Bethesda is invariably shooting themselves in the foot. Oblivion is a great game, but 2 pieces of armor for 2 dollars is no go.

Most people, including me, will refuse these costly mods on the basis of principle more than anything.

Even with the DRM they have with the mods, people WILL start pirating them eventually. Bethesda's stance and their unwillingness to relent in any way will only make that choice easier to make.

You can not compare point values on X-box live when a large chunk of your audience are PC gamers who can mod things themselves.

Boy, I guess this guy needs to get out from behind his computer and rejoin reality. People are pissed, and with good reason.

You build a business one customer at a time, and you ruin a business one customer at a time. I already won't buy anything from EA because of the crap they pull. I don't want to do this with Bethesda, but this guy's attitude and response to the situation aren't making him many friends.

My interpretation of the comments...

"We tried to find a spot for [the download] that fit with what other things were out there. A Theme costs 150 points. The Kameo thing was 200. We're trying to find the right spot that fits..."

Translation: We'll charge as much as we can get away with, especially those dumb 360 owners.

"We've got a couple more [downloads] we're working on finishing... We want to put some different things out there and find out what folks want and what they don't want."

Translation: We've got a bucketload of content that wasn't finished in time for release, and we'll do our best to make those customers who waited patiently or even bought an Xbox360 just to play this game buy it.

"These are optional things, not requirements, so if you don't want to get them you don't have to."

Translation: Suck it up cry babies.

It'll be much easier for PC users to reject this fee. The best Morrowind mods were created and released by users--not by Bethesda. I'm sure the same will be true of Oblivion. Unfortunately, there is not currently any way of using PC mods on an XBox 360 (at least none that I'm aware of).

Everyone can complain, but if no one actually buys this content, then they will stop doing it.

Complain about the people that buy the content, not about the people that sell the content. If the idea makes no money, then it won't be mirrored in the future.

this has got to be the dumbest thing i've ever heard. backlash? for what? selling something you don't need?

how many goddamn ringtones do you people buy? how much did those custom wheels on your car cost? a tattoo?

for god's sake people. if you don't want it, DON'T BUY IT!

this is a market economy. if you think it's dumb, don't buy it. they won't sell it anymore. i mean, good lord, do you buy every bobble-head baseball player you see?

dumb. stupid. retarded.

m3mnoch.

Look I'm not going to fault him for charging for little upgrades. I'm gonna say suck it up too. I just think he should be addressing some of the terrible glitches in the game before letting me dress up my horse. Or at least blaming the problems on the console itself... any console that "eats" disks deserves whatever it gets.

m3mnoch,that is so true.Obviously Bethesda wanted to implement for features into the game but couldnt due to timeline contraints.So the only way to put it inside the game was thru Live,and that means they had to work alittle extra to make it work.Nobody works for free right?

It's not just that they're charging for extra stuff we don't need. Horse armor is something that probably should have made it into the game for launch, and since it didn't we probably shouldn't be paying for it. I equate "themes" with ringtones, not game content. I might consider paying for a major update, not horse armor that the obviously had planned earlier and waited to release until now to see if anyone would pay for it.

Rob3rt.

My problem is this: They are setting a bad precedent with this. They clearly have a buggy game that was not 100% when it went gold. Instead of offering a patch, or including the content for free... they are trying to nickle and dime us for every cent they can.

I don't like where this is heading... I think this is more than just trying to offer us bonus content. This is more like trying to sell us a car, one part at a time.

How much more should I be paying for a game? Is $80 (cnd) not enough???

There's a difference between working for free and working for a massive markup. The WHOLE GAME cost what, about $60 or so, and they feel they can charge $2, which is 2% of that, for 2 cruddy little pieces of armour? Screw that, they can keep their ripoff armour.

If it were like 20 points it'd be much more acceptable. Hell Geometry Wars only cost 400 points and that's an entire game! Yes it's small but it kicks a lot of ass, a hell of a lot more than some horse trinkets.

Opps, that's 3%. Damn my crappy maths skills.

I wont pay for these things. I would only pay maybe for an extra part of the map or something like that...wait...no. I wont buy any extra part of a game. You know why? Beacuse publishers will purposly begin to leave content out of a game and hold it for a price later. It deffinatly seems like what they are doing now. Seriously, isn't $60 enough for a game?

And with that comment, Hyfc3s, you've single handedly opened up the flood gates of open source supporters who will no doubt flood this thread in little time. They shall proclaim from the mountain tops why their approach is better and how this just proves it. Woe is the dreariness that is now upon us.

Nick

People that approved this are stupid. This thing should be absolutely free. I remember Epic releasing bonus packs, map packs, mod packs, etc for Unreal Tournament for free. Some were user created but some were done by Epic themselve and they didn't charge. And Epic is just an example, there's many more like them.

At GDC, Sony announced that it would ba making lots more money off of new revenue models including the sale of in-game contant and advertisements.

The future on games sucks so hard with micropayments and advertisements.

Don't buy this crap. The only way for it to stop is if we collectively teach them that they can't make money off of us this way.

Yeah, if you don't want it, don't buy it, blah blah blah...

Here's the thing: It's a shortcut, and there are a lot of MMORPGers out there who detest that kind of crap. It's like when I was playing Magic the gathering (nerd alert!), when the endless new expansion sets came out, it all came down to who had the most money. The more real-life money you have, the quicker you can get the shiny-yet-useful-new-thing™ which will invariably help you to do something faster than those who don't have the cash.

More likely than not, those people who purchase said horsey-clothes will be villified and mocked in the game world. Most people regard this kind of capitalist structure within a virtual world as cheap crap (at the least), or an invasion of the real world into their fantasy life, thereby ruining the experience of it for them (probably more like it).

also, just to be clear: there is no in-game benefit to having the horse barding. it doesn't affect gameplay. IT'S FOR LOOKS ONLY!

it is a skin for your horse. just like you have skins for your winamp.

again. you don't like it? don't buy it.

m3mnoch.

The deeper problem with allowing, and excepting, the idea that it's okay to buy extra items in a game is that it can possibly lead to a sharp downfall in what games offer out of the box.

What if all you recieved from the next Elder Scrolls was a armorless character with a knife, and everything else you wanted to wear had to come from your actual pocket?

The more and more that people start to except after-market purchases as a typical event the larger a market developers will see for this type of content - eventually allowing them to "find the price that fits" for every single item.

It wouldn't have to stop with games of this genre either though. The next thing you know you're having to pump out money to upgrade your cars in Need for Speed, adding items to your home in the Sims, or onlocking kits in Battlefield.

The farther along these sorts of capatalistic game-mongers ideals advance the higher the chances that these additions won't simply be "optional things," but rather essentials to ensuring that you can even compete in any realistic way.

Further more this may open up a door to allowing socio-economic classes to start to form. Those with higher incomes can offord to spend real money on additional content, while there are plenty enough people out there who have a hard enough time trying to scrape up the innital money to even purchase a game.

The joy of online gaming comes in the fact that reguardless of age, race, or nationality, we can all come together in an imaginary world. In Battlefield 2 I could be commanded by a 12 year old in Tanzania, or getting sniped out by Robin Williams, yet we all have equal chance at success and friendship.

Sure, this may only be $2.00 horse armor in one game, but this is today. Who knows what tomorrow may hold if these sorts of actions are allowed to pursist.

oh. and also to be noted: this is a single player game only.

so, if someone else buys it, why the hell do you care? because it sets a precident? dude -- that door is already open. pay for advancement has been around for a looooooong time.

and now you people are whining about pay for useless content? seriously? that makes sense to you?

m3mnoch.

As a 3D modeler myself I wouldn't release it for free if I made it in-house either. These things actually take time, which costs money (remember, the companies actually hire people to make these things).

I do think that $2+ is a bit much. They could sell these things for $1, heck, even 50 cents and they would make much more money without fans going crazy and losing faith for a measely $2.

Note to the ignorant that didn't read the fine print: this is optional! You paid for the gold release of the game, and that's what was expected. This isn't a patch or a fault in the game engine -- it's pure aesthetic fan-service for those who want it.

If it's free, great. Accept the gift with open arms. It costs money and don't wanna pay? Move along, buddy -- obviously they didn't make it for you.

Oblivion is a great game, and to me, is worthy of a $100 purchase, instead of the $50 it actually is. I can see myself playing it for a long time. Now, I don't think releasing items piecemeal like this is wise. I would have much rather seen mini-expansions (kind of like BF2 and it's Euroforce expansion). Releasing a dungeon or 2, some more high level items, and the horse armor for about $10-15 would have probably hit the sweet spot for a lot of people. As it stands, I don't see many people buying horse armor (especially considering how useless horses are).

I am worried about companies releasing half finished games where you have to purchase the rest. Or purposely with holding some of the much cooler features of the game unless you "buy" the feature. Imagine if in Doom 3, you couldn't use the rocket launcher or pulse rifle unless you "bought" it. Or if in Ninja Gaiden, the Ninpous cost real money. THOSE are the kinds of scenarios I am dreading.

I am seriously surprised that these types of microtransactions didn't happen sooner. The PC, especially PC, and gaming community in general has become extremely spoiled with free content and become frugal with anything that has come out in the past, in so far as electronic content is concerned.
Bethesda is a business, not a charity. It's simple, they know they have a great game on their hands and they know people want these cool new add-ons. Why else would everyone be getting their panties in knot? Well, because you want it that's why.
I don't remember complaints about Crystal Quest, regarding new purchasable game backgrounds and music, lasting more than a second. So why is it different, because you want it?
Sure we did pay $60 for this game, but that doesn't entitle you to endless developer created mods and art. If you were someone who paid for the collector's edition of Oblivion, or special edition anything for that matter, the price of the new horse armor should mean nothing. This is a hobby; some people don't mind paying a couple dollars for something to add to a game that they love. I certainly didn't flinch when I found it cost something, I went ahead and bought because I love the game (Oblivion is the entire reason I bought a 360).
The days of Napsterism are over and illegal file-sharing will someday be near extinguished. Businesses know that they are missing out on a massive amount of revenue from online transactions. These kind of scenarios are only going to increase as time goes by. No console is immune from these inevitable microtransactions and PC, to a lesser extent, will start to feel it too.
Oh yeah, if you don't want it or think it's outrageous vote with your dollar - don't buy it.
I hope Bethesda sees this as a success and will feel inclined to continue to offer cool and new content.

Crack open your wallet, or enjoy the game as is. Your decision.

How about I choose decision number 3: Get as vocal about this as possible and let it be known that I don't want to pay money for something that has historically been free.

The only way to prevent the next generation from being expensive is to voice your concern. Or just buy Nintendo... *snicker*

On a more serious note, I'd like to take a poll of every employee working on Oblivion. "Would you pay a couple bucks for some horse armor?" How much do you guys want to bet that at least 90% of them say "Hell no."

Well theres a line in which developers will stop.Im pretty sure there not going to be selling Elder Scrolls 5 with have the game missing on purpose.The devlepors are not stupid and charge us extra for parts of the game. If you want your horse to look cool, then pay for it. The game itself has recieved great reviews, and yet people are still complaing because the horse armour that was SUPPOSED to be in the game didnt make it to the final edition. The people that develop the games and finanace them have to cut certain unecessary parts of the game to stay on track. Would you rather wait another 2+ months for Oblivian so you can get the fancy horse armour and whatever there going to release. Its a fact that there are alwasy going to be extra content for games that can not make it to the final release.Its also abusurd some people would PAY for a patch to fix some of the bugs they should have taken care of but wont pay for an extra horse armor?

"What if all you recieved from the next Elder Scrolls was a armorless character with a knife, and everything else you wanted to wear had to come from your actual pocket?"

i hate this argument.

duh -- people wouldn't buy it. why doesn't any consumer product cost more? competition for dollars. if your item is over-priced compared to a competitor? you don't sell anything.

you come out with a game where you start with just a knife? your competitor will come out with a game where you start with a full set of equipment. his game sells. yours doesn't. you go out of business.

it's econ 101.

people complained that games are short -- thus, short games didn't sell well. now, we get long, long 100+ hour games like oblivion.

people say, now we have games that are too long. we can't finish them. games are too expensive we can't afford them.

xbla comes out. episodic content comes out. steam comes out.

this is a player driven economy. a gamemaker would be an utter fool to put out a game that would meet with mass derision. taking advantage of a playerbase is bad. offering an option for people who like customizing their avatars -- how is that bad? how is an additional, OPTIONAL choice bad?

this topic is just getting a lot of heat because some jackass thinks it's a 'buy an advantage' scenario.

again: stupid issue.

just don't buy it. if you are retarded enough to feel like you NEED to buy 'horse wallpaper' and then complain about the price? well. god help you.

m3mnoch.

This is something that should've already been in the game to start out with. So I'm not going to buy it for 2.50, especially when the PC users only have to pay 1.99. It's horse armor...seriously, who cares that much?

"How about I choose decision number 3: Get as vocal about this as possible and let it be known that I don't want to pay money for something that has historically been free."

Nothing speaks louder then not paying. Nothing. We live in a capitalistic (for the most part) society and GOD BLESS IT! The system works and continues to churn out many wonderful things.
Bitching didn't kill New Coke, Dreamcast, or the pet rock. Not buying them did though. If you think some ranting forum speaks louder than sales than you truly don't understand America.

"We want to put some different things out there and find out what folks want and what they don't want."

My translation:

We want to expirement with prices to find the absolute maximum we can charge.

Obviously they've now found $2.50 is not it.

It is only $2.50. Hell, you can barely buy a 16oz soda for that price. I bought it without thinking twice about the price and I will buy other skins for games when they are released.

"this is a player driven economy. a gamemaker would be an utter fool to put out a game that would meet with mass derision. taking advantage of a playerbase is bad."

Go to their official forums and look at the amount of derision from 1)scaling and 2)pay-for-plugins

Bethesda doesn't decide if they are taking advantage of a playerbase or not. The playerbase themselves decide this, and right now, except for you, they see Bethesda as taking advantage of the playerbase.

I don't see why people are so upset.

The market will figure this one out -- if people don't want to pay 2 and a half bucks for horse armor, they won't. Then Bethesda won't make money, so they'll rethink their stance.

No need to be irate.

200 for some horse bling! I'm not afraid to admit that I got it. All you haters can just step off. Its sweet to ride around at night with your enchanted weapon with the neon red glow.

When will they release the bumpin' sounds system for it? I'm debating between the Alpine Lutist or the Kendwood Mandoliner. I'm thinking they will run behind you playing dope beats. Or ride donkeys or something.

I already got my posse started from becoming Area champion.

Okay, I'm actually going to comment for once.

Everyone complaining about the price, it $2 damn dollars, go out on the street and you will find that. And second, it's not like they are forcing you to buy the content.


I am so sick of gamers now-a-days, they always find something to complain about.

uy tran.

really? who are they taking advantage of? you? someone you know? who?

do you really have a hankerin' for that horse decoration? is it something you feel you just can't play the game without? how dare they! charging me for something i really want! damn bethesda! damn them to heck!

oh.

wait.

you don't want it?

really?

gee.

so -- you're not going to buy it?

neither is your friend? neither is anyone you know? wow. that's weird. i bet if noone buys it, it'll prolly go free, huh?

wow. prices adjust to market forces? what a crazy world we live in....

m3mnoch.

"I am worried about companies releasing half finished games where you have to purchase the rest."

We all are, but that's not the case with this game. They released a fantastic, huge game that really has never been done before at this scale. Why fault this company for releasing enhancements. (regardless if you think they're worth spending money for?). At the end of the day, this doesn't affect this game in any way, shape, or form.

You didn't receive Quake 6 with 2 levels and 1 weapon. You received a game that is the epitome of what a fantasy world should be. This does nothing to detract from that experience, and it's purely unfounded to think that this will emminently happen for all publishers, for all games. Most likely the games that don't even garner good reviews may suffer, but then again, who cares?

Selling "crippled" games and almost imediatly adding "new" expensive content seems kind of absurd.

It doesn't matter, its not as if I can't live without the horse armor.

The era of a la carte content is here. Get used to it. Players atually taught game makers that they would pay for content instead of taking the time to earn it, just look at the rampant black markets for goods in just about every mmorpg. The ironic thing is, players get super pissed when mmo administrators try to crack down on those markets, and then they get super pissed when the game makers try to enter the market. I have a feeling that bethesda will realize that 2.50 is a little much for pony skin, but that isn't going to stop them from eventually finding a sustainable equilibrium point for new content.
IMO, this new model is actually a good thing. In the end it just means more choice for players. Like everyone has ben saying, if you want it buy it otherwise don't. The market prevents game makers from shoveling shit into our consoles and then charging us extra to make it playable. If they did that, gamers would learn pretty quick and find something else to do.

memnoch

What was the point of that post?

I wasn't even disagreeing with you. You stated the obvious: "a gamemaker would be an utter fool to put out a game that would meet with mass derision." I showed you that people WERE deriding the game.

The point is that people are deriding Bethedesa because of the pay to play mods, regardless of their reasons for doing so.

I never said anything about taking advantage. I originally said I'm not buying it on basis of my principles: don't pay for what you can get for free, heh.

You keep complaining about NEED and DON'T BUY IT IF YOU DON'T WANT IT. I don't NEED coffee from starbucks. But if they charge too much for it, I won't buy for it. If it's the right price, I will buy it. It's never a question of NEED.

"Everyone complaining about the price, it $2 damn dollars"

It's $2.50 on the XBox 360, or 4% of the price of the game.

4 percent...think about it.

Hopefully we'll just see a mod with horse armor ;)

But if they start charging for patches, that would be lame -_-

"But if they start charging for patches, that would be lame."

You know, I can see this happening as games grow more complex. I wouldn't put it past some publishers to do this. At the very least, we probably won't be seeing additional features/extras in patches anymore, but rather just major bug fixes.

Hope I don't sound silly. Just worried.

You have to pay $.51 more than the PC Oblivion content if you want the content on the Xbox 360? Bastards!

Is this issue that it's for-pay content? Or is it that it's 2.50$?

I mean, if a new car was released every month for PGR3 for 2$ I'm sure millions would be the new car every month. And why not? Even if it wasn't any better it'd still be that new car.

As long as folk aren't getting better items just because they paid for it, I have no problem with this. To me it *builds* customer loyalty.

Personally, I think 2$ is a bit much. 50 cents or a buck is probably more like it. Especially if, over time, Bethesda builds up a library of like 50 new items.

The whole point of this is to allow publishers to extend the coolness of a game after the fact. Sure their timing was bad (it was originally shown off as something to go in the Gold edition). Sure, the pricing is off. But I don't see why this demands the outroar it's gotten.

Again, is it the price people are objecting to, or is it spending money on an upgrade to a game?

When MS announced the Xbox Live Marketplace it was supposed to be about microtransactions. Yet there are very few items on there that I would consider to be microtransactions. Themes, gamer picture packs, horse armor are all >$1. A dollar is not a microtransaction; in my mind a microtransactions is something that you can count with pennies and nickles, and possibly dimes. I do not have a big problem with all the content on the Marketplace that developers are trying to charge for, what I do have a problem with is their prices.

Horse armor is just the last in a laundry list full of overpriced items on the Marketplace at the moment. Now if the horse armor was priced accordingly with the value add it brings to the game, say a couple cents. Let's say a whole nickle, or 5 Microsoft Points, that would be a microtransaction I could get behind, and I bet a whole lot of people would not be complaining about Bethesda on forums and instead would be riding around on their new pimped out ponies.

So I say to Bethesda, to other developers and to Microsoft, price your stuff on the XBLM accordingly. Make it a microtransaction of only a few MSP and you'll virtually eliminate gamer outrage, and sell a hell of a lot more content.

Speaking of downloading content after the fact, is there a way I can get a patch from Joystiq that disables or blocks the pretentious practice of using a signature in your comments? I can read your name in the "posted by [blank] space along with how many super stars you have accumulated.

J B COUGAR

Jeremy Wright

I think it's one for some people and one for other people.

The thing is, there are already a few free mods that totally blow the socks off of Oblivion's 2 dollar horse mod.

The BTmod refines the UI to the point where you go "Why didn't Bethesda do this in the first place?" It expands the map screen so you can see about 30% more, item and font sizes are reduced in your inventory so you can see about 20 items at a time instead of 5. It adds a durablity counter under your weapon so you won't be surprised when it breaks in combat, etc.

There is also a texture mod that replaces the textures of distant mountains/lands. It is 2024x2024 instead of the original 1024x1024. It lowers fps by at most 1-2 fps, but adds a startling amount of detail to the game.

And now Bethesda releases a mod for 2 dollars that gives your horse armor. PC users, of which I am one of, are very spoiled in this aspect. Yes, it's totally optional. But does it affect me?

Of course it does. I love Bethesda. I want to see them succeed. I want to see them loved and praised. The horse armor mod is a bad step for them. If the orerry mod is any good, perhaps it will be a saving grace. But for now, many people are disappointed in Bethesda's choices.

All I want to know is how much is the patch to fix the $60 (US) game that also doesn't work in 4:3 vga mode? Very dissapointed with Bethesda, but I can always but $2.50 skin for a horse, hey, how about that for a free market economy. Can I buy skins anywhere else? Not a free market!

Sweet. Horse Armor. That can be put on any horse I "legitimately own." Nice. I guess I'll check it out since it's free... oh, wait? What it's $2.50!? Absurd!!!

Nah I don't really care at all. I'm not connected to Xbox Live and I don't need horse armor (I need a legitimately owned horse first). What else is coming out as a download for Oblivion soon? I want some badass stuff.

"6. this has got to be the dumbest thing i've ever heard. backlash? for what? selling something you don't need?

how many goddamn ringtones do you people buy? how much did those custom wheels on your car cost? a tattoo?

for god's sake people. if you don't want it, DON'T BUY IT!

this is a market economy. if you think it's dumb, don't buy it. they won't sell it anymore. i mean, good lord, do you buy every bobble-head baseball player you see?

dumb. stupid. retarded.

m3mnoch."




Are you trying to say you have never complained about the pricing or re-pricing of a product? Of course there are going to be complaints. Gamers used to get these things for free and now they are being charged for them.

Part of economics is understanding consumer preference. I certainly wouldn't dismiss consumer complaints as dumb, stupid and retarded. Maybe people do WANT the product, but feel it is overpriced, so they voice their opinion. It is the pricing that is dumb, not the product. I would be a shame to miss out on a revenue opportunity simply because your pricing analyst has it all wrong.

From what I understand you are working on starting up some form of online game or gaming service right now. If you end up pricing things inadequately and people complain are you going to listen and work with them or call them stupid and retarded?

I have no problem with micro-transactions, but I think this additional content is rather silly and I sure as heck am not going to buy it. When I purchase M&Ms, I don't buy one at a time for the price of a bag.