Hmm. Awkward.

He also has a track, I can't call it a song, called "Cartoon Network", in which he goes to a hiphop party with SpongeBob, the PowderPuff Girls, and Bart Simpson...

hmmm...

And you worked in a reference to the Flying Spaghetti Monster. How precious.

Awesome. Just...awesome.

Yeah! FSM r0xx0rz.

Dude, KJ-52 rocks. Don't knock it!

Man, you'd think that with all of the poor, sick, and dying people in the streets, these idiots would have something better to do. I guess convinctions only go as far as the studio and the record store, huh?

Stupid.

This is one of my favorite rappers!!! Right next to T-bone and tobyMac. Yeah!!!!!!

Ouch DG, I'm no KJ fan, but that's a bit harsh.

So, how about you, with all of the poor, sick, and dying people in the streets, what are you doing?

Eh, I was about to type some big sanctimonious response, but it's not really worth the effort. Suffice to say, using Jesus as a muse is fine. Using Jesus as a muse to sell records? I'm not so sure that jibes with the Bible. But I could be wrong.

Where did this come from? No I am not bashing you for late material, but this kinda comes out of the blue. I am a big KJ fan, this has been out for a while, but I am just wondering, how did this pop up?

Oh well. Looking for things to do while waiting for TP. Maybe I'll have another LOTR viewing, then follow that up with a starwars-a-thon.

DG:

Since all the poor, sick and dying people in the streets probably don't own a CD player, it would only be logical to assume these people aren't Christian musician's main demographic. The audience artists like these generally try to target are secular music listeners who would normally pick up an Eminem album. This gives people the choice to listen to something a little more lyrically positive without changing the style of the music.

If it really means anything to you, many, if not all Christian artists donate part of their earnings to various charities and organizations as well as go on mission trips or sometimes even finance large mission trips, but the main goal is to witness to an otherwise unreligious music listener.

Hey DG, you probably don't know about the relationship between Christian musians and Compassion but here's a little info for you.

These artist record music, then go on tour and the tour sponsored by Compassion. During the concert the attendee's are given a chance to sponsor a child in impoverished situations. Thousands of children get sponsored at these musicians concerts every year.

I don't know if KJ-52 works with Compassion but I do know that many other Christian artist do. Over the last 20 years, more than 130,000 Compassion child sponsorships have resulted from the involvement of artists who have worked with Compassion.

If you'd like to read about it: http://www.compassion.com/about/musicians/default.htm

DG, obviously, I can't speak for these artists, but I'm sure their motives are pure. You do have to remember, they, like everyone else, need clothes to wear and food to eat, and have families to take care of.

Most non Christian musicians that make a living off of their creative work do so without issue, it really shouldn't be any different for Christians either.

"space invader" might be a pun, ie "someone who invades your space" as opposed to "extra terestrial"

Why would Jesus invade my private space?

Wow. Can I say unnecessary? I'm a Christian and I actually find his lyrics a little offending. Slash him up like Ninja Gaiden?!? Yes, Christ's death was horribly brutal, but a ninja?!?! That almost makes it look like a crappy movie on Spike TV, to entertain, not for the death of someone's sins.

Also, run your life like The Sims? I think this is a reference to the belief that some Christians hold (including myself) of predestination. But The Sims! God doesn't view us as people he doesn't understand, and only cares for us as far as a health and social meter goes. I mean, half the people I know that played the Sims used the rosebud cheat, built a fantastic house, and the fun ended there. It was a building game, and then a watch-the-Sims-drown-because-I-took-the-ladder-out-of-the-pool game.

Also the goal of Space Invaders was to kill the space invaders. Yes, Jesus died, but I think this is more from a point of a Christian, who wouldn't think of Jesus as a ship they need to launch a missle at. I guess I don't understand where he was going with that analogy at all, whereas, I can sort of see his other ones.

Feel free to discuss that if you think I'm wrong, but wow, it can easily go the wrong way.

That's some funny stuff...but...

"The audience artists like these generally try to target are secular music listeners who would normally pick up an Eminem album." - Spartacus

If that's what they're trying to do, it's not working. No "secular music listeners" have heard of these guys. Regardless of the intent, all it ends up being is an alternative for Christians so they don't have to listen to "bad" music.

I worked at CreationFest West in 2003 as security for the fringe stage. KJ-FiveTwo was coming back stage befor his show when he stopped to talk with me for about twenty minutes/get me a hotdog. He's a nice guy, and really down to earth. As far as using Jesus to make a shilling, he's really not about that, to him, and many who listen to his music, it's a real ministry. He drives a jank mini-van and wears dollar store costume jewlery while on stage. You don't have to like his music, or even Christianity, but he's still a very nice guy, using the gifts God gave him to get along.

Hey KJ Rocks dude.... No really his music is great and wacky at the same time.

"Regardless of the intent, all it ends up being is an alternative for Christians so they don't have to listen to "bad" music."

I see your point here. Most Christians are too conservative to explore any other types of music other than what is fed to them. Most of the music that I listen to is instrumental so that there's no "devil messages" rewiring my moldable little brains...but I bet that most conservative Christians would think it blasphemous to listen to such "noise". I'm sorry I'm pigeon-holeing an entire religion....there are some open-minded Christians out there.....somewhere. :)

i'm surprised that practicing christians like this crap. to me it seems to denigrate and cheapen the religion, and, frankly, make it something to laugh at. but i guess that's what our society does best: take serious things and make them corny and commercial; it's not religion, it's mcreligion.

for REAL christian music, check out gospel or gregorian chant.

DanWSTL:

I agree. Not that this outcome is bad, I mean religious people enjoy music just as much as non-religious, so catering to this crowd is good, but most Christian artists are more interested in reaching a secular audience and making a difference. Whether or not this happens is irrelevant. The original purpose of separation of church and state (as noted in a letter from Thomas Jefferson to a friend) was to protect religious liberties and to keep the government from interferring with church affairs. As we can see, that motive got turned on its head and is now used as a rule to keep the church from interferring with government affairs. I don't blame Jefferson for this, I blame the many manipulators of law in our current system. Likewise I don't blame the artists for not reaching a larger secular audience, there is little they can do to persuade the industry to take them more serious. A few artists and bands have been able to bridge the gap better, such as P.O.D., Chevelle, Pillar, DC Talk, and to a lesser extent, Evenescence, but yes, for the most part, religious themed music is relegated to those who are religious due to marketing, industry labels and the current American stigma on such material. Unfortunately our culture and society is more likely to purchase media that is contoversial, racey and "mature" in content (ala GTA San Andreas as well as just about any rap album under the sun) than media that promotes family, morals and accountability for one's actions.

Guslav any music that prases god is christan music not
just gospel or gregorian chant. dont get me wrong if you like that kind of music thats cool but i like rap music so why do you think that only gospel is chrristan music?

(to everyone)
most christan bands are not intristed in makeing money. just winning soals for christ, it is true that some bands that started christan have crossed over and only care about the cash but if you lissen to the words you will see tha alot of christan bands like kj-52, pod and dc talk just prases god.

(btw this song is kinda a joke, so lighten up)

-==-darkhomer-==-

KJ-52 is a pretty good artist. I like the fat he has fun rapping; Most of his songs have a playful side, but at there core have a positive message to them.

And the Eminem angle? Yeah, he knows it and actually raps about it: His "Dear Slim" and "Dear Slim Part 2" are done in a "Stan"-esque way, where he writes letters to Eminem about how God loves him and whatnot.

Awesome rapper: anyone who raps about mullets is ok in my book :p

KJ seems like he's losing it. He used to be pretty good.

Yep the song is funny, but the real laughs are coming from the posts.... Christian music is great it is a multi billion-dollar industry that makes most of their money plagiarizing other bands and dropping the Christ name every 8th word. Music is Music no secular, no Christian music, just music. 99.98% of Christian bands would have no chance selling an album if there was no such thing as Christian music had had to compete on a fair playing field with the rest of the talented musicians in the world. (I am saying crappy musicians don’t sell albums but that falls under the category of sex sales, a whole nother topic.)

I'm sorry, but donating money to mission work is not charity. It's disturbing that people feel the need to go into other cultures and nail Bibles into people's hands in some vain effort to make themselves feel better about their mythological diety of choice.

And these lyrics are just plain cheesy. He should call himself MC Cracka, to go with all that cheese he's dishing out.

Theres a hardcore band out there(who is also considered as 'nintendo-core') called HORSE the band and some of there songs make reference to some nintendo characters AND the infamous Powerglove: during the begining and ending of the song Cutsman you can hear the kids from The Wizard during the scene where that kid with the Powerglove is in.
http://horsetheband.com/

ugh...Religion...what a joke...

First, why do so many people seem to think writing music about Jesus somehow degrades the legitimacy of the faith. Since when does artistic expression (even for a profit) about something you believe in cheapen your beliefs? Granted the majority of Christian bands out there probably shouldn't be recording music, but I could say the same thing about the music industry as a whole. There's always going to be mediocrity, without it we wouldn't know what was good. :)

Second #27: Wow that comment was a little harsh don't you think? You do realize that mission work is not about nailing Bibles into peoples hands. More than anything it's about helping the poor, caring for the sick, and feeding the hungry. Yes, ultimately most missionaries hope to lead those they're helping to their faith, but to categorize it like that is to devalue the countless hours millions of people spend every year trying to help those less fortunate.

I like video games!

ZeroCorpse:

I think you might want to ask the people who have been aided my misionaries how they feel before you cast judgement and speak on their behalf. It must be tough for you to sleep at night in your climate controlled room, all nestled in your name brand bed with freshly washed sheets while you think of all the less fortunate bastards out there being fooled into thinking that someone cares about them enough to give them food, water and clothing for free. You lay awake all night wishing you could be there to tell the starving people of this world the catch is the evil missionaries want to save their soul as well as their body. I know, it's tough to compare those Bible thumper's minute deeds with your own, but I'm sure you'll soon figure out a way to end the problems of world hunger and poverty and put those self-seeking Christians out of commission.

Here's to hypocrisy and spoiled American youth...

Some would say the song "Video Games" is a disgrace to Christian music. Me? I think it's a clever mix of popular themes (video games), old-school nostalgia (arcade classics), musical genres (Eminem-style rap), and religious expression (Christian theology).

Much the same way that The Chronicles of Narnia were a way for C.S. Lewis to provide an appealing allegory for the Christ story to those unaffected by Scripture, I see no reason why the artist here cannot reflect on his own experiences growing up in the video-game generation as a way of relating to fellow Christians/game-players (or attempting to speak to nonbelievers in some way).

Gospel music has had a strong influence on R&B, soul, country, and rock & roll, and to say that the vast majority of Christian bands would have no chance of selling an album in a secular market is ludicrous considering the number of crossover artists who have found success with mainstream audiences in recent years, whether you're talking about Switchfoot, Relient K, or even Amy Grant and Stacie Orrico. (And what does that say about all those who have not even attempted to "cross over"?) Surely all the singers, religious or secular, who built their vocal foundations in church have something good to say about their musical backgrounds, if not their religious upbringings.

But here's one final note for Christian-music traditionalists to consider: even the piano/organ was considered an "evil" instrument many centuries ago (without considering the bad rep drums and the guitar received later on, and still have, in some parts, to this very day). If God is supposed to be the creator of music -- and the giver of all good things -- should any style of music be considered bad in and of itself, without consideration for the lyrics used and/or the original artist's intent? Songs (like instruments) should be judged for their messages and overall musical merits, not for their predetermined labels and limiting consumer categories.

Incidentally, communicating in a way that your audience understands would seem to be the hallmark of good evangelism (whether through parables, the latest genres in music, or a relatively new entertainment medium), so it might be a good idea to consider some musical styles besides gospel or Gregorian chant if you intend to reach the world and act these days as "salt and light."

At any rate, please excuse the length, as I just had something that needed saying. =)

Cool i like KJ 52! :>

@33: THANK YOU! You deserve a cookie.

@30 and 21: And people say Christians are closed-minded?

Now that that's done,

"I will praise You, O Lord my God, with all my heart, And I will glorify Your name forevermore." -- Psalm 86:12

Forevermore. Like, even while rapping.

"Sing praise to the Lord, You saints of His, And give thanks at the remembrance of His holy name." -- Psalm 30:4

KJ's singing, right? He's praising the Lord, right?

"I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." -- 1 Corinthians 9:22

I think that's what KJ's doing here. He's reaching people where they're at.

And I think he's doing so with humor. Christianity does not mean being constantly serious. We are to joyful that we've been saved!

I don't know much about KJ but back in the day I used to listen to Gospel Gangstaz. They had some hardcore lyrics. Like "I binds 'em(demons) up 'n then I Bible whip 'em."

Although DG (7 and 10) has been thoroughly refuted, I'll just add one more. Artists like the Gospel Gangstaz and KJ provide an avenue for gang members to leave a life of crime. Two of the rappers in GG were former enemies, blood and crip in LA. Thousands of lives were changed for the better due to their ministry. If that's "using Jesus as a muse to sell records", I wish more people would do it.

I had no idea there were so many religious folks on Joystiq...huh....ok....

Anyway, 'Spartacus'...
It's more than a little odd that you go by that particular name while singing the praises of missionary work/etc. The real Spartacus (as you hopefully would know) was a slave that led a rebellion against the Roman empire and was a genuine threat to the establishment. He led an army 90,000 strong but was ultimately CRUCIFIED naked along with 6,000 others along the 'via appia'. This was all ~70 years before Jesus was even born, let alone influential. One could argue that Jesus was inspired by Spartacus but decided (with the benefit of hindsight) that passive resistance was a better approach in light of recent events. The duo likely shared some of the same feelings on slavery and injustice but had different ways of acting on it.

It just makes me wonder what the world would have been like today if Spartacus had invoked divinity and declared himself some sort of deity..... Would Christianity be seen as an 'also-ran'?

(of course none of this will make sense if you truly believe that Jesus was a supernatural being)

Oh, and "Spartacus"....

How does it feel to belong to a religion that started out as a minority rebellion trying to topple the Roman Empire only to have it BECOME (the equivalent of) the Roman Empire...and ironically enough the official religion of (what was) Rome?

Funny how the tables turned, eh?

27 aka spoo.

I think if you look really look into it, a lot of bands that are Christians aren't trying to get into the "Christian music industry." It's not that they don't want to compete on a level playing field, it's that they're not allowed to by the rest of the world due to their lyrical content and/or beliefs.

Do you know of any other musical "category/genre" where regardless of the style of music, it's classified by the personal beliefs of the artists rather than the style of the music outside of Christian music?

I have still yet to find a Muslin, Atheist, Islamic, Kabbalah, Buddhist, or other religious/belive category in Best Buy besides Christian, yet there are a lot of artists that fall under those categories, but their music isn't labeled as such.

Why are Christians treated differently?

Haha, good stuff. KJ-52 is freaking awesome.

portorikan-
(Long rant warning)
I know quite a bit about the Christian music market of the past. I did a lot of research on it in the late 90's. The Christian market is a joke. It is marketed the same way "secular" (I hate that word) music is marketed. The difference is replace sex sales records to Christ sales records. Just because they claim God is on their side doesn't mean he is. It is all about the brain washing process that every corporation uses. You shouldn't listen to evil music listen to Jesus music. Pay us your $19 per CD instead of the $13 a CD for evil music.

Yes some Christian bands of the past have been good musicians and have had some crossover success but don't let this fool you. The reason they have had crossover success because; A) A record label (secular) saw that they had marketability and could make a quick buck by signing them. B) The Christian label saw that they finally found a band that they could market on a broader scale and sent singles the radio stations. C) They had the perfect song for the place and time.

Take into account there is always an exception to everything. The music industry is pure evil on both sides (secular and Christian.)

To get back on your topic portorikan, Christian bands are on the same playing field as every other band they just don’t want you to believe they are. The world sees a good song for what it is a good song. Most could careless what the message is. But “nonbelievers” don’t want a praise song if they have different believes then Christians. The same as Christians don’t want to listen to a song that doesn’t spout the word Christ 30+ times a song.

chudgoo:

I will respond to your comments in order.

1. I'm sure EVERYONE here on joystiq picks a handle that accurately depicts their character in every sense. I use "Spartacus" for a couple reasons: Number one, my name is Joshua, which if you know your Biblical history half as well as your Roman, you would know he was a strong military leader that led a ragtag little army against impossible odds though Eastern Mesopotamia to victory, starting with the famous battle of Jericho. In this aspect, he has a little in common with Spartacus. The other reason I use that handle is because of the movie "That Thing You Do" as the drummer calls himself that and I am also a drummer. So, now that we have to explain and defend our callsigns, what in the world is "chudgoo"?

2. So, chudgoo, how does it feel to belong to a government that started out as a minority rebellion trying to topple the King of England's reign only to BECOME (the equivalent of) another oppressive government? And ironically enough, the religion they based their new government on has become the very one it tries to oppress today. Funny how the tables turned, eh?...

I think if the founding fathers of this nation saw where it was right now, they'd be very displeased. Likewise, if the founding fathers of the Christian church saw where it was today, they would be very displeased as well. Jesus (which is the Greek form of the Hebrew Joshua since we're discussing nomenclatures, both of which mean YHWH Moshia: "The Lord Saves") never meant for a corporate church higharchy. If you read the New Testament you'd quickly find that the Roman Catholic Church was not ordained by or even set up by Jesus or any of His desciples. The Roman government adopted and legitimized the religion by making it the official Roman faith. They then enforced it legally and "spiritually" by setting up a "Christian" government. It was done for far more political reasons than spiritual. Has the church made mistakes? Yes. Should the legitimacy of the Christ be questioned due to the imperfection of His followers? Absolutely not. That's the whole premise of the Bible, man is imperfect and is susceptible to sin and corrpution, which is why Jesus came in the first place. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. As Christians we don't preach that we are perfect or better than anyone else, we don't ask you to look at our example, we ask you to look at His.

spoo:

You might want to do your research again. Heck, walk into Best Buy. Christian CD's are the same price as any other. Your personal opinion of the industry you must remember is just that- your opinion. If by "evil" you mean the industry wants to make money, then yes. But it's prety hard to survive in this world without any finances. Even in the New Testament, the apostles had to be supported in their ministry.

"1. I'm sure EVERYONE here on joystiq picks a handle that accurately depicts their character in every sense. I use "Spartacus" for a couple reasons: Number one, my name is Joshua, which if you know your Biblical history half as well as your Roman, you would know he was a strong military leader that led a ragtag little army against impossible odds though Eastern Mesopotamia to victory, starting with the famous battle of Jericho. In this aspect, he has a little in common with Spartacus. The other reason I use that handle is because of the movie "That Thing You Do" as the drummer calls himself that and I am also a drummer. So, now that we have to explain and defend our callsigns, what in the world is "chudgoo"?"

Chudgoo is a guy who posts on slashdot http://slashdot.org/~chudgoo


"2. So, chudgoo, how does it feel to belong to a government that started out as a minority rebellion trying to topple the King of England's reign only to BECOME (the equivalent of) another oppressive government?"
How is America "oppressive"? By freeing other nations?

"And ironically enough, the religion they based their new government on has become the very one it tries to oppress today. Funny how the tables turned, eh?..."
The beliefs they based their government on was nature and Nature's God, it was a mixture of deism and christianity.

"I think if the founding fathers of this nation saw where it was right now, they'd be very displeased. Likewise, if the founding fathers of the Christian church saw where it was today, they would be very displeased as well. Jesus (which is the Greek form of the Hebrew Joshua since we're discussing nomenclatures, both of which mean YHWH Moshia: "The Lord Saves") never meant for a corporate church higharchy."
Have you read the Bible, Jesus doesn't mention a lot about the way the church is suppose to be organized, the Bible does give us what a Bishop should do, and that we have Pastors, Teachers, Prophets, Apostles, and Preachers. Besides, our "Founding Fathers" were predominantly either Christian or Deist.

"If you read the New Testament you'd quickly find that the Roman Catholic Church was not ordained by or even set up by Jesus or any of His desciples."
True, true, although the Catholics will invoke the "rock clause" about how Peter is the first pope, but that is a misinterpretation of scripture.

"The Roman government adopted and legitimized the religion by making it the official Roman faith. They then enforced it legally and "spiritually" by setting up a "Christian" government. It was done for far more political reasons than spiritual. Has the church made mistakes? Yes. Should the legitimacy of the Christ be questioned due to the imperfection of His followers? Absolutely not. That's the whole premise of the Bible, man is imperfect and is susceptible to sin and corrpution, which is why Jesus came in the first place. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. As Christians we don't preach that we are perfect or better than anyone else, we don't ask you to look at our example, we ask you to look at His."
Well said

Jeremy:

Thanks for the link for chudgoo, however due to the nature of his question on nomenclature, I was curious what his handle MEANT, not who he was.

When I call our American government "oppressive" I don't mean in a purely tyranical way. However, if you studied American government in college it wasn't hard to see the vast differences in government philosophy then and now. The founders of our nation set up a framework that would limit the federal government in power, giving the majority of that power to the people and the State governments. The federal government was there for punishment of crime and protection of the people durring war time ONLY. The federal government wasn't even supposed to be able to have a standing army due to the fact that they could use it to strong arm the States. As you can see, this philosophy has been totally abondoned and the Federal government is by far the most powerful force not only in our nation, but in the world. This is exactly what the founding fathers were trying to prevent. Why? Because power corrupts. Keeping it spread out among the State governments was safe, centralized federal power is a recipe for disaster. This notion is further validated by Plato's "Republic" in which he describes the forms of government. There he shows true Democracy as the next step toward Communism. In fact, America was founded with a hybrid government, but was based more on a Republic than on Democracy. Now, there is hardly anything in which the Federal government is NOT in control of. While this may seem totally benign to the average citizen, those who know their history and have studied government systems know better. Our founding fathers were such men. Benjamin Franklin, when addressing the dangers of centralized power said this; "Those who give up Liberty for Security, shall enjoy neither Liberty or Security." The Federal government also controls our currency. This is totally unconstitutional and spells disaster as well. Mayer Amschel said, "Permit me to issue and control a nation's money, and I care not who makes its laws." Vladimir Lenin said, "The surest way to destroy a nation is to debauch its currency." Louis T. McFadden, a murdered ex-Chairman of the House of Committee on Banking and Currency said, "Every effort has been made by the Federal Reserve Board to conceal its powers, but the truth is... the Federal Reserve System has usurped the government. It controls everything here (Congress) and it controls all our foreign relations. It makes and breaks governments at will."

So, with centralized power and control over every aspect of an American citizen's daily life, yes, I call that oppressive. Why most don't see it that way is because we GAVE that power to them rather than them TAKING it. Foolishness on our parts...

Here is a light hearted, but fairly accurate example of government systems (Taken from a booklet published by Dr. Kent Hovind):

BIBLICAL CAPITALISM: You have two cows. You take care of them and sell the extra milk if you want to.

FEUDALISM: Your lord lends you two cows. He takes most of the milk and leaves you some.

PURE SOCIALISM: You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them into a barn with everyone else's cows. You have to take care of all the cows. The government gives you as much milk as you need.

BUREAUCRATIC SOCIALISM: You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them into a barn with everyone else's cows. They are cared for by ex-chicken farmers. You have to take care of the chickens the government took from the chicken farmers. The government gives you as much milk and eggs as the regulations say you need.

FASCISM: You have two cows. The government takes them both, hires you to take care of them and sells you the milk.

PURE COMMUNISM: You ahve two cows. Your neighbors help you take care of them and you all share the milk.

RUSSIAN COMMUNISM: You ahve two cows. You have to take care of them, but the government takes all the milk.

CAMBODIAN COMMUNISM: You have two cows. The government takes them both and shoots you.

DICTATORSHIP: You have two cows. The government takes them both and drafts you.

PURE DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. Your neighbors decide who gets the milk.

REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. Your neighbors vote for someone to tell you who gets the milk.

AMERICAN DEMOCRACY: The government promises to give you two cows if you vote for it. After the election, the President is impeached for speculating in cow futures. The press dubs the affair "Cowgate."

BRITISH DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. You feed them sheep brains and they go mad. The government doesn't do anything.

BUREAUCRACY: You have two cows. At first the government regulates what you can feed them and when you can milk them. Then it pays you not to milk them. Then it takes both, shoots one, milks the other and pours the milk down the drain. Then it requires you to fill out forms accounting for the missing cows.

ENVIRONMENTALISM: You have two cows. The government bans you from milking or killing them.

PURE ANARCHY: You have two cows. Your neighbors riot and kill you for trying to sell the milk.

LIBERTARIAN/ANARCHO-CAPITALISM: You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.

CLINTONOMICS: You have two cows. The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.

______________

I think we pretty much agree on the rest Jeremy. Take care.

Joshua...
I am impressed by the depth of your understanding of your faith (something almost unheard of in your constituents)....


As for the whiplash on the "belonging to xxx" comment...
The point I was trying to make is that the small dog has become Cujo and I doubt that Jesus would like that very much. (I'm afraid I'm stepping into a dangerous area; predicting what Jesus would have wanted (like Pat Robinson) is never wise) The original goal for christianity (IMO) was to popularize a less animalistic set of values. While true equality is still a pipedream, I do think that the basic principles were good for the world. (no murder/lying/etc) But then again these thing can be taught and enforced by lawmakers/law enforcment. Despite the fact that these values are almost hardcoded into us from birth they are widely ignored (even by the faithful) on a daily basis. You say Satan, I say primitive and suppressible) instincts/urges given flight by free will. The current state of christianity in the US (dare I say the world) is more along the lines of a political party. This is the sort of thing that has given rise to the 'new english empire' of which I hold no allegiances to. Unfortunately the US political arena has been honed to take advantage of the christian mind. Abortion, homosexuality, and a vague concept of "patriotism" clouded over the REAL issues that face this nation. Is religion partly/mostly responsible for the corruption of our system? I believe it is. Sorry...
As a non-believer I see people wave your flag while stabbing you in the back...the kicker is that you VOTED for them because they claimed to belong to the same club as you.

I wish people could understand that peaceful values and progess can go hand in hand without the need for unfounded belief in the supernatual. The word 'secular' needs to lose its stigma as it is an incredibly empowering concept.

What this has to do with videogames...I have no idea....
What my point was (towards the end there)...I have no idea.....

The one thing I do know is that I do not wish to see Joystiq post stories of this nature anymore. The connection to videogames was tenuous at best. How about a review of 'Preachers In The Hood" being posted to a hiphop site? (real group, btw) This sort of thing only incites mini-wars that serve no one. (just take a tally of how many comments dealt with the real subject matter)....
That said, I hereby apologize to everyone that had to sift through the flames. My comments (and many others) had no new substance and only took away from (an admittedly fringe) story.
If anyone would like to carry on this thread you can email me directly.



Joystiq editors : The readers suffer enough with the console fanboy flamewars and wont benefit from at all from religious ones. I will however give you credit for making dedicated 'fanbot' sites to sort of split up the troublemakers even as the joystick audience moaned about the end of one-stop-blogging. Since we have no way to do user-level moderation to help sort it all out, I'd really appreciate it if religion were to be left off the main page. There are plenty of other forums for that.

And for those that care, (I'm looking at you Jeremy) here are other (completely irrelevant) places I regular and sometimes post idiotic comments....slashdot, joystiq, engadget, fark, fazed, various usenet groups, and of course my own worthless site www.chudvault.com
And for whatever it's worth, I liked the movie CHUD and had an inside joke about the grease vats you find behind McDonalds and the like and coined 'chudgoo' to describe the contents of those waste grease mini-dumpsters. Mystery solved.
Anyway, I'm sorry for carrying on like this and will submit this without review of contents....so please forgive the scatterbrained nature of the statements.

chudgoo:

Well I happen to have a strong interest in showing that Christianity/Judaism is NOT unfounded, specifically by using the sciences. I would be more than interested in carrying on a private email conversation, however you didn't list it. I followed the link to your website, but didn't find it there either... kstate_ham@hotmail.com is where you can find me, drop me a few opinions/arguments on exactly what you mean by "unfounded" as I'm curious. I assure you I don't offend easily and am easy to debate with as long as you keep it civil. Hope to hear from you soon, take care and God bless.

Wow. Another example as to how God™ has become a corporate icon. Nice to know that the catholic pardoners of old are still alive and well, and will to sell you salvation for the special one-time offer of three easy payments of $19.95.

@spartacus...just to be a bit pedantic...have you ever heard of the jefferson bible? our most important founding father (author of the declaration of independence and the main philosopher responsible for our constitution, though not its author) believed in christianity in a purely philosophical manner, and rejected creationism, miracles, and even the divinity of jesus. his views on god were purely deistic, in that he believed in a divine power unfathomed by human beings, and he saw organized religion negatively. i'm sure if he WERE alive today, he would find more fault with the christian right in this country than he would with those who strive to uphold our CONSTITUTIONALLY GUARANTEED separation of church and state.

some choice quotations from him:

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan [Muslim], the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825