding.
lee @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
hmm, sorry to go OT, but sexually ambiguous person holds HD-DVD...?
The way they'er holding the disc, looks quite female although their gender is somewhat confusing <.<;
Again sorry for going OT, but its messing with my brain soo much... :o
Sense @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
Hey, no need to shout. I know it wasn't the point. I said just for the record, didn't I? Didn't mean to offend.
Babu @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
Posted Nov 1, 2005, 2:35 PM ET by Sense
"Hey, no need to shout. I know it wasn't the point. I said just for the record, didn't I? Didn't mean to offend."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you guys actually hearing what each other is saying? Am i missing something here or can you actually hear him 'shouting?' As far as I can tell, he is simply typing in capital letters.
Soo Knee @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
Microsoft Japans Yoshihiro Maruyama has said that an HD-DVD Xbox 360 add-on is possible, but it wont have any relationship to gaming
Translation: You can connect a non Microsoft HD DVD player to the 360 via the USB interface and you can play movies, but since it's not a Microsoft option, it won't be used for gaming.
bd (formerly b) @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
Why the fuck didn't they put this format since the beginning? I mean, I want to buy a 360 NOW, not later, yet later the new one will become crippled. So what's the point in adding an HD-DVD? By the time a 360 with HD-DVD comes out, HD-DVD will become useless.
G @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
SORRY FOR SHOUTING. LOL
Lost_Canadian @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
From a purely gaming point of view, 9 gigs (+hard drive if needed) is more than enough for the next generation (4 years or so). Blu-Ray is technology for the sake of technology.
I'm looking forward to the HD formats coming out, but only from an HD movie perspective. It's overkill for a gaming console and just drives the cost of the system way up.
I'm betting that the first batch of PS3 optical drives will have a lot of reliability issues.
Sense @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
Capital letters emit a higher frequency than lower case letters. I can hear it. Like a dog :)
Nah, I really just wanted G to know I wasn't trying to be a jerk.
Digi Smalls @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
HD-DVD wouldn't have meant extra content publishers can't afford to make. it would've meant uncompressed video, textures and sound.
realtime decompressing just takes cycles you could be using for the framerate. and then just for lossy visuals and audio that will be noticed and ranked below PS3 versions of the same game. sigh.
Gamas @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
Ok, this list is by no means complete, but here are some _current gen_ games that are already dual-layer. These are sloppy or lazy programmers, there's just a huge amount of video/sound/art/content on these games.
The size of all these assets is going to be increasing significantly for a real next gen game.
GranTurismo 4
Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance
Xenosaga
Madden NFL 2005: Collector's Edition
Champions of Norrath
God of War
The Guy Game
GTA: San Andreas (I could be mistaken on this, but developer had said it was DL)
I think that the 360 will be a little tight on media space. Not saying that it will ruin it, but it's not something to casually dismiss.
In my opinion.
Gamas @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
oops, edit: these _aren't_ sloppy or lazy programmers.
or maybe there are? :)
Donlo @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
They are, notice how those are PS2 games, I dont think the PS2 has many compression options. The PC version of GTA:SA was not Dual Layer (certainly didnt take up 9 gigs of hard drvie space, even with the soundtrack.) If you cant compress video or audio then yes you will need more than 9 gigs, if you have Mpeg2 + Mpeg 4 as well as texture compression and normal maps for extreme detail (very small compared to using polygons) then 9 gigs is enough for a while.
isuma @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
An HD-DVD add on makes no sense. So, you're going to have an xbox360 (with a DVD drive) connected via usb to an add-on optical drive that plays HD-DVD (and DVDs) .. so that you can only watch HD-DVD movies? ... in a couple of years you will be able to pick up an HD-DVD player at your local drug store.
I think MS is screwed here in the same way that Dreamcast was screwed for forgoing DVD. Either come out with xbox360.5 with HD0DVD drive (and do not allow games in HD-DVD) or nothing.
Babu @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
Posted Nov 1, 2005, 2:29 PM ET by lee
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"hmm, sorry to go OT, but sexually ambiguous person holds HD-DVD...?
The way they'er holding the disc, looks quite female although their gender is somewhat confusing <.<;
Again sorry for going OT, but its messing with my brain soo much... :o"
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I took a good look at the picture in an attempt to answer your question good sir. However, after a lengthy review - i still cannot determine the gender of the person in question.
Can anyone help us out on this matter of utmost importance?
xbox 360 news @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
This is just strange. It would have been nice to have it built in from the start.
darryl @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
"Hint: Future proofing hardly ever pays off."
Hint: A game console is not a PC (unless it's an xbox ofcourse).
"I'm betting that the first batch of PS3 optical drives will have a lot of reliability issues."
I'm betting that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
"But if you can fit a game as nice as Echoes in 2GB, then I think you ought to be able to find some way to deal with 9GB. Otherwise it's just lazy coding."
How 'coding' has anything to do with disc capacity/utilization I'll never know. This would be the most ignorant thing I will probably read today... thanks for sharing, you made me smile and slightly shake my head.
syco @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
...
Video games are programs. Programs have to be coded. If a game is coded in a lazy manner, meaning taking lots of object-oriented shortcuts and not optimizing at least core components of the engine, then you can end up with a game that can take up multiple times as much space as the exact same game coded by more competent programmers. In a lot of ways there's less room for difference in console software since they're all dealing with the same compilers and development kits, but I must imagine that the compilers offer differing style and levels of optimization depending on the circumstances of your software, threading tendancies, optimization of oft-used functions, and even *gasp* possible assembly code for the absolute core of the game. The size of the executable is a very good indication of the skill of the development house in question. Smaller almost always = better code.
gmrc @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
Don't be retarded guys ..
Games are *NOT* typically more than 9 gigs. Are you guys friggin kidding me? When are they EVER even CLOSE to 9 gigs?
Here's a list of "big games" provided by someone:
*****************************************
GranTurismo 4
Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance
Xenosaga
Madden NFL 2005: Collector's Edition
Champions of Norrath
God of War
The Guy Game
GTA: San Andreas
****************************************
The only games that are more than a SINGLE LAYERED DVD are: Xenosaga, The Guy Game and Champions of Norrath.
Now, each of those games are *barely* 6 gigs. And each of those games are all SUPER cut-scene and voice over happy. And seeing how they happen to PS2 games (Guy game excluded) I imagine there's ZERO compression going on.
Look at screen shots for Xenosaga and that other one and tell me they look good. You can't, cause the 6 gigs used is ALL un-compressed video and audio. Nothing else to it.
The simple fact of the matter is ... 9 GIGS is ENOUGH for GAMES for now. If some game GENUINELY needs 18 gigs of data, then I'm sure no one will mind 2 discs. Just thinking about a PROPERLY made 18 gig game spins the mind.
And the HD-DVD player is not going to be a USB device you plug into a port ... Goddamn some of you are stupid.
Jay @ Dec 18th 2005 10:00PM
"Hint: Future proofing hardly ever pays off."
It doesn't ever pay off. You do, like its already been said, pay the premium for no real benefit. Its like people complain constantly about the GC's underside ports, that 99% of gamers do not use them. same for the N64 DD port. PS2 HDD port, Xbox Memory card. They throw hardware in to boost up production cost slightly so they can charge the consumer more. *braces for the M$ fanboy "SOES M$ IZ A CUMPANY THEY CANN MAEK MONIES!!"*
"I'm betting that the first batch of PS3 optical drives will have a lot of reliability issues."
They will. Hey! It's Sony hardware after all. My brothers PS2 had to be replaced because of a faulty drive, and thats a slim-line PS2. THEN it had to be replaced (or the cable, IIRC) because of power cable problems. I wouldn't bother myself.
"But if you can fit a game as nice as Echoes in 2GB, then I think you ought to be able to find some way to deal with 9GB. Otherwise it's just lazy coding."
It is amazing how they got Prime onto those discs. It's not specifically down to the coding but as a small time developer myself coding does shave space off the chosen medium. Its silly things like FMV's, uncompressed music (or not paying for a good codec, which is what a lot of studios do and fob it off as "full quality WAV sound effects!"), just general bad optimisation. Having a powerful system like the Gamecube does help though; no need for FMV on Prime.