Nintendo responds to Epic's Revolution disdain
by Ross Miller 
{ Nov 9th 2005 at 2:00PM }
Remember about a month ago when someone finally spoke out against
Nintendo's Revolution controller? Mark Rein, VP of Epic, in his now infamous words,
stated that "you're gonna see more crappy, cheap,
I-wish-i-hadn't-bought-it gimmick games based around that controller." Well, those comments have not gone unnoticed by
Nintendo.
NOE's Jim Merrick, who has as of late given more
interview than company spokesperson Reggie Fils-Aime, responded with his own opinion, and his own challenge to Mr.
Rein:
Mark has a very narrow section of the business. Epic builds middleware, they're very technically savvy guys, but he doesn't have a Revolution controller, he doesn't have a dev kit, he's talking about something he knows nothing about…So if he'd like to get a dev kit and really dig into it, then I'd be interested to hear what he has to say.
The full interview (via Eurogamer) contains a lot of juicy information, even if it is mostly reaffirming what is already known: Revolution games will be shown at E3, Hideo Kojima is working on a Revolution, and some retro games may only cost "a couple of pounds" to download. Knowing now that Mark Rein has not played with a Revolution controller, do you feel his comments hold less water than they once did?
[Thanks, Princess Zelda]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Jago @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
Everyone who had seen the IGN Round Table video from IGN Live knew that he hadn't held the controller, worked with the SDK or playe any demos. After he was done bitching, 2-3 of the guys asked him if he had any first hand experience and he couldn't answer it.
If he had used the SDK and then still felt that way then he have sounded like an ass.
Maxx @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
Nope..... still going to suck... I love Nintendo but wow. I still say there is NO WAY this system wont have regular controler. This has got to be a secondary thing. This is worse that the POWER GLOVE.
Adam @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
His comments never held any water in the first place. The moment he said that the next generation would be all about graphics, I was finished listening to him objectively. This is a guy who works on game engines, of course he's going to thing it's "all about the graphics". He's not going to have much of a concept of much beyond that.
Now that developers are starting to get the hang of these sort of alternative inputs via the DS, I think the transition to the Revolution's conventions won't be as hard as people think it will be. As always though, the good developers will make good games and the bad developers will make bad games. That won't change regardless of what controller is used.
Cyberclaws @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
Hell yeah they hold less water! His comments don't even hold ANY water now! I've tried all the consoles and picked my favorite AFTER I tried them all out at least!
I know it goes both ways too. I don't really claim that one console is better than the other, but I do have to admit that Nintendo has always provided me with the most games and systems that have entertained my play-style over the years.
I know I feed the fanboy fire sometimes like calling the $ony fanboys, '$ony Jabronis' or the M$ fanboys, "BillBox Butt Bandits' but it's all in fun. I personally hope to get all 3 systems when they come out. That way I will have the best of all worlds. It's just right now and over the years, Nintendo has met my needs and suited my play-style. The others have good games here and there I like to play too. We all win when these console 'wars' heat up.
I wonder when there will be a SonyMicroTendo system coming out?
bd @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
"I love Nintendo but This is worse that the POWER GLOVE."
How about making sense? You should hate nintendo by now then. You haven't even tried the controller, and YES, there will be a "regular" (read: classic) controller too, it was already announced.
mike @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
the power glove is not a nintendo creation it's matel's, and I dare you not to play the next mario, zelda and Metroid !!!.
and It looks like the revolution can run the unreal engine after all , and developpement kits are out there already !!! good news.
jl @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
hold less water? that would imply it held water at all.
In all honesty i have more "crappy, cheap, I-wish-i-hadn’t-bought-it gimmick copy of something previous only with updated graphics or slight tweaks" games based off of the Unreal Engine than I care to admit (Splinter Cell series, Rainbow Six series, Unreal Tournament series)
RON N @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
I agree with you max, I haven't had any hands on experience with the controller but I don't like the way it looks, using two seperate hands in a first person shooter will probably feel a little awkward to us traditinal gamers. Its almost using a controller sitting in front of a computer or using a mouse while playing your Xbox. I think nintendo is using the so called revolutionary controller because the Revolution has nothing else to offer. The only game i would down load are the mario series and 1942, so for me the nintendo hasn't will not and willlint neveeer earn my business.
shiberving @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
Personally I am sick of the same crap released year after year like jl mentioned. Kudos to Nintendo for having the "stones" to try something new... with the DS (which there clearly is a market for), and the upcoming Revolution. I have no opinion on whether or not the new technology is cool or will be better, because like all of you I have not experienced it yet. But I am excited about all of the possibilities.
SiN ViCiOuS @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
It hold more water then the many... 360 sux threads on here and the PS3 rulz threads. Amazing how nin fanboys gruel at this.. He doesnt need to have a hands on to know if it will work or not. If you develop games you know the basic infrastructure on how games fit. He was talking about nitch games made custom for this controller. When you take you car to a machanic and say how much does it costs to replace my transmission he gives you an estimate based on prior jobs, the same goes in this case... you made a couple of games you know the basic schemes.
Clu @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
Anyway Mark seems very narrow minded, and the fact that he brought his X360 dev kit to the IGN panel shows that he’s just a M$ lackey trying to promote their stuff. I think everyone knew he had never tried the rev control. That said, I think he’s right about the crappy, cheap, I-wish-I-hadn’t-bought-it gimmick games, there are many such games for the current gen, and most likely there will be a whole slew for the rev based on some gimmick, but that doesn’t mean I’m ever going to buy them, and you can bet that the awesome, I’m-so-glad-I- bought-it games will be well worth it.
Caveman @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
I just can't wait to hear what Reins is going to try to say on that. I never put anything on his comment anyway. How can you critique something you have never used?
RON N @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
I agree with you max, I haven't had any hands on experience with the controller but I don't like the way it looks, using two seperate hands in a first person shooter will probably feel a little awkward to us traditinal gamers. Its almost using a controller sitting in front of a computer or using a mouse while playing your Xbox. I think nintendo is using the so called revolutionary controller because the Revolution has nothing else to offer. The only game i would down load are the mario series and 1942, so for me the nintendo hasn't will not and willlint neveeer earn my business.
Todd @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
That's my point exactly. I'm a little unsure of the controler, but I can't wait to get my hands on it. Only then can I give you a good review of it. I'm not about to sound like this jerk and start blabbing about how it's going to be this or that.
I remember hearing somewhere on some article about E3 where a developer was behind the idea that better graphics was not the solution. He mentioned talking to someone who was running a demo for a game and he said that the demo looked good but what was the game about? To which the reply was "it can be about anything, but that doesn't really matter." I bet that was Mark. I personally think that's about the worst way to make a game.
Jack @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
This kinda reminds me of my view Nintendo DS, I thought it was stupid, how'd the hell it'll work and now...I think its great handheld system even though I dont own it. So I think he was like me, being ignorant.
Jago @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
Not every game console is equal in regards to the time and effort it takes to develop for...PLUS...it gives developers a CHOICE on what controller they can use. In case you forgot, the remote and nunchuk isn OPTION b/c there is also going to be a standard controller for Gamecube games or for developers who want to use it.
Like some others have said before, Epic is mainly a TECHNOLOGY company (except they build better engines then ID Software.) Until Mark Rein actually works with a Revolution SDK and/or plays some demos with the controller, his opinions have no weight.
Jason @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
color me confused. i saw the original comment made back on the day he said it. i guess i'd want to ask him what his basis for this statement is. i've seen more "crappy, gimmicky, i-wish-i-hadn't-bought-this" released for the current generation of systems. i guess i see the new controller as a complete transformation of what gaming is/could be. i'll reserve judgement until after it's released.
Ed @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
Guys, the closest example that ANYONE can look at as to how well this controller will be used is the touch screen capability of the DS. It's a feature that hasn't been done on any gaming system (besides what, the GameOn device?).
Questions to ask yourself before you go about an opinion:
Do all the games for the DS use the touch screen?
Which games correctly use the touch screen?
Which games for the DS do you wish had no touch screen?
etc...
Touch screen may be completely different, but it's the closest technology we have from Nintendo to base how well the controller feature will be used on the Revolution.
SilverDogg @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
when you saw the video, you also saw him pwn himself!
"how many in here owns a gamecube?"
*a lot of hands in the air*
*thinking for himself: damn, i have to think of something else!"
"oh! i just mean how many owns ONLY a gamecube?"
"see, not that many hands!"
so? most of the hands were up when you asked if they had a gamecube. isnt that the point?
Jago @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
Yea no kidding! He was making it sound like a bad thing if someone owned a particular console. This guy has about as much credibly as Peter Moore...
Gareth @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
Well I've never had gay sex, but I know I would't like it. Those here saying 'you need to try it before you make your decision' are just talking crap IMHO. Those of us with 1. an imagination and 2. the ability to empathise can already work out if we're going to like it or not.
Gareth @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
To all the people who bang on about how great games can be when they use 'original' interfaces like the stylus on the DS, I don't remember playing many fun games on my stylus-equipped PDA in the 2 years that I've had it.
Jago @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
...and PDA's were never designed for games. PDA's were designed as PERSONAL DATA ASSISTANTS for business people. When the last time you heard some guy in a stuffy suit and tie say "I need a game where I can use my stylus" or "I'm dying for a couple games of Meteos."
New Age Citizen @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
Putz...
Just another person who hypes about
quanity not quality.
Gareth @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
And by the look of the DS, that wasn't designed for games either. It looks more like it was designed to be the brunt of jokes if you ask me.
Jago @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
Really now? Have you played games on it? Have you seen the sales of it? It is ahead the PSP in sales and the DS has some juggernaut titles coming out next week and for the holidays as well.
Art Guy @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
I agree with his sentiments. We ARE going to see a bunch of crappy games just based around the gimmick of the controller, it's inevitable. Saying that, as long as the controller works as Nintendo stated, we ALSO will see some amazing games as well, but just like every console those gems will be in the minority. Not every game is going to blow your socks off, and with a controller such as this, there are going to be quite a few titles that are going to try and bank on the controller gimmick as the whole experience without making a complete well rounded game.
Mike - You dare me not to buy the next Mario, Zelda and Metroid? LOL. That's just silly. I own a GameCube, but didn't buy the last Mario, Zelda or Metriod games (I thought the controls on the first Metriod were horrific, even though the game mechanics were top notch). So depending on how they are treated on the Revolution, I might not buy them again. Mario and Zelda just didn't appeal to me this time around. The next Zelda coming out on the Cube looks much better IMO, as I didn't care for how creepy Zelda looked in Wind Walker. But I can see how some would dig it.
calthaer @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
One point I think most people are missing on the whole Mark Rein thing is his vested interest in seeing the Xbox 360 and / or PS3 succeed.
Remember not only that Epic is largely a technology company, but that licensing the Unreal tech costs several hundreds of thousands of dollars. Epic stands to gain much more if the Xbox 360 or PS3 become the dominant console, because the Unreal Engine DOES NOT SUPPORT THE REVOLUTION!
*IF* the Revolution "wins" the console wars, then Mark Rein and his Epic cronies are left with the dwindling PC market and are cut out of the lion's share of the console market - not a position they want to be in.
Mark Rein came off as an idiot and his arguments didn't hold water - but to understand WHY he was acting in such a "fanboi-ish" manner (instead of as a pro, which is how Urquhart and the others on the committee came off), one need look no further than the bottom line.
Robert @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
I don't seem to remember people freaking out when Nintendo:
1. Created the multibutton joypad (NES)
2. Created the shoulder buttons (SNES)
3. Created the analog joystick (N64)
4. Created the (best) wireless controller (GC)
We have to remember that Nintendo has been and always will be the innovator. I wouldn't be surprised to see other companies follow suit with a Revolution style input device - other companies have been copying them for a long time!
Jago @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
"Unreal Engine DOES NOT SUPPORT THE REVOLUTION!"
Just curious (I'm not flaming or anything)...how do you know that? What if developer gets it to work? I wonder if Mark will change is point of view or if he will be stupid enough to still rip on Nintendo.
...and like I said before, a "gimmick" isn't always a bad thing either. Sure there will be some bad titles that use the remote but like others have said, those games will probably come from bad developers. If guys like Peter Molyneux and Hideo Kojima are digging the controller, then we will see some great games for developers outside of Nintendo.
diego @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
Nintendo reminds me of Disney.
Walt is Shigeru
Mario is Mickey
zelda donkeykong metroid is lionking, snow white and fantasia
they are both living legends, but not everyone likes them anymore. oh well
Master Chief @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
Nintendo is garbage. That tv remote just confirms it.
It's going to fail worse than Virtual Boy.
Prof_Chaos @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
First of all, SiN ViCiOuS you are hereby under arrest for assault on the English Syntax (see. post #9).
Second, anybody from within the gaming industry that comments one way or another is going to have some sort of ulterior motive for saying whatever they say. I have always owned Nintendo systems, but I'm admittedly not a hardcore gamer. I play maybe 3-4 hours in a typical week. I will buy a revolution because even if the wand doesn't provide fantastic gameplay (don't beleive it for a second) the shell controller will with typical quality 1P titles. I haven't seen much in the way of games that makes me want to shell out CA$500 for an XBOX 360 and I might be dead before the PS3 comes out at this rate.
Fanboyish posts drives me nuts, but people that are Fanboys while giving other people a hard time for being Fanboys deserve a swift kick to the side of the head.
bd (formerly b) @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
"27. Posted Nov 9, 2005, 3:57 PM ET by Master Chief
Nintendo is garbage. That tv remote just confirms it.
It's going to fail worse than Virtual Boy."
Looks like somebody forgot how Xbox and Gamecube sold the same. Oh wait, Xbox sold just a little more, but it cost them 5 billion. Oh well, microsoft wins... or do they?
jc @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
Robert: "3. Created the analog joystick (N64)"
Dude, what part of the 90's were you born? I know from personal experience that analogue joysticks were around long before the N64. I had a great analogue joystiq for my Apple //c back in 1984... it even had calibration sliders on it.
bd (formerly b) @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
"Robert: "3. Created the analog joystick (N64)"
Dude, what part of the 90's were you born? I know from personal experience that analogue joysticks were around long before the N64. I had a great analogue joystiq for my Apple //c back in 1984... it even had calibration sliders on it."
He was talking about the analog thumbstick; but then again I'm sure you can mention some great innovative and highly memorable games for Mac that fully utilized the "analog joystiq", that would definitely made any attempt to it on a console, right?
jc @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
Here Robert, I had the Mach III
http://www.apple2clones.com/images/pb060018-252.jpg
Give me time, and I can prove you wrong on some of your other so called "claims" as well...
jc @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
bd, sorry you missed out on Castle Wolfenstein, Choplifter and LodeRunner (to name just three). For the record, the Apple 2 was before the Macintosh.
Robert is quoted as saying: "3. Created the analog joystick (N64)" He is wrong.
And you saying: "He was talking about the analog thumbstick; but then again I'm sure you can mention some great innovative and highly memorable games for Mac that fully utilized the "analog joystiq", that would definitely made any attempt to it on a console, right?" also makes you wrong as well.
What part of these statements do you want clarification on?
Art Guy @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
bd (formerly b) - How about Test Drive?
I had an analog joystick for my Apple back in the old days. When I wasn't fighting off the dinosaurs and trying to make fire I would play Test Drive and some flight sims. There were a few more, but it was over 20 years ago and the names escape me.
Chris @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
*shrugs* I have to admit to being INCREDIBLY uninterested in the next gen consoles from Sony and Microsoft. I own a PS2 - owned it since its release in South Africa. I also own a Cube. Over the last year I've spent more on my Cube than PS2 as I've felt it has offered more "fun" titles over the "same same same".
As it stands, I'm upgrading my PC (which has had some major neglect this console generation) because of my total lack of interest in the "next gen" beyond the Revolution (which I cannot wait to get a hold of).
The Xbox360 and PS3 mark my return to PC gaming (I just hope Silent Hill continues being converted to PC).
calthaer @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
"Just curious (I'm not flaming or anything)...how do you know that? What if developer gets it to work? I wonder if Mark will change is point of view or if he will be stupid enough to still rip on Nintendo." - Jago
...I assume your internet browser can access Google?
http://www.unrealtechnology.com
Jago @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
jc get off your damn high horse already...that's a freakin JOYSTICK plain and simple.
He is referring to a THUMBstick...theres a BIG difference there and what you can do with both.
Jago @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
#39:
It doesn't that it doesn't support the Revolution, it just says it supports the X360 and PS3. Until the Revolution is officially unveiled, you won't really hear much about what is being supported byu the system and the SDK. The same happened with the X360 and PS3.
Basically you are drawing your own conclusion based on nothing.
Art Guy @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
Jago - LOL. The old "If you can't win, change the rules" philosophy. He wrote:
"[Nintendo] Created the analog joystick (N64)"
Which had demonstratively been proven wrong.
Jago @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
I know that...I'm just trying to clarify what he was actually trying to say since jc wasn't able to figure it out on his own.
Sup Sailors? @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
Personally I am sick of the same crap released year after year like jl mentioned
-----
You're not alone.. watch the IGN pres recently by Reggie, he talks about the stats showing the shitty games market. Basically, the market grew then shrunk and is now equivalent (by some measures) to the state it was back in the NES days.
The NES days.
Nintendo saw those stats and thought.. wait a minute.. we're in a dying market. MS and Sony, they probably have the same stats, and thought.. er.. if this market implodes, we'll still have movies and music (well, another company has music..)
And the sales of the DS and the strategy of cheap for developers and backing off on ultimate hardware is really producing some amazing results.
The bottom line, the Rev is going to be alot like the DS, just with next gen graphics, and THAT is going to hurt Sony/MS in the worst way: they can only compete with graphics. Just like the dying PSP.
Jago @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
NO SH!T Sherlock. I know that...and I was just trying to correct him by saying it was the THUMBstick and not the joystick. All jc was interested in doing was making himself seem superior and smarter instead of pointing out what he actually meant.
Alex K. @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
"how many in here owns a gamecube?"
*a lot of hands in the air*
*thinking for himself: damn, i have to think of something else!"
"oh! i just mean how many owns ONLY a gamecube?"
"see, not that many hands!"
this guy just really was self-pwned in this entire video.
what if he asked how many of them owned ONLY a PS2. It'd be about 0, just like it was for the gamecube, because most people have 2 consoles (and at a gamers' roundtable like that, most people have all 3)
it's the same crap that he makes for himself when he disses the nintendo revolution technology without even trying it. i can't say whether the revolution has a great controller or not, but dismissing it so quickly is absurd. and i think the revolution would be the perfect console to run an unreal game, not for the graphics, but for the GAMEPLAY, which is really what matters.
i think, if done right, the revolution controller could be so great for first person shooters; it could be the best way to play besides a mouse and keyboard.
bd (formerly b) @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
Nintendo did invent the thumbstick.
"Castle Wolfenstein, Choplifter and LodeRunner (to name just three)."
Was the joystick for these games analogically programmed? Did you even need the joystiq to fully appreciate those games?
You did need the thumbstick to appreciate most N64 games. Certainly not for wolfenstein, because I played it too with a keyboard, and it's not like you needed precise movement; only the most recent FPS (well, the ones since GoldenEye) require you to be very precise, specially on aiming or when you are walking through a thin lava/spikes/pit/ corridor; you didn't really need to aim precisely in Wolfenstein because it wasn't possible to rotate your view up or down.
Also, we are talking about consoles here, not computers. And again, what you show is not a thumbstick, so you've proven nothing.
jc @ Dec 18th 2005 10:09PM
jago, sorry to offend you... or anyone else. I am not interested in "making himself (myself) seem superior and smarter", I was interested, however in making the point that Nintendo did not invent the joystick, as Robert had stated.
If he meant somthing different, then maybe he should have said somthing different.
As for the analogue joystick / Apple comment: "Was the joystick for these games analogically programmed? Did you even need the joystiq to fully appreciate those games?" The answer is YES. If you played them, you would agree.
Looking back I remember using the Intellivision controller with my thumb, ColecoVision had a controller you could use as a joystick or thumb stick... even the vectrex was thumb controllable.
For the record, I was one of the first people in line for the memory expansion module (and DK64 game) for the N64. I also loved every minute I spent with PerfectDark on that system. I do respect what Nintendo has done for videogames. But I also know better than to think they invented things that can clearly be proven that they didn't.
Jago, I respect that you have your own opinion. I even agree with some of the things you have to say. However, you can't change the rules of an arguement halfway through... just because somebody 'meant' somthing other than what they said.