jesus christ, thats harsh.

This is getting ridiculous.

How long does the Chinese government think it can keep its people ignorant of the world around them?

It really makes me sick and angry. Things like this shouldn't exist anymore. Period.

holy crap.

Yet they don't have similar problems that places like the UK and (worse still) the USA have. whats betting that most the people here who mindlessly thing this is a black and white, clear as day bad thing will go on, download some porn, some warez, and other stupid things.

I think it's a little harsh but I suppose they have their reasons. Those, albeit few, deaths from asian countries of gamers playing in cafes for hours and days on end are a reminder that some places need restrictions.

... Don't understand the karaoke bar part to this though...

If you think that's scary, you don't even want to know the amount of US treasury bonds held by China. THAT is terrifying.

This isn't about China saying a few people can't go into internet cafes. Chinese web restrictions are much worse that that. Believe me, the Chinese government is more worried about the social aspects of online games than the fact that some people are so dedicated to them that they stop eating.

MMOGs allow Chinese people--and more importantly young Chinese people who are still forming new thoughts--to connect with people from other countries. Countries where speech is free and people are allowed to search for whatever they want on Google.

Furthermore, the cafes are not all exclusively for gaming. These are places where normal people can access the internet and search for information.

Whatever your feelings on games and addiction are, this is a bad thing for the millions of people in China.

Yes the Chinese government does have its reasons, but the protection of its people is not one of them.

Karaoke is Japanese ergo it's evil. I bet Chinese think North Korea is a happy place where communism works. Nowadays things are different in China and it's becoming more capitalistic but still the government does it's best to keep even what little they have left of the communism by doing all kinds of restrictions.

"whats betting that most the people here who mindlessly thing this is a black and white, clear as day bad thing will go on, download some porn, some warez, and other stupid things."

This isnt about dealing /w porn, its about the commie gov censoring as much as possible. Have you been paying attention to the google fiasco?
go here

http://www.google.cn/search?hl=zh-CN&q=june4th&btnG=Google+%E6%90%9C%E7%B4%A2&meta=

thats chinese google for ya see the message at the bottem? Translates to

"In accordance with local laws, regulations, and policies, some search results can't be displayed"

Its about censorship pure and simple. The commies know that revolutions start /w newer generations so censor the youngers first and censor them hard so they dont grow open minds.

"If you think that's scary, you don't even want to know the amount of US treasury bonds held by China. THAT is terrifying."

Yep usa gov is stupid selling bonds to china is dumb for two reasons

1st your going in debt overspending on stupid shit

2nd WRONG COUNTRY BROZ... every1 has been saying for decades in us that CHINA IS BECOMING A POWER... CHINA'S ECONOMY IS GROWING...CHINA IS GOING TO SUPRASS THE US ECONOMY...and guess what it hasnt happened yet. Goes to show ya how communist regimes supress a societies growth. Billions of ppl living and dying with no growth. So not only are we stupid for going so far in debt on poor spending agendas we are stupid for investing in the wrong country.

It's not just a Google fiasco. Right now representatives from Google, Cisco, Mircosoft and Yahoo are testifying before Congress about their actions in relation to the Chinese government's attempt to restrict the flow of information into China. x7 is right--it's about censorship.

The best thing we can do is try to get the info flow opened up into China so everyone there can see that cybercafes (and karoake) don't make the world end.

Don't forget that this internet censorship is brought to you by the same government that ran tanks over protesting students. The Chinese governement is hypersensitive to any criticism has outlawed some religions and still occupies Tibet.

The real kicker will come in 10-15 years when China & India will not have enough water for billions of people.

Sounds like China is going through America's prohibition days.

It's scary to think that there will soon be a heavy underground for internet gaming/usage in China because of this.

I'm suddenly glad that I live in the US of A. (But not overly so...)

Reading reviews of any China news just make me sick. China is born to be evil in western eyes. Everything it does is politically evil. Wish every chinese can read English and learn how you people think. Nuke China when it does not buy your stuff, Nuke China when it sells stuff, Nuke China when it tries to slow down the growth of population, Nuke China when it does not slow down the growth of its population.

History lesson for you YZ:

This is what the chinese ppl did
http://www.cnd.org/June4th/demo.html

This is what the chinese ppl got from their government (warning gross stuff here).
http://www.cnd.org/June4th/massacre.html

The government is criticized for its consistant ignorance of human rights.

The movement in 1989 started from the college campus and grew. The chinese gov is learning well to censor the young.

YZ,

Are you saying that you *agree* with the censorship created by the Chinese government?

I don't see anyone here saying that China should be nuked. I only see people that are appalled by the behavior of its government.

I don't see how anyone could support the Chinese government on the issue of civil and human rights. I don't think anyone here believes that China is "evil," just that its government is overly oppressive of its people.

To x7:

As a Chinese, I would think in this way:
1. it is bad thing
2. if Chinese Gov. was not scared of western too much, it may do something different.
3. to me it is only small part of the history. Chinese people have a lot to remember. Talk to real Chinese and not the ones only want to move to US and will do anything for it.

Most of you here may not like this but, This is their war not ours. We dont have to like it but they are the ones that have to fight it.

"if Chinese Gov. was not scared of (its people) too
much, it may do something different."

There fixed it for u.

"Chinese people have a lot to remember."
Yes they do, EXACTLY what thegovernment tells them to remember. The gov is all too obviously in
the middle of a large censorship campaign right now.

Thats what it all ties down to. The gov. is ignoring human rights with acts such as the birth control (do you know how bad the orphanages are right now? FILLED with poor little girls who were abandoned becuase people want to have there boys and cant have more than 1 for fear of enforced abortions), the censorship, removing peoples homes and destroying farmland for the 3 gorges dame; these are all things happening now. Ya the chinese people have lots of horrid things to remember if the govs lets em. Or they can take a good look at whats going on today and see more.

"16. Most of you here may not like this but, This is their war not ours. We dont have to like it but they are the ones that have to fight it."

Yes they do. But after june 4th 1989 coupled with consistant censorship that day is no where near the immediate future.

?ºàYZ ??·?¼?º?§?ºº? ^^ I'm sorry if you're offended when people think bad of China, but it's of course not your fault but the governments. Non-Chinese don't like such cencorship and stuff, and most think that Taiwan should be independent. In my Chinese class the teacher specifically told us never to talk about Taiwan in China unless we want trouble.

Yeah that massive Three Gorges Dam is just a stupid project, anyone interested go read about it in wikipedia.

You will be very angry if I tell you we don't care. Every thing has both sides. Only the outsiders can conclude without consideration of all the aspects. Hearing it is just less than experiencing it. We are not a Christian country, and we don't care ;)
All those books can sell well in western. If it can make you a living, good.

"We are not a Christian country, and we don't care ;)"

You just dont get it.

Human rights isnt about christianity, western government, or western culture.

Human rights lies in the simple fact that cultures (regardless of location) are nothing more than ideas held by groups of people, and that government (regardless of location) is nothing more than a group of people and that these groups of cultures and government are comprised of single individuals that are all born the same and die just like every other person on this planet. That means that all people regardless of what group or culture or government they belong to have no inherent right or power over another individual.

This debate isnt about cultures having different values. Its about people failing to recognize that whatever power or authority a body of just more people (plain and simple) have over them is only their becuase they themselves allow it.

Thanks, I just don't understand the way people thinks. Do you know why there are so many Voice of America programme? The only evil is communism. When fighting against communism, Sadam Hussein is friend, Bin Laden is friend. If China is rich enough to finance 100 Voice of China, I believe US will have sensorship. Taiwan and Mainland China would united years ago like America Civil War finished long time ago if it was not because of US. Westerns just want Chinese to believe it is good for them to have weapons and let's all forget ripping China some time ago. Let's all believe in free market and peace world, only when US is winning.

"I believe US will have sensorship"

Even if it did they whole premise of human rights is beyond the scope of US governement (Or ANY governement). It would be just wrong for the US to do it as the chinese government.

You mean managing their country is wrong? And you do know how to do it better. Of course then you can break in someone's house and tell the people they don't like the house and re-arrange it for them. Probably it is wrong for you. I think the only wrong thing is eating mushroom raw.

See here you are confused again.

You wont deny that humans are equal therefore a government (body of humans) has no ability to harm or steal for from its people. You wont deny that the sole purpose of government is the protection of those rights (why else would a body of people join together that to protect their interests?) instead you try to draw the line that since peopl are equal ideas are equal. Which gives governments the ability to manage as they see fit. But like people ideas can be measured. Measure a person and you find the facts underlying their existance. They are all born, they all die, they all have needs. Measure an idea and they are all based open the facts underyling their existance. The premises that lead to communism is not the same as the premises leading to human rights. Believe it or not the ideas that the jew is lesser compared to the german, the black compared the white, lower class to the upper government established class are not equal to ideas established on much better analysis, much more solid comparison, and far truer logic like human rights.

Sorry but thats what I have to leave you with because I am off for work.

See here you are confused again.

You wont deny that humans are equal therefore a government (body of humans) has no ability to harm or steal for from its people. You wont deny that the sole purpose of government is the protection of those rights (why else would a body of people join together that to protect their interests?) instead you try to draw the line that since people are equal ideas are equal. Which gives governments the ability to manage as they see fit. But like people ideas can be measured. Measure a person and you find the facts underlying their existance. They are all born, they all die, they all have needs. Therefore they are all equal. Measure an idea and they are all based open the facts underyling their existance. The premises that lead to communism are not the same as the premises leading to human rights. Believe it or not the ideas that the jew is lesser compared to the german, the black compared the white, lower class to the upper government established class are not equal to ideas established on much better analysis, much more solid comparison, and far truer logic like human rights.

Sorry but thats what I have to leave you with because I am off for work.

"I believe US will have sensorship."

Wrong. There's something called the First Ammendment that prevents that. =)

Are you so blinded by propaganda that you can not see the EVIL that lies within the Chinese government? It has nothing to do with any religion, any observer can see the harm that is being done.

The Chinese government can not last forever. In this day and age you can not stop the truth. It's is grasping at straws, desperately trying to keep the people ignorent but they will fail and IT WILL BE OVERTHROWN. And with it will come freedom.

Seems kind of silly to argue with someone who lives in China every day about what goes on there, but that's just me.

Let's not get too up in arms over this. You must remember that western history is hardly a slate clean of injustice and corruption. Some of that darker side of western history has even had quite a few ill effects on China itself. I wouldn't be too quick to judge.

Pata Hikari:
"THE First Ammendment" "can not last forever. In this day and age you can not stop the truth. It's is grasping at straws, desperately trying to keep the people ignorent but they will fail and IT WILL BE OVERTHROWN. And with it will come freedom."

Too lazy to type, sorry

"You must remember that western history is hardly a slate clean of injustice and corruption."

I had already previously stated that human rights is above western civilizations and there history. Note that the examples of bad ideas when I was discussing that ideas are not equal were all examples from western civilizations.

Well you missed my point because I was saying what I think is one HUGE reason why ideas from the west tend to not be popular in China.