OMG Girlz Don't Exist On Teh Intarweb!
Whitney Butts has written a hilarious article on the disbelieving
reactions she gets from other online gamers when they find out she's a girl… or not (since girls don't exist on the
internet).
Because the stereotypes and reactions described are so true—whether in her experience or yours—does that make them
funny or just tragically depressing?
For more
interesting
articles on the issue of
women in games, check out last week's complete online edition of The Escapist, which followed
the recent
Women's Games Conference.
[Via Slashdot]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Foo @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Hope she doesn't name her kid Seymour.
nyc @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Hilarious, more like "shitty". I saw that article a few days ago and cringed at the lines about her owning me. Yeah ok.
To offer a counterpoint, I find that most girls on the internet are stupid attention whores just like this one.
Protip to Miss BUTTS: Wax your top lip, you look like hulk hogan.
Justin @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
that article is sooo fake. that pic is fake and the writer is probably a guy.
FAAAAKKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
girls DON'T exist on the internet. FACT.
Dan Choi @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
"To offer a counterpoint, I find that most girls on the internet are stupid [crass insult] just like this one.
Protip to Miss BUTTS: [Yet another put-down]."
Why so harsh, nyc? Even if what you say is true (to some extent), couldn't you express your sentiments in a less flame-worthy way? (Hope that comes off as constructive criticism.)
Reeve @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
I did have something to say, but then I saw the comments here...
chenzen @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Wow nyc, cringing at the idea of a female beating you in a game? You must be really insecure.
Something tells me if you spent less energy hating (or just oogling) at women you might notice more of them are playing games than you think. But most women probably avoid you like the plague if they do encounter you, never revealing their idenity.
nyc @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Dan: Because I'm a mysogynist. Isn't that what "girls on the internet" want to hear?
I'm harsh because this article (if it can even be called that) is self serving trash. The subtext basically reads "Yes I'm a girl, boys are stupid and I am better than you because I have a vagina." What the christ?
You hang out with 12-14 year olds on the internet and you can expect "ewwww girls" comments. You hang out on a decent mature forum like the ones at www.somethingawful.com and you're just another respected community member.
ChronoZaga @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
I'd hit it.
prooie @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
It's a man.
Scott Jon Siegel @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Thanks to (almost) all of you for proving her point. I had a moment where I thought that MAYBE net communities weren't as sexist and crass as she made them out to be, but you have all put my doubts to rest. Thank you. -sj
Jez @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
It's a shame; all the reaction I've seen to this article has been the sort of trollish commentary above, rather than decent adult discussion. I realise that it did hit a little too close to home for some people, but even so, I'm surprised. Still, the author didn't touch on the horrors of Xbox Live matchmaking, and that's a whole new kettle of fish.
Paul @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
I believe that a lot of women play games online but almost all of the ones i'v encountered have been quite pathetic. Most have been in Halo 2, which, from experience, leads me to believe that women have horrible hand-eye coordination and no sense of tact. I once played a woman in NBA2k4 she had her ass handed a 60 point drubbing so apparently women have no idea how the game of basketball is played either. If any women want to prove themselves, which i'm sure some women's rights, PC nutcake will want to, dude819 on xbox live would love to serve you.
Chiablo @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
My wife is a gamer. (If you consider World of Warcraft and Dynasty Warriors 5 to be games)
I've met Battlefield 2 players who are girls.
I've met Counterstrike players who are girls.
It's not something special, they do exist. But what gets me is the general reaction to the presence of a female gamer. The disbelief is one I have yet to see, but the reaction guys suddenly 'craving' that girl is the most common.
Example:
Battlefield 2: As soon as someone announces on the server that there is a girl on squad X... Squad X is instantly filled and the team with said girl is stacked due to the amount of players switching sides.
Counterstrike: People purposely sacrifice themselves so that 'daisy-girl010' can get a positive KDR (kill/death ratio) and increase her rank on the server. They then ask for pictures.
World of Warcraft: My wife always joins her clan's ventrillo server whenever she is online. As soon as she joins world of warcraft, the ventrillo server starts getting full.
I've also heard some very silly things coming out of the guys in her clan. One guy even offered to lick her wing tattoo.
After all of that, it's pretty safe to say that there are girl gamers out there, but more often than not they are disguised. So next time you run into someone named 'Imadude' it very well is a girl gamer trying to escape your ridicule and ass-headedness.
14-year old boy @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
I'm a girl!
...well I wish I was
Grudge @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
I am not areligious man, but I pray for the day when:
a) Joystiq goes back to being a great games blog, and leaves the gossipy nonsense to places like [insert shittier blog here].
AND/OR
b) Comments are disabled.
ZeroCorpse @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Nahh... I'm kind of sick of the attention-whore thing, too. Why is it that gamer grrls (of which I may or may not be one) feel this need to make an issue of their gender? Just shut up and play or contribute, already!
On 1UP.com it gets absolutely frustrating seeing some of the grrl gamer blogs that c o n s t a n t l y r e m i n d u s t h a t t h e y a r e g i r l s. Over and over. They post enticing photos (which does nothing to advance the way boys look at them) and then complain that nobody takes them seriously "because I'm a girl."
No, honey. People don't take you seriously because you can't shut up about being a girl. It's almost Freudian, the penis envy I read from some of the online girls who feel a need to compete with boys.
Here's a tip: Stop talking about your gender, stop posting pictures of your boobs or cleavage or butt, and stop forming clans that mention your gender by name and seek to "teach boys a lesson" or "pwned the boys." It's silly. It's gradeschool junk like that which makes it difficult for the millions of girl gamers who don't act like that to be taken seriously.
Not all girl gamers are like Avril Lavigne on a Hello Kitty binge. Seriously. This "girls versus boys" attitude is childish. Besides, it's a bit contradictory when a girl complains about being treated badly because she's female, but then uses her sexuality to distract other players in order to win (see: Killcreek & her MANY cheesecake photos, esp. in Playboy).
Thankfully, we never see boy gamers posing for Playgirl or posting sexy pictures of themselves wearing tight pants on their blogs. Guy gamers- amazingly enough- don't feel the need to remind people that they're male.
We're all people. Some gamers are male, some female, some are probably transgendered, and there's probably even a hermaphrodite or two playing online. . . Most people don't feel the need to even mention gender. It's silly little girls like this- with their whole "grrl power" attitude- that make people see gaming as a "boy's hobby" and make themselves look like little more than sassy ornamentation on the gaming frontier.
I'm sure she's a sweet girl, but her attitude leaves something to be desired. She's clearly using her looks, her gender, and her own delusion that she's a single girl among lots of boys to prop herself up and gain some fame. I've only recently wondered if this is the only way some girls think they can make it on the internet- Declaring loudly that "I HAVE A VAGINA" doesn't make you any more clever, interesting, or fun.
I guess what I'm saying is put up, or shut up. Stop copping the attitude and just get on Xbox Live and play. Just get on WoW and play. Just shut the hell up already, stop posting cutesy photos, and PLAY.
Attention whore, indeed. We all are, to a degree, but if she thinks she's the only girl on the internet and has a unique story to tell, she's sadly mistaken. There are 1000 blogs like hers on 1Up.com and all across the net.
Paul @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Hey Grudge, if you don't like the comments, don't read them.
SpazMonkey @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
all i can say is shes HAWT
Patrick @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Wow, Paul, I give you credit. I thought sweeping generalizations about a demographic such as "women have horrible hand-eye coordination and no sense of tact" were lost back in the 60's. I'd love to hear your enlightened views on blacks and latinos. gg engadget community for proving this girl's point. This is why I play XBox live at 2AM. All you wankers are in bed.
-p-
gh0st @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Wow...just when you think you have found the outer limit of human stupidity, folks like Paul and NYC come along. You guys suck goats at trolling even. Trolling is something of an art for those who do it well. Spewing 100+ words of "See how completely dumb ass I can be in a post" is just...well, I guess displaying how much of a dumbass you can be.
To anyone who actually wants to think about this, the phenomenon is pretty cool. I have done it twice, once at a Halo LAN where we put a group of girls in the house next door where most of the 'guys' had no clue they were fems. Some matches went this way, others went that, but towards the end of the night when the secret got out, you would have thought there were aliens hanging out next door. I thought a few guys were gonna poop themselves they were so absolutely floored.
I did it to my sons' friends as well. I stuck a TV in 'my room' and system linked and they were playing several different games. The boys thought they were playing me and my buddy, but I thought a riot was going to break out when they found out it was two girls a couple years younger. (for the idiots who would think it even matters - while they lost the majority, they did more than hold their own against a group that was older, more coordinated, etc. My daughter has no problem routinely handing out hardy servings of shame and whoop-ass with Hitomi and Kasumi)
Regardless of the idiocy that some will try to bring this down to, the concept and phenomenon are pretty interesting.
Paul @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
I'm just saying that i have yet to run across a girl who was more than passable in a FPS and anything better than bottom of the barrel in a sports game. I know there has got to be some girls who are good but generallt speaking they are very few and very far between.
Spiza @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
The game I have played the most with voice is rtcw (return to castle wolfenstein). I've known quite a few female gamers. Some are terrible, some are mediocare, and some are really good. Just like the male gamers. You won't see nearly as many great female players, but that is because there aren't nearly as many female players in general.
I think someone else mentioned the fact that a lot of gamers are boys that are barely in their teens. Of course these guys are going to be immature. For this reason, I think every female gamer I've known has been associated with a clan that has rules on having members over 18, with exceptions for those younger that they feel are mature enough. The boys simply act like that to girls in any arena, whether it be an online game or their school's cafeteria. I'm a male gamer and I've probably been just as annoyed by younger gamers as this woman has. From racist comments, cursing just to curse, to being mean to other players. Simply get yourself into a group of gamers that are the same age/maturity level as you and you'll be fine.
ZeroCorpse @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
One more point:
She bitches about people asking for her pictures, and then writes an article filled with pictures of her looking sultry in a tight belly-baring shirt and tight jeans.
Thank goodness the guy gamers don't do this! Can you imagine having to read some gamer guy's blog while dealing with pictures of him in spandex, his belly sticking out of his shirt, making kissy faces for the camera?
Patrick @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
>> I'm just saying that i have yet to run across
>> a girl who was more than passable in a FPS and
>> anything better than bottom of the barrel in a
>> sports game.
Paul, I'm a guy and I am barely passable on FPSes (stuck aroun 21 on Halo) and I am abyssmal at sports games, mainly because they don't interest me. Being a guy has nothing to do with my skill. I guarantee there are girls out there that can wipe the floor with both of us together. You just haven't played them yet. It doesn't justify comments like "they lack hand-to-eye coordination." That's just making a ridiculous assumption with absolutely no real evidence other than "your experience"
-p-
funkyflea @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Attention seeking article.
Justin @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
i hate this girl more than i hate jessica chobot
Chris K @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Bravo, ZeroCorpse. I really don't have to rant now. You summed the entire issue up perfectly.
It's sad that attention whores like her actually get the attention they demand.
Bottom line, Ms. Butts: We don't care that you're female. You aren't special, and you aren't rare. Get over yourself.
jc @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Joystiq should stop trying cover anything but games and game gear. Their audience just can't handle anything but the immature playstation vs xbox rantings.
90% of gamers out there choose games because they don't have the social skills to communicate with real people. With this comes a very crippled self esteem and the need to rebuild one's self with the need to be better than another. In a sense, the defeating of bosses in a game through any means available then likely transcend to the preceived 'real world'.
What it comes down to, and is quiet evident from the above messages, is that the majority of gamers are immature, cranky, socially enept male losers with low self esteem.
Paul @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
I'm just making a generalization, and i know that has a horrible connotation to it, but that is what i'm doing. If i said something like in general women are generally better at X then everyone would agree because it's negative point being pointed out rather than a positive everyone gets up in arms. I still think generally women are not as good as men at video games, not proportionally but in overall. I'm sure there are exceptions but again they are very rare, much more so than male gamers. And i also do not see any women stepping up saying they are any good, so where are they?
L @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
ZeroCorpse - your first post was an excellent take on the whole 'grrl gamer' phenomenon and echoes my sentiments in a much more eloquent way then I ever can hope to.
Chris K @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
And they can't spell, either. Can they, JC? :P
Quiet, indeed.
Patrick @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Paul, look, you can say what you want and think how you feel. Personally, I think it's idiotic, but that's me. I'd love to say that generally men are faster runners than women, but truth is a lot fo girls can probably outrun my sorry ass, and that is not based on personal experience. I could also say that generally men are stronger than women. As a generalizaion it's probably true because men's bone and muscle structure are different. There are of course many exceptions, but generally it is probably true. But hand-to-eye coordination? Please. It's probably due more to lack of interest than anything else. Stating otherwise just makes you look like you throw our baseless assumptions with nothing to back them up.
-p-
J (The other one) @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
To all the women bashers with their egos on the noose:
I hope you get beat buy some big ass buff body building bitch (aka CHINA LOL!!!) and she wipes the floor with your sorry ass in front of all your friends. Don't be mad b/c the girl is writing the truth. And p.s. on your b.s., everyone likes attention, otherwise you wouldn't insert your smart ass comment on a blog stating your "oh so very important opinion" in hopes to get a rise out of some people.
Dan Choi @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Just one thing: please leave egregious name-calling and insults off your comments. If you want to call the article's author "attention-seeking," that's fine; just don't call her a whore. These types of comments will no longer be simply censored (or censured), but immediately locked. Give some respect, please.
Paul @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Patrick, that comment is such PC nonsense it kills me. Generally, and as I said my comments are a generalization, of course men are stronger and faster. It would be idiotic to say there are not exceptions but it is generallt true. Now, when it comes to hand-eye coordination and ability within a video game it may be several factors, such as lack of interest, but in general woman are not as good.
calthaer @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
I dunno, I kind of appreciate Joystiq for being a little bit of a seedy place. Let's not have double standards here - we want them not to act "corporate" and professional like the tools @ Gamespy whose opinions / ratings can be bought, but we want them to be completely strait-laced here? Not to justify the immature jackasses, but hey - it's part of the blogging world. Let's not try to sanitize, sterilize, and neuter it just to placate naysayers. Let people say whatever they want - it's only words.
And @ jc - how is your broad generalization re: gamers all being social cripples in any way more mature than the people you lament?
Re: the lass in question...I'm not so sure MMOGs aren't something that a lot of people outgrow once they start to get RL time commitments. I used to play back in college when I had tons of spare time, and used to know lots of other ppl who did, too - none of whom do now. Lots of people stay, sure, but - I've an inkling that the demographic for MMOGs is probably fairly young (and therefore immature).
I don't think the lass is necessarily the attention-whore that everyone thinks she is. Sounds almost like she just wants to get her game on, and is fed up with the B.S. she has to put up with in order to do it.
She should find some older folks to play with, and be more discerning in her choice of friends. Of course, people my age might avoid her for the whole jailbait issue...
WebPimp @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
I know chicks exist on the web and I know they play games too. Just check out my site. Granted not all of them are model material, but the point is, is that they do come out to play every now and then, but tend to hide themselves because of comments usually received while online.
#8 Yep...I agree with you :)
#13...you are right. I play a lot of wives online, most in Halo 2 lately...
Chiablo @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
For those of you who think Joystiq is bottom of the barrel, you should see what digg.com has degraded to since it became popular. Trust me, Joystiq is a masterpiece compared to the absolute dribble that comes out of digg.
Plus, there is only so much gaming news that comes out every day, so some of it is going to be of the more obscure variety. The fact that Joystiq has 5-10 news items per day is astonishing. Some blog sites that cover all of technology only have 10 or so news items per day.
Nik @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
You all are insane, I think I love her. Of course I skipped all of your blabber because your comments got too long. Comments people, not articles.
Patrick @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Paul, we'll just have to agree to disagree. You're comparing girls in general to guy gamers. Put a girl who doesn't care and a guy who doesn't care against each other and I bet it's a stalemate. Like I said, we just disagree. It's not PC nonsense, it's our opinions.
-p-
Leah @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
I agree with Chiablo's post #13.
I love playing all types of videogames including FPS and MMORPG's but I don't use voice anymore or try to advertise my gender. In my opinion, if you are a girl who is really into online gaming it's smart to keep a low profile- otherwise your gameplay can suffer.
Rare Hare @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
i've never experienced any negative reactions when discovering the presence of a girl in an online game. i personally think this chick is full of shit. i SERIOUSLY doubt anyone ever sadi to her "girls don't exist on the intarweb". if they did, it was a joke.
this article is, in my opinion, a piece of trash.
Rare Hare @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
#16 ZeroCorpse:
i totally agree. i've had several girls on friends lists on Diablo as well as other games, and NO one i've met has EVER made an issue about it. there's really no need for girl gamers to constantly bring up the fact like it's some kind of handicap.
Chris K @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Dan, there is a HUGE difference between "attention whore" and "whore" proper. I don't know anything about her relative chastity, but she obviosuly forces her gender in peoples' faces, then complains when people respond.
I will say that someone who has a half-page "magazine" photo closeup of her chest (however clothed) might be trying to use her gender for her own gain. Call that what you will.
Dan Choi @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
Understood, Chris K. I've just seen people using excessively harsh language against others and don't want it to get out of hand.
Dan Choi @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
As for Whitney seeking undue amounts of attention because of her gender, it seemed from reading the article that she generally goes to the opposite extreme in not advertising it whenever possible (hence, the story about talking on Ventrilo and Teamspeak only at the request of the guild master). I believe the difference between gender-specific reactions and the juvenile comments indicative of relatively anonymous online gaming in general is the fact that no one would say a cynical thing until it was brought up that she was, in fact, a girl (even to Nice Guys with Good Grammar). It's the fact that she didn't trumpet her identity as a girl (at least at first and not intentionally) that caused such surprise and consternation later on.
Richard @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
I don't think it's that unusual to doubt the identity of someone you can't interact with directly. Take a look at this Penny Arcade comic: http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php?date=2005-09-30
Zo @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
I thought the article was great! Its exactly what some researchers on human behavior have been saying. It also shows what the Internet has turned into.
Everyone can hide behind the keyboard and be as bad they want to be because you are a faceless avatar running around the wires. All the ills of society come out if you can't get in trouble. Some of the posts here, some in jest, some at heart bear this to be true.
Part of the reaction that she was getting is because you can "pretend" to be a guy or girl depending on what type of rise you are trying to get. There are so many cyber con-artists in the internet wild you can't take anyone for their digitally written words anymore. Sure guys want to see a picture -- but if she is too pretty, then its a scam -- because stereotypes come to the forefront when you can't face someone in real-life. IF geek THEN guy ELSE IF geek AND girl THEN must be mo-fuggly.
I am amazed as to how the Internet has the power to connect people together while at the same time disconnect peoples brains and general well being towards others.
I do disagree with the statement that all guys on the Internet are desperate its more like pretty girls that like to do geek things are so rare that when its true most guys find it hard to believe and most of their everyday experience with women are quite the opposite.
In my 15 years in male dominated software development I have seen some very rare pretty and smart ladies as well as the pretty ugly. The reaction to the pretty and smart are the same as what was in the article. I also ride street bikes on the weekends and occasionally track the bike on track days. On very rare occasions there are some very fast and very pretty ladies that come to the track to race and when they beat up some guys (including myself on occasion), the guys at the track have the same stupid reaction as some of the people on these posts they cant handle they just got beaten by a girl. But, for some real fun reactions go to a pool hall where Jeanette Black Widow Lee is playing some exhibition pool and listen to all the guys she whips on during the match.
Pretty women in male dominated activities will ALWAYS get the same reaction and the Internet/gaming is no different.
I am striker @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
"It's the fact that she didn't trumpet her identity as a girl (at least at first and not intentionally) that caused such surprise and consternation later on."
Can you really trust what she says? The fact of the matter she complains about negative stereotypes based on her gender but throughout she demoralizes her own beliefs by generalizing men. The fact is not every guy goes to girls and asks for pictures or even remotely talks like that, and not every girl plays games, so I definantly its a self-serving article. I just think when a girl has to dress up for article she's trying to sell more than her words.
Mikael T?vist @ Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM
"She bitches about people asking for her pictures, and then writes an article filled with pictures of her looking sultry in a tight belly-baring shirt and tight jeans."
Is that really a good point? That is a pretty casual and common clothes girls wear, you know. It would have been another thing if she ie wore a mini skirt and showed cleavage.
"Thank goodness the guy gamers don't do this! Can you imagine having to read some gamer guy's blog while dealing with pictures of him in spandex, his belly sticking out of his shirt, making kissy faces for the camera?"
Again, is that a good point? Since when is that a typical "male" thing to do, acting effeminate? :P