Foiled Columbine copycats are gamers ... so?

didn't a study recently say that 100% of children under 12 were gamers? i bet every single kid they were gonna shoot were gamers, too.

dumb.

I grew up playing super mario bros, but i'm yet to eat 'magic mushrooms' or jump on the backs of turtles, and kick them across the room.

This is why video games should have been banned when the first shooting happened.

Were the Columbine perpetrators ever linked with violent video games? I seem to remember something about 'devil music' and all that, but it would seem peculiar (albeit completely expected) that these kids were and the kids they were effectively copying weren't.

Gun control, blah blah, ad nauseum.

oh noes its teh MySpace society pox!!!!!!111

CG is right though... games are omnipresent. What would be a bigger shock: would-be white supremacist upstarts plan on thrashing up a school and post their "plans" on their emo MySpace pages or an upstanding Christian who tries to get a Halo 2 tournament sponsored through his church enjoys those smae games?

To lay this issue to rest I'll reiterate what we've been saying for the past decade: GAMES ARE NOT TO BLAME. Look to the parents for spending so much quality time with their kids.

I completely agree that it is inappropriate and incorrect to draw a causal relationship between violent video games and violent acts. However, I also think it comes off a little over defensive that this site jumps on every piece of news like this and immediately discounts the possibility that exposure to violence through video games or any other media played a role. There is no really good double blinded study that confirms a link here, but you have to admit that game rankings and age recommendations are there for a reason....

video games are and will always have to be defended.. .

because they're an easy scapegoat.. . blame it on the games.. . people would rather blame on something outside,

something outside that distracts from putting blame on themselves .. .

When I heard about this story my first thought was: "here it comes again."
I've said it before and I'll say it again, young men have been partial to violence since long before video games and all these violent games have done is probably prevented many more kids from becoming violent themselves. These games relieve the stress and anxiety these kids need to shed so they don't go on a killing spree. I believe that is why the judge threw out that anti game bill in Minnesota or wherever that was.
These kids already have too few distractions, to take away the violent games would be asking for trouble much bigger than Columbine.

The kids were also from Kansas...which can now be considered a Terrorist State (tm) and has joined Iran on the Axis of Evil hit-list.

BOMB KANSAS!

I bet they never say what the Columbine kids shirts said, huh? Natural Selection -- Survival of the Fittest. The false doctrine of Evolution did it not the games.

Now I don't like Kansas any more than the next guy but look at the mid east: you start bombing these crazy ultra religious fundementalist states, you just give them and endless supply of rocks to throw at you.

I'll agree with what everybody said, it's the parents, not the games, guns, society, TV, ect.

I will say this though that was pointed out to me. It seems that games are the new target now. Remember when certain movies, TV shows, and music were attacked? I know they still are some but hasn't that died down some with games? Since games like GTA and stuff are newer they seem to get attacked more? Violent and pornographic movies have been around MUCH longer than violent and pornographic games.

I don't see a different because blood and gore in most games is far from realistic while in the movie business they spend millions trying to make it more realistic. Take the new movie Hostel that just came out. I saw it in the theaters and thought it should have gotten a NC-17 rating. I hardly heard much of an uproar though even though the first half is a porn and the second half tries its hardest to gross you out. I'd rather have a younger kid play certain M rated games than watch that movie. Sadly though lots of parents and congressmen (most congressmen....ok ALL congressmen) have their head up their ass.

The better connection is violent tendencies and the use of MySpace.com

ie Sexual Predators, use of guns, etc.
It is all in one central place... MYSPACE.COM

Obviously MySpace is the evil do-er here.

"Now I don't like Kansas any more than the next guy"

That's pretty pompous.

Personally, I would like to blame the inherent seed for evil and destruction present in every single human being, and a situation that allowed that seed to develop into a near-tragedy. But that would admit that even the best person in the world has the potential to do horrible acts, and most people don't want to face up to having that potential in them.

It's much easier to demonize Current Entertainment Our Kids Like That We Don't Understand (I just can't wait to complain about those damned virtual reality games my kids will play by connecting their brains directly to the Internet) than deal with the darkest aspects of human nature - said darkest aspects scare too many people, particularly by how very common they are.

This is great. They find some kids with GUNS. They also find out the like VIOLENT VIDEO GAMES. And what do they choose to pursue? The games, of course. You'd think they'd be a bit more concerned about how easily these kids got guns and not about how many games they play.

And hold on a second, did someone just blame the theory of evolution? Whoa, go talk to Jack Thompson. I've heard he's looking for a new angle.

Though I didn't read anywhere that video games were specifically implicated as a possible cause of the violence, the fact that this was mentioned certainly implies it. This just seems to be the trend lately.

We can take heart, however, in the fact that the same thing happened with rock music. For the longest time reporters always felt compelled to mention that the perpetrator of any violent act was a fan of heavy metal or whatever.

While this casts a shadow over our favorite passtime, it really doesn't matter in the end. Games are protected under the first amendment. It could be debated for years without end whether the exposure to violence through games has any effect on behavior but ultimately we citizens have the responsibility to determine what we will play and allow our children to play, not the government.

As legal cases are brought against games designers and won in the name of free speech, reporters will begin to realize the futility of mentioning the connection. It'll take a while but eventually the fact that any criminal act was undertaken by a fan of violent games will be as unremarkable as whether or not they happened to like AC/DC.

This is getting really rediculous. What if somebody were to go on CNN and state something along the lines of: "Terrorists drive cars" would this make people think that cars are bad? Of course not. Like recently stated on here in a post - Video games are just the trend to blame right now, as were plays a while ago, then movies/cable. I just hope that something comes along soon to be blamed or people pull thier heads out.

well said benjamin.

what ever happened to just being crazy?

i noticed that all the big new companies are ALL quick to jump on the "blame it on video games band-wagon".
it creates a stir and they want some of our (game players)#'s to watch their crap.

damn media.

Its strange, here in the UK we don't have problems like this.. Yes, we have crime - but our kids don't go around shooting up the schools..

Why?

A> Population is smaller that much is true.
b> EVERYONE & HIS DOG DON'T OWN A GUN


Also, I'm getting increasingly worried about MySpace. This is from someone with a 15 year-old daughter who frequents it A LOT.

Things they had in common with other killers:

They used water to bathe/shower at least weekly.
They ate potatoes.
They all said the word "God" at least once.
They all had parents.
They were known to use chairs to "sit down" sometimes.
They used soap, sometimes.
They took aspirin or some other pain reliever every once in a while.
They attended an institution that was charged with teaching them what they know.
They watched TV.
They listened to music,
They had all seen a Kentucky Fried Chicken sign while riding in a car.
They all played board games at some point in their lives.
They all attended a religious service at some point in their lives.
They all saw the "Crazy Frog" ads on television.

Investigators should really check out all these things, too. We should consider a ban on bathing and playing board games, because I think that may be the combination that causes people to become killers!

No- Wait- It had to be that damned Crazy Frog. That would drive anyone to mass murder.

I know for a fact that these kids had a large amount of dihydrogen monoxide in their systems. That stuff can kill in large quantities.

"what ever happened to just being crazy?"

geves, give credit where credit is due. That line is from Chris Rock.

I hate to bring this up (mostly because I'm against everyone owning a gun), but in Canada we have a lot of guns too, but we don't have kids running into schools shooting each other (I have a feeling I may get flamed with generalization like that).

I'm not covinced its the amount of guns, I think it partly is that is easier to GET guns and ammo as well, as the type of guns available.

Remind me agian why you need a gun that fires 90 rounds/sec with armour piercing bullets....

Blaming videogames for violence is a bass-ackwards approach. Maybe violent kids just get a kick out of violent games, just like car and driving enthusiasts get a kick out of racing games. It lets them act out a part of themselves in a fantasy world devoid of real reprecussions.

Before you start sending pised off posts back at me, hear me out. Of course, not all gamers that play violent games are violent individuals. But maybe, just maybe there's a difference in how they play as opposed to how a "normal" gamer plays. Just like a deeper appreciation for certain types of music or movies. You can't blame an entertainment form. This is just an exercise is behavioural activities.

Prof-KOS, I totally agree with you (no flame here). Kids use the games to act out in some manner due to 'other' reasons. Eventually they 'may' replace their acting out from games to guns.

Rockinrobbie,

Unfortunately, there are school shootings in Canada. Taber, AB? What Canada doesn't have is four 24 hour news networks (I use the term loosely) clamoring for content. While trying to find some bits and pieces of information to fill their headline of the day, week, or month they inevitably have to sensationalize. The US population is ten times that of Canada's. Toronto this year has been pretty bad in terms of shootings (I think 3 times the previous record in shooting deaths).

The big problem here is that everyone, joystiq posters included are trying to find someone to blame. It's either games, or music, or guns, or parents, or the media. It's people, they can just be inherently violent. If a person has violent tendencies and something triggers that they will pull out all stops to lash out. If they can get a gun, they'll use it, if not they'll get a knife or a bat or just beat someone to death with their fists.

The best thing we can hope for is that parents remove their rose-coloured glasses and deal with a violent kid early in his life, not wait until they kill someone.

yeah i know it's from chris rock. but it's still true.
i knew someone would catch it :D

is it even possible to get online nowadays and not see a topic or poster bash america? oh well. who cares. not me. nice potshot though. :thumbsdown:

anyways yeah chris rock is right though.. these kids are crazy. you can't blame any form of entertainment with influence of today's violence. it's simply not true, they've done gazillions of tests and they all prove that it doesn't affect the viewer. these kids are just crazy. that's it. that's all

all of your schools are belong to us

"Remind me agian why you need a gun that fires 90 rounds/sec with armour piercing bullets...."

Have you ever played Duck Hunt? Seriously, we need something to take out that damn dog.

This just in ---

The would-be killers were readers of JOYSTIQ!!!

Sweet! I got a mention. I was reading this article this morning, just because it caught my attention, and when I go to that sentence, I just thought "Oh good grief". I agree with all the sentiments here, from some people just being violent.

Videogames are just the latest scapegoat....in reality, this is all still probably 2 Live Crew's fault.

Apologies, apparently I had a brain cramp mid-thought. The point I was trying to make regarding the population of the US versus that of Canada is that the amount of crime is pretty proportionate. Toronto has fifth of the violent crime that New York has?(guessing, don't know the facts off hand) Well Toronto is a pretty small city population wise compared to New York as well.

It is certainly troublesome that it seems pretty easy for a kid to get a gun, but a registry certainly isn't the answer. Banning guns will go over worse than banning video games. Perhaps just some sensible restriction on what a private citizen can own as a firearm. Remember that the right to bear arms was written when it took 30 seconds to a minute to reload after each shot.

oh no!! prof-KOS, i wasn't talking about you when i mentioned the potshot at america, i was talking about #21

no need to apologize man. i think your right in both of your posts. everyone wants to blame something, and if the media can get a potentially larger base of watchers like video game players to watch their crapfest, so much the better.

sorry if you thought i was talking about you bro.

The mainstream media sensationalizes issues to scare thier main audience(Mostly old people who don't play games).
In 1816 the latest "evil" thing to corrupt young people was a new dance crazed called the waltz. In the 50's Rock n Roll was "The Devil's music" and in the late 50's Tales from the Crypt comics were supposed to turn kids into axe murdering fiends.
As long as crazy people kill there is always going to be something popular that will get blamed for it because the parents of the kids and the kids themselves sure as hell won't own up to it.
It's always "The devil made me do it"

Besides, if this whole gamer violence thing was true then wouldn't one of us have killed Jack Thompson by now?

By attempting to find the source of the problem we aren't scapegoating. I would love to know what drove these kids to this point not because I don't recognize my own violent tendencies, not because I deny that part of human nature, nor because I simply want someone to blame but because I'd love to know how we, as a society, can prevent this type of tragedy.

I am a parent. If I knew that any one thing in my daughter's life were capable of spurring violence in her I'd want that thing removed from her sphere of influence. Whether it be a video game, a book, or a movie, it doesn't matter. I wouldn't deny the right of others to access that same material but I wouldn't want it in my house.

The media plays on the fears of parents such as myself by linking these stories to anything that could possibly be blamed. That is sensationalism. That makes the less informed buy their papers and listen to their broadcasts.

I want to make it clear, however, that by finding who or what is to blame people like myself do so in an attempt to better the lives of our families and not because we have some inherent desire to pass the responsiblity on to someone else.

I'm doing my scholarly paper on this subject this year. The one where, if I don't meet standard on it, I don't graduate High School... >_>

But I think I did a good job, and soon, a bunch of ignorant idiot paper reviewers will soon be converted. They shall come to the light side, I say.

benjamin,

No doubt that you want to do everything possible to removing harmful influences to your daughter. I agree.

However, these cases always seem to have another thing in common. Bullying. This isn't a direct cause towards violent activity any more than the video games are. What bullying is, is a trigger, it is the final straw. This is why it is so dangerous, but it is also an inevitability that kids will be bullied, and kids will retaliate. Our roles as the older and more wizened members of society is to stop occurences as often as possible, maybe then we can limit the damage. In the end though, the underlying factor is that the person who picks up a gun with the intent to kill someone (or a knife, or fists) is an inherently violent person and surely there were signs to that effect. We need better systems directed at identifying those signs or symptoms and treat the violence before it is dangerous.

I'm reminded of a kid that lived near me that was mildly agoraphobic and extremely hostile when confronted. Not dumb by any means, but not able to control his temper. He was arrested at 18 for beating his father to a bloody pulp and knocking his girlfriend around. This kid had been this way snce he was 6 or 7. I saw it when at 10 he was telling his parents to f**k off with impunity. Isaw it again when he destroyed his bedroom. Now at 22 he's a recluse with no job, living with his parents. I've maybe seen him a half dozen times in the last year. This is a kid who was able to quit school at 12 and has done nothing since. We, his parents and community, failed him. We failed to recognize the dangerous signs in him then, and it is much more difficult to correct now.

Hah. Brilliant. I don't play violent games and I'm never going to go out shooting people. Yet a 'mate' of mine takes drugs, plays violent games and is violent in real life. I think there is some link. at least here. they weren't playing Pokemon or Tetris were they? No. They were playing VIOLENT games.

to say there is no connection is stupid. there is always a connection, well, most the time.

If your such a fucking loser and psychopath that you have to do something like plan to kill fellow students who, probably for the most part had never said two words to you, at least do the rest of us a favor and get rid of all your video games first.

Okay, now that I got my sick joke out of the way, you know what else is a connecting factor between these kids, that kid from the Indian reservation, those Columbine kids, and all other school shootings like this? They all used, or planned to use GUNS! See how far these douchebags get if they have to do something crazy like that with their bare hands or knives even.

Someone was quoting Chris Rock earlier, but I'd like to quote him again:

I think all bullets should cost $1000.
$1000 for a bullet. You know why?

Cause if a bullet costs $1000 there'd be no more innocent bystanders.

That'd be it.

Every time someone gets shot, people will
be like, ''Damn, he must have did something. Shit, they put $50,000 worth of bullets in his ass.''

People would think before
they killed somebody, if a bullet cost $1000.

Man, I would blow your fucking head off,
if I could afford it.

I'm gonna get me another job
I'm gonna start saving some money...and you're a dead man.

You better hope I can't get no bullets on layaway.

Excellent point Prof-KOS. I remember bullying being cited as the cause of this type of violence in several cases. Combine that with an indifferent parental attitude with regards to disrespectful behavior (as in the case of your acquiantence) together with irresponsible gun storage and you have a recipe for disaster.

One suggestion: having nurses in every school like we used to here in the U.S. School nurses are trained in psychology and help victims of bullying deal with it in more positive ways. (I'm an RN myself.)

Indeed, if bullying could be determined definitively to be the cause, controlled role playing using violent video games under the supervision of a licenced practitioner could theoretically even be therapeutic (depending on who you talk to). Let's turn the whole damn argument around 180 degrees!

benjamin,

EXACTLY. Violent video games, if you strip away biases, could be outlets for violent tendencies.

jay #39 you make my point exactly. There is a connection. The person's likes, dislikes and behaviour ultimately define the types of games they enjoy. Therefore maybe that can be part of signs and symptoms rather than the 'cause' of their tendencies. Perhaps if a 16 year old boy, sits around in his bedroom every evening, playing GTA or a game of its ilk, destroying his posessions, berating his parents, becoming more and more withdrawn we should take notice.

Maybe the problem here is that kids of this generation haven't faced adversities like other generations. There have been no World Wars, no Great Depressions, no Cuban Missile Crises, no fascist regime changes like my father saw in Hungary in the 50's. Maybe they've never been forced to mature by circumstances out of their control. At least in the World Wars the violent had an outlet to channel those tendencies. A majority of them probably ended up on the front lines. I am of course joking, I would never wish a great war or depression on today's society, but these really are the first generations (starting with those growing up after Vietnam of course) to never go through that.

The media tend to report studies about how violent video games lead to aggressive behavior, etc. One thing people have to keep in mind is that these studies report correlations, which is far from being a cause. It's hard to prove a cause for any sort of social behavior because there are so many extraneous factors that come into play, and many of them are difficult to control for in an experimental study. It's one thing my research methods professor and stats professors pounded into us...Correlation is not Causation.

Is there a possible connection? Sure. Is it the cause? Not necessarily. More probable ties to violent behavior would be bullying at school or violence at home...but there is nothing that says that "yes, this behavior directly caused this person to act out violently."

Funny how the report didn't mention anything of the home life. At least they didn't report the video game bit as a main reason.

*sigh* We have some dumbasses on this site. Guns DO NOT kille people. PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE!

Washington D.C. enacted a virtual ban on handguns in 1976. Between 1976 and 1991, Washington D.C.'s homicide rate rose 200%, while the U.S. rate rose 12%.

Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. Between 1987 and 1996, these changes occurred:
Florida/United States
homicide rate -36%/-0.4%
firearm homicide rate -37%/+15%
handgun homicide rate -41%/+24%

Assault weapons were involved in less than 1% of homicides before the assault weapons ban took effect in 1994. The same is true as of 1998.

As of 1998, no law enforcement officer has ever been killed because an armor-piercing bullet defeated a bulletproof vest.

1995 Fatal Accident Totals
Motor Vehicles 43,900
Falls 12,600
Poisonings 10,600
Drownings 4,500
Fires 4,100
Choking 2,800
Firearm 1,400 (1.5% of fatal accidents)

For Children 14 and Under

Motor Vehicles 3,059
Drownings 1,024
Fires 883
Choking 213
Firearm 181 (2.7% of fatal accidents)
Falls 127
Poisonings 80

http://www.justfacts.com/gun_control.htm

When guns are banned, crime goes up. Look what happened to Australia after just ONE YEAR of a gun ban.

OBSERVABLE FACT, AFTER 12 MONTHS OF DATA:

Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2%
Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6%
Australia-wide, armed-robberies are up 44% (yes, FORTY-FOUR PERCENT)
In the state of Victoria, homicides-with-firearms are up 300%
Figures over the previous 25 years show a steady decrease in homicides-with-firearms (changed dramatically in the past 12 months)
Figures over the previous 25 years show a steady decrease in armed-robbery-with-firearms (changed dramatically in the past 12 months)
There has been a dramatic increase in breakins-and-assaults-of- the-elderly

STOP POINTING THE FINGER AT GUNS!!!

Ok, now we can get to the real meat of this debate, carry on.

"investigators had learned the suspects were computer buffs who liked violent video games."

That sentance could essentially be replaced with the following:

"SCAPEGOAT! SCAPEGOAT! SCAPEGOAT!"

There is a connection, of course. Congratulations on being the first here to admit it, Jay.

It is na? to think that spending 4 hours practicing head shots in a FPS won't effect you. At the very least you'll think about it during the rest of the day. Can anyone honestly tell me you don't feel a rush when you're looking through your sniper rifle's scope and spot someone standing still with thier head exposed. Come on... you don't feel the epinephrine dilating your veins and the subsequent rush of blood?

That could be very influential in a weak-minded individual. To deny that is close-minded. If you are the parent of a volatile teenager and allow them to play whatever they want, that is acting irresponsibly.

We are all influenced by our environment. Whatever makes up that environment will have an effect on us. If you surround yourself with negativity it will inevitably lead to negative thoughts. Want evidence? Look at police officers. How many cops live through violence every day and begin to think that that's all there is in the world? Hence the stereotype of the "jaded cop".

What about psychologists? The incidence of mental health problems amoung psychologists is significantly higher than the general public. Why? Because you can't spend all day every day listening to people with every type of thought disorder without developing clinical symptoms yourself eventually.

Whether these environmental influences impact our lives depends on our character. Obviously the strong-willed will resist influence. It all depends on how much time you spend thinking about it later, how much you agree with the values that are thrown at you, and how much personal identity you've established through self-assessment.

I do not in any way support the censorship of our games and I don't mean to knock FPSs or any other games. I, myself am a big FPS fan. It isn't healthy, however, to deny that the games we play influence us.

I play violent games and listen to "devil music." I'm known to my friends as one of the goofier ones. My girlfriend always says that I'm the most positive thinking person, ever. I host two radio shows, one playing metal music and another talking about games casually with friends (*PLUG* click on my name to listen to a few podcasts, or find it on iTunes - we're called The Game Show, Pratt Radio).

In the books I should be categorized as neo-Satan, but I live on the Healthy Choices (no smoking, drinking, drugs) floor in my college dorm! I rarely swear and I'm not a womanizer!

Take that, mainstream news! Take that, politicians!

Personally I play games to do things that I wouldn't or couldnt do in real life. It's a release.
years ago I was in an accident where the person who caused the accident was friendly with the cop and it looked like I was going to take a fall for something I didn't do. I was searched, thrown into a cop car and intimidated by a cop who wanted me to admit to something being responsible and then I was written up 3 citations and thought I would be sued for 1000's in damages... I ended up getting off scott free and the real person responsible was charged after other witnesses told what really happened but swear I have never wanted to kill someone as much as I did during that time! I played the hell out of twisted metal 2 (this was years ago!)and pretended it was the people I was mad at.
It was therapeutic and it was alot more productive than killing an actual person (not that I would have actually hurt anyone but fantasizing about it while playing the game felt great!)

Anyone who would take someones life from watching a movie or playing a game has got to be a disturbed individual to begin with. I used to watch 3 stooges every day after school and even when I was 5 or 6 I knew better than to poke someone in the eyes or hit them with a hammer!
But then again my mom watched TV with me and she would always voice her opinion when something violent happened.
Parents who use TV and games as a babysitter are asking for trouble. And in those cases is NOT the TV or games fault.

Ahh, I see we have an NRA member posting here now. Let's get one thing straight. I'd like to add an addendum to your statement.

"Guns DO NOT kille(sic) people. PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE!" Guns facilitate killing people.

The thing here is that guns make it easier and more impersonal for someone to kill someone. For instance a sniper can shoot someone from quite a distance, but if you want to kill someone with a knife you have to get up close and personal. I have no love for the firearms industry. Do I think there should be an outright ban? No. Should there be limits to the types of weapons produced for ANYONE outside SWAT and the military? Yes. Next you'll tell me it's for hunting, fine but I'm not a big fan of hunting for any other reason than feeding yourself.

Guns are facilitators to crime. It's wishful thinking that we could close the pandora's box and just go back to beating each other over the head and shooting arrows at each other. Let's face it, historically people and societies are violent. We like to think we outgrown that, but of course we haven't. There is no reason to carry a gun except to shoot something. May be that's a piece of paper with a human outline on it. Maybe it's just a target. Maybe it's a deer. Maybe it some poor bastard at the local 7/11. Then again maybe your kid, who could always seem to find his way into places you didn't think possible when he was a toddler, will find the key to the cabinet or the shoebox in the closet and decides to solve his bullying problem, or relieve himself of that annoying teacher that keeps asking for his homework.

I bet these five kids also drink milk... OMG! Milk is creating sociopaths!

Prof-KOS, you need your own blog, you sir are awesome.

I can't agree with you more. The invention of the gun was solely to KILL. The invention of the handgun was to KILL PEOPLE. Its entirely possible the handgun was created to kill people for the purpose of protection (Police), but regardless, thats its only point of existance. Sad really.

Anyways, yes, I agree with the NRA guy that guns don't kill people, and sure, armour piercing rounds probably haven't hurt police, but that doesn't justify the ablity to sell/own these things.