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Reader Comments (84)

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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who cares...the guy is a fag...you can never rely on critics to say a movie or game is good or bad, try it out.

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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People here are missing the point by concentrating on storyline.

Storyline is just a part of great art. There have been wonderful movies with not-so wonderful plots, and there have been thousands of terrible movies with great plots.

Just because some videogames have great plots does not make them art.

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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Mright. So games are inferior because they are different?
How about that? Painting is an inferior form of art because there is inherently no real storytelling. To my knowledge, no one in or out of the field has ever been able to cite a painting worthy of comparison with the great dramatists, poets, filmmakers, novelists and composers.
That would be a very moronic thing to say, and something nobody would pay any attention to.

I'd argue that it's the very same inherent differences he's talking about that /potentially/ make games a very interesting form of art. Namely, the interactivity opens up artistic possibilities that are only beginning to be tapped into. And as somebody pointed out, there were very few masterpieces in the first 20 years of movies.
I personally consider Jade Empire to be a work of art. Probably nothing I would compare to Shakespeare or other masters but leave it some time...
Dismissing it as a waste of time just proves he doesn't understand what he's talking about. Don't tell me what I should do of my time and I'll do the same with you, ok?

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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"Video games die out, end of story."

I'd be willing to bet people will keep playing versions of Tetris and Pacman as long as we exist.

And we all know for sure they'll be playing the newest version of Madden =p

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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Quick thing on my timelessness comment.

Tetris was made in 1985. Twenty years ago. The best example for timelessness is a game twenty years old. Frankly, I'm older than that. And nothing younger than a twenty-one year old should be considered timeless. Mario is a bit older, at 1981. Still, only 24 years, and right now, the original mario brothers is considered retro. Great a game as it is, I find it hard to believe fifty years from now people will play it for any other reason than a history lesson.

Do not misunderstand me. It is great, great entertainment. But Tetris and Mario Bros. are revered only by the older generation that played it...how many young kids play the original tetris now? Not too many. Can the same be said for certain movies? Of course. But Twelve Angry Men, if given a chance, will always remain a wonderful clash of wills. Its affect will be no less strong than to the people who watched it the first day it came out. Tetris will always be blocks on a screen, whose simple allure will have faded away under the ability of blowing up someone's head with the click of a mouse.

Fifteen years from now, the original Halo will be retro, and be reduced to a niche group of people playing it on emulators. Fifteen years from now, Harry Potter books will still fill every bookshelf in every elementary school. Tolkien is still ridiculously popular, and he wrote the Hobbit in 1937. He didn't become popular until the 1960's. Name me a single game whose popularity skyrocketed 23 years AFTER being made. Heck, show me a video game whose popularity skyrocketed after two years.

The examples of FF6 compared to Shakespeare...seriously? Will there be books analyzing the moral contrasts between Kefka and Sabin? Discussions and seminars about the significance of the color pink in Terra's esper form? Or essays detailing the beauty of such lines as "I will destroy everything! I will create a monument to non-existence"?

Sorry, but I'll take quotes like "(Life) is a tale told by an idiot, full and sound and fury, signifying nothing."

Funny, that represents a lot of video games....

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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who cares what some fat fuck who waves his thumb around all day says. that shit head is just pissed that games are hurting movies now or maybe its because theres so many shit movies out there that hes just pissed. I can bet he doesnt know shit about games so fuck him.

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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Siskel was the better man and what does this old man know anyway about games?

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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Much as I (almost) hate to say it, I think that I agree with the gist of Ebert's comments, but not his rationale or reasoning. Many people have already commented on the problem with trying to compare two different media using the same criteria (is one's experience of a sculpture, mandated by authorial control?), but one thing that David has perhaps alluded to is the reletivism of cultural experience.

Simple example - your parents listened to music that your grandparents probably hated as atonal trash, crude, rude, and scandalous. Now, I'm sure that most of the music that YOU listen to is considered by your parents to be atonal trash, crude, rude, and scandalous. If you're into your 30s now, you probably fondly remember music from your formative years of your early / late teens - thus the rising popularity of retro 70s and 80s culture and music stations ("Listen to the Golden Oldies of the 80s!").

So, while I appreciate that video games are probably not "art" using Ebert's definition of art, its probable that the "gamer generation" has created their own definition of "art", as a participative experience, and video games - especially the better ones - fit quite nicely into that definition.

That being said, I agree that the original Deus Ex was one of the few games that I've played that really approach "art" for me.

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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Come on david; it's not meant to be taken literally, but you have to admit that final fantasy is (or could be) one fine piece of literature. Perhaps it just needs a little polish, that's all.

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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There will never be a game that puts a human face on child abuse, the plight of child war refugees, illustrates the moral quandry that is euthanasia or makes a compelling story out of the struggle for ex-junkies to rebuild their lives. All of which have been illustrated in film this year (Mysterious Skin, Turtles Can Fly, Million Dollar Baby + Little Fish respectively).

They are different mediums sure, but the truth remains that you struggle infinitely to make compelling character drama with a video game. There is potential in games to make an immersive experience beyond that which cinema can give you, but I've never had a game give me the escapist thrill that the LOTR battles have given me, or a thrill as visceral as the Death Star trench run. And you know what? You can PLAY those last two scenarios in game adaptions of the films!

Ebert has a point about authorial control there as well. Remember in A New Hope in the trench run when Luke had to pull back on the throttle to let some TIEs past him, only he lost control and slammed into the side.. then had to do it again. And like the third time he did it he made it further along, then like Darth Vader was behind him and he did the throttle back trick a couple of times, then Darth got shot and a voice over from Han Solo said.. some crap I can't remember.. then Obi Wan told Luke to use the force & Luke was like 'oh piss off, I'll use the targeting computer cos it's near impossible to do it without'.

You'd think the point here would be to stop making comparisons between video games & film, but games keep aspiring to be more 'cinematic' and better use the language of film whilst talking about how it's bigger than the film industry. Hence parrallels get drawn, even wrongfully.

Back to the real argument tho, if games are really inherently inferior to film & literature.. at this point yes. Games don't have the story telling tools, visual, literal or human (ie actors), to tell stories/invoke emotions as vividly film & literature do.

And if you think that a three minute death cutscene in a 50hr game proves otherwise you are completely kidding yourselves.

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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Ebert is simply sticking to the close minded dogma that affects many non-gamers of his age. He thinks that gamers are uneducated bums, as are game developers. He is 100% wrong. While there are completely uncreative games out there, i'm talking to you madden, there are also games that, while not art in the traditional sense, are highly artistic in their innovative style. Just to name a few are Katamari Damichi, Colussus, and Wolf. Even though there's a plethora of completely shitty movies and books out there, Ebert considers those to be artforms. Ebert is close-minded and does not want to except games, so he never will. He thinks he is above any gamers, and so our opinions don't matter to him.

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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The fact that Tetris is relatively young isn't indicative of whether it is timeless or not. A game of tetris is just as fun now as it was in '85. The novelty value of graphics or physics isn't needed.

Also, I'm sure you would be surprised by how many people still play Tetris. If one of you computer-savy guys out there could get the number of hits online versions of Tetris receive, I'm sure they would be high. Most likely higher than the amount of people who have seen Twelve Angry Men. Personally, I had to look it up to know what movie you were talking about =p You said "[Tetris'] simple allure will have faded away under the ability of blowing up someone's head with the click of a mouse." Well, couldn't the same be said for Twelve Angry Men in the sense that most people today would rather watch a cheesy action movie?

Video games don't go unnoticed like The Hobbit did because there aren't as many games being released as there are books. Every week a few games come out and everyone that wants to buy them has an opportunity to. Video games and Movies differ from books and music for this reason. And I agree when you say Halo will become a niche. Only because I wouldn't consider Halo timeless.

I'm not implying Tetris is of the same intellectual quality of a great literary work, obviously. I'm just saying it will always be enjoyable to anyone in the same way a game of checkers will.

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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To Zach:

Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty is all you need.

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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Art (paintings, words, movies and sculpture) have the ability to comment on the world as stanislavski (Lee Strasburgs forerunner) pointed out 'art immitating life or life immitating art'. Movies as an extension of theatre has a critical ability to do so, video gaming (read our term to describe our passions!!) by its very nature cannot. [hold on, read on]

Point one above
point two below

Authorial control is predicated by its medium (understood resolutely here), but computer games (bar MMORPGS and the ilk) offer us inter-alia (term = amongst other things), not true (world) interactivity. That is a pre-determined environment, a sand box yes but you cant build a house made out of sand and play in it for a few days now can you. [calm down]

Twine the two above, this is what Ebert is saying, and this galls me...

A vicarious experience according to him then does not have the ability to educate and entertain us. Because of the environment and the clear direction of the author our (higher cognitive) responses are merely at the reactionary level and thus not bettering ourselves. Pardon me for digressing but thats utter codswallop...

As a young medium there is a long way to go before ALL issues can be dealt with BUT...

The God Building Genre does not make us more civilised of course it does. It allows us to experience a domain of knowledge that would be either too complicated to appreciate or be closed off to appreciate, within that alone empathy for the little people is paramount. And when I play GTurismo or BurnoutX, I aspire to be able to drive the real cars, for I make sure that I entertain myself and do world things in order to obtain that.

A sensitive issue like peadophilia seems utterly removed but look at Kill Bill, using Manga (comic art) to explicate such a horrendous scene. Now please dissassociate any reasoing of vicarious next-gen peado sims from this (although if such things came to the fore, it would be a sad reflection of our society) but a 'game' that tries to mimic a 'crime thriller' where the protagonists search is done through a HL2 engine, with the correct ammount of sensitivity and euro/american (not japanese, no offence MSG2) direction, then I feel the medium is ready to tackle these subjects. Sorry if its painful for some or they may think im a bit off, but we have people (all types of people, with all types of histories, and thats key) entering the industry and that is only a good thing as young medium becomes older medium.

I learnt my philosophical morality structure from the Transformers comic book (which made me study it more later), my cousin will get a PS3 and I am sure he will have something simmilar from this.

Oh and art is also about beauty, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder, to me Another World on the Amiga is a piece of beauty, nostalgia or not, my POV.

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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I think too much credit is given to more traditional forms of art. And I'm pretty sure it's because of an absolutely overwhelming desire of the previous generation to conserve, to make society into what they want it to be, namely the same as sixty years ago. Mostly anybody who has grandparents will know exactly what I mean.

Nobody wants to watch silent movies anymore besides old people. Old stuff is put in libraries because of old people. A lot of the classics in literature and film are only as valueable as the critics say they are, and, you guessed it, they're mostly very old. Ok, this is putting it a bit bluntly, I admit.

Video games are simply not recognised by them or anybody else as important cultural classics. If they would, Another World for example, like Technogeek mentioned, would receive much more attention today.

Already all sorts of primitive "video game museums" are popping up everywhere. I'm pretty sure that fifty years from now, this phenomenon will have grown enormously, and every single one of us will install emulators on our grandchildrens' PC's to show them Super Mario Bros 3 or Ikaruga or whatever.

It's in the eye of the beholder, indeed.

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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Who thinks we should clog Ebert's email accounts with hate mail? Just kidding but you gotta think how stupid he sounds with video games sales overtaking hollywood.

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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Ebert's right because film, literature, and comic books are purer forms of storytelling. The creator has total control of how the story is told. It's not interactive. The creator is forcing you to see things a certain way. As soon as you make the game interactive and require some element of fun in the interaction, the creator loses some control on the medium to deliver his message. If the interactive element of the game is no longer fun, for instance, it becomes difficult to convey your initial message.

Sure, a game can move you, but I would argue that it moves you because of the storytelling elements in the cinematics and not so much the interactive elements. There are likely exceptions to this, but on the whole, the medium of video games does not allow for easily communicating a message to the recipient.

It's possible that games and the language of games will evolve and it will begin to catch up to other media, but at the moment, it's not there.

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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nk makes a good point about younger generations generally not appreciating what's come before without a certain amount of exposure and/or education (in whatever field is concerned), but let's be wary of bashing older people because they're old. Please keep personal attacks (on nk or whomever) to a minimum as well. Thank you!

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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Regardless of what Roger Ebert's qualifications (or lack thereof) are; his point is absolutely valid. By its very nature, a video game is just that- A GAME. The only creative expression occurs in the design and presentation. Read all of the reviews for games. What do they focus on? Presentation, Graphics, Sound, etc. The only hint at any kind of an emotional connection is: Fun Factor. Football has a fun factor; it is not art. Having played video games since nearly the beginning, gaming is finally within grasp of its potential as a powerful new medium. But it is failing miserably in one critical area. All classic media art and literature becomes so by establishing a meaningful emotional connection with its audience. Video games have failed to do this. Sure they're fun; so is a roller coaster. I may admire a roller coaster's design (like a good game). But I'm seldom compelled to go back again for more after completing it, when I can get the same rush from a newer and faster one that's on the horizon. All of these game developers and worshipers are now talking about the cinematic experience, thats thanks to the advent of state of the art graphics and animation. But if you can't make an emotional investment in your main characters and what they are going through, who the hell cares?

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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My only comment: is that a real picture of Roger Ebert? Cause it looks prerendered.

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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I'd agree with Ebert that video games can't be as sophisticated as movies or animation due to the loss of authorial control. I'm sure we've all experienced when a game wrenches control of the story off us because we've done things the game doesn't expect.

However, that doesn't mean it can't be art. Movies themselves were considered a novelty until someone demonstrated their potential for storytelling. I doubt games will ever be as good as movies at storyteling, but the huge advantage is that games are a lot closer to fine art - painting and sculture and the like - than one realises. Games are about experiences, and the best art is often about the same thing - not what story the artist is telling, but a moment in time or a thought or an experience. Games are closer to art than one realises.

The problem, though, is that you can't get too unpleasant in a game. If you want to evoke frustration or fear or desperation in the player for artistic purposes, you run the risk of losing the player. There's been some research into detecting the moods of people from how they perform actions (like playing a game) that seems like it'd be profitable.

Also, 'game' is really starting to get on my nerves as a terminology. When you have to start using oxymoronic terms to describe something ('serious games', anyone?), something needs to be done.

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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As far as the stories in videogames go, film and literature are the superior medium. As far as film and literature being a superior art form, Ebert is way off his wagon.

There is a linear nature to film and literature that allow for a high level of predictability to what one's experience will be like when one watches a film or reads a novel. Even then, critics usually don't all agree as to whether book is worth reading or film worth watching. We all have our likes and dislikes. The same can be said of videogames. Not all are worth playing but not everyone will enjoy a game that another has come to enjoy.

Another thing that videogames have in common with film and literature is that each one is offering an experience. In that regard, videogames will offer a superior experience in certain genres. While film will have an advantage in drama and comedy, videogames offer its players an experience far more exciting than any Bruce Willis action movie. Movies also fall short in terms of a sense of betrayal that you feel when a NPC that you've been playing with decides to stab you in the back. An example of that would be in Wing Commander III.

Movies and literature also can never offer its viewers and readers the visceral experience that can only come from playing a game. This comes from the fact that players are actually involved with what happens in a game. Movies and books are far more of a passive experience.

That said, I have a love for all of these mediums but I approach them differently. To compare them side by side would be like comparing tires to furniture.

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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Video games will never be able to match the story-telling of movies simply because there is less authorial control, as Ebert said. But movies and books will never match video games in their potential for immersion for the same reason. In video games, you make the choices. You are the protagonist, and it is much more immersive. Reading a book is just reading ink printed on paper. Any thing you create is never even given an actual visual form. Its all in your head. Movies are a bit better in immersion, but you are still just watching a bunch of other people do things. You have no input in it, and as a result, you feel a bit disconnected. Also in terms of working brain power, most games surpass literature and movies, mainly because there are puzzles and tasks you need to complete to progress. There are none of the sort with films or books.

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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"The only creative expression occurs in the design and presentation."

I absolutely disagree. I can't even imagine how you came to that conclusion, since it's very obvious that for many of the most highly rated games, a lot of time and effort is put in designing gamplay.

If you ever read any interviews with game designers like Will Wright or Miyamoto, you'll see that most of the discussion revolves around it, rather than graphics or sound. Are you going to tell these people that their work isn't really creative at all?

This is directed at anyone who has said similar things, btw.


Rather than the interactivity detracting from the art, I believe the art can be in the interactivity itself, but people like Ebert (or some people here) don't even seem to want to give this idea the light of day.

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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I have to admit that I view videogame storylines with lesser expectations than those of film. It's a simple fact that, while there is a short list of games that put real effort to creating a cohesive story, most are either excessively simple (as is the case with most fps games) or have storylines reminiscent of the babbling of an addict in need of a fix (like MGS).

The fact that there is such a short list of games that have a comprehensive story leaves us less to consider when making an argument against Mr. Ebert. Of the short list of games that do have a big story, it seems tough enough for its writers to make it cohesive yet still linked to the gameplay. It's extremely rare among those games that their story be well written to the standards of film and literature.

While I’m sure that there are those that enjoyed the story in Metal Gear Solid games, I always considered it the weakest part of the game. While the game plays very well, its story is little more than an obsessive rant. If you put that up against great literature or film, such as The Lord of the Rings, you get a great story vs. a long-winded rant in a videogame.

That said, I've always liked the way some stories mix into the gameplay. Splinter Cell does an excellent job of this. It never tries to create a big story as much as keep a story going while you play the game. Keeping that in mind, it's the perfect way to tell a story in a videogame without trying to compete with other mediums such as film.

One of the better stories in videogames comes from the Legacy of Kain games. Though some of the games may fall short in how they play, the story is comprehensive and compelling (much thanks to excellent voice actors). At times, it actually becomes part of the way some of its games play. Even so, its story falls short of great film.

The simple fact is that a great story that could compete with film in a videogame would actually hurt the game. It would take away from its interactivity. While film and literature may be better at telling a comprehensive story, videogames create situations to endure or survive and worlds to explore or manipulate. It's impossible to compare the two on a level playing field.

When looking at videogames vs. film or literature, it's a case of "apples and oranges."

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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Wait, isn't there a creative artistic element in almost anything that people create? Rollercoasters have their fans, as do classic American hamburgers. The case can even be made that fast-food "chefs" are exhibiting a certain skill and artistic flair when putting together their orders (however close they hew to the big chain's standard operating procedures).

You can say that there's artistry and that there's craftsmanship, but is not craftsmanship the ability to display a certain form of artistic skill as well? Whether you're building a new library or a ramshackle go-cart, is there not a particular beauty that only fans of the artform or genre really appreciate? Even scientists can exhibit a certain art in performing laboratory experiments.

Art is considered to be many different things to many different people, and each form's adherents would scoff if you told them that their time spent pursuing their preferred diversions would not make them "more cultured, civilized and empathetic." Video games are no exception.

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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Game play mechanics are part of the presentation. Regardless of the many different combos or possible variations of moves a player may execute during play or interaction with the environment, he is still being dictated his limitations by the designers of the game. Even if the possible variations become countless, it is still a rigid mechanical endeavor devoid of any profound meaning to the player, without a rich literal background to provide depth to the experience. The exceptional effort and resources devoted to the creation these aspects of the games has completely overshadowed the need for the content that is necessary for to build an emotional foundation for the player to connect to; leaving the only motivation for the player to be strictly intellectual or compulsive. These morivations have their merits, but they seldom resonate on the more visceral and penetrating levels of the human condition.

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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If Video games are art. At this point the very best is about as good as a production of Cats performed by tone-deaf large breasted mongoloids.

I love em but saying FF = Hamlet is ridiculous and displays an ignorance of real literature. Entertainment != Art.

The real comparison is Video Games with TV, both are entertainment vehicles with rare rare rare moments of brilliance. The best we can hope for are games that give us similar experiences to good art; introspection, transcenance, understanding of the human condition.. but even then they will not be that same.

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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Games are art if you define art as a creative expression of a human or group of humans. When you look and play a game you are experiencing a work of art made by a group of people, much like when you watch a movie. Everything in the game was put in there by someone, even the mistakes... show me a work of art that doesn't have mistakes in it? TO err is human and all that...

Human expression is art, it's what seperates us from the monkeys...

In terms of games instilling emotions... come on... thats what games are good at, more than any other medium. How many times have you felt the exhiliration of surpassing a tough obstacle, or the wonder when first encountering a new one? Sadness is an emotion that is not as prevelant in games... why? because usually you can always restart... In PSO when the game would crash and destroy your memory card - losing your character with 200 hours worth of growth... that was sad.... Aeris death in FF is counter example, where it's nothing you can do to change that event from happening... therefor you become sad...

Sadness loses it's effect when you can change the incident that triggered it...

perhaps games shouldn't allow you to restart from the last continue point?



Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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Ebert has no idea what he is talking about. When Titanic came out, I hated it. When Aries of FF7 died, I cried and to this day, i feel sad every time I hear her theme. On kingdom hearts, when sora left kairi and "simple and clean" began to play, I teared up. Yes, video games have been a large part of my life but movies have been a big part of Ebert's life. Every one has their own opinons and, unfortunatly, Ebert and I don't see things the same way. Also, I have never spent 150+ hours watching a movie.

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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"The problem, though, is that you can't get too unpleasant in a game. If you want to evoke frustration or fear or desperation in the player for artistic purposes, you run the risk of losing the player."

EXACTLY. We gamers are wanting to have our cake and eat it, too. We cry foul when someone suggests we don't measure up, but we're taking no steps to show game designers we'll take on a "game" experience like Schindler's List.

I'm reminded of the Chris Crawford article in the Escapist a couple months ago:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/12/4

See the quote from his Dragon Speech essay:

"Perhaps their reaction is best summarized by a review of Balance of the Planet appearing in Computer Gaming World. The reviewer noted that 'it is the closest thing to 'art' to be sold as computer entertainment...but it is just not fun...if the game is not fun, it simply wouldn't be right to endorse it...' A more explicit rejection of my dream cannot be imagined. Here we have an acknowledgement that Balance of the Planet is some kind of art, yet the review refuses to endorse it because it isn't fun --; as if fun were the sine qua non of art!"

I haven't played Balance of the Planet, but it sounds very much like that SHOULD have been a Schindler's List for the video game world. That film wasn't fun. Nobody expected it to be.

This is why I agree with another of merus' comments:

"Also, 'game' is really starting to get on my nerves as a terminology. When you have to start using oxymoronic terms to describe something ('serious games', anyone?), something needs to be done."

GAME. A pastime. An amusement. A hobby. An entertainment. A distraction. A time-waster. No matter how many games (video or otherwise) are time-honoured today, they will always be viewed as inferior activities to "more productive" work. Chess doesn't put food on the table.

Gamers need to take some responsibility for their own perceptions of what they're trying to defend. Take David's comments to heart; go download Balance of the Planet and make IT popular several years after its release -- then inundate Chris Crawford's mailbox to get him creatively rejuvenated. Introduce the idea of long-term creative investment to gaming. Introduce the idea of a "game" experience that is NOT FUN, but VALUABLE. Supply and demand. If we yell and scream for a Schindler's List, a Saving Private Ryan, a Monster, somebody will see it as worth their while to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

And when we get it, refer to it as something different to imply its elevation, like "film" versus a "movie". Eliminating the space between "video" and "game" doesn't count.

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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Have at it.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/botp2004/

Posted: Dec 18th 2005 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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When movies came out, they were nothing but a cheap novelty for the masses, with people queueing up to watch the Lumieres wall being demolished in reverse. 20 years after the invention of film, we were still getting films like "The Birth of a Nation", which, aside from any moral issues it has, does not even remotely stand up to todays pictures. Fans of the stage decried the movies as a disgrace fit only for the petty entertainment of the working classes, right up until the 1920's. I do not believe that the greatest works of Miyamoto and Kojima, which we have yet to see, will ever be forgotten or seen as entertainment which wastes your time. I believe that these very early games will come to be seen like the pioneering films of Eisenstein, which set the formulas for films even now.
Plus, Nintendo pwns eberts a$$

Posted: Jan 3rd 2006 2:16AM (Unverified) said

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I have to agree that no game has reach the level of art yet. However, hopefully with the next generation it will do so. I love MGS, all 3 of them. They have all evoked emotion but that doesn't make them art. They made be equal to a good action film. But relationg MGS or FF to Shakespeare is utterly ridiculous. There is no subtlety like that of Hamlet or Macbeth in either of these series or any game/series. I believe the comparions with TV is spot on. You'll have an OZ once in a while, but mostly you have Laguna Beach. I think the next generation Grand Theft Auto may have the best chance of becoming art. Obviously GTA's cinematics have never been up to par with MGS or the like, but the whole experience of GTA is a parody of life. If it can be polished and perfected, it may transcend into art.



I also think the comparison between Call of Duty and Saving Private Ryan is a little ridiculous. Call of Duty barely has any central story other than WW2. There are a few characters, but none are made to matter and the gore isn't up to par with Saving Private Ryan. The relation from the movie to a video game should at least be a video game with a plot.

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