17 minutes? That's, like, 127.5 rides on a bucking bronco, if you can last the full 8 seconds. Man, that's a lot of eternities.

Ugh. That's all. Ugh.

I would hardly call 2 or 3 save points per dungeon skimping. That seems to be about the normal amount.

Though I far prefer games where you can save anywhere.

Final Fantasy died a few years ago as far as I'm concerned, though.

Honestly i dont think any FMV should be allowed to be skipped unless it is before a title screen. You bought the content, watch the video, if you dont want to skip it you'll try harder in the game.

I am also perfectly fine with the limit of save points in dungeons. Cmon people, were talking about an rpg here. These things are hours long, if you have a child to take care of you better just hit the pause button and turn off the tv and return to it later.

has any mention be made of total game play time? requiring FMV scenes sounds time 'filler' to me.

Crap... it's gonna be another FF7...

maybe square hates people?

so playing this game will be interactive like watching a movie. except you can fast forward a movie. so my dvd player has more functionality.

Grrr.

You know, there are things about the FF series that are "traditions"; some of these traditions are good, and should never be altered, and other traditions are bad and should have been tossed years ago. The whole save point thing has been a problem with this series for years, and it seems like Square is sticking to this broken system simply to keep tradition going rather than for any real logical reason. It's no secret that FF games are generally fairly easy as long as you put the time in leveling up, but the solution to that isn't to skimp on save points... the solution is making it easier to save but also more challenging to win battles. That would be a lot more satisfying.

I'm sort of ambivalent about the cut-scene thing. Honestly, I think people who complain about cut-scenes in Final Fantasy games really need to just get a life - if you're buying a Final Fantasy game at this point *not* expecting long cut scenes, then your expectations are just off to begin with. There are a myriad of other RPG options out there for you if you're not into cut-scenes; FF has become a series people buy specifically *for* its cinematic elements. If you don't like it, get over it and buy something else.

But it does seem odd to make it so you *can't* skip the cut-scenes. I do seem to recall that in past FF's, some scenes could be skipped and others couldn't be. Personally, I find it very annoying to mistakenly skip a cut-scene in a game that turns out to be a major turning point in the story, and then I can't go back and view it again. That's probably the rationale for not allowing you to skip... but still, I mean make it some weird button combo that you need to press, make it hard... but it'd be nice to have the option.

Just pause the game and leave the system on, that's what my friend does anyways :P

Another reason RPG's are a waste of time and resources. If I wanted to see a movie, I'd buy a ticket. I want to PLAY a game. I don't mind cut scenes, it's just that there's not a need to go overboard.

I suppose if it enhances the story, the long FMV is fine. But having less saves spots is going to effect my gameplay. A game like Dragon Quest VIII where you can zoom to a church and save your game works better for me. I don't usually sit down and play for 10 hours at a time. I'm already not impressed with the new fighting system. This isn't helping to convince me to buy all. I remember FFX, I thought I spent a long time walking around to find a save sphere in that game, and it frustrated me to a point where it became unenjoyable. SquareEnix needs pull their head out of their ass and Recreate the Final Fantasy series into something that we will want to play.

I have no problem with unskippable cutscenes, the first time through. Some games actually do this. If I save, go through a couple dungeon levels, encounter a boss, watch his 15 minute cutscene, fight him and die, when I load my save and get to the boss again, I should be able to skip it. I've already seen it. I doubt anyone who buys a FF game wants to not watch the cutscenes at all. I think they (and I) have a problem with having to always watch them, over and over again, even when you've already seen them.

As for save points, the save point in the world should have died years ago. Spacing out save points in the world is an archaic and artificial limitation. It doesn't make your game harder, it makes it less user friendly. If you could save anywhere, then to balance the game they would have to rely solely on balancing combat. Shudder to think!

I remember a time when Final Fantsy games were more 'game' than 'interactive movie'.

I honestly have not played a GOOD Final Fantasy game since Final Fantasy III(VI) for the SNES. And yes, I have played every Final Fantasy except for the Japanese III and V.

You shouldn't be able to skip sections or fast forward in DVD's either. I mean....you knowingly bought that movie. Isn't that what you expected? I F'ing hate Japanese RPG's. I like to play video games...not watch them

When I played FF7, it was revelatory. I had no idea that console RPGs could be that good.

Then I went back and started to play real RPGs like Fallout and KOTOR, and remembered why I eschewed console "RPGs" in the first place. If I want to watch movies, I don't want to have to push the "play" button on the remote control every few seconds just to make it go. If I'm playing a game, give me choices so that it doesn't feel like I'm watching a movie.

I just hope the game is good. IX was horrible, and X-2 was a bit off the wall. Maybe every other one will be a good one now? I don't count XI.

FMVs are only annoying if you have to watch the same one multiple times in the process of moving on. I think that the first view (for a saved game) should be forced, and any subsequent views should be optional.

Well remember the save points have a duel purpose. You can also use tents there, a cheap item to almost max out your HP and MP. And that actually does add a strategic level of difficulty, not being able to easily refill for a while since Ethers are generally expensive, and you have to carry around a LOT of potions to heal everyone.

they really ought to make it "Tent Points" or whatever and let you save anywhere.

Actually, I feel that less save points does make the game harder.

I tend to be an item and money miser when I play the FF type games. So when I see a save point right before a boss, I save, dink around with the boss to see his weaknesses, then I just die and start again.

I don't "waste" items if I get injured, I just die and try again, using a different strategy.

Now if there wasn't a save point there i would be more willing to bust out the powerful spells and items just so I wouldn't have to go through the entier dungeon again.

I kind of like the idea (YMMV)

I used to love the Final Fantasy franchise. Where has it been for me in the past few years? FFX-2, FFXI - both complete garbage if you're looking for another final fantasy. And this? FFXII? Real-time can suck my retro **** because I dont want any of it. Where'd the actual Sqauresoft employees go? Did they die or something?

FINAL FANTASY SUCKS.

I can't wait for it... It's the first time I've looked forward to a Final Fantasy since Final Fantasy9 (the last good one)

all you haters can go hate.

Tim, coincidentally, Final Fantasy Sucks is the working title of the gimmick Revolution version of Final Fantasy, that you have to buy controller add-ons to play. Requires eight players.

Chioce is ALWAYS better. I don't understand why some game designers don't seem to understand that. If I don't want to watch a 15 minute FMV, then dammit, give me the ability to go past it, especially if I've seen it already...

As for save points, you should have the ability to save anywhere and the goddamn COMBAT should be balanced so that it is fair yet challenging..Using less saves is the lamest way of making a game harder...

Having little save points only adds artificial extra difficulty; it's not like I ever lose at final fantasy; I rarely do (and I'm pissed off if it was a while since I last saved). This will only help to annoy gamers more, since we don't have the time to play 2 hours each time, specially having to watch thousands of cut-scenes over and over again in case of hard battles. I know I am known for being an FMV-whore, but after I've seen them once, it is pointless to watch them again. "To Make him/her try harder lol" that's ridiculous, if they wanted to make us try harder, then they should add a lot more content, harder battles (specially the boss battles), new types of anything instead of the same phoenix-elixir-potion-bullshit with fire-bolt-ice-holy-water-earth-time/space types. Hell, finishing a Final Fantasy itself is an accomplishment, given the long hours you have to spend to fully complete the game with every side-quest and every inch of the game explored and viewed with extreme detail.

I bet this decission making process (or lack thereof) will influence negatively on the grades the press will give this game. Worthless.

All I can say is that this is bad news for anyone who was hoping to get some good speedruns in.

You can tape it, but I'm not watching it...

#4, I think your logic is flawed. I bought the content, it is not my content. If I want to rob myself of the full story, why shouldnt I be able to. The comparison to DVDs is very apt. You could say the same thing about cds. I always watch the cutscenes in games the first time through, but think about a particularly hard boss fight. You might have to sit through the same cut scene a bunch of times. That is very aggrevating. Expecially if the cut scene is 17 minutes long.

If there's anything I hate in all this world. It's save points.

I'm looking forward to it. The storyline looks interesting and I look forward to finding out what the characters are like, and their stories, and the motivation behind everything. I always watch the FMV parts because that was kinda the point of the game: the story.

For those of you who don't enjoy the storyline, go back to your online multiplayer, mindless shooters, and shallow action titles. I'm tired of people who think they are obligated to play these games even though they are a genre they do not like.

As far as the save points go, it's only annoying most of the time because of random battles in the past. You spend forever hacking your way to some dead end, and have to spend another eternity to hack your way back to save. It just takes time. While it is a bit annoying because you have to be somewhere, it's worth it to me. It's a part of the experience. Like a long line at the theater for a movie.

Maybe the extra space on the PS3's Blu-Ray disc will be used to give us longer cut scenes in games. That's what gamers want, right? Get ready for FFXIII, featuring a 2-hour introductory feature film. (Hopefully it'll be better than the Final Fantasy movie.)

Don't hold your breath, Dirk Dorkelson. I'm not holding mine.

wasn't FFIV's opening scene 17-odd minutes long? FFVI's ending a half-hour something?

i remember it not being skippable either.

FFVII truly wasn't the first eith long-arsed cut-scenes.

hell, something like the Cid fight in VI would have probably been a 45-second cut-scene vs a 4 minute long battle.

it seems clear to me that Final Fantasy always wanted cutscenes like we have today and were only prohibited by technology.

besides, it's still 5 or so hours between MAJOR cutscenes in any of the games. that's a far cry from an interactive movie.

If we can't skip cut scenes, then how 'bout a pause function?

Y'know, just like EVERY OTHER ELECTRONIC MEDIUM IN EXISTENCE.

And, bookmarks; I like those. I don't have to re-read an entire chapter of a book if I don't want to, because I don't have to wait for a save point.

5 hours assuming you don't end up watching them again, and assuming the game doesn't have Xenosaga in the title.

The pre-rendered, non-interactive cutscene is a very lazy way to tell a story. The Final Fantasy series is turning into a game where the story only develops when you're not doing anything but watching. The only interaction in these faux-RPGs comes in the form of battles, mini-games, and buying items. Moving to the CD format was probably the worst thing to ever happen to the Final Fantasy series. It gave Square an excuse to cut back on actual story development and throw in cutscenes.

FFX for instance can barely even be classified as an RPG. There was no story development outside the cutscenes in any form. This creates a problem of a "jerky" story development. You get some story development, then nothing happens for a while unitl the next cutscene point shows up.

The only options to combat this are to either overload your game with cutscenes, ala Xenosaga, to keep the flow constant (though it never can remove the jerky development, just make the breaks shorter) or to do like the Suikoden series and never have a cutscene beyond the opening cinematic (and possibly closing one as well) and maybe find a way to develop the plot without having to resort to breaking it up between spirts of random combat.

Cutscenes are the bane of the RPG. They keep them from ever developing a smoothly transitioning story and will always be heavily inferior to RPGs that lack them entirely.

Cut Scenes are like all you can eat salad and bread sticks at the Olive Garden...fine and tasty, but mostly there to sill you up so you do not notice the small portion of the actual meal.

I used to sit and watch every minute of cut-scenes in games, but that is when I was young and had the time...nowadays, I work most of the time, and busy around the house most of the spare time, so gaming is short on my list. I may get 5-10 hours a week, and I do not want to spend most of it watching a game...I want to play the game. Elder Legend series IMHO is the best RPG series ever made, and they have very little cut-scenes...you are not forced into any linear story line, so no need for extensive cut-scenes. That is why I will be getting Oblivion and not getting FFXII.

This is called punishing the player, plain and simple, no other way to describe it, and it's ineccusable, POOR game design. There is no excuse in today's world why any of this should go down. All scenes should be skippable, and saves should be anywhere (even if you have to revert back to the last position, still save the data, like every Zelda game does beautifully).

Seriously, this should be boycotted/skipped/ignored/flamed/whatever. I for one will not even think of touching products that do this to the gamers. Nothing anyone says can sway that either, it's lazy game design and the world knows it.

"Cutscenes are the bane of the RPG. They keep them from ever developing a smoothly transitioning story and will always be heavily inferior to RPGs that lack them entirely."

I don't mean to be rude, but who are you trying to kid besides yourself? Go play Everquest.

Besides the first, all FF games have had cutscenes. Whether or not they were in MPEG format makes no difference.

"This is called punishing the player, plain and simple, no other way to describe it, and it's ineccusable, POOR game design...

Seriously, this should be boycotted/skipped/ignored/flamed/whatever. I for one will not even think of touching products that do this to the gamers."

Would you yell "fire!" in a crowded theatre if you smelled burnt popcorn? It certainly sounds like it.

That post was more over the top than Sir Edmund Hillary. Not that you or anyone else here knows what that even means.

Way to remain calm and sensible, dude.

I loved the movie that was the cutscenes of FFX, but there are times that the dialog is really just too cheeselike and should be skipped at all costs. I don't like save points, but I hate random battles that you have to run around for hours (or days) just to level up in order to face a bad guy. How is that different than a side scrolling shooting game like Ninja Scroll where you run around and make sure you get power ups so the boss battle is manageable? Make the defining characteristic of winning be some skill that you have obtained not persaverance by killing millions of demon crazed chocobos. If they do this then it wouldn't be so far of a stretch to just let a person save wherever they want.

"However, any addition to the difficulty this sparse save philosophy will bring is merely artificial and headache-inducing "

How true that is. This is exactly why I hated Ninja Gaiden on Xbox. People talked about the game being so hard. It wasn't HARD, it was TIRESOME.

Good im glad they are making it challenging. And I dont mind Cut Scenes either. After FFX which I enjoyed but I hardly felt it was a challenge.

Im looking forward to FFXII and have high hopes that Square wont let me down :D.

This is TERRIBLE. Final Fantasy was unfriendly enough. This isn't going to help their business, even if every reviewer thinks it's the greatest game since pong - like every other game reviewed. Would Madden remove saves between games in a season? Would Gran Turismo remove saves between races? Wouldn't that make it harder? How is harder better?

Seriously, if they want to make it harder, just make you weaker to start out, like DQ used to do. Make it so you need 1,000 battles to level up. That's hard, isn't it? I just don't get it.

FUN GAMES are not harder games. And Final Fantasy is already too repetitive. All these games are EASY if you just level up a zillion times before entering a dungeon. What about working on more open-ended storylines? What happened to FF3/6 where you could do ANYTHING after the halfway point? Choice is fun. Let people skip FMVs after the first time - surely they can figure this technology out.

The Japanese are getting seriously stuck in their ways, stupid stubborn and positively old-fashioned in an industry that's only like 20 yrs. old. Amazing.

Here's my suggestion: fun. Try fun! I actually like the light-hearted FFIX, because it didn't take itself too seriously. And I think hardcore FF fans are ridiculous, because they go on about the writing, and it's still cheesy compared to even mediocre movies. FFX showed a lot of improvement, FFVII wasn't bad, FFVI was soap opera level. But how seriously can you take yourself when you're saving the world, over and over and over again. The series is tapped out. FFX-2 proved it. No Tactics on PS2 proved it. FFXI proved it. They are out of stories to tell, and out of fresh ideas for gameplay.

I hate this decision. Just cut your casual fans off at the kneecaps, and make sure you never grow your fan base. Why try to compromise between casual fans and hardcore? Why not difficulty levels in an RPG? Why not options? Why not fresh voices? Why not some other ideas?

What people don't realize is that pretty much every single Final Fantasy has been changed since FFVII (usually to make it easier) when it is localized for America. They're always re-released in japan as the "international" version. I mean come on, you don't think they're going to change the save thing when it localizes? Hell, if not, then add something to make up for it.

be realistic people!

oh man, i was really looking forward to it and i already preordered my copy online. i've been playing all the other ones in preperation but I also have homework. Sometimes, my parents would leave the house and i'd just have enough time to get from one save point to another in FFX before they came back but now...i don't know what i'm going to do! [tear]

I read the whole post thinking it was FFXI and was about to comment... 360 on the brain...

Im guessing FFXII is NOT a MMO, so those are valid points. ESPECIALLY the cutscene one. The first time, I could handle it. But if you've viewed it already, you should be able to skip a cinematic...

I hate to say it, but FFXII is the first final fantasy I've played since... FFIII on the SNES. Never really liked Sony consoles, especially their controllers. Their games, though... I almost bought a PS2 just to play FF games (as well as others, such as Megaman Legends 2, which was conveniently NOT ported to N64 the way the first one was... grrr).

Hmm.. I've many mixed reactions. Whilst I am a huge loyal fan of the Final Fantasy series, too many cutscenes is just not good Square-Enix. My friend who said he's played Dirge of Cerberus said there were too many cutscenes. I think... Square should go back to what cutscenes were used for in Final Fantasy PSOne games, and that was to show off an event that simply couldn't be done on the sytstem nicely. Imagine Sapphire Weapon attacking Junon using those models. It just doesn't work.

But now, it's gone to Square's head. I played FFX recently, and I hated how it played. It was far too linear, and those dialogue scenes really annoyed me.

Buuuut... I'll buy this game anyway. Sad isn't it?

Maybe after playing Tales of Symphonia I'm a bit spoiled, but I think it pulled off the formula almost flawlessly.

The cutscenes were usually short and straight to the point. It also didn't use pre-rendered scenes, so you had to advance the dialouge- which was also spoken- manually. Of course if you didn't want to hear it, you could skip it. Which is nice if you need to talk to someone or use the phone or something. There were maybe two cutscences you couldn't advance quickly- the end of disc 1 and the end of the game. But since those were kickass anime cutscenes, I can't see why you would WANT to.

I´m married and have a life outside of playing games. I already find it hard to find time for games, if they require to play long periods of time at each session. I just can´t blow an afternoon for playing like I used to while I was still living with my parents. Limited saving is one of the things why I prefer PC RPGs to console RPGs. I was hoping that this completely artificial way of adding "challenge" (more like frustration) would eventually be abandoned as bad game design, but I guess not. I used to be enthusiastic about this game, but now I´m just not sure if I´ll ever even get to play it.

Mercatfat:

I guess you could call this a last straw sort of deal. They've been pushing the stupid cutscenes forever, but now announcing that you won't be able to skip them, is just plain rediculous.

What purpose does it serve to have cut scenes which you cannot skip? None. Anyone that wants to watch them can watch them, anyone that wants to skip them should be able to. Saves points used to be an issue, but on todays systems there is absolutely no technical reason why you could not institute a "Save anywhere" system. Both are marks of lazy, punitive, poor game design, there is no other way to describe it.

And assuming I have no idea who Edmund Hillary? Where did that even come from, seriously? Nothing wrong with being over the top sometimes, this is the internet afterall. Cheers.

We all have to remember something:
1. How do we know that this is the 100% truth for every cutscene? It could have some long scenes to put the storyline out there (Hence the opening), then some short ones to remind you where you at, or give a prespective that a battle cant give. Besides, I'd rather watch a cutscene than push the X button a zillion times to get passed all the text. Especially those older games where they think everyone reads at a mere 1 word every 3-5 seconds. I have yet to find a game that uses text that can display it as fast as I read (The reason my thumb hurts while playing those games is because I'm mashing the button furiosly trying to force it to "type" fasted, or go into the "whole sentence" display.)

2. As its already been stated, Square-Enix can, and prob. will, change the game a bit in translation. Look at FFX-2 There is 3 different versions to buy...

3. Even if the cut-scenes are long, I still get the chills when i think how great that reported 17 min of opening FMV, amongst others, will be. Remember the FMV's in FFX. I was sitting there repeating "Oh my God!" while i watched some of them.

4. The lack of Save spots in a game isn't really going to deter me from buying a game. If that is a reason to deter you, you are pathetic, and are looking for a reason NOT to buy the game, not a reason TO buy the game. Something that trivial can be overcome by (once again, as previously stated by others) leveling up your characters to a healthy level, or the always great "Gameshark time!" If there is the need, there will be a cheat on a cheating device for "Save Anywhere", etc. I know I got tired of the random battles in FFVII slowing me down, so I used Gameshark to get rid of them. Yeah, Im a cheater...

5. In conclusion. Let's at least wait for the game to come out in the U.S. before we knock it. Then if it sucks, we can cry and whine about how bad it is. But untill then, button up that lower lip and act like an adult.

I tried to resist, but alas, this is too irritating to *not* comment on.
Cutscenes controls, at the minimum need:

1.PAUSE (I hope if they are not skippable, they are at least pauseable)
2.Skip

And if they wanna be nice about it:
3. Restart/replay cutscene (for those times you *didn't* mean to skip it.

Also, do they follow things like the "Twinkie denial Conditions" and the "Gamer's Bill of Rights?"

Come on. Sometimes supper is NOW, or whatever. Couple that with the worst penalty in an RPG, lost progres, and I will stop playing the game, sometimes permanently.
Even if it is a destructible (upon the first reload) save, to prevent people from save/loading. But then, if they want to be anal about their items, HP and MP, let them, I say. I want a game where I don't have to play for another 45 minute just to get to the save point, after I'm already done playing.
DO NOT mistake tedium for challenge.

--Branewalker

there's one thing that pisses me off more than anything in a game and it's a requird cinema scene of some sort. seriously, if i walk into a room that turns into be a boss room, and didn't fully prepare myself and die after a 10 minute cinema scene, i don't wanna watch it the second time after i've loaded.

not only this, but all games with cinema scenes, be they video or machinima, should give simple controls for rewiding and fast-forwarding as well.

next we're gonna start seeing them filled with ads that you can't skip, like those disney DVDs and the 'unskippable' previews at the beginning. (i use quotes because there are ways around them, but for most people on standard dvd players they're not skippable)