Oblivion's gender bias: the official word

Haven't a lot of RPGs done this since...forever? Male characters tend to have more health and/or strength while female characters would have more magic and/or agility. I remember seeing this back in the old Final Fantasy Legend games on the GameBoy and I'm sure a few of those 80's-90's D&D games for the PC had the same thing. Anyone who thinks this is a big deal shouldn't be gaming (among other things).

yea, because 150 pound women in oblivion should be as strong as 220 pound men...that just makes sense.


nope.

Its only a big deal because Oblivion is a big deal, the first real 360 game and the first PC RPG for a while, so of course its going to have dozens of stupid stories. Remember The Sims? You can simulate the Manson Massarcre! Oh Noes! Look for a lot more focus on it in the coming months until they get bored. Anything open-ended like this will get this sort of focus.

Maybe in future companies will have a gender bias toggle or allow indeterminate character gender. (you know, like most computer programmers?) OH CHEAP SHOT Woo!

(grumble grumble put Planescape Torment on Xbox Live Arcade grumble)

Here is a thought: Who cares? It's not sexest. And even if it was, so what?

I don't think it's a big deal. I play as a female Nord in Oblivion and loving it. Playing as a female add a little more difficulty to the game since females are weaker in the game, but if you are a good player, this shouldn't make much of a big deal.

yup agrees with #2 & 4.

who cares...and it's real. cry about it, when the world is so full of crap that fairytales & equal rights, mean everyone should start out with equal stats.

wait isn't the issue? no offense to joystiq, but this is a lameass issue & newstopic.

may be a slow news day and all, but this is pointless.
maybe one day we'll have more female action heros than male (wait that's today...)

not to be a jerk...but who cares?

Females are not "weaker". There are only three races, Redguard, Breton, and Khajiit that have lower strength, the rest are even between the sexes. It is also hard to claim that even direct combat related stats are male-strong. Again, the Kjajiit, females have a 10 point boost in endurance over the males, making them tougher.

As for actual gameplay differences, that makes sense. Why would the female theves in Anvil NOT want a female character to join? Should they just treat the female character as just another "husband to take advantage of"?

The minor differences offer a greater variety of play. Say you want to play an Imperial spellcaster, then it would be wise to take the female with higher willpower for example.

My goodness, so much e-drama!

The only people who give a damn are uptight feminists, striving to be depicted as being just as butch as men twice their size.

This just in:

Men and Women are different! Film at 11.

I understand that. That is why I mentioned this. Not people posting here, Iagree with most of them. It is the e-drama in the fact there is even an article on this.

Yeah, because if men and women are not portrayed as identicle besides the plumbing it's just wrong. (Sarcasm)

When are people going to learn that men, women, black people, white people, gay, straight, etc...we're all different, we all have different social/ethnic/inherant differances, and that's okay.

Pretending we're all the same for the sake of political correctness is not going to solve any problems. It's akin to cutting out your eyes to not see the differences, and it's a method of coming at a problem with misinformation and ignorance instead of facts. That's no way to make informed decision.

By and large, women are more social and men are stronger. That's not to say that is always the case, but it's the truth. If you don't like it, get used to being disappointed, the real world is an incongruent kind of place. Just because we're different doesn't make us better.

This is REDICULOUS! Dear gosh! I mean... seriously, these freaking feminists are going to ruin so many things if they keep going! Now because it's wrong to send men over women into burning buildings to carry someone out, people are being burned alive because the women aren't able to do it as easily. But it's all in the name of equality and those people's lives weren't given in vain because a woman got to go in instead of a man. +1 for the females. Why do they have to walk around with their panties in a knot all the time? These activists and whiners can do NOTHING but whine, because even with a sex change it will still be hard to be as strong, not to mentions all the other chemical reactions, rationalizations, and psychological as well as socialogical differences that can't be changed. It's pointless, useless, bothersome, and flat out freaking retarted. All those feminist dykes need to be put on an island called BUTCHer's Bay and lead their lives as pit wrestlers because they can't figure out how to be what a real women should be. A real women acts like one, and is immediately given the respect she deserves while do all this gracefully.

My roommate said there should be no difference between genders in the game. 15 minutes later she asked me to open a jar for her.

All you guys are crazy!!! It is just DEAD WRONG to have differences of skill based on gender in a virtual environment!!! Have you no respect for the feelings of others?!! Come on!!! We're living in the 21st century here! All things are equal here! There is no gender, race, age, or any other differentiating feature between humans!!! All human beings are created EXACTLY equal, and I think the developers should GROW UP!!!



(...that means this post was a joke for the challenged :)

RIDiculous RIDiculous RIDiculous RIDiculous RIDiculous RIDiculous!!!

To EVERYONE HERE: !!!READ A BOOK!!! The word is "ridiculous" not "rediculus", "rediculous" or anything with "RE" in it!!!

Seriously. I'm being a grammar nazi for your own good. You look like a frickin' dumbass when you spell it (or say it) that way, and it causes people to keep doing it because they think it's right. It's not.

As for this topic... It's not an issue. Women of SOME RACES in the game are weaker than men, but smarter/more interesting/whatever. It's balanced, and it's NOT ALL RACES. Jeez. Some females are tougher than males in the game.

Get over it.

I think it is interesting that Bethesda chose the character stats they did, when they could have taken the tried and true 'Baldur's Gate / Neverwinter Nights' model (characters sex and race differences are mostly cosmetic). From what I have seen, Oblivion does a pretty good job... they balance just about everything in the game. While it is impossible to please everyone, I think they did a pretty good job. Where they took away in one category, they added in another.

The fact that we can talk about this in an open forum is good. Equitability is a hard concept to define, not alone comprehend. I suspect Bethesda had several meetings themselves about this and many other issues.

The only thing that bothers me is a comment like "…what a real women should be. A real women acts like one". That kind ignorance is inexcusable and just reeks of misogyny. Dude, no offense as I am not trying to be rude to you… but you have absolutely no right in telling half of the worlds’ population how they should act or what they need to do for respect. Dare I ask where your warped ideas of the female identity comes from, Brock???

I must say, The ZeroCorpse is awesome, and so is Matt Burris.

Back on topic, I didn't even know about any gender differences. And now I do.

So if I were to be a female Khajit instead of a male, would I be quicker or more agile or something of the sort?

They should have a whiney egalitarian character who has +25 sensitivity but is penalized with -50 intelligence. His special power will be his ability to complain about inequality until his opponent's head explodes.

#16
You're a tool. Who the hell cares if some guy makes demands from women. They make demands from men all the time, don't be such a sucker for that politically correct/sensitive male crap. Women aren't attracted to sensitive metrosexuals, so don't bother with that act. Of course they will deny this to the end but just observe who they actually go out with. Just some advice for you.

The only warped minds in this subject are the extreme RIdiculous feminazis. Do i know how to treat a female? Yes. How do i know that? Because the answer is always better than i even treat myself. As i should to all women. I just hate that this ACTUALLY came up as a problem is people's eyes that the stats were different. Those are the same women i open a door for and they yell at me because they could have opened it themselves and feel offended that i respected them. I do that with anybody who is behind me when opening a door. I get so sick and tired of it.

microsoft drone, no offense but advice from a rude and insecure kid is not really somthing I am interested in. Thanks for the offer, but I think I will stick with what morals feel best for me. Thanks again for the insults and cheers to being rude.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny

This equal opportunities thing was taken too far years ago. What's next? Girls trying to piss in male urinals just to prove that they can? Males and females are born with differences - this is a fact. These differences exist, always have and always will. To moan that these differences are also apparent in games and campaign for them to be removed will not alter the real-world fact that women are physically weaker than men. This is why we don't have women labourers on construction sites. This is why women do not compete alongside men in the Olympics.

Shall we remove breasts from in-game female characters to make them more similar to men too? How about adding a penis to finalise the similarity?

These people really have way too much free time on their hands if they find themselves able to complain about something so mundane.

Maybe this could result in a really good thing for RPGs... for example, you could have three builds for each sex; A light, medium and heavy build where a medium and heavy build female would be similar in strength as a light and medium build male respectively. Even better, give all attribute stats a larger range, 1-50 for example, that will allow all 6 variations to be different from each other. Other factors could be differentiated also, for example, you could have a range where a light build female gets a bonus to sneak ranging up to the heavy build male that gets a penalty to sneak.

Now, on top of this, throw in some gameplay elements to really capitalize on differences. For example, you could have some openings that only a light build female could squeeze through.

I don't know about anyone else but I would absolutely love this. When I have the option to choose, I choose specific race/sex combinations to best represent the exact type of character I want to play. Think about it, in light of some of the above ideas, all of a sudden the -advantages- of playing a light build female character make her the smartest choice if you are playing a thief in oblivion.

It bothers me that a number of people seem to have no idea what makes a role playing game enjoyable and that giving male/female sexes differences actually makes the game fuller and more enjoyable. I can only hope that the designers of games choose to make the games even richer not poorer to address their issues.

Will a male wizard/sorcerer/magic-using type be as strong as a warrior/butt-kicking female? No. Simply put. Even in game, there is not really any question...

Will a male warrior/butt-kicker maxed out on strength be stronger that his female warrior/butt-kicker. Guaranteed. There's no point in arguing it. A man, big, board-shoulder type, the kind of man who goes in for wrestling and comes out a warrior or knight or what-have-you will always be stronger (in terms of "stats") than a lady of the same. Guys are designed for physical stuff.

But, hats off to the ladies for wanting to come down to our level...

#20

Thanks but I know what misogyny is, as I've been lectured on it in far too many pc college courses. At one point I realized that egalitarianism is just a power alliance, it has nothing to do with higher ideals.

Just because your morals feel right does not mean that you should follow them. People are misled all the time into working against their own best interest.

But I could care less if you take my advice, just don't call someone "ignorant" for preferring feminine women. If he claimed that real women are strong and independent you wouldn't have said anything, which shows that the morals you feel are right are in fact contradictory.

What's interesting to me (and I'm not trying to represent female gamers as a whole) is the apparent discrepancy here. On the one hand, we've got nice, normal-looking -- even ugly -- women and a whole lot of gender equality throughout the game. None of those skimpy armour debates or bouncing jubblies here, thanks. On the other hand, the game guide says "don't play girls" (for the most part) and the manual only shows male characters. It's something of a mixed message. Should we be steering away from these ugly, weaker (for some definition of the word) female characters towards big butch powerful men? Or is it all just choice?

Turns out it's all in the name of choice and diversity, but it doesn't look brilliant at a first glance if you're the sort of person who routinely wants to play females. I don't usually play females strategically, I play them because I feel more comfortable playing a woman, but I don't like the idea that in doing so I am intentionally crippling myself for a particular class choice.

Oh no! Female characters get 10 less attribute points in one skill while Males get 10 less in another! Call the cops!

ANYONE can earn back 10 attribute points in two levels if you know what you're doing, and in the grand scheme of the game 10 points means nothing at the start.

I appreciate that if I wanted to make my theif character as good as possible, I should start it as a Female, but since I'm not scared of a little training I'm going to actually choose Male.

Hey, #21 - "Girls trying to p*** in male urinals just to prove that they can?"

Actually, there's a little device out there already that allows this. It's called the TravelMate - http://www.travelmateinfo.com/page002.html . (There's also a disposable version, too.

Anyway, the whole thing in the article about 'gender bias' is a load of crap. I've been playing RPG's since the mid-70's, and guess what? It's a ROLE PLAYING GAME! That means that you assume the ROLE of whatever character you choose to play - if your stats say that you can play a Conan type, then more power to you. If they allow you to play a Grace Jones type, more power to you. It's called PLAYING.

I don't know why it matters. I'm a 220 pound former college football player. My girlfriend weighs half of that and is nowhere near as strong as me, but she'd still kick my ass :)

On a more serious note... doesn't the whole Redguard race strike you as a thinly veiled stereotype too?
They are the "finest warriors in the land", have a "sturdy constitution" - and the default hair is an afro (you can also select cornrows) and their default lips are very large. I mean... come on.

And don't even get me started on the High Elf stereotypes.

hrm....how many of male players look like, and have the same "statistics" as their characters? I'm betting very few. The concept of an avatar is to be a fanatasy live a fanatasy, not live real life. Someone said "IT'S A ROLEPLAYING GAME" - that's my point excactly.

Plus the in game "advantages" given to male players far outweigh the ones given to female charaters . (See 1-up http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3149439). In my opinion that's a bigger issue.

In the end, it's not about "feminists complaining." it's about who buys the game. Women are a whole less likely to plop their $60 down for a game that considers them second class from the outset.

Some people seem to be mistaking equality for equal ability.

I mean, I live in England, and most of my black friends are f***ing freezing their arses off all the time! And I might go as far as to say I believe on average black people are more sensitive to the cold. Am I racist? If you think so then you seem to be one of those that's struggling with the distinction between equal rights and equal attributes. I'm more likely just being inaccurate due to relying on a small sample of people (I have no idea whether black people are actually colder or whether my mates are just whiny =P).

Most women are smaller, and weaker. Perhaps if they had options to make the female character larger, and stronger, like the physically strong women about, but then you'd have a strong woman with the advantage of extra "social ability" or whatever attribute. Unless they did add in metrosexuals.

But it's a fantasy RPG, the world depicted is far more akin to a time of male dominance, where men are typically stronger and women more cunning.

Either way, making the male/female characters identical is not the answer, as that'd be as ignorant as thinking one's inferior to the other.

Oh, and The ZeroCorpse, aren't you being more of a spelling nazi than a grammar one?

This shit is REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDICULOUS.

If I remember correctly, can't you create your own class, and therefore create your character, male or female, with whatever attributes you want? I never played Oblivion, but I've seen my brother play it, and he played with a custom-made character (female too).

If you CAN do such a thing, then this whole argument about gender bias is practically moot, because you're given choice about whatever type of character you want, and therefore simply ignore whatever discrepancies there may be in the preset classes.

Making female characters statistically identical while physically looking vastly different is, as #30 said, REEEEDICuolous. If you want the females to be as strong as males, give them hulky arms, big shoulders, and A-cup breasts.

Would that fix the bias?

Keep in mind that the stats ARE balanced between the genders in Oblivion. When one gender got -10 to a stat, they also got +10 to another one.

This link illuminates the exact stat differences between the genders/races in Oblivion: http://www.oblivionmods.info/

They should just give us a choice to toggle gender bias on or off. More choice is always the answere.

News Flash: Men are stronger than women because they have more testosterone to produce muscle mass. This isn't sexist, this is fact. There *are* differences between the sexes, both physically and socially. While the social differences are certainly adjustable in a fantast world (or real world) strength is not. To ignore them is just as calloused as making the differences equate to value in society.

This isn't a question of equality in the workforce, or by any means advocating inequaliy in society. It's simply acknowledging some basic physical differences in the sexes. I think it's great that they give women different advantages (like personality) to at least give some key differences.

The limits for a man's bench press is around 850 pounds, while a womans is around 425. Roughly half.

Men are taller, heavier and stronger than women, period. That's just how God/Mother Nature made us.

To "microsoft drone" I have no idea what you are telling me i'm wrong about. From what you explained, we should never make choices off of morals cuz everybody's morals are equal and therefore there is no standard, so they are all equally as wrong. This is freaking stupid thinking. I'm glad people like you don't hold political positions. We might as well not even have police, i mean, who needs them? What makes them tell us our decisions based on my morals are wrong. I could keep going, but obviously since there is a standard moral of some kind set up in our justice system, the mojority ruled it into existance.

Secondly, This is a logical decision from Bethesda that anyone has to accept. Just like #36, whoever the crap you believe made the universe is irrelivent, God/mother nature/satan/zeus WHOEVER, WOMEN ARE WEAKER, NOT AS TALL AS MEN! Why is there a problem with this?! You are having to live your ACTUAL life in the same situations as the virtual one! I guess you can walk around bitter, that's your choice, but you better not freaking impose your whining on everybody else cuz we won't FREAKING STAND FOR IT!!!

Brock, I think he was talking to/about me.

However, I do agree with your comment regarding the importance of personal morals...

Yea I was talking to jaemz, got the message number wrong. I just pointed out that the morals that he feels are right are in fact flawed. He's been led to believe that it's wrong to expect women be feminine but ok to expect them to meet egalitarian ideals.

If this game made the women stronger than the men no one would complain and in fact the people that complained would likely value this inequity. This is a double standard and shows that egalitarians could care less about equality, they just want power for groups that they favor. It's another example of how the liberal/egalitarian ideology is deeply flawed and works against your own best interest if you are not in one of the favored groups.

drone, you might want to go back and see what I was commenting about.

Women are allowed to be feminine... or whatever they want to be. What is wrong, is for us to tell them what they need to do in order to be respected or how they should act.

My morals tell me that I should support the right of someone to do what they feel is right, no matter what their sex. Dude, I even support your right to try and correct other people, even if you don't listen to them in the first place.

This entire discussion is just stupid. Bethesda hasn't put a restraint on any of the characters. So what if you start off with a little less strength? A female's max strength in the game is 100 just the same as a male's max. People who find the starting stats of characters to be a problem need to grow up and find a different hobby.

Oh no! The game follows human biology! It's obviously sexist.

Okay, you people are delusional.

It's not that men, women, lawyers, magicians, movie stars, and computer geeks aren't different. It's about assumptions.

When we assume that a woman isn't as strong as a man, but is nicer, we're on thin ice.

When we get to the point where people DEFEND that kind of horse shit... we've lost our collective mind.

Seriously. There's plenty of opportunity for playing different kinds of characters, without imposing penalties for being a man, or a woman, or reinforcing ideas about "gender appropriate roles" by making it more attractive to play one gender for one kind of character over another.

In real life, there ARE some differences, places where men or women are statistically likely to have strengths, and some places where it's hard to keep up with the other gender... hip spacing, shoulder width, height, muscle type, muscle mass, pain threshhold, suitability for horseback riding...

but all that aside, putting that kind of attitude reinforcement into a game is just criminally stupid.
"Hey. You're gonna be an illusionist? Play a chick, they have better personality."

Fuck. That.

mazelmuda@hotmail.com