Ring of disc death (Xbox 360 annoyance #008)
Since our first experience with the Xbox 360 disc-scratching issue, numerous anecdotal reports from around the game-o-sphere have given us a better feel for the conditions under which the issue occurs. This is a wrap-up of those issues and of the annoyance:
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vertical orientation alone does not scratch DVDs
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horizontal orientation alone does not scratch DVDs
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movement of the Xbox 360 during play scratches DVDs
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movement could be someone running through the house and sending shocks to the system through your floorboards
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movement is often done on purpose when friends try to show friends the cool way in which the ring of light reorients itself with its fancy mercury switch
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movement is often accidental, as when annoying controller cables are tripped over in the dark, jarring the Xbox 360
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sometimes, people just get sick of poorly designed boss fights, and kick their Xbox 360s in frustration
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and sometimes, customers are committing fraud by purposefully destroying games that have been played to completion so that they can be exchanged for store credit that is used to purchase new games
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This annoyance falls into the "so annoying we want to kick the family pet" category. I have moved various home electronics devices while they were spinning DVDs and audio CDs and not once have I hosed a media disc so thoroughly. I regularly move my laptop while its hard disk and DVD drives are spinning, and no damage has occurred yet. Sure, a console is meant to be stationary, but if fault tolerance is the norm amongst home consumer electronics devices, it should be the norm for the Xbox 360 as well because customers have come to expect that base level of fault tolerance.
We understand that no product is perfect, but we challenge ourselves here at Joystiq to make sure that we don�t lose our ability to think critically about the products that we review. To fall in love with any product would be an unforgivable sin that would undermine the quality of the writing that we bring to you every day.
As much fun as we�re having with it right now, the Xbox 360 has some flaws and some issues that annoy us that we�re cataloging through a series of posts, one by one. Because the first five posts in the series really ruffled some fanboy feathers, we need to remind readers that Sony and Nintendo will each get the same treatment once we get our hands on their next-gen consoles.
Previously catalogued Xbox 360 annoyances: 001, 002, 003, 004, 005, 006, 007.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Brymo @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
People did not learn this lesson with the Playstation 2?
The ZeroCorpse @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
I'm sure if you read your laptop's manual, you'll see that it's recommended that you do not move it while either drive is spinning. Aside from that, the laptop is meant to deal with a little movement, as it's a portable device.
The 360 is a home console, and a high-end piece of consumer electronics. To move it while the disc is spinning seems to be really, really stupid.
Mine's not giving me any problems. It's on my desk, where I rest my feet sometimes while playing, and no amount of "casual impact" (similar to running through the house and sending shocks) has caused disc scratching for me.
For the record, my 360 also stays almost completely cool, and the power supply is no warmer than a DVD player after a movie.
I think there are a lot of idiots who are trying to treat the 360 like it's a GameBoy or a NES. It's not. Respect the hardware, guys. It works great if you don't mistreat it.
Adam @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
Real world annoyances.. idiots who are idiots. Woah, that is like some Greek philosophy or something!
Kuroshi @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
I think the post are kinda funny if not completely useless. I just hope you can maintain fairness when the other consoles release. To be fair, the 360 is the only current next gen machine so it's been taking an unfair beating by your site. The other machines will soon be upon us, and if you can continue to pass the beating on to the other consoles then it's all okay. For the record laptops are made to be portable the 360 is not. I am also not in the habit of jostling my electronic devices around. We have enough products in america engineered to the lowest common denominator. Maybe stupid people should just stay in closets with mittens on. Out of all the annoyances you have to ask yourself how much extra would you pay to not have them?
John @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
Jesus Christ you guys whine a lot.
THESE ARE ANNOYANCES. They're fair. Get over it.
kaiser @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
Annoyance #020: Xbox 360 fanboys who call Joystiq biased whenever they write something critical of the Xbox 360.
Annoyance #021: Nintendo fanboys who call Joystiq biased whenever they write something critical of Nintendo.
Annoyance #022: Sony fanboys who call Joystiq biased whenever they write something critical of Sony.
Joystiq can't win for all of the whining fanboys that comment often and early, most of the time without ever bothering to read the posts.
Chris McDowell @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
Joystick annoyance #00580 Good idea gone completely bad by totally overusing it. Fix...Remove RSS feed...
vc @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
Overusing? Guess we should have the other 991 of these spread out over more than a couple days then, huh? =)
OSUblake @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
Joystiq, and anybody else who moves their 360 while it is on is just retarded!!! Are people so into feng shui that have to move their 360 while it is on so that they can coordinate the layout of their room?
If you move the 360 while it's on, you deserve to get a scratched disk. I abuse my electronic more than I should, but I would never move electronics that are designed to be stationary while they are on. No wonder consumer products have those stupid warnings printed on their labels, because of retards like joystiq and every other retard that now has a scratched 360 game.
Perhaps next week joystiq will show us why it is bad to rev your car engine to 9,000 RPM while it is in parked.
Dralt @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
The 360 debacle unfolds.
Joystiq finally decides to behave professionally and fanboys get ticked off.
Wow! Hell must freeze over.
agree @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
this one is valid but honestly. but to quote the manual
"IMPORTANT
To avoid jamming the dvd drive and damaging the discs or the Xbox 360 console: Remove discs before moving the console or tilting it between the horizontal and vertical positions..."
"IMPORTANT
Pour eviter de conicer le lecteur de DVD et d'endommager les disques ou la console Xbox 360: Retirez les disques avant de deplacer la console ou de l'incliner entre les positions horizontale et verticale..."
"IMPORTANTE..."
you get the point. maybe they should have been more clear and yes one of the first things I did was watch the ring of light change to display my player 1 status. It didnt harm the disc at all, but it did make my new 400 dollar toy yell like chewbacca.
James Montagna @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
It's not scratching the discs. It's simply imprinting the Xbox 360 logo onto them. Du-uh.
LSSLAVE @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
I remember as a child with controllers we got excited, we jumped, the NES and SNES hit the floor many times. Sometimes the card would go flying out of the NES, we put it back, blew on it, and started playing again no problem. The Gamccube I have turned UPSIDE DOWN while it was on and nothing bad happened.
Stop trying to claim its alright. I am sure you love the 360, I am glad you feel you got your moneys worth but this IS a flaw.
Alkaiser @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
To the Joystiq folks:
As long as you keep these things sensible, go right on.
To you other folks that don't understand, the reason they're nitpicking, is so the target of the nitpicking can FIX THE DAMN THINGS NEXT TIME THEY BUILD A CONSOLE.
DO you see this as a bad thing? What does the valid criticism cost you? Nothing. Without it, the manfuacturers see nary a bad word from IGN, Gamespot, and Gamespy, and figure, "We have made the best console EVAR! The next version should be exactly the same...only more powerful! We change nothing!"
People bitched about the lack of effective cooling in the Playstation. The PS2 comes around, and guess what? It's got an internal fan now. Sony refused to admit it was a design flaw, because everyone kept quiet about it. Then some 3rd party manufacturer thought enough about it to build a fan that attached to the bottom of the Playsation, and that got their attention. Voila. Fans for the PS2s.
You want crappy next-next-gen design, you're welcome to it. As for me and everyone else who isn't an idiot, however, I hope someone prints this list out (the valid complaints at least) and nails it to Gates' office door so some of this crap doesn't make a repeat appearance, and maybe Microsoft actually wakes up enough to fix some of these things in the next batches of the 360.
Natrino @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
"movement could be someone running through the house and sending shocks to the system through your floorboards"
that makes sense, although I find it a troubling if a subtle vibration can cause any problems
"movement is often done on purpose when friends try to show friends the cool way in which the ring of light reorients itself with its fancy mercury switch"
this is a case of "read the manual"
"movement is often accidental, as when annoying controller cables are tripped over in the dark, jarring the Xbox 360"
this is totally understandable, but wasn't this the point of the "breakaway" cable design on the first xbox? i'm surprised this isn't on the 360 wired controllers and play & charge kits. there have been times where someone has pulled a cable with my xbox and it hasn't done anything, maybe it's just heavier, but I wouldn't think it is THAT much heavier than a 360
"sometimes, people just get sick of poorly designed boss fights, and kick their Xbox 360s in frustration"
no need to respond here, that's just retarded
"and sometimes, customers are committing fraud by purposefully destroying games that have been played to completion so that they can be exchanged for store credit that is used to purchase new games"
i hadn't thought of this, that is a fairly good reason, even if it is do to cheap people
Natrino @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
number 12 - LOL!
skibble @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
LSSLAVE, that (the Gamecube thing) reminds me of a video on IGN or somewhere where they review Wario Ware Twisted using the Game Boy Player attached to the Gamecube. Watching full-grown men twirl a console around in midair while crazy shit goes on in the background... fun stuff.
Tim E @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
All these concerns are legitimate, don't let stupid fanboys sway you to stop or censor yourself. Consumers deserve to know what is wrong with a product and what is good with a product. That's capitalism baby.
Mike @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
Apparently, there isn't any other news going on in the video game world, so Joystiq wants you to "enjoy" another annoyance. Can't wait for #009!
Serious, is the 360 this bad? If so, I'm happy playin' my DC and SNES.
LSSLAVE @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
I owned a Xbox 360, I played it on my standard def aswell as saw it in high def. I was let down. I wasnt a Xbox fan (hated the controllers, playing with carpul tunnel on those is impossible) but it wasnt until recently that I became a Nintendo fanboy.
And dont tell me its wrong, when I bought a DS and was told I bought a kiddy piece of shit I promised myself to never buy a PSP. My purchases are valid enough for my own fucking enjoyment.
As for the 360, I find that alot of people are seeing things I cant see, nor can people around me. I had an Xbox fanboy look at it and just looked bummed, this wasnt next gen to him. He loved the controller compared to the old ones, but the games were nothing that was promised.
I have seen Gears of War, and while it looks good people who claim these are the greatest graphics ever confuse me. I find that in exchange for more polygons texturing got very bland...
Project Gotham Racing 3, arguably the best looking title from the launch, doesnt even play in high definition. No one realizes this yet though, and will swear it is great in High Definition. That is how you know they are telling themselves it. I wont tell you not to get it, but I think its obvious what ill go for.
To the Wario Ware Twisted, how did that go with the gameboy Player? I imagine someone got hurt, or else they werent too frantic at it lol.
Joystiq, you post some stuff that irritates me, but never listen to this bullshit you get. I love that your willing to point out flaws AND benefits. Yes it stings that there is a post about the Revo being weak graphically, but I imagine when you play the controller (if it is amazing) we will also hear all about it. Of course endlessly you will hear "OH JESUS QUIT FUCKING TALKING ABOUT IT" from people but the more educated people come here knowing your a game-blog, nothing more nothing less.
skibble @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
"To the Wario Ware Twisted, how did that go with the gameboy Player? I imagine someone got hurt, or else they werent too frantic at it lol."
I should say so... ever heard of a place called Chernobyl?
fluffy @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
I just don't get some people. How dumb can you get. Oh, it's not a flaw, it's a feature !! MY ASS !!!
These kinds of products are meant to be at a minimum able to take some knocks or kicks. Hell even handphone can take a small amount of knocks or falls and still work.
Next you idiots will be saying that I am not supposed to move a Thinkpad while it is running. How the hell am I supposed to work with it on my lap ?? Even at the most minimum, I will be moving a little and you don't see the disk on the little bugger crashing do you ?
It does a little technique call head parking which prevents the head from crashing on to the surface disk platter. This is what I call a feature, not some dumbass statement saying that I should not move the xbox while it is running.
So what if you just so happen to acidentally kick the system while it is playing ?
Let me guess, your idiot answer "Too bad, go buy another CD ?!" Screw you.
To all you dumb fanboys, Stop making excuses for stupid design flaws, and this is what it is, a DESIGN FLAW, a rushed system to market and putting in cheap stuff in a console just to save a couple buck more and giving the consumers a whole lot of grief. You guys make me sick.
Chris @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
To everyone that says "well my laptop/portable cd player doesn't scratch my discs"
Take a look at the tray on your laptop/cd player then look at the xbox 360. The middle portion of the laptop/cd player tray has the spinning holder with ball bearings that keeps the disc at the proper level while being moved. Since the Xbox uses a standard pc-style dvd drive, it has a standard open tray - there is nothing that secures the disc down while in motion, so it would make since that there would be damage during movement.
My 360 gets nudged and shook every now and then in the upright position and hasn't scratched one disc. Never locked up and it runs cool (same with PSU).
Maybe I just got lucky, or maybe a few people are just idiots and the internet makes the spread of their problems seem greater than it really is?
James Montagna @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
It's not scratching the discs. It's simply imprinting the Xbox 360 logo onto them. Du-uh.
LSSLAVE @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
and IGN, 1up, Joystiq, and other columns are liars? They are given demo kits by Microsoft because they KNOW these people make shit up when writing reviews?
You are foolish...
I am not bashing the 360, but a mistake is a mistake. Nintendo made a mistake sticking with carts, I can admit that (albeit I hate load time). Nintendo made a mistake going kiddy with the Gamecubes design (they are making up for it). Xbox 360 has ALOT of flaws that are standing out. You should have the balls to admit it, no one will look down on you because you made an informed decision (unless you just fanboyishly wanted one)
Microsoft didnt TELL people these flaws, it was seemingly expected for people to know. They say it is low percentage, but the outcry is larger with management of companies becoming bitter because of the complaints they recieve.
I am sure that because the internet cares about a few broken 360s it wouldnt be on the news. The problem is obviously very large scale that the NEWS covered this, and as much as I agree competition is good this is really going to hinder the 360. To the non hardcore gamer (or even casual-hardcore, who read news for entertainment on games) this is what they hear, and no amount of the system being sold out can top that.
People dont like buying broken things, the second it becomes knowledge its broken mom is more skeptical about that 400 dollar toy billy wants. That simple
Haha @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
Those are not scratches on disks.
Those are the new secret super toy, the hula.
You know, for kids.
Mazinkaiser @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
While i dont think that having discs scratched like this is ok, it should be expected due to the design of the tray. The PS2 has the same issues when moved; they both should have had the disc harness on the tray to avoid this issue, but that would cost more so they cut a corner on it. I'm surprised that so any people aren't aware of this issue. I laugh at people that get their discs scratched this way because this is due to consumer ignorance and seeing as we had this same discussion back in 2000 with the PS2, I don't get why people havn't learned their lesson by now! No i'm not making excuses for MS, they should have known that people are ignorant and they should have designed the tray better.
Fuzz @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
Wait-a-minute . . .did you say mercury switch??? So a ring of light can sense orientation??? I realy hope you are wrong. As computer makers are striving to get rid of toxic chemicals, MS, goes and throwsa whole tube of it in every XBox sold? Call me a tree hugger, but this is an environmental travesty waiting to happen. I hope this gets exposed. Can someone PLEASE verify this???
BrutalMutant @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
You can prevent your discs from being scratched.
http://www.hack360.com
Josh @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
#26, settle down, Beavis. Yes, the 360 can sense its orientation. But you don't need a mercury switch to sense orientation. There are other ways.
Angrybeever @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
Well now i finally figured out why my old PS2 used to eat discs oh well bit late for that at least now i shouldn't damage my 360 games ( when i get it back from M$ :( )
watership @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
#13, LSSLAVE.
Cartridges are not CDs. That's not a fair comparison. And the gamecube is a small 3 inch disc. It doesn't spin as fast as A 12x Speed full sized dual layer DVD ROM. The speed is the problem. This isn't an issue of design, so much as physics. Discs rotating at a high speed have centrifical force that resists changes in axis. That's it. My xbox is never moved it's running, and my xbox 360 won't be either. This arguement of a design flaw is useless.
bedpanjohn @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
Every product has problems on the first roll out but as an American i am shamed to say that American products usually really suck on first roll out. Cars and electronics specifically. There is a reason why GM is going bankrupt and Microsoft isnt making money on the video game side, its because their products are usually faulty in many ways. Sure there are worse products (cars made in Iran dont run so well, infact they are known to blow up) but the Japanese really know how to be methodical about designing and testing products so there are less bugs and annoyances.
However, if i had the money and i could get a hold of a 360 i would buy it because the entertainment factor weights out the annoyance factor.
pennywise969 @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
Last night, I tried to play my 360 while it was sitting in a pool of burning gasoline. And it caught on fire and stopped working? WTFOMGBBQ!!!!!!
I used to play my PS2 when it was on fire all the time. Microsoft lied to us. So, I am going to wait and buy a ps3 or a revolution, Im sure they will be flame retardant.
epobirs @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
The GameCube drive has a locking spindle similar to a laptop PC drive. (Didn't the Saturn and Dreamcast also have locking spindles?) It knew that too many of its likely customers couldn't be trusted to properly handle it and not become so spastic during a game they'd knock it over.
Microsoft's mistake was apparently assuming greater intelligence and self-control by video gamers than is the case.
Tony C @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
#30: The comparison to Nintendo's cartridges was just to say that they held onto the technology too long -- as in the Nintendo 64 should have been disk-based, rather than expensive ROM chips.
The GameCube uses a three-point ball bearing friction-mount spindle like on most laptops. As long as there isn't any part of the optical tray that will come in contact with the disk surface, it should never damage media that is properly mounted.
http://www.anandtech.com/systems/showdoc.aspx?i=1566&p=11
epobirs @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
#31
My launch original Xbox is still going strong after four years without fail. The same can be said for my launch PS2. Yet both machines have had many complaints of defective units. Note that one of these isn't a US made product.
Every product of any level of complexity is going to have a failure rate. There is only so much testing that can be done during manufacturing.
Attributing Microsoft's losses in video games to defective Xboxs is stunningly ignorant. If the defect rate were so hish we'd surely see a class action as Sony has faced: http://www.gamespot.com/news/6139482.html
(Note that the Xbox 360 suit that has made the news is a single individual rather than a class action and stands a great likelihood of being thrown out of court on well established precedent.)
The overall financial failure of the Xbox has several factors. Much of it is overhyped. The business unit for the Xbox includes several other operation separate from games that have lost huge sums in their efforts to define and create new markets. When you subtract those the Xbox business has been much closer to profitability than widely assumed.
The single biggest error MS made on the Xbox development that handicapped the product ever since was in not owning the chipset. This wasn't a problem on the CPU as Intel was going to produce improved Pentium IIIs that would serve the Xbox's needs regardless of whether Microsoft made a specific request. But it was a disaster when it came to the two Nvidia chips. Nvidia would order chips from a foundry partner, who of course made a profit on each chip, and in turn sold chips to Microsoft with another layer of profit added. This three tier arrangement made for greater cost than if Microsoft were able to deal directly with a chip foundry as they do now with the Xbox 360 chipset. From Nvidia's perspective the XGPU was their most advanced product and they were accustomed to earning high margins on their high-end chips in the PC market.
This is poison to the console business model where you break even or lose money on high-end chip in pursuit of the greater profits from software. This conflict of business models didn't really become apparent until too late to change the course of the project. After the Xbox launch Microsoft was determined to cut costs while Nvidia was intent on profits. The relationship went sour and left Nvidia uninclined to produce the die shrinks needed to cut the chip costs at all levels and allow for a smaller and more attractive Xbox to be engineered that would have had greater market reach and less of a loss for each unit.
On top of this, the Xbox was easily modified into a cheap PC. While many who did this still bought and played Xbox games many more pirated games or used it for other than Xbox games. Each of these units represented a financial sinkhole. How many of the existing Xbox base doesn't contribute to Xbox software sales is unknowable but it likely contributed a fair bit to the losses. If it weren't for that aspect there might have been a few million less Xboxs manufactured but those made and sold would be far more financially productive for Microsoft. Consider the losses for one million Xboxs that never produce any software revenue. For this reason it is little surprise that the Xbox 360 has some very elaborate protections against modification.
Bedpanjohn @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
but my point was to not buy an Iranian game system or it might blow up
Ivo @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
My console seems to be messed up. It keeps thinking that I'm shifting its position because of the ring of light rotating.
Is there anyone else experiencing this problem.
vc @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
I think it does that when it's seeking other controllers.
Ivo @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
No, this is different. It switches between the top right and top left quadrants. When it looks for controllers it spins around.
laurie money @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
O.K., I am just the mother of a 13 year old that needs an answer to this question- Should I buy the Xbox 360 or wait and get something different at a later date? Good lord this is confusing, of course we want the child to have a good christmas but I don't want to buy products that are somewhat defective.
vc @ Dec 18th 2005 9:06PM
Laurie:
If you believe your 13-year-old can treat electronics equipment carefully, then get him the Xbox. It's a fun experience, but more delicate than it should be.