Certain "highly anticipated" Xbox 360 title filling four discs worth of space
We'd figured as early as February that Microsoft would forgo placing a next-gen optical drive in the Xbox 360 for a myriad of acceptable reasons, but we couldn't help but keep the nagging issue of disc space from lingering in the back of our minds. From the high-res textures fit for an HDTV to the higher polygon counts befitting a next-gen console, the space available on standard DVDs is suddenly in increasingly short supply. So far we've yet to see an Xbox 360 game take up more than a single disc, but if the most recent issue of Game Informer is any indication, Microsoft may soon be sweating their decision to pass up on a next-gen storage format.
The issue takes an in-depth look at all the features of the Xbox 360, and while GI is generally quite taken with the 360's performance, functionality, and especially its controller, they unearth some unsettling details regarding the console's diminuitive storage capacity. According to Game Informer, nearly every developer they talked to at X05 expressed difficulties fitting their launch titles onto a single disc. One unnamed yet "highly anticipated" game in particular is said to currently occupy a full four 9Gb DVDs. Elder Scrolls IV immediately jumps to mind [UPDATE: or perhaps not, duuur], but any of those Japanese RPGs that Microsoft is always touting are also likely candidates. Microsoft's J Allard downplayed the storage issues, citing that improved compression rates in the future will allow much more data to be held on an individual disc, and that the pre-launch crunch forced many current 360 titles to use space far more inefficiently than they would have otherwise.
Microsoft has already hinted that a future add-on may be developed to allow the 360 to handle high-def movies, but that the device would be unrelated to gaming. Should the status quo remain unchanged, that means that Xbox 360 owners will be stuck with standard DVD media until at least the next console generation, circa 2010. And, obviously, just because a title is relegated to multiple discs doesn't mean that it can't be a great game—just look at Final Fantasy VII. But in this modern era, will consumers still put up with swapping discs mid-play? Games which are linear, such as Halo, may have little to lose by opting for a multi-disc format, but games which are, er… cubic, such as Grand Theft Auto, may take a significant hit in their ease of playability. All told, did Microsoft make the right decision when choosing the 360's optical drive? If not, would they risk segmenting their fanbase by releasing a newer, HD-DVD enabled box in the future?











Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
tadra @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
so i have been reading the posts over the last couple of days for pure entertainment rather than content. truly the technical blah blah crap is way over my head. anyways,i am gathering that the big "debate" is over swapping discs b/c of game size. (funny how with boys it is always about size) but truly who cares! most likely by the time that you would need to swap discs in the game you ass is prolly all tingly from sitting there for so long and a pee break is sounding pretty good anyways. god forbid you actually have to get up! yeah so not a big deal.
i enjoy a good debate as much as much as the next but seriously when did it turn into an "i am right you are wrong *insert various name calling here* and you have to agree because i am the smartest in the world *muscle flex*" kind of thing?
quite frankly you all sound like 8 year olds with a slightly larger than average vocabulary. given that i work with kids the "you are not playing my way so i am taking my ball and going home" also fits but is more of a 5 year old defense.
oh and m3mnoch if you won 5$ from ben where is my half? :)
ps your son says hi
bd @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
Mark B,
I’ve been busy, that’s why it took me long, but anyway, thanks for your comments…
Nick’s posts can be resumed like this:
"Some developers can solve the disc problems with compression algorithms and dynamic scenarios, and I will assure you that everyone can do it, despite the news of pros already struggling, even when the media needs to last at least 4 more years. I won't admit that my argument isn't enough to solve the problem, and I will neither address the other points (or will address them once but when replied again, will just ignore your response) because the point is bragging about my supposed knowledge, and I still admit that you are partially right, although not totally; that would damage my ego, because I feel like I’m doing a favor by educating all of you despite the fact that you didn’t ask (maybe I don’t have anything better to do) . When I realize that you don’t buy it, I will rather claim that you are contradicting others and that your logic has flaws, without reasons to back that up, so I can get out of here with dignity, sort of."
m3mnoch’s posts can be resumed like this:
"Whatever Nick says, your wrong. I change easily when provoked about a grammar mistake (because I originally came here with an attitude; an action that I consider mature enough for a dude my age) to the point of making the false assumption that anyone that does it is a grammarian (and steals sources of mine, because I think it is impossible for everyone to have found every link I posted before I did, especially when used again!), as opposed to just doing it for the fun and sake of pissing me off. I also don't like to be told the harsh truth of my reality, so I will think I'm being personally attacked if told the apparent truth, and I will, as a defense mechanism, get to the point of making up a story about how I was just having fun here making bets to compensate for my lack of productivity and intelligence to address and be entirely relevant to every topic (works perfect to deviate the attention off my false assumptions).
I will also assume that you don't know everything (I think) I know because you don't want to bother with meaningless details, so I will leave thinking whatever I want about everyone without reasons to back my claims, and that I won coz your all n00bs and you suck; after all, I must have *won* (again, check my level of thought) considering that some people change their ways of writing just for the sake of originality, as opposed to actually “making sense” thanks to me (which is what I think though; remember, I love to make false assumptions!). Hypocritically enough, I think I change people’s ways (just because again, I assume that others can’t be original each time they post) when my ways are so easily changed: just correct my grammar once and see how I react; you’ll laugh your ass off of me for changing me forever (but I won’t admit, let me say!).
On a last note, I think that my behavior is appropriate for a person that has supposedly been posting on the net since 1988 and has a child, despite the fact that I might as well act like I was born long after 1988; you know, that’s why I sometimes insult with all caps and have a page of how stupid Sony is lolzers."
He’ll come back, if only to read because the only thing left for him, like his last post, is rant; worthless.
snort @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
Hey bd,
Dont worry about it. I won $10 because I bet my buddy that memnoch would bet his buddy $5 that he could make some bullshit up. Yeah, I won the $10 because I said that no one would believe memnochs bullshit and I was right. Sweet $10 in my pocket. Thanks memnoch! You were so easy, it almost makes me feel guilty.
Maeldron @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
Mark B: It's funny how you pointed out the bd made good points to back up his arguments but I guess your eyes froze up trying to also sort through all the BS he was spewing and failed to realize that both m3mnoch and Nick backed up their point of views with actually facts not just fanboy rhetoric. But I do know how you fanboys like to stick together so I understand you backing up bd.
bd: You held a conversation with yourself that last post, kinda impressive in a sad sort of way...I applaud you (clap, clap)
You said that no one here asked for Nick to educate them and he just took it upon himself to do so...well people are hear reading about this aren't they, I guess those people felt the need to be educated, he could be wrong it what he was saying but hey that is what these forums are for, to express an opinion or thoughts or facts on a given subject. What you don't seem to understand is that what you said about Nick is 100% true about you too. You are sitting here pouring out your poor little heart about your beliefs about the Xbox 360 dropping the ball for not doing HD-DVD, what you don't seem to realize is that the people who developed the Xbox are in fact far smarter then you and if they didn't feel the need to add in the feature it was because for their vision of the Xbox it didn't need it. Simple as that. I don't remember anyone coming here and asking you to educate them either. So maybe you should do some soul searching, buy a gun and kill yourself. Seriously, you are just stealing productive members of our societies air.
Yes I realize personal attacks like that are the very bottom of the food chain when posting in forums but seen as how you are a bottom feeder yourself I figured I would post comment you were sure to understand.
Have a nice day, make sure to put your whole head in front of the shotgun...
Grindstone @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
Harsh. This thread is getting more ugly as the days pass. m3mnoch; though it was 'cute' what you did, ethically, it didn't impress me. This is a very good informative thread. Let's just keep to the subject and avoiding delving into the personal attacks anymore.
A lot of good points have been brought up on both sides, but it is rather futile now to argue about an HD-dvd drive not being added to the 360. HD-dvd was supposed to be out by now, but for some reason that didn't happen. bd contests that MS should have pushed Toshiba to get it out, but for whatever unknown reason that didn't happen. We can assume that the people of Msoft realized that having a HD-dvd drive in the console was not a necessity. Most people would also assume that Msoft knows what they are doing as it is important for a company to succeed (despite the xbox pseudo-success).
The biggest issue that continually comes up is the available space on the dvd-9 disk and whether that is truely enough space. Of course, counter-arguments ensued about procedural synthesis and compression, etc., and that storage will not be a problem anytime soon (the example of Half Life 2 having 3.36gigs being used to demonstrate that issue). Pointed out once before, the likelihood of a game needing more than 9gigs of space seems a little far-fetched at this point as development costs for creating a game that big would be more than what most developers would be willing to shell out. But, if one of them did, disk swapping may be an issue during the latter life span of the console- though we shall see.
Meanwhile, as we know, Sony is putting in a Blu-ray drive into the PS3, and the risk of disk-swapping is void. Sony has an upper hand here as they are producing Blu-ray technology, whereas Msoft had to contract with Toshiba for that right, which is where the problem may lie- HD-dvd wasn't ready for a Nov. `05 launch. Msoft needed a Holiday season to itself to get an edge in over the domineering Playstation franchise. Msoft probably looked at this issue for a while, then concluded that with the development tools they were supplying, and with the patent on procedural synthesis, the fear of not having enough space on the dvd-9 was not too great, all things considered. Plus, if HD-dvd did not win the next-gen video format (and this seems very apparent right now), then it would be a rather worthless feature until games did eclipse the 9gigs of storage on the dvd- not to mention additional costs for both the consumer and Msoft.
Personally, I think the PS3 will need Blu-ray, but mostly to store crappy coding because the Cell is a bitch to program for. Though I know it is heresy, it would have been nice to see the Blu-ray in the 360 just in case. However, I am also under the assumption that downloading content will soon (by the time dvd is phased out) overtake all platforms and the 360 is set up for that sort of distribution.
In conclusion, whereas it does appear that Msoft could have included Hd-dvd or Blu-ray, at this point, we can only assume that it would have been a setback. PS3 may be in a more confortable position at a glance, but time will tell whether it was a true advantage (and I think about production costs being transfered to the consumer on both the drive and the games). Guess we'll see.
Maeldron @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
I agree Grindstone, this has turned into a flame fest and has gotten away from the matter at hand. I agree also with most of what you just said regarding Msoft's reasons for doing what they did. We have to assume as a world wide leader that Msoft knows what they are doing.
As for m3mnoch, it may not have been ethical...but hot damn I laughed my ass of about it, you know you did too Grind..you know you did...
Christian @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
Well, I think that pretty much sums this debate quite nicely.
Thank you everyone for the thought-provoking and insightful arguments. With all things considered, the only way to find out what the truth is here, will be to wait it out and see what happens.
dave @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
look at comment 106. this guy realy knows what he is talking about and settles any of my worries about my 360 having too little memory. also i hate prerendered FMV cut scenes. they take away from the immersion. take the medal gear solid series (big fan). part of the immersion is its using in game graphics and often, in the case of mgs3, the uniform you have in game is what is used for the scene making you feel like you are realing having an impact of any measure on the story. FMVs should never have been used on ps2 or xbox because the graphics are plenty good to tell a compelling story without them (i would like to cite metal gear solid yet again and also acknowledge halo 2 amongst others). on the XBOX360 or PS3, FMVs should never, ever be used, there is not a thing you cant do with next gen hardware. in game looks nearley prerendered already on the 360. look at the cut scenes in perfect dark zero or condemmed, its all in game engine, they almost seem like FMV's because of camera angles and out of focus effects (like you get with a lense). any developer wanting to use FMVs are true idiots.all that motion capturing could been feed right into the in game engine. also all the extra development cost of modeling for and using multiple super computers. as i said before, FMVs take awy from the immersion while in game cutscenes add to it.
Jay @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
I love news like this. remember back to when folk complained about GC games taking up 2 discs? heh. hello foot, welcome to my mouth.
I dont mind multi-disc games. I feel like I get more, like the value is more.
Geof @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
I have a question. How can ES: Oblivion (if it is the title. We will just assume it is rite now) only take up one disk for the pc and four for the 360?
Greg O. @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
I'll believe the multi-disc games when I see them. And I highly doubt Microsoft had a choice regarding the optical drive format. Do you know how expensive that would have made the console? It was a necessary drop for coming out as early as they did.. And if a game takes up over 30gb of space, I'm sorry but something is wrong with those developers.. That's inexcusable seeing the capabilities of HD video codecs today.
Lazy @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
Save disk 2/3 to HD? Stream disk from pc? O_O
bouncicles @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
Here's something asinine to consider about this, too: have you noticed that used game stores pump up the prices for multi-disc games? It doesn't make any sense, but they continue to do it with games for the PS1 forward. God forbid you want Fear Effect.
Maybe it's a small thing, but it still grinds my gears.
striegs @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
It's already out for PC? Wow, I'm a total dickhead. But Elder Scrolls IV on four discs... IT JUST FELT SO RIGHT!!!
Spooky @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
its not like the hard drive is just to look at! MS might just compress the whole thing and decompress it on the hd before you play.
zach @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
or maybe the game will just come on a harddrive, i mean a 20 gig hd costs what? 10 bucks, maybe less in mass production?
Nick @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
Maybe if certain developers would stop making 20 minute CG cutscenes for every hour of gameplay, and started using in-engine cutscene systems, they wouldn't be so tight on space. Imagine if Halo 2's cutscenes were pre-rendered – they would take up quite a bit of space; as is, they share resources with the maps you actually play in.
Nick
JRM @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
I always had this dream of a gaming console having a 5-disc tray, so I didn't have to keep ejecting games and such. This story just reminded me why I had a good idea.
C-Jo @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
Funny how this wasn't an issue 10 years ago when we were swapping around 4 disc PS1 games all the time. I'm no XBox fan, but I really don't think this is an issue at all. Especially with the hard drive.
ichabodcole @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
its seems as though to some extent the hard drive is just to look at, seeing that they decided to sell something called the "core system". NO DECOMPRESSING FOR YOU.
Derboy @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
Its fair comment that some people are concerned about the lack of a nextgen optical drive on the 360 but is it really that big a deal for games? Some games may come on multiple disks, but looking at games from yester-year like Final Fantasy it didnt really spoil the experience did it? Also the Hard Drive is an option so software developers can't automatically install game information on it or use it for caching. But how difficult is it to add this as an option to games? How hard would it be for a game to check to see (or even ask the player) if a hard drive is present and then use the drive for caching/installing. Also given that the console comes with a free (Silver) Live account and what with broadband speeds now up at 10meg and beyond how long will it be before the disc you buy only holds the basic framework of a game and the rest comes from online storage. There are numerous ways around the limitations of the DVD format and I think the best stance is to wait and see rather than speculate at this point. It certainly doesn't put me off buying the 360. My only concern is that after I get one a year or so from now one a version is released that plays HD-DVD movies for less than the orginal launch price. That will be a real pisser for everyone who forked out for a 360 at launch.
darax @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
The DVD format isn't going to be a big deal. The largest game on the XBOX (that I'm aware of) is 4.7 gigs-9 gigs doubles that. If a game is going to require more than that it won't be the engine, it will be the content, the movies, the cut scenes. You can't convince me that GTA VIII is going to need to swap DVDs when you go from one town to the next-although I wouldn't be surprised if the CGI for all the cutscenes got spread around disks.
Nick Newport @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
Multi disc games back in the day were linear. Now, when you are going around in HUGE environments will you have to change discs everytime you reach a new city? Will you have to switch back and forth all the time?
I have a problem with this. If you just switch to disc 2 and then stay until disc 3, I have no problem with it.
Brad @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
I would guess the game would be Too Human from Silicon Knights. When space was limited by the media size on the GameCube they released Twin Snakes using 2 GODs. There haven't been many other multidisk games for the GameCube.
Also, I think Oblivion would be too nonlinear for players to tolerate changing disks to enter new areas.
MthdDirector @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
"did Microsoft make the right decision when choosing the 360's optical drive?"
Are you suggesting that there was an alternative? Maybe a holographic DVD technology that's ready for market that we don't know about?
When MS decided to launch this November, I think that determined which drive technology would be in the console.
While they HAVE mentioned an HD add-on that would be movies-only, I don't think they ruled out the possibility of an HD optical drive for games.
GamerZero @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
Nintendo's next console doesn't have Blue-Ray or HD-DVD.Does that mean it will have low res graphics or multi-disk RPG's aswell?Is it time for everyone to jump on the Sony bandwagon and say farewell to DVD game-consoles.I don't think so...
LMAO @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
Umm many or all PC games still comes on standard CDs, spanning 3-4 disks. As mature as DVD is, it is still not the "standard" format for PC games. I think developers will whine about DVD because of disc space, but publishers will love DVDs because of "cost" issue.
Yet another topic for Sony fanboys to brag about...
don_sf @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
its the graphics and game size that make the difference, this will need more space.
people were happily changing disks back then, but this is now. now is a time where we demand simplicity. years ago people would happily search through paper databases for hours, and now they would start complaining if its a few seconds slow.
there is a reason why its called next generation, better graphics is a big point to this. how can you take full advantage of this if you cant just relax and play without changing disks.
oh by the way, if you want a brand new cheap sony blu ray player, theres a thing called ps3 which is coming out...
bob @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
Before I start I would just like to state that I fully intend on buying a 360 and i'm sore i'm going to love it once I get it. But replying to Derboy's post article fully you'll see that the writer did say that with linear games such as halo ( or the PS1 final fantasy's) that swapping disk isn't so much a problem and it isn't as you only have a few 2 or 3 times and theres usally several hours worth of gameplay between swaps.
But "cubic" are different and GTA is the best example with the size of GTA's cities growing every game I would be suprised if soon each city was at the 10 GB mark, imagine having to swap disks in between cross city GTA missions. Now its easy to do several GTA missions in an hour now if say 3 of those were cross city and back you would have to swap disks 6 times in hour, now rockstar wouldn't wantb that so they would have to reduce the amount of traveling in the GTA games stifling the overall fun. Now that might be fine for some but i'm sure the for the majority wouldn't be pleased.
And as for installing games on a harddrive again currently that isn't feasible as the harddrive is only 20 gigs n MS has said that they'll be bringing out a bigger one abd I doubt your going to want to uninstall the previous and installing a new one every time you want to switch games.
And as for a larger harddrive and 10 meg downloads again there probably not going to take off this generation as only the hardcore gamer is going to be able to afford them and the last thing MS id going to want to do is alienate the average gamer, as they make up the most of the market and MS desperately needs to make a profit this time around.
The Shizzlenit @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
This is fine for RPG's and all linear story-based games. I would hope not to see multi-disced racing games (tho GT2 did it), but the only genre of games that this would hurt is the open-ended games that the whole game takes place in one very large area, such as Oblivion or Grand Theft Auto. Because GTA:SA took up nearly 6 GB of disk space, I seriously doubt that next-gen GTA will be ported to 360, unless you like switching discs in the middle of missions. Other than that, I really don't care about having more discs. Some of the greatest games of all time are on more than 1 disc, and being on multiple discs didn't hurt them or me one bit.
BTW the game is probably Enchant ARM, they were the 1st developers to seriously complain about disc space and said that they wouldn't be able to fit the game on one disc. I hope that this generation teaches the Japanese that you don't need hours upon hours of FMV to convey a storyline properly, you can just use the ingame models and effects, and they will look pretty close to the same.
Anonymous Coward @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
The largest game on the XBOX (that I'm aware of) is 4.7 gigs-9 gigs doubles that.
Jade Empire is around 6.5-7GB...
Kuroshi @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
This post runs as if next ge formats are the standard. I believe only sony has chosen to use next gen formats for storage. Both nintendo and MS have chosen not to go that route. Maybe sony is right and BOTH nintendo and Ms are wrong. Maybe sony is wrong and it's not needed for games and sony is using it as a "trojan horse" At any rate, let's not make this seem like a Ms decision. 2 very smart companies have decided that next gen storage is not necessary for gaming and only one (who has an interest other than gaming) has said that it is.
TC @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
Does anyone else think that, since Microsoft refrained from using a HDD as default, that a next -gen optical drive should have been included? I would have liked one or the other (or both). Classic games are classic games no matter the number of discs (Metal Gear, Shenmue, FFVII etc), but disk swapping did interrupt my enjoyment of those games (even if it was for about 20 secs).
Evan @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
this is bull because the game has already been finished and they have already played it only on 1 disk all they are doing now is optimizing it.
Laughing Man @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
Even Itagaki complained about the disc limitations of DVD-9, when it came to cut scenes. They're trying to cram 720p hi-def onto an old technology, which granted can be done with new codecs, but that probably requires an incredibly expensive license on the developer's part to use it. It's one thing to convert your own.... Legally obtained movies, etc. It's another to sell it to people in large quantities.
The addon to the Xbox 360 I would put money on will not be a physical optical drive attachment. It'll be a larger hard drive and Live will include a iTMS wannabe. HD content will be streamed or downloaded, no optical discs necessary. You'll be limited to those companies that want to partner with MS for such a thing.
Hi res textures do take up more space than previously.
I would also put my money on the following: When the post mortem is written and the Xbox 360 is regarded as an amazing console that took 2nd place, MS will be seen as having been too inflexible and short sighted in launching Xmas 2005 in order to capitalize on getting in the market sooner. They bungled their launch, equating their product with frustration and elitism, turning off parents. They pissed off their core fanbase - hardcore gamers - by denying them adequate amounts of product. The defect situation got large enough to be mentioned casually in the mainstream media. All the markting dollars aimed at getting casual gamers and hipsters failed.
Whether or not games span multiple discs is irrelevant if the game is good. But launching with outdated optical technology and following up with a pity addon has never succeeded and probably never will - it's an admission that your product is obsolete.
Macon Cheese @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
I see a lot of people basing their arguments on the fact that Nintendo also decided not to include a next-gen optical drive in their system.
YOUR ARGUMENTS ARE FLAWED.
For one, Nintendo did not mandate that every game support HD. This removes the need for such things as high-definition textures, leaving much more free space on the disk.
For another, Nintendo is not flaunting their graphical capabilities as a major selling point of the Revolution. Microsoft is, and even if they weren't that's what Joe Q. Public is going to come to expect (based upon the original Xbox's marketing strategy).
Just because neither Microsoft nor Nintendo included HD-DVD or Blu-Ray in their next consoles, it doesn't mean you can draw comparisons so easily. Each company has a different strategy, and your arguments should reflect that.
Victor @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
I believe it depends on the competition. There is a lot that extra disc space is good for like bonus contents for one. For example a new Final fantasy game could use the additional disc space for a full length movie like FF7 advent children, just imagine geting all that on one disc.
Second thing is if the PS3 uses it, it then becomes an advantage and thus a selling point for them. Sony could persuade a large number of developers to use the BD disc and thus develop immensely huge games pretty much difficult to put on the X360, games that span series like Shenmue,Resident evil e.t.c could all be put on one disc (that is all the series like RE 1-4,Shenmue 1&2,Halo 1&2 e.t.c). This will quickly result in a difference in the software quality offered.
As of right now there really is nothing to say if MS made the right decision or not but all that may change with the arrival of the ps3
Alex @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
This is what greg o. said: "And if a game takes up over 30gb of space, I'm sorry but something is wrong with those developers.. That's inexcusable seeing the capabilities of HD video codecs today."
You might as well complain that games like Battlefield 2 should fit on floppy disks. Its the developers fault for not inventing good compression techiques! Give me a break...
Obviously, he doesn't know what he's talking about. It saddens me that developers will already have to limit themselves with next-gen consoles this early in the stage. Current gen games already have a problem with space. Multiple disk prices influence the development at production.
As for the next GTA, I suspect that it will be released for PS3 first. I'm going to have an X360 and a PS3. I will be considering media delivery when games are released across multi-platforms. Especially if its an open-ended game.
How will a developer overcome such media problems? Imagine blu-ray. They can fit anything they want on it. All their textures, movies, and great graphics. What will they do if they need to release on xbox 360? Will they cut back graphics? Will they compromise graphics for gameplay? (think GTA - changing disks in-between cities hurts gameplay)
Even Half-Life 2 got complaints. Many people didn't like loading levels in the middle of their game. Imagine changing disks.
ZeroCorpse @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
It seems to me the big "loss" would be the endless and stupid FMV sequences and cutscenes in games. I say HOORAH for this! I HATE games with tons of FMV cutscenes. If I want to watch a movie, I'll watch a movie. When I play a game, you'd better not fill the damned disc up with cheap-ass anime stories in between lame turn-based combat. If this means the Xbox 360 won't have the lame cutscenes in games, then I say it's a step in the right direction.
Boo hoo for the Japanese developers. Maybe if they programmed GAMES instead of bloated movies with minor player interaction, they'd have no problems.
As for other games, it's been stated that it all comes down to lazy programming and lack of compression. If developers do their job right, disc space is a non-issue. Just because you have the extra space doesn't mean it gets used efficiently- I'm willing to bet the PS3 games will be the same, but will have less compression and lazier coding (primarily because developers are saying it's a pain in the ass to program for).
bob @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
Kuroshi, the difference between MS and nintendo, is nintendo has never tried to make consoles that do anything else then play games, they brought out the gamecube with no dvd knowing that their competiton would have them. Whereas MS has constantly been pushing the media centre inbuilt into the 360, in order to induce more customers into buying it.
MS has been pushing the 360 as more than just a gaming device, so doesn't it make sense to add an hd-dvd in built for that cause? If the consumer had a chice to either buy a $400 hd-dvd that does nothing more than play hd-dvd's or one one that can play games as has a fully functional version of MC which do you think they will choose?
Having to buy an extra addon inorder to play HD movies be as succesful if its included from the beggining.
Victor @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
I believe it depends on the competition. There is a lot that extra disc space is good for like bonus contents for one. For example a new Final fantasy game could use the additional disc space for a full length movie like FF7 advent children, just imagine geting all that on one disc.
Second thing is if the PS3 uses it, it then becomes an advantage and thus a selling point for them. Sony could persuade a large number of developers to use the BD disc and thus develop immensely huge games pretty much difficult to put on the X360, games that span series like Shenmue,Resident evil e.t.c could all be put on one disc (that is all the series like RE 1-4,Shenmue 1&2,Halo 1&2 e.t.c). This will quickly result in a difference in the software quality offered.
As of right now there really is nothing to say if MS made the right decision or not but all that may change with the arrival of the ps3
Aiden @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
OMG ITS HALO 3!!!
(the 4 disc game...)
GamerZero @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
#25 So Nintendo must be dead then,b4 it's out the door cuz it's sticking with its tried and tested GC graphics.Yup,I can see Microsoft charging itself a stupid amount of money for using its own HD-WMV codecs.Sony have blown away the competition with the Blue-Ray of death.Its like,GAME OVER man!I am Father Christmas,it's a fact!
the_game_master @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
To me it sounds completely ludacris, DVD9 9.6GB is a lot of storage for a game, especially when I see games like Half Life 2, Doom 3 filling just 3 CD-ROMs or one DVD5 disc. But again those are PCs which have Hard Disk Drives that they extact content to which probably most of the game's 3D texture is then extracted out of. Can't say the same for game consoles which inheritely run directly off the media they are on and don't fully use hard drives. I dont know what to say about that. Maybe everyone should have stuck with the game cartridge, I use to dawg that technology out until I realized that most of the things done on CDs can be achieved over a cartridge Resident Evil 2 for N64 surely proved that one, and with flash memory prices falling I bet if some new game company wants to revive the cartridge game console it could be done. Can you picture 2Gbit game cartridges :o awesome!!
Jon @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
They certainly did the right thing. I appreciate the lower cost of my 360 and pray tell what format would they have included this early when no HD formats were even ready!
Victor @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
How very unfortunate that so many here keep downplaying FMVS, right now cutting it out could mean loosing Asian gamers and developers as it is more of a tradition with them. Also the fact FMVS are used suggest in my own opinion that the consoles are not yet able to deliver visuals,physics or recreate the FMVS needed in real time it might be that the animation is just not good enough or something else. Also it is good to remember that videogames still strive for movie level entertainment with it's visual animation and believable effects.
Victor @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
How very unfortunate that so many here keep downplaying FMVS, right now cutting it out could mean loosing Asian gamers and developers as it is more of a tradition with them. Also the fact FMVS are used suggest in my own opinion that the consoles are not yet able to deliver visuals,physics or recreate the FMVS needed in real time it might be that the animation is just not good enough or something else. Also it is good to remember that videogames still strive for movie level entertainment with it's visual animation and believable effects.
bd @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
Microsoft has a lot more money to lose than Sony, but since they were too cheap, they didn't want to take the cost of adding an HD-DVD to the 360. That was one of the worst mistakes ever. Sure, the games can "not have cut-scenes", but cut-scenes surely add immersiveness to the games.
"BUT THE 360 IS POWERFUL ENOUGH TO GENERATE CUT-SCENES LOL!!"
Indeed, but the more detail you add to a game, both polygonwise and texturewise, the more size you add to the files (specially because all games have to be displayed in 720p).
Who knows, maybe it won't matter that much, but certainly it will suck for hyperspherical games. "Shit, I want to go back to Monosuke City, but I'd have to put disc 3 again, and I'm in disk 5".
Also, I'm sick of the Mortal Kombat ending slideshows. I want a "cut-scene" (or a rendered scene) for each character at least, and that would certainly not fit on a 9GB DVD, especially when they make the “MK compilation” of every character and more till MK8 or whatever (hopefully they will).
Microsoft would have made a great investment, as opposed to cost, if they had added HD-DVD. Why?
1. First next-gen disc format to market, securing the now weak support for HD-DVD, making companies deliver their Hi Def movies.
2. Since several movies would need the three layered HD-DVD, 360 games could compete in size against PS3 games (45 GB vs. 54 GB).
3. High Definition users would be even more eager for getting a 360 right now, if only for HD-DVD.
4. Support for Blu-ray would be worse, driving Sony into economical hardship, and eventually bankruptcy, automatically declaring the console war over for Microsoft.
Sure, it might have cost them another 5 billion dollars, but it would have been worth it (for Microsoft) after all, to get the crown in 5 years instead of making it a not so uphill (as it could have been) battle for Sony and a steeper hill for Microsoft and MAYBE getting the crown in the next 10 years or so "if everything goes as expected".
They would have been the only console left for mainstream gaming in the next 5 years, and expecting to profit forever after that. Sure, there is Nintendo Revolution, but they are not competing directly anyway.
Twist @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
The multi-disc Final Fantasy titles did swapping right at least. You only moved forward in disk order, never backwards. Of course the main reason those games were multi-disc was because of the CGI's.
I do wish they would have went with a next-gen format but at the same times games on average only increase in size by 2x to 3x per generation. The average last generation title was only 2 to 3 gigs so most games will still fit on a standard DVD. There will be exceptions of course.
In the end if the game is good enough having to swap discs won't be so bad.
Smotchberry @ Dec 18th 2005 10:05PM
I was wondering... Microsoft might have made the right decision to opt with a dual layer DVD drive. Which, if I am not mistaken can be read faster compared to a Blu-Ray disc (if i am not mistaken it's around 1x-2x).
If Microsoft starts to feel the heat, however, they could use their hard drive to actually save a bunch of games on there. Sure, the current 20GB might be quite a meager amount but if and when they release larger capacities, games could easily gain access to more space than a Blu-Ray disc.
While I am not to sure if they will do this, I am sure they have it as an option. Releasing a drive with HD-DVD game support might not please any of the gamers who lined up in the cold rain to get their xboxes on day 1 (or those crazy people who got their's off ebay).
Microsoft just might be able to deal with this problem. If and when it becomes one.