Joyswag: How would you redesign the PS3 controller?

"Sony needs to move the left analog stick where the D-pad is and throw in some analog triggers. Triggers are very important for some games, like racing games. Also, a six button face would be nice too, just like the Genesis 6 button or Sega Saturn controller."



Great idea, more buttons to do more trivial features in games. That will only decrease the learning curve, right?



Sounds fucking ridiculous if you ask me. Simple is good.



Does anyone know why Super Mario Bros. 3 is so freaking awesome? It's because it's so freaking simple to learn. B is run, A is jump. Use the d-pad to navigate and your good.



Yet at the same time it can take a lifetime to fully master. This is what all games should be like.



I don't my game to be bloated with shit that I don't want. Simple is sweet, got it? I don't want some multi-layered plotline or an intricate controlling combo system or any stupid unneccesary shit.. I wanna play a freaking game.



Some people just can't grasp the importance of simplicity. It's pure.

"All Nintendo's controllers since have sucked"



It's funny, since the Xbox controller and S-Pad controller are almost a direct rip-off of the Gamecube's, right down to the shoulder triggers.



Of course, there is some button disporportion on the button pad, but that's about it.



Wow, Microsoft ripping off another company, nothing new there.

heh. one of these days, bd, you and i will actually agree on something.... sigh.



"Well, as proven in the link I gave above, it is ergonomic."

i never said it wasn't ergonomic. or really uncomfortable in general. in fact, i do believe it will be very comfortable -- held straight out in front of you. like a steering wheel. who wants to do that for a couple hours of gaming? i don't know about you, but my arms will get tired. it's not fit for prolonged gaming experiences.



i also said it wasn't pleasing to look at. that, you can't really dispute, as the large majority of people looking at it have laughed. and not out of jubilation. did you laugh when you saw the ipod? or the main ps3 housing? or the psp? nope. nobody really did. that's because THEY are sexy, the batarang controller isn't. one thing about sony is that they typically make sweet looking hardware.



which, makes this offense of a controller so terrible. smooth. yes. shiny. sure. elegant? nope.



which, reminds me. i'd like to point out that i don't believe i've ever called it a "boomerang." i've always called it a "batarang." and, for good reason.



http://img5.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thebatmantvgame074el.jpg



"Dude, this controller can perfectly sit in your leg with its smooth curves, as opposed to the original sharp edged Dual Shock."



are we looking at the same controller? allow me to demonstrate with an enlarged, detail view. (we'll even assume that guy has average sized hands, tho, his pointer fingers look more like a garden hose wrapped around that thing.)



http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thebatarangprong7uf.jpg



notice his pinky (#4 in the image) wraps around the controller. meaning, it sticks out the bottom. not only that, but you can actually SEE THE DAMN THING POKING OUT!



now, go and grab your favorite controller. set it on your lap like you are playing comfortably. can you see it poking out below the heel of your hand? does any piece of plastic touch your leg? or is it all wrapped up in your hands so that your fingers or the heel actually lay in your lap? there's a reason for that. flesh to flesh, not plastic to flesh. good controller design. always has been, always will be.



even the most gigantic controller ever to grace the earth - the hideous "duke" from microsoft still had that quality. that's why it was so hard to reach the black and white buttons. because the bottom corners of the controller tucked neatly into the bottom crease of your hand.



even the duke didn't go so far as to poke out the bottom.



so, yes, the current playstation 3 controller:



1) is ugly.



2) looks uncomfortable to hold for long periods of time.



3) will definitly poke you in the legs if it sits on your lap.



having been in similar situations, i can actually see a bunch of designers (none of whom play video games) sitting around a conference table, passing the controller around. all of them holding it out in front of them, on the table or even standing up -- nodding to each other in agreement. "ooooh! this is edgy and different!" i would bet not a one of them held it in their lap for a couple hours while they were watching tv.



it screams design by non-gamers.



look on the bright side, tho. since it appears designed by non-gamers, maybe it'll ship with an accompanying "boppy."



m3mnoch.



p.s. you are falling back into your mode of absolutist statements without substantial reasoning or support.

Well m3mnoch, we will just have to see what happens when it is released (or to see if it is actually released). We will see if the "uncomfortable look" is what makes people think it is ugly, or if it was just plain ugly. Good job at pointing at the "prong".



To be honest, I actually did think of "boomerang" when I first saw it, and I didn't like it because "it doesn't seem comfortable", not because it looks like a lesbian dildo; that until I saw the link I posted. If it seems that I'm making an "absolute statement" when I say that "it definitely looks cool", I'd like to clarify that I meant it just as an opinion. I guess I will only have lesbos agree with me then.



Anyway, kizza, you are pretty funny my friend. I'd respond to all your lack of sense and understanding, but why bother. I'll let you live in your little fantasy world, so don't worry and be happy.

ah. something else that i never really thought of, so i can't take credit for it: using bluetooth.



xbox.com's major nelson was interviewing the accessories guy from the microsoft team. he was talking about how using a broad and general wireless protocol like bluetooth (or uwb or 802.11 or whatever) is going to have latency issues due to the extraneous overhead and that's why they didn't go that way with the 360's controllers.



is the wireless firmware on the ps3 just a wrapper around bluetooth? will that add latency? is that one of the reasons wireless controllers in the past have sucked?



at first, i thought having a proprietary wireless protocol was just microsoft being microsoft. after hearing why, and not noticing any latency at all with the controller (as opposed to other wireless controllers i've used... erg.) i'm inclined to agree with them. that's the way to go.



strip out all of the extra handshaking layers of a wireless connection and just get down to the core.



m3mnoch.

Non gamers would design it about as much as nintendo &ms suits design controllers. I agree, & cannot fathom how it could be comfortable, but I dont understand the reasoning that it will poke holes in your legs with prolonged use. The edges do not seem to sport razor blades that will slice you when rested on your legs, they don't seem sharp at all. Usually when most people play on a lounge chair (where games should be played), they would rest there forearms on there legs, not there hands or controller. I do not see this part of your point memnoch. But as for the rest, I agree, it looks like a hybrid baterang/boomerang. But I do not believe this to be the reason it looks uncomfortable. I believe the current "PROTOTYPE" design faulters more in the button layout combined with the shape. For starters, the anologue sticks look too low & should move up, next the shoulder buttons are badly situated, it needs anaolgue triggers for shooters (not racers, duel anologue is for racers). These are the things that stand out to me, & no matter how much I try to picture it comfortably sitting in my hand....I can't seem to do it.... On saying that.. I like everyone has never held it.... For the person that mentioned the sidewinder... This control seems to be much smaller than MS's bohemith (thank god) & as you said "if you move a couple of buttons, they look the same"....maybe that button movement will be the major difference between comfortablility & shitty design.....Heres to hoping.... at worst if the controller is a total flop, it will change. If these things didn't happen, nobody would have an xbox 1 anymore.



As for mofomojo, you stick to simplicity buddy, the world ain't a simple place anymore. Only a small % of people in the grand scheme of things, want to play mario 3 compared to battlefield, tomb raider, prince of persia, shadow of the colossus, halo,etc,etc.

I'm sure its simple for your fat momma to take your obese @rse to mcdonalds for dinner everynight, but some people would prefer a healthy 4 course meal. Its a bad analogy really, so I'll explain for simplistic thinking minds, we want variety, some people are happy with mario & the gang, others want ratchet or jak plus the myriad of other titles including bad gta rip offs, others want FPS,s, Tom Clancy games, online FPS's, etc, etc. We have consoles at the moment that cater to all fronts.......its just a shame that certain companies (that used to be the dominant console force), can't get there act together & cater to everyone, if they could produce a developer friendly machine that lured all the 3rd parties back into there stable, this certain company would be back near no. 1 status. This same certain company caused there own problems by constantly burning developers & publishers with high exclusive cartridge costs. Thats why the leaders are who they are.



I say this having owned a nes, snes, 64 & until recently..cube. I also add snes was my 3rd favourite console (after ps-ps2). I have fond memories of both my nes consoles, but I think greed made them drop the ball. I rememer when ps1 launched & developers could not run fast enough to PS1, to escape the high costs involved with developing for nintendo's licensed cartridges. Maybe developers are suffering more now with bootlegs though.... But if nintendo had been more fair on them with costs.. things would be different now.



Ohh well...to bad...I'm getting a PS3 anyway.....I'll just buy a DS3-type-s when they release it, like ms did.

I don't see anything wrong with this controller anymore. At first I thought it was the worst idea ever but it does serve a good purpose especially the long "arms". The PS2 controller is tiny it self to hold and can be very uncomfortable. I dont really like wireless controllers and I hope it doesn't feel like a toy like the wavebird 2 or xbox controller. It needs to have some weight in it so its not too light and not too heavy.

"Usually when most people play on a lounge chair (where games should be played), they would rest there forearms on there legs, not there hands or controller."



yep. and the wrap-around-the-back-of-your-head headset for live on the first xbox was great because nobody leaned back and put their heads on the couch.



oh. what? they did? people lean back and play? and that's why the headset is over the top now?



that's weird. how do they set their forearms on their legs then? don't they know we're all 12 year olds who sit cross-legged in front of the tv?



what? 50% of gamers are 30 or older? they have houses of their own? not college dorms? not a room in their parents' basement? tv's and living rooms and big, comfy couches to relax on? surround sound and hdtv?



wow.



but... but... but.... what about the lounge chairs, bean bags and futons?



---



and, no. they aren't sharp. you won't bleed out from playing with one. that was a bit of sarcasm added to it. the point is it will be uncomfortable. hold a plastic knob on your legs and let the weight of both your hands press it down. now do that for 3 hours. comfy?



like i said before, no good controller has parts that stick out the bottom. your hand is always there. there are reasons for that.



m3mnoch.

Make it like the GC controller, that's a nifty little piece! But gawd no! NOTHING like the REV.REMOTE-PLEEEEZE!!

Hey M3mnoch, seriously dude. I am really getting tired of your mouth.



Point 1: No one cares how "sexy" a controller looks.

Dude, have you ever heard someone say "Oh, I don't care how awesome this console is, I don't want to buy it because the controller doesn't look pretty"? Ever consider the reason the PSP, iPod, and others of that nature are "sexy" simply because you are staring at them 90% percent of the time? Tell me, do you stare at the controller when you play a game? If you do, please elaborate. I would love to hear. No one cares how a controller looks, it's how it feels. Which brings me to my next point.



Point 2: You have NOT held the damn controller.

But someone has.

http://www.myextralife.com/ftp/ps3hand.jpg

Whoops! Looks like I just trashed your whole "prongs sticking you in your thigh" theory. Doesn't look so incredibly huge, now does it? Did you ever think to consider that in the whole "debunking of the controller" thing that MAYBE it wasn't someone's actual hand holding the controller. Maybe someone was worried more about showing how it will fit the hand at a more comfortable angle rather than showing it to size. Wow, man. People like you set yourself up for stuff like this. Now next time, why don't you think your opinions out completely before trashing everyone else. So, just STFU. You can just go sit in a corner and pout when the PS3 comes out because you don't want it, right? I mean who wants a console with a controller that isn't pretty?



-Jaylati, Sony Gamer Advisory Panel

"Anyway, kizza, you are pretty funny my friend. I'd respond to all your lack of sense and understanding, but why bother. I'll let you live in your little fantasy world, so don't worry and be happy."





Tell your momma to stop coming round & unsheathing her hairy, scary, axe wound on me, then I won't have to worry & I'll be very happy. My opinion is the only one that counts. I realise like @rseholes everyone has one, but I don't neccassarily want to hear from yours, let alone smell the stenge it omits.



Now go away & stick your N-64 controller, up your N-@rse, you N-vukking, N-idiot, that sukks N-dikk, & takes it up the N-bum, you N-retard.

INTERESTING FACT:



m3mnoch's attitude toward the current PS3 controller mirrors his attitude toward common eating utensils.



He feels that both are too pointy and, after prolonged use, might poke his tender widdle wegs.

wow, people sure are friendly towards eachother in here...



It's weird though, m3mnoch simply said what he thought, never trashed anyone, but gets trashed. I wonder why...

Only, he's smart enough not to reply to that.

Respect man, really.



Saw some funny designs untill now ^^;

"41. #35 I've an Xbox 360 and the controller is nothing special .If your friends don't know what button to press after just looking at the controller a few times or playing a few minutes then they are as dumb as you.Oh i found a picture of your buddy playing a game"



firstly, theyre not all hardcore losers like you who spend all day, every day playing games. some dont even play at all. only when round at mine. there is a reason why mario kart is the easiest game for them to play, and its fast and uses a lot of buttons. "whats go?" "green" - not "x"



i find the playstation controller a doddle to use, but not everyone does.



and m3nnach, im with you. but theres no point, kizaa starts of valid soemtimes and ends up spillin out some bullshit about your mum having hairy legs. maybe if he stopped being such an sarcastic asshole i'd take his view more seriously. he's here for the flaming, not the discussion.



the cube was by far the comfiest controller of last gen (maybe ever), except that z button and yellow stick. ok, maybe the buttons were a bit idiot proof but anyone could use it easily. surely a good thing? but i think the ds and 360 four button face will be around for a long time



the ps3 controller, i agree about the prongs stabbing you. and i dont see how even if it turns out to be comfy to hold, how you press the r1 and l1 easily. they seem to high up on the edge of the controller.



http://video.i4u.com/index.php?url=Sony_PS3_at_CES_2006.mpg&p=3 theres a rotating view of the controller if u wait. discard what she says though

http://www.imageviper.com/dip/22303/ctr.jpg



the redesign is SIMPLE. Flop the left analog stick with the d-pad.

"Now go away & stick your N-64 controller, up your N-@rse, you N-vukking, N-idiot, that sukks N-dikk, & takes it up the N-bum, you N-retard."



Ah... The irony. lol

The Xbox 360 controller, while it is nice, also has it's flaws: The headset puck that now sticks off of the bottom of the controller (rather than the top on the old Xbox) gets annoying while you 'casually game' with your hands and the controller resting in your lap over extended sessions.



The wiring connection to the headset is not going to survive as well as if it were out of the way on the top, and trust me, I am a very casual adult that takes excellent care of my tech-devices.



As for interface and ergonomics, I like the symmetrical nature of the analog joystick-layout on the PS2's DualShock, but it doesn't really matter, you generally get used to anything if you really want to play the games.



I mean, really, get over the 'boomerang/dildo' thing, who cares? Kids up on here acting like that's the deal-breaker for buying a PS3 wouldn't be buying one anyway.

You people mocking the nintendo controllers are absolute retards. Whether your an xbox fanboy or a playstation fanboy, your using a nintendo controller. That guy who basahed the n64 controller is the worst, how the hell can someone complain about only having one analogue stick on the n64 pad? It was the first analogue stick! Look at the first dual shock pad, it is a snes pad with extra shoulder buttons. Look at the second dual shock, another snes pad with two of Nintendos analogue sticks slapped on. The latest dual shock is the same, but unfeasably ugly. While your discussing controllers or even gaming in general, what are you using thats not been invented by Nintendo? By the way im not a Nintendo fanboy, i own all the consoles that have been discussed here (excluding next gen), i just dont think people give Nintendo credit for their controllers.

This would rid of all the useless buttons....



http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/5966/control8go.jpg

As much as I dislike sonys bussiness practices I've always liked the controler. The only thing they need to do is to swap the control pad and the left analog stick (make them concave)and put triggers like the xbox.



I think sony could really innovate the industry by taking a look at what nintendo is doing. By making the controller more simple you invite more gamers into the industry and with sonys large market share they could do something good for everyone. Just a week ago my dad tried Halo but soon became frustrated and ask why don't they have two buttons, Shoot and run. So lets hope that sony wises up and tries a simpler approach to gaming.

INTERESTING FACT:



baron vas deferens's is a tube that chokes down sperm. and, evidently, does his duty as directed by his king, king scrotum.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vas_deferens



---



try to keep up, man. stay on topic. if you need us to slow down for you, just say so. just please, next time, try not to dribble on the thread.



m3mnoch.

"Hey M3mnoch, seriously dude. I am really getting tired of your mouth."



sorry to hear that. go somewhere else.



"Point 1: No one cares how "sexy" a controller looks."



<sarcasm>

yep. true. that's exactly why the whole world is laughing at the proposed controller for the ps3. what? they are? hrm. there goes that theory.



afterall, nobody called the gamecube a purse either. that one too? damn.



let's see... um. the nokia n-gage wasn't a taco! crap. it was, wasn't it?



i dunno. what do you think? do people care about how the controller looks? what the hell do all those people attending industrial design courses know? they are just wasting their time. nobody cares what their products look like!

</sarcasm>





"Point 2: You have NOT held the damn controller. But someone has."



this one is actually almost interesting. it totally changes my opinion.



"Whoops! Looks like I just trashed your whole "prongs sticking you in your thigh" theory."



it sure as hell does....



i'm not afraid of the prongs stabbing me now. i'm afraid of the incredible cramps in my hands that thing's gonna cause. hell. if i can even find it. sneeze, and there it goes! right out the window!



my god! you could palm that thing! it's absolutely tiny! that's terrible! even worse than the prongs! it'll cost everyone an extra $12 for a magnifying glass and a pair of tweezers to play.



picture that girls's (or guy. sorry, can't tell. all this metrosexual "i'm still a man tho i wear women's gloves and use their skin care products" stuff.) left hand holding it. not only would his thumb extend all the way over the right thumbstick. and, his left index finger would wrap all the way over the top and be pushing the right shoulder button.



and, how much can 3 square inches of plastic weigh? i bet that thing feels like holding a highlighter marker.



and, heaven help you if you miss it sitting on the couch (very likely due to the fact it's embarrasingly tiny!) and sit on it. snap! there goes your "i paid $40 for this?" controller.



on the bright side, tho, you could always get zoolander to be your spokesperson.





ill trooper:

i agree. those pucks for the headsets are terrible. who in their right mind makes a mute button... er.... switch like that? tho, i don't think it would be better on top. that damn wire always got in my way.



why can't we have a simple jack on the face of the controller with the mute being on the cord -- just like every other headset?



bd:

well done.



m3mnoch.

I learned a while ago that m3mnoch is th3 d3vil, so it is futile to argue with him, though I have no qualms with the majority of his posts (kizza, on the other hand...). bd is still ironing out his blatant fanboisms which makes his posts more palatable than before (before being when he was like kizza).



From a visual perspective, the PS3's controller does not look promising, and that is coming from a casual gamer- nothing hardcore about me. Having used the 360 controller, I find that design the best to date. I do think the mute 'switch' should be a button like the original, but I like the lower position rather than the top position.



Not sure why people are raggin' on the N64 controller. It was the best of its generation and the analog stick was a godsend. Sure, the fork design wasn't perfect, but it was more comfortable than others we had used. The PS3 may be comfortable, but it doesn't appear to be, and the lay-out doesn't look intuitively functional. Again, just a casual gamers observations, I could be totally surprised, or righteously correct come launch day, if this is the final design.

dammit. i just read the last line in frexy's comment. sorry to let you down, dude. i guess i'm not that smart.



*sigh*



yeah. my smarts lose out to being funny everytime. i'm a sucker like that for an easy *smack*.



m3mnoch.

futile! funny.... (nice work on 'th3 d3vil' btw.)



and, when have you or i actually debated? we seem to agree on most everything. my opinion is usually a little louder and more sarcastic, but they sway the same direction i think.



i tell you what, tho, i will rejoice when bd and i agree! that'll be a happy day.



m3mnoch.

No, you and I haven't crossed swords yet. I chided some of your tactics in the "highly anticipated" thread, but typically we are on the same page (whether or not it is good to be on the same page as "th3 d3vil" is another subject).



Anyway, not sure how you an bd will ever come to an agreement, but perhaps when your vacation home freezes over, there will be a mutual understanding and respect. Until then, flame on! Ha! Just kidding. kizza does enough flaming for everyone (kizza and bd are bascially on the same page, kizza is just more of ass and didn't realize it and flammed a potential ally. His loss.)



BTW- I need a link to your blog again as I can't seem to find the last one...

I don't plan on getting any of the new systems on launch, waiting for price drop and game library to grow. But for some reason, as soon as my girlfriend laid eyes on the PS3 controller she has been wanting to buy one!

heh. even i chided some of my tactics. tho, it was funny. (see my note above about funny vs. smart) and true. i specifically remember walking down the hall, talking to ben, telling him about this guy i was dragging along on a hook. that started it all. mean, yet funny.



and, the blog is linked to my name in every post.

http://www.addictingentertainment.com



i'm working on an unreal/doom engine comparison right now.



and, yeah. kizza seems a bit full of bile without any wit. his arguments lose a lot of water that way.



m3mnoch.

"But for some reason, as soon as my girlfriend laid eyes on the PS3 controller she has been wanting to buy one!"



See what I tell ya m3mnoch? lol



It's not that I want to disagree with you, I just happen to find some of your statements a little exaggerated (like Sony taking a loss of 400 dollars for each PS3 sold, which would make sense to me if Sony sold globally at the end of 2010 in total less consoles than what the first Xbox has sold in japan, no blu-ray discs nor stand-alone players sold, and no cell processors anywhere to be found in computers, cell phones and future PSPs).



I also just happen to like the PS3 controller because it seems edgy, or not conservative (but that is probably the reason why it looks like Dolce & Gabbana designed it, and not Carmack and Miyamoto); it's not perfect, but I find it great. My perfect controller would have the 6-button face almost horizontal layout like the N64 controller (not the vertical one that the Xbox had).



The 360 controller seems to be great for size and functionality, I'm just unimpressed since it looks like taken from the lemma "if it works, don't fix it". Of course, it looks great, but where is the innovation? When it comes to gameplay I mean, I'm not talking about the dashboard/LIVE button nor the wireless features. I think most people are excited about the 36 controller because it is like "Wow! now they got it right!".



Someone above showed the controller being grabbed, and it doesn't look as big as the "demo" I presented (which showed how prongs stuck out of the hands).



As I said the last time, we will see until we grab it. Probably most casual/non-gamers won't give a damn if it looks stylish, and it looks like women just love it, just like porn stars love the PSP.



Grindstone, I salute you, although I think comparing me to Kizza, even at my worst, is an exaggeration.

Two things need to happen

1. move the most used device (the analog stick) under the resting position of the thumb on the left side.

2. utilize a low-power OLED display in the center. With a docking station for the wireless controller it should not drain the battery too much, while its small size should not affect the cost (see similar screens on cheap cell phones coming out of the far east right now)



The OLED screen would be about 20x3 characters and could contain game-specific info (the pitch you are going to throw an opponent while not allowing them to see, or a play call in Madden), or it could display the button layout for a game (so you never have to look it up through the menu system again).



Behold!



http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b177/troyzilla/ps3prototype.jpg

"See what I tell ya m3mnoch? lol"



ha! awesome! yeah. that makes me laugh. tho, i'm pretty sure he was alluding to the fact that the controller resembles a particular type of sex toy. sexy, not "sexy."



and, about the ps3 losing crap-tons of money, it most certainly will. i've pretty much exhausted thinking and writing about it, tho. it's here for posterity's sake:



http://m3mnoch.wordpress.com/2006/01/10/sony-blu-ray-mistake-faq/



last but not least - aha! you and i agree on the xbox 360 controller! woot!



where we don't agree is the need for a "gimmicky" controller that enhances "gameplay" and is still a general purpose controller.



the reason niche control mechanisms aren't in general purpose controllers is that, by definition, they are niche. especially in controllers.



it's just hard to justify the design cost (not monetary, but square footage-wise) of mucking with controllers to add in features that only 20% of the games would use. did microsoft go safe with the 360 controller? yep. did they need to? maybe not. will it matter? probably not.



i still have a love/hate relationship with the revolution controller. the part of me that says "this could be so cool!" is battling with the more practical "not every game will wave a lightsaber or fishing pole around!" comfort, design, coolness, usability. all things that are really hard to balance.



when the analog stick came out, it was like, duh! why isn't everyone supporting this? this time around, i'm not as sure.



but, this ps3 controller... bleagh. maybe if they made it bigger in general and just shortened up the prongs substantially. i'd be into that, i think. the upside down 'u' shape has a lot of potential. i just don't think it's a very good implementation of it.



personally, i think a short, yet really wide 'm' shape would be a fantastic base. maybe i'll draw something up. oooh! or i could do it in 3d! there's an idea. or maybe have tadd do it. he'd be faster. hmmmm.



anyway. sorry. just stream of conciousness there.



m3mnoch.

or this link



http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b177/troyzilla/ps3prototype.jpg

Paper Shredder 3 comes with a Banana for a controller and a $463 price tag! Hahaha!



I like the Sony branded Nintendo Revolution ripoff image best. THAT at least looks innovative.

"ha! awesome! yeah. that makes me laugh. tho, i'm pretty sure he was alluding to the fact that the controller resembles a particular type of sex toy. sexy, not "sexy.""





Perhaps, but it seems that sony toys are indeed popular among girls; porn Stars love the PSP. Also, one of the female reporters at the CES said she loved the PS3 design, just as she loves her PS2 and PSP (unless she is a fangirl, but maybe one with a reason?).



"and, about the ps3 losing crap-tons of money, it most certainly will. i've pretty much exhausted thinking and writing about it, tho. it's here for posterity's sake:



http://m3mnoch.wordpress.com/2006/01/10/sony-blu-ray-mistake-faq/ "



I actually read it before, and I don't agree. I don't think that having a random economy major agreeing with you is something to back up your claims. Just as I have been told that "for several reasons- reasons that I don't agree with, since they contradict the original risky business model the first Xbox had; I mean, why change it all of a sudden? looks like the Microsoft stockholders got fed with the billionaire loss- Xbox 360 doesn't have HD-DVD out of the box", I also think that your "channel conflicts", despite making sense, would be consistent with reality if it had no support by any other manufacturers, but "for a lot of reasons", it has. PS3 will work as a Trojan Horse for them (and don’t Blu-ray supporters get a bit of Sony’s income on Blu-ray for being part of the group, let alone for each disc sold without having to make such an investment?), so they are happy it opens the gates for Blu-ray so they can enhance and lower the Blu-ray players prices once HDMI-TVs are widely available.



Yes, I believe you on the 3% profit that electronics companies make, there is a lot of competition, but we also have to remember that the Blu-ray backers don't expect to sell that many players at the beginning, that's why they'll cost a fortune (since very little players will be produced in the beginning to make up for the "huge" cost, a cheaper competition that again won't sell that much for both lack of support and lack of HDMI widespread, and because, as you said, the PS3 is a steal).



Since PS3 will be mass produced, the cost of a PS3 Blu-ray player will be a lot less because you can distribute the cost among all the PS3s that will be sold. People will buy it, as you said, because "it's a steal", regardless of having HDMI capabilities on their TVs (hell, even some "HDMI capable TVs" aren't capable, because it appears that any HDMI before version 1.2 was screwed up), let alone an HDTV.



Hell, Blu-ray can even reproduce content in SDTVs, so it would be smart for them to even sell the PS3 as such a novelty, not only because it is prepared for future movies and resolutions, but also because you can get the whole "Family Guy" sitcom in just one disc! lol



"last but not least - aha! you and i agree on the xbox 360 controller! woot!"



Well, I do think they got it right this time. It's "perfect" for what it is designed for. I'm just not impressed. I still prefer the NGC or the renewed PS2 analogue sticks material. They just feel so right.



"where we don't agree is the need for a "gimmicky" controller that enhances "gameplay" and is still a general purpose controller.



I am just used, as many gamers, to have controller and media innovation. Most people don't understand that "Procedural Synthesis" and "unified shaders" will help the 360 compensate for its supposed lacks (which are yet to be seen; you say there will be no problem at all, I say that those new technologies might not be enough, and that there might be problems, but we'll see). For the superficial uninformed eye, the Xbox 360 is an Xbox 1 with better graphics and wireless controllers; then again, for the superficial uninformed eye, they don't know what Blu-ray, haptic feedback, nor High Definition are; that is why Xbox 360 has been so successful



“the reason niche control mechanisms aren't in general purpose controllers is that, by definition, they are niche. especially in controllers.”



I think it’s not bad to try something as long as it doesn’t ruin the standard. The X360 and PS3 controllers are still expandable. What the hell will they add for the PS4 or X4000 then? Nothing? Now I get Nintendo’s point about a dying industry.



“it's just hard to justify the design cost (not monetary, but square footage-wise) of mucking with controllers to add in features that only 20% of the games would use. did microsoft go safe with the 360 controller? yep. did they need to? maybe not. will it matter? probably not.”



It won’t matter, but it could have taken a next step, something, hell, anything! Well, wireless… but gameplay should keep improving. 360 has a lot of support, but everything seems like a rehash. Would the cost of two extra buttons be really that much if they were pleasing fighting game fans all at once? That’s why I miss the Saturn/N64 controllers.



I remember this guy OTAM that prefers Xbox above Nintendo and Sony consoles because “it is the system with less sequels”, but what the hell? I mean, I don’t care if Nintendo keeps unleashing Zeldas and Marios as long as they have different new ways of being played, instead of fifty new FPS. I think what OTAM wants is new genres, not “new franchises, but the same gameplay”, unless saying that “releasing the same franchises” was just an excuse to get an X360. New gameplay or genres might mean new controller features, or maybe even a “revolution”, not just an evolution.



“i still have a love/hate relationship with the revolution controller. the part of me that says "this could be so cool!" is battling with the more practical "not every game will wave a lightsaber or fishing pole around!" comfort, design, coolness, usability. all things that are really hard to balance.”



And for that reason, it will be “the second console of choice” to many. That’s how they will start, until people realize that it is cheaper, that it will get a lot of games, especially original ones; unless it flops, of course. Then, either 360 or PS3 could become the second consoles, I mean, why not? For the classic hardcore gamer, there will be a “shell” anyway, so…



“when the analog stick came out, it was like, duh! why isn't everyone supporting this? this time around, i'm not as sure.”



I have faith, which might make me an N-fan immediately, but just look at the DS and its double screen gimmick’s success. I might be a dreamer, but Nintendo might be the next Apple, long time forgotten and afterwards revived; if only revolution is as successful (or even better) than the DS everywhere. I still don’t understand why those brain training games are not out in the west yet.



“but, this ps3 controller... bleagh. maybe if they made it bigger in general and just shortened up the prongs substantially. i'd be into that, i think. the upside down 'u' shape has a lot of potential. i just don't think it's a very good implementation of it."”



We will see until its out; who knows, I might end up hating it, or you might end up loving it.



"Personally, i think a short, yet really wide 'm' shape would be a fantastic base."



Yellow?? N64 anyone? You could add three extra analogue triggers (L2, R2 and Z2) to that controller and a thumbstick next to the six buttons, plus the "new gimmick" called haptic feedback. That way you don't have to say "hmmm I like the PS2/Xbox where the D-Pad/Analogue is the primary control", because you can still choose whatever position accommodates you better. The second analogue stick is for camera control as usual.

i definitely like the button on xb360's controller that allows you to turn on the system

Banana... Funny... I would rather be Nintendo kiddie than Sony monkey anyday, especially as Nintendo seems to be growing up with online play and the ability to play DVD movies on the Rev (finally.) Anyone got a good insult for MS?

oops, I didn't finish this sentence:



"...High Definition are; that is why Xbox 360 has been so successful..."



...among the casual/non-gaming crowd: Marketing muscle, which is one of Microsoft's most vital strenghts. And the "harcore gamer" wants it either because he was pleased with Xbox 1, because it has lots of support, or just plain because he is a gamer.



Every day it seems more unavoidable not getting it if you are a serious gamer, since every day there are new games announced: a Marvel MMO, even more Japanese RPGs or simply japanese support, Ninja Gaiden, fighting games will be the best on LIVE (unless the Revolution shell is magnificent for fighting games, or the PS3 makes it up with an interesting online service), etcetera, and not just FPS, Western style RPGs, and racing games.

PS3 = PSX - $200 = Doomed

"PS3 = PSX - $200"



Actually it is:



PS3 = PSX + Blu-ray - $200 - Hard Drive - several features that will be optional

-- warning. long....



"the original risky business model the first Xbox had"

the business model the original xbox had was all about time to market. ideally, they would have liked to spend 3 or 4 years (like they did with the 360) to get the hardware right, to design and own all of the ip, to gather detailed information as to what game developers want to develop for. but, they didn't.



they went from zero. no ideas. no thoughts. no previous entry into the market. to launch in 2.5 years. it wasn't even announced until gdc in 2000. the ps2 was already unloading on japan. it was a monster game of catch up, no matter the cost.



contrast that with the development cycle for the 360. it started almost immediately after the launch of the original one. the first xbox was just a stop-gap to stake out part of a claim in the living rooms of the world.



there's actually a pretty interesting section in the book 'smartbomb' about it. the book, by the way, is a good read. not the typical dry 'history of video games' kind of thing. the narrative is great.



anyway.



"I also think that your "channel conflicts", despite making sense, would be consistent with reality if it had no support by any other manufacturers, but "for a lot of reasons", it has."



i don't really understand what you are saying here. you are saying that manufacturers will back them, so there will be no channel conflict? that's sort of how they work: the oem (sony in this case) says 'i won't sell these below your cost' and after other manufacturers start selling them, sony would turn around and 'sell them below their cost.' by definition, you have to have manufacturers on board before you have a channel. you have to have a channel before you have conflicts.



my suspicion is kutaragi has told partners like pioneer (their price is the most drastically inflated and has percieved room to move when the 'cheap' ps3 blu-ray player comes out.) that the ps3 will be expensive and won't obliterate their channel. but, as you say "PS3 will work as a Trojan Horse for them," so where's the point in manufacturing blu-ray drives no one will buy? why make movies for a format that only sony will use? why build hardware for a movie format without a library? *cough* laserdisc *cough* umd *cough*



now, as to whether or not companies like pioneer or samsung actually get money from sony? i doubt it. on their site, http://www.blu-raydisc.info/ it looks like sony is the trustee of the licensing. however, samsung and pioneer, for example, are listed as having obtained licenses -- not sony.



now, i'm sure the 'big 9' were gifted licenses and didn't have to pay for them. it'd be dumb not to. but, i can't imagine profit sharing amongst them. if it was a co-owner type arangement, why the need for licenses from the other 8 of the 9?



no. sony's running the show here.



but, are they running it into the ground? afterall, hp's jumping ship because of the prohibitive cost of blu-ray drives. http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technology/archives/2005/12/18/bluray_royalties_30_per_pc_drive.html why shouldn't anyone else? especially when they are being told that the cost of hd-dvd is only 10% more than a standard dvd drive?



that's what happens when, instead of bumping it from .60 to .65 like hd-dvd does, you take the aperture all the way out to an impossible-to-manufacture-highly-error-prone-super-expensive .85. your price per drive goes from 10% more than a standard dvd drive to 1000% more.



cutting edge, yes. cost concious, no. manufacturers not on the board are starting to see that. even staunch supporters (like hp was only last october) of blu-ray are reversing their opinion -- because of cost.



"Since PS3 will be mass produced, the cost of a PS3 Blu-ray player will be a lot less because you can distribute the cost among all the PS3s that will be sold."



and, that's just silly. i think i called it the jeff bezos loss leadership school somewhere. 'we take a loss on each product, but make it up in volume!'



say, you make 1,000,000 instead of 10,000 but, you are going from a loss of $400 to a loss of only $200 with 'volume discounts.' cutting the cost in half! so, instead of your company losing $4 million, you'd lose $200 million! brilliant! because at the end of the day, that's still a net loss -- even if you sell all of the units.



you can spread capital costs over the product's volume, not any type of recuring costs associated with the manufacturing. so, they could amortize, say, r&d costs out over time. not the cost of actually manufacturing each unit.



you should spend some time in a boardroom every now and then. you'd be amazed at what you learn.



"Now I get Nintendo’s point about a dying industry."



yep. just like tv has been dying for the last 50 years since the advent of color television. it's not dying.



hardware innovation comes slowly and is always an evolution and not a revolution. do you think microsoft isn't saying 'hey we had a remote control that ran the xbox!' and sony's not saying 'hey! our eyetoy controlled the action with your movements!' if it was a 'revolution' how did that kid or that other company both come up with designs similar to the revolution's controller -- each independently and seperate of the team at nintendo?



same reason a lot of patents should be invalidated -- due to obviousness. but, that's a whole 'nuther thing.



it's the content. the software. the games. the movies. those are all driving forces of innovation. not the hardware. hardware is just a tool. like a hammer. how many innovative hammers have you seen take off? it's what you make with the tool that determines innovative or not.



ultimately, it's not in the hands of the hardware developers to push innovation, it's the game developers.



it's like the movie, 'good night, good luck.' it was made this last year. filmed in black and white. could have been made in the 30's. even tho it can be delivered on basically hardware from the 30's, it's nominated for golden globes and oscars this century.



content is king. it always will be.



m3mnoch.

How about making it EXACTLY like the Xbox 360 controller, except with the PS2 dualshock's D-pad? Then it would be a PERFECT controller.

“the business model the original xbox had was all about time to market. ideally, they would have liked to spend 3 or 4 years (like they did with the 360) to get the hardware right, to design and own all of the ip, to gather detailed information as to what game developers want to develop for. but, they didn't. “



Yeah, but it’s just unusual to see a company willing to waste 5 billion dollars and then just willing to break even instead of “wasting” another 5 billion to make the 360 a steal, when they actually have it; you know, like a crazy billionaire venture. That would have been the real deal; and what the heck, make LIVE free in the long run. That could give Microsoft another monopoly that they have always wanted.



“they went from zero. no ideas. no thoughts. no previous entry into the market. to launch in 2.5 years. it wasn't even announced until gdc in 2000. the ps2 was already unloading on japan. it was a monster game of catch up, no matter the cost.”



Well, that explains the first controllers and lack of Japanese favorites.



“contrast that with the development cycle for the 360. it started almost immediately after the launch of the original one. the first xbox was just a stop-gap to stake out part of a claim in the living rooms of the world.”



Of course, that is why it is relatively better than the last one.



“there's actually a pretty interesting section in the book 'smartbomb' about it. the book, by the way, is a good read. not the typical dry 'history of video games' kind of thing. the narrative is great.



anyway.”



I’ll have to read that.



“i don't really understand what you are saying here. you are saying that manufacturers will back them, so there will be no channel conflict? that's sort of how they work: the oem (sony in this case) says 'i won't sell these below your cost' and after other manufacturers start selling them, sony would turn around and 'sell them below their cost.' by definition, you have to have manufacturers on board before you have a channel. you have to have a channel before you have conflicts.”



What I tried to say is that they’ve planned it all along (Sony and every Blu-ray supporter), and they know that the PS3 will be a steal. Most people that bought their first DVD player as a PS2 already have another DVD player anyway, and it’s not like everyone will buy “a PS3 instead”. There are Blu-ray players with more features than just a Blu-ray reader, like DVR capabilities and such; they’ll sell few, but that’s why they are expensive (along the novelty it is).



“my suspicion is kutaragi has told partners like pioneer (their price is the most drastically inflated and has percieved room to move when the 'cheap' ps3 blu-ray player comes out.) that the ps3 will be expensive and won't obliterate their channel. but, as you say "PS3 will work as a Trojan Horse for them," so where's the point in manufacturing blu-ray drives no one will buy? why make movies for a format that only sony will use? why build hardware for a movie format without a library? *cough* laserdisc *cough* umd *cough*”



Funny how I think that Microsoft is stupid for not including an HD-DVD player, making it a steal, and how at the same time, you think it’s stupid for Sony to do the same. Then again, maybe both are doing the right thing, or neither did. We will see how Blu-ray players stack against each other, PS3, 360 and HD-DVD players and that’s when we will know for sure. I think we’ve gone too far on speculation. Wasn’t Laserdisc a Pioneer format anyway? And last thing I heard, UMD movies aren’t doing that bad, but I could be wrong, since I have a PSP and don’t have any movies on it (nor good must-own games on it, for that matter).



“now, as to whether or not companies like pioneer or samsung actually get money from sony? i doubt it. on their site, http://www.blu-raydisc.info/ it looks like sony is the trustee of the licensing. however, samsung and pioneer, for example, are listed as having obtained licenses -- not sony.”



Well, Toshiba basically won the DVD format micro-war but let Sony include some of its technology on it. From what I know, Sony has a small share of the profit of DVD sales, which is what pissed Sony (and Phillips) because if they had won with SACD, they would have made a fortune; but they still get some income out of DVDs sold for being part of the group. It’s likely that Sony will get the most revenue out of this, but probably TDK, Panasonic, etcetera won’t come out empty-handed (besides the sales of blu-ray discs and players of their own).



“now, i'm sure the 'big 9' were gifted licenses and didn't have to pay for them. it'd be dumb not to. but, i can't imagine profit sharing amongst them. if it was a co-owner type arangement, why the need for licenses from the other 8 of the 9?”



“no. sony's running the show here.”



Ok, so Sony is getting all the profit, contrary to what happened with DVD? Why would it have so much support then? Why would companies be so stupid to support a prohibitively costly format when they are getting almost nothing in exchange?



“but, are they running it into the ground? afterall, hp's jumping ship because of the prohibitive cost of blu-ray drives. http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technology/archives/2005/12/18/bluray_royalties_30_per_pc_drive.html why shouldn't anyone else? especially when they are being told that the cost of hd-dvd is only 10% more than a standard dvd drive?”



I think the cost is “only 10%” because Microsoft wants it to win, so they’ll price accordingly. It might not be crazy to think that HP got smacked by Microsoft after being such a strong contender for Blu-ray, and then bails because “there is no iHD support”, despite getting their candy on the DRM.



“that's what happens when, instead of bumping it from .60 to .65 like hd-dvd does, you take the aperture all the way out to an impossible-to-manufacture-highly-error-prone-super-expensive .85. your price per drive goes from 10% more than a standard dvd drive to 1000% more.”



Well, we will only know about the 1000% increase if Sony ends up with either the whole Blu-ray market, or bankrupt (or both?) after the PS3 lives its generation.



“cutting edge, yes. cost concious, no. manufacturers not on the board are starting to see that. even staunch supporters (like hp was only last october) of blu-ray are reversing their opinion -- because of cost.”



Why is Dell not bailing out? Or most others? HP is still backing Blu-ray anyway. They just wanted their “iHD support”. It seems that Microsoft is on this till the end, despite the fact that “everything is going online”.



“and, that's just silly. i think i called it the jeff bezos loss leadership school somewhere. 'we take a loss on each product, but make it up in volume!'”



Well, if Sony is willing, I don’t care, like every non-sony stockholder.



“say, you make 1,000,000 instead of 10,000 but, you are going from a loss of $400 to a loss of only $200 with 'volume discounts.' cutting the cost in half! so, instead of your company losing $4 million, you'd lose $200 million! brilliant! because at the end of the day, that's still a net loss -- even if you sell all of the units.”



Well, they are willing, which is great because we are getting a steal!



“you can spread capital costs over the product's volume, not any type of recuring costs associated with the manufacturing. so, they could amortize, say, r&d costs out over time. not the cost of actually manufacturing each unit.”



That’s what I was talking about; and for a reason, PS3, Blu-ray players and discs will “go down in price almost immediately to a competitive price”, which signals that the cost of each unit isn’t as high as the R&D costs; I could be wrong though. We have to wait until everything is laid out.



“you should spend some time in a boardroom every now and then. you'd be amazed at what you learn.”



Right you are. I’ve been in feminism, middle-eastern conflict, technology and videogames, religion, gay rights, etcetera boardrooms; and man, you get informed, want it or not!



“yep. just like tv has been dying for the last 50 years since the advent of color television. it's not dying.”



Well, the 80’s market crash was due to the lack of originality in games, so Nintendo came and revived it (sort of). The same could happen if we keep getting the same genres with little changes, let alone the same franchises over and over again.



“hardware innovation comes slowly and is always an evolution and not a revolution.”



We will see what happens when the DS and the Revolution lifespans come to their respective ends.



“ do you think microsoft isn't saying 'hey we had a remote control that ran the xbox!' and sony's not saying 'hey! our eyetoy controlled the action with your movements!' if it was a 'revolution' how did that kid or that other company both come up with designs similar to the revolution's controller -- each independently and seperate of the team at nintendo?”



Well, it means that sooner or later we were gonna implement it. The difference is that Nintendo had the balls (and the need) to unleash it right now. Just compare PS3 and Xbox 360. They did it not only because they were squished by Sony and Microsoft, they also did it because we are getting a massive amount of sequels, but most importantly, the same genres over and over again, refried instead of new genres. Nintendo just felt we needed something “drastic”, and it is if you compare it with the other two controllers.



“same reason a lot of patents should be invalidated -- due to obviousness. but, that's a whole 'nuther thing.”



Yeah, but there are always “misunderstandings”, let alone stupidity; for a reason there is always a sign when somebody is explicitly cleaning the floor: “CAUTION! Wet floor”.



“it's the content. the software. the games. the movies. those are all driving forces of innovation. not the hardware. hardware is just a tool. like a hammer. how many innovative hammers have you seen take off? it's what you make with the tool that determines innovative or not.”



And I agree. It’s up to Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft make the input devices, the space of the media, and the online services worth it with content.



“ultimately, it's not in the hands of the hardware developers to push innovation, it's the game developers.”



And fortunately, console manufacturers also develop games.



“it's like the movie, 'good night, good luck.' it was made this last year. filmed in black and white. could have been made in the 30's. even tho it can be delivered on basically hardware from the 30's, it's nominated for golden globes and oscars this century.”



You could do an analogy here to retro-gaming. Would that movie have been equally successful after the “color revolution” in cinema? Who knows.



“content is king. it always will be.”



Indeed. Well, I think we’ve pretty much said it and repeated our points very clearly, and the only thing left is to see what happens.

agreed. topic exhausted. totally a wait and see thing.

as ron burgundy says: agree to disagree.

heh. next time you are in boise, let me know. we'll go have a beer and get some serious debatin' on. that'd be cool.

m3mnoch.

Agreed; Ron Burgundy... hilarious.

If I happen to go over there, I'll sign in to addicting entertainment, and do whatever I have to do.

bd

When it comes down to it, the design of the PS3 controller isn’t that much different from its predecessors.

Think about it. What were the best video game controllers prior to the release of Xbox 360 controller and the PS3 conceptual design controller? The only ones that come to my mind are Logitech’s latest wireless controller for the PS2 and Xbox, and Nintendo’s Wavebird controller.

Take a look at the features of the Xbox 360 controller. It pretty much has the same features as Logitech’s wireless controller, except that they had included a port for the Xbox Live headset and the Xbox Live Guide button on the wireless controller. This along with its light weight shows that Microsoft had taken what other manufacturers had done with previous platform and improved upon them. In terms of adaptation, gamers from the previous generation can look at it and immediate know how to use it. The fact that the controller is very ergonomic is an added plus.

Now look at the conceptual design of the Playstation 3 controller. In terms of functionality, as far as I know, it should work similar to the way of Logitech’s wireless controller for the PS2, except for its Bluetooth functionality. Right now, we can’t tell how the controller would feel in hand, but the benefits of the controller look like they are more focused on its ergonomic design. In comparison to the Logitech controller, the PS3’s controller looks like it could be a smaller, more solid controller. However, in comparison to the PS2 dual shock controller, the new design is definitely more ergonomic and convenient, benefiting from wireless technology. It’s obvious that, even though the Xbox 360’s controller has great design and released prior to the PS3 controller, Sony had not taken into consideration what the competitors are doing in terms of controller design. Even though the PS3 controller is a concept design, I doubt that Sony will change the controller very much. From a business standpoint, it would not make sense to completely redesign the conceptual model that had already been shown to the public not very far from its release. A complete redesign of the controller would make it appear that the console manufacturer is not certain about their vision of the product. Considering that the functionality and design of the controller is not drastically different than the best controller for its previous console, I wouldn’t expect the design of the controller to make or break the success of the Playstation 3.

Nintendo is the only company to take initiative and change the way we control our games. I think that it is the Revolution’s controller that we should be more concerned about rather than the ergonomics of the Playstation 3 controller. The Revolution’s controller is the only controller that could make or break its next generation system. Since Nintendo had decided to throw what had made previous video game controllers great out the window, they are the ones who are at risk with their controversial controller design. It’s because of this that I love Nintendo for bringing something new to the table. It’s nice to see that the games we play don’t always have to be played the same way. To me, it’s like playing with a bouncing ball for the longest time, then someone invents a Frisbee. It’s definitely something that looks to be a fun concept and I’d like to try when it comes out.

In the end, let Sony deliver the controller that they had originally intended. They’re not going to change it much and it’s not going to affect the success of the Playstation 3 very much either. If that is how Sony plans to do their controllers, then let them be.

I have an idea. Lets just use a mouse and a keyboard :)