Xbox 360 to get CPU upgrade in 2007
In a joint announcement,
Microsoft and the manufacturer of the Xbox 360's CPU, Chartered Semiconductor, have announced that the console's
processor will receive an upgrade in 2007. The upgrade will move the chip's design to a 65nm manufacturing process (the
existing CPU is based on 90nm technology) which will provide lower power consumption and a smaller heat output. It's
expected that the upgrade will not alter the processor's performance as this could cause compatibility issues with
games already released or currently under development for the Xbox 360.Although the launch of the Xbox 360 was touted by Microsoft as a successful one, a vocal minority of people reported that their consoles were crashing due to overheating. VNUNet points out that console manufacturers often take advantage of new processor technology as it becomes available, so this may not be a direct response to Xbox 360 overheating issues.
[Thanks, SloopyDrew. Via VNUNet]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Fuzz @ Apr 21st 2006 9:51AM
Maybe they will be able to shrink the imfamous brick, too.
bandit @ Apr 21st 2006 9:54AM
before the PS fanboys come out the woodwork let me say this. The 360 was always intended to have this spec as promised by IBM. However IBM was unable to reach their estimated tri-core 3.5Ghz each and still mantain decent heat distribution for a home console. Anyway saying it is an upgrade is completely false advertising as its no more of an upgrade as moving from version 1 of the PS3 to version 7. The ONLY difference is the manufacting process which makes the chips smaller and produce less heat. How this translates into dollar amounts is that the newer version can now use less materials making it cpu run cooler and can reduce over all weight and other engineering obstacles which increase the price. Basically this "upgrade" position The xbox 360 in a place where it can further drop its price and likely by a significant margin. The Ps3 by contrast ships with a 65nm based cpu aas thats the only way they can fit the darn thing in a box. However since the 65nm is still early compared to 90nm cpu the initial to market price will be higher until 65nm tech chips reduce in price. Given the age this should happen anywhere from 8-12 months from now.
unreal mccoy @ Apr 21st 2006 9:55AM
I knew it! Microsoft is trying to change the VG market into the PC market. With upgrades every few years that render the preious iteration obselete.
ChaoZ @ Apr 21st 2006 9:56AM
Well, that cements it. I'm not getting a Xbox 360 until next year.
I don't care how peformance is supposedly the same, but heat issues on the Xbox 360 is a generally well-known issue. I was planning to get one near the end of the year, but knowning that a new processor is going out, why bother?
pete @ Apr 21st 2006 9:57AM
Do I hear class action?
Geoffrey Aladro @ Apr 21st 2006 10:03AM
Yeah, I am actually happy to hear this. I'll just wait for these new 360s to come out. Besides, by then it might be possible to compare the 360 and PS3.
ben @ Apr 21st 2006 10:04AM
the cpu wouldnt help my 360 much, as it is currently serving its function just fine as a paperweight
Fan @ Apr 21st 2006 10:10AM
Why even bother getting a console you have to upgrade through the nose to get it to work like advertised.
Lets see i need to buy pay extra for:
A hdd
Backwards compatability
Playing online
External HD disc drive
Its like they took out everything that really makes the 360 a good next gen console and said to themselves "Lets make them pay extra for everything at a later date. That way we can release now and make tons of money."
The 360 is like a downgraded Xbox with a better CPU that overheats. Right now i would rather buy the old 360 because of the good game library and the great OS hacks. Maybe if Microsoft actully listened to why the Xbox was a hit they would not have fucked up the 360 so badly.
Dt7 @ Apr 21st 2006 10:14AM
Thanks Microsoft.
LunarDuality @ Apr 21st 2006 10:28AM
I am so tired of listening to everyone whine about stuff like this. What do you think the SlimLine PS2 is???? It's a smaller, more efficient version of the same damn console.
Bandit has it right; this improvement to the manufacturing process was always slated to occur. And furthermore, it is what *every* electronics manufacturer does to reduce costs over the long term so that they can increase their profit margins through the life cycle of their product.
@ Fan
You list HDD twice, and technically 3 times because back compat is a FREE feature as long as you have an HDD. And really, did you "pay extra" for the HDD because you bought a Core? If so, then I'm sorry. But if you bought the Premium and think that it wasn't a valuable purchase then you should sell it and stop complaining.
And complaining about paying for Live is pointless. I don't mind paying a couple bucks a month for a robust and time tested service such as Live. If you don't like it, then stop paying for it.
I hope Joystiq updates their post because the headline is misleading and only leads to this kind of fanboyish ignorance. If you liked the idea of the slim PS2, then you shouldn't be complaining about this manufacturing improvement.
/rant
Yepitsjordannnn @ Apr 21st 2006 10:33AM
I didnt hear anybody complain about the N64 expansion pack. And that was a much bigger deal then this since it made consoles without it obsolete and unable to play some games.
This is minor compared to that
vidGuy @ Apr 21st 2006 10:40AM
So basically by the time you get the 360 to compare to the PS3 in specs, a $599 price tag on the PS3 is the cheaper choice?!!?
To me this basically says that MS is conceeding that their launch console is shite. And don't compare this to the PS1 and PS2 redesigns. The original PlayStation had a redesign, supposedly due to overheating, after 2 years, the PSone didn't come out until 5 years after the PS launch, and the slim PS2 came out 5 years after the original PS2 launch.
This is being announced 5 months after the 360 launch, right around the time the 360s are available in any actual quantity, and the redesign will be out around the time the competitors are launching. So the only head start MS has in this generation, IMO, is on games development, accesories development, and disappointment.
BillDoE @ Apr 21st 2006 10:41AM
Wait all you want folks while we have all the fun..hehe Im not a fanboy, I own almost every console made since atari 2600. Now didn't PS2 come out with a version that did break some compatibility? I still think we'll be lucky to see a PS3 before 2007. All I can say is, its getting to the point where this new technoligy is not totally reliable and getting an extended warranty is worth it these days. I nerver used to buy them and all my original consoles are still kicking.
blzeebub @ Apr 21st 2006 10:44AM
LunarDuality ,
To come to the "defence" of Fan (#8) ...
He states
A hdd
Backwards compatability
Playing online
External HD disc drive
NOT
HDD twice
HDD = Hard Disk Drive
HD disc drive = High Density disc Drive
Do you see the difference ?
remember the process
- think
- write
- read
- correct
- post
Master Phu @ Apr 21st 2006 10:46AM
Thank you bandit. Finally someone with some sense. Listen up fanboys, it's not an "upgrade" that you have to pay for. As technology advances it becomes cheaper and easier to manufacture cpus. It's the same processing power as you get now only the cpu is smaller in size. This means they can get more cpus onto one wafer and the chips are more energy efficient so there is less heat generated.
Jdoki @ Apr 21st 2006 10:49AM
MS would probably have been smart keeping their mouths closed on this issue to avoid all the idiots posting comments like SOME of those above.
All manufacturers update the hardware, just because it's only 5 months after release means nothing except that 65nm tech is now ready to go. The investment in this technology is far too high for even MS/IBM to invest in it PURELY to fix the overheating issues which have hit a few people's 360's. It's just the pace of progress!
DG @ Apr 21st 2006 10:50AM
It only seems fair to order a recall, don't you think? And perhaps throw in an extra HDD to all users to make up for the inconvenience?
Stuff like this is the reason people are attracted to console gaming. You already have the core system and oustide of some sort of memory device, no additional updates should be necessary.
It's only a matter of time before a new game doesn't work with the initial processor, and then what? The people that bought the console in November of 2005 are screwed? How is that at all fair?
Some people sneer at early adopters, and while I'll never be one, they certainly deserve the most attention by Microsoft. They were responsible for massive sellouts -- they deserve a working, fully functional system.
What a joke.
TK00 @ Apr 21st 2006 10:53AM
It's not going to run faster. It should be less likely to over heat, so consumers can buy without feeling obligated to buy an extended warrenty.
Mike Jones @ Apr 21st 2006 10:59AM
About Time IGN says almost all they're 360 have issues
IGN Insider Roundtable
Roundtable #159: Broken 360s
All I'm saying is my Dreamcast still works.
by IGN Staff
April 20, 2006 - David Clayman, IGN Insider: When the 360 was first released there were scattered reports of lemons and permanent crashes. A few weeks later there was a running joke in the office that inserting a DOA disc would result in a nuclear explosion. The list of editors who'd experienced the blinking ring of death continued to grow but with my console working fine I was hardly bothered by the misfortunes of everyone else.
Now that my most anticipated game of the past few years is in my hands I've started to receive game-ending dirty disc errors. I suppose these manufacturing errors are unavoidable considering the incredible complexity of the machine combined with the rush to make the "world-wide" launch. All I'm saying is that I fired up my Dreamcast this weekend and it's working just fine.
Are these errors, crashes, and general decline in reliability just something we'll have to learn to deal with as game consoles become more complex? Personally, the reason I lean towards consoles is because I'm lazy. Normally you make the purchase, plug it in, and there's nothing more to worry about.
How does this change your expectations for the PlayStation 3 or figure into Nintendo's plans?
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Hilary Goldstein, IGN Comics: The 360 sucks. I don't care about power, games, and achievement points. **** that. It seems like 2/3 of all systems bought by people in the IGN offices has broken. That sucks.
In contrast, my seven-year-old Dreamcast still works perfectly.
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Teddy Pierson, IGN Community Manager: Not to state the obvious... But MS is not really known for rock solid stability in their products. They are more for the paper ink and wow factor, hence the "world wide launch" bull that produced exactly what they wanted, shortages. Which is turn got them a lot of publicity portraying, "people killing their mothers in order to get a 360". I'm sure we can all debate what the faults are or reasons for so many 360s sinkin' in the drink. But what it comes down to is poor building standards from the Umbrella Corporation. Meaning... when Nintendo, for example, builds something... they build it to last and they make sure of it. When MS builds something, it breaks and millions of people turn into zombies.
I don't know, that's my quick and dirty comments without writing a novel...
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Scott Senkowski, IGN Design: Is this that big of a surprise? Microsoft basically took a G5, which is about the size of a car door, made it even more powerful and crammed it into a case about four apples high. Granted, this may be tall for a smurf but it's way too small for a beefed up desktop turned console.
As for the PS3, I'm guessing the same if not worse. They are rocking entirely new hardware, from the cell chip to the ?-GPU. Not to mention the addition of Blu-Ray's insanity. All this stuffed into a George Foreman Grill? Not bloody likely.
Look at this monster and it just plays Blu-Ray movies.
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Gerry Block, IGN Gear: I'm beginning to think that the reason why 360s are still hard to find at retail, even after Peter Moore promised otherwise, is the fact that MS is now replacing the majority of 360s they shipped at Christmas. Out of a pool of more than 20 360s around IGN, almost all of them have broken, right? That's not a bad sample size, and the rate of failure is staggering.
On the other hand, none of my consoles have ever lived very long. I went through 3 PS1s, 2 DreamCasts, 2 Genesises, and my second PS2 just died last week. It's not even as though I'm rough with them. Failing after a year or two is one thing, however, and failing after a month is quite another.
Microsoft will probably have a way to hide the real numbers, but their next quarterly report and annual statement may be interesting reads if they have to report excessive expenses based on 360 hardware failure. 2 million units shipped, 1 million units functionally installed? Maybe.
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Jessica Chobot, IGN Host: I am highly disappointed with my 360. Not only with the basic console functions (or lack thereof) but also their customer service help and repair centers. After my 360 took its inevitable dump, I spent countless hours trying to talk with someone who wasn't an utter jerk-off. It took 10 tries and finally a threat to get any kind of problem solving to occur.
After sending it back to be repaired the first time, I received it back...about 2 weeks later... and it was a different model and more broken than the one I had sent them originally. This meant another 2 days dealing with the help line from Marrakesh.
What can this do for the PS3 and Revolution? Well, I feel the bigger question is what can the PS3 push back launch date do for the Rev (those are the two competitors I truly follow in these console wars). I thought that Nintendo may have bagged it and inched themselves back towards the top rung of the console wars due to the PS3's mamby-pamby announcements and failed launch dates (similar to their weak sauce PSP browser, games and UMD output vs. the DS and soon-to-be DS Lite) and the 360's obvious flaws. Yet with the Rev's controller yet to be proven as "innovative" as it's being touted by the ever efficient Nintendo PR team-we'll just have to wait and see.
So, at this point, I'm still looking at the Nintendo and PS3 race as being more neck and neck with the 360 slightly ahead mostly due to Oblivion and the fact that, although broken, it has been launched
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Dan Adams, IGN PC: I love Oblivion and play it every night on my perfectly operational Xbox 360! Microsoft is my lover.
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Peer Schneider, IGN Blog Promoter: Disappointed with the 360's functions? You mean, the lack of it functioning at all, I hope. I can't say that I'm disappointed with the Xbox 360 hardware in any area -- except for reliability. Bitch about Microsoft Windows crashes all you want, but the software powering the 360 with its dashboard system is pretty awesome. But yeah, if my console is any indication, the hardware launched without enough reliability testing. Apart from occasional crashes that may or may not be software-related (Oblivion freezing up while loading, PGR crashing when exiting to the dashboard, etc.), I've seen more errors booting games on 360 than any other console. I'm on Xbox 360 #2 now, and last night the machine told me that Tomb Raider Legend isn't an Xbox 360 disc. Restarting the box fixed it, but it's still an irritating (and disconcerting) thing to see after my first one flashed the three-eyed skull.
Is that because the machine is more complex than ever? Sure. But let's not forget that the price tag also went up, the price of the games and controllers went up, and a year's worth of paid warranty coverage is now "recommended" by the manufacturer. I'm also paying for an annual gaming service and am expected to pay money for small downloads that enhance the look of my on-screen desktop. This console eats money for breakfast. If I bought a DVD player or a receiver for $500 and the thing broke on me and a few friends after three months, I'd return it to the store and get another machine altogether. With a console, you don't really have that choice. I want to play Oblivion, so I have to just take it and send my 360 off to the service center. It's the curse of being an early adopter. But the fault definitely lies with Microsoft.
I've already gone through the whole anger phase so I'm pretty mellow about my hardware experience with 360 right now. My first PlayStation 2 was busted on day 1 -- luckily I was able to get another one from the store that same day. If my friend wasn't studying for an exam, I'd be screwed without my 360 right now, though. Out of my classic consoles, the only one that broke was my Super Famicom -- but that's because Fran borrowed it for a week. He must've showered with it, or something. The only other machine to break on me was, brace yourself, the original Xbox. That first-gen $#@% Thomson drive decided to not read some of the later game discs. I firmly believe that MS should've recalled the units or at least offered free service.
I do think that Sony could face similar issues since its console also uses all-new and unproven drive technology and high-powered (that means hot) chips. But when it comes down to it, Sony is a bit more experienced, being a longtime hardware manufacturer. And let it be known: when my Sony Vaio computer started to smoke one day, it took Sony four days to replace it. And they sent me a free Sony Clie (hey Jess, there is that crazy thing again!) to make up for the problems. So, Microsoft: how about a free copy of Halo 3? Or maybe some free horse armor?
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Jeremy Dunham, IGN PlayStation: Outside of one freezing glitch that I got once while playing Condemned, I haven't had any problems.
But that could be contributed to my conspiracy theory that it's just a ploy by Microsoft to win me over since I run the PlayStation sites.
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Hilary Goldstein, IGN Comics: The loading errors are an easy fix, Peer. Eject the disc, blow on it a few times, reinsert and hit power. Should work 22% of the time.
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John Miller, IGN Xbox, Xbox 360: Not only am I wary of MS's claim that the 360 problems are well within the "three to five" percent defect range, typical of consumer electronics -- I think it's a downright lie. As we move forward, console reliability should actually increase -- or at least stay the same -- not regress. We've had some kind of problem with every 360 in the office, be it a simple disc-read error or occasional freeze or even the downright system failure. I love the system when it works, but as a consumer, MS has made me want to wait for Nintendo and Sony to release their new consoles to make an educated purchase. Heck, MLB 2K6 doesn't even work on the system -- how the hell did that slip past the rigorous product testing MS supposedly puts games through. If it wasn't for Burnout, I would rather play Fantasy Baseball and watch Deal or No Deal than play the 360.
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Stephen NG, IGN FAQs: Jess-IGN posted:
I am highly disappointed with ... basic ... functions ... and ... I spent countless hours trying to ... jerk-off. It took 10 tries and finally ... "... to" ... get any ... After ... the first time, I received it ... and ... I ... originally ... meant ... I feel the bigger ... competitors ... bagged it and inched themselves ... towards the top. Yet ... I'm still looking at ... more neck...
Madlibs are awesome.
The Xbox 360's high heat may be part of the problem. Heat makes physical changes and I suspect it may do things to the soldering and any other delicate connections in the deck. Here's an idea -- how about keeping the whole unit cool throughout the session with a simple fan over the 360's uncovered guts? A potentially low-tech and simple solution.
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Erik Brudvig, IGN Guides: My 360 at home is doing just fine, though the one I've been playing constantly at work is having problems. I'm not sure if they're problems from Oblivion slowly bugging out or if it is hardware related. Either way, it is frustrating and one of the machines scratched my copy of GRAW so much that it's unplayable. I'd definitely recommend the extended warranty to people looking to purchase a 360, but I wouldn't tell anyone to stay away from it. Oblivion is simply too good to pass up and there is plenty of promising software that should be out by the time I'm done playing it sometime next year.
Just in case, though, I've made a custom faceplate for my 360. This way, if it does die, I'll have something good to attach to the front while I wait for it to go through any necessary maintenance.
The questions of reliability probably won't help Microsoft in Japan, but as long as they have things hammered out by this fall, I don't think this will hurt the Xbox 360 in the long run. The PS3 is going to have similar problems, though maybe not at this magnitude, and is surely going to have even more severe shortage problems this holiday season.
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Doug Perry, IGN Xbox, Xbox 360: People like to bitch, and Microsoft is giving them good reasons to complain. But despite broken machines, which can be replaced by MS, the buzz around this office when Fight Night Round 3, Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter and Oblivion came out have been palpable. Most everyone, despite their misery, has been playing 360 games.
I have had some heated discussions with Microsoft about the reliability of their systems, and they say the percentage of broken 360 issues is well within the percentages for consumer products of this kind, 3% to 5%. I say BS. I personally can't remember another system that had so many broken systems, operating issues, or even disc scratches. However, they also added, on the record, that they expect Sony to have similar if not bigger issues with the PS3s when they ship all 6 million of them this Fall.
The first round of PS2s broke badly too. Even the PS1 had serious issues. Sony handled its hardware problems differently. They just deny them. That somehow makes the issue less awful. Microsoft admits them and tries, however embarrassingly, to fix them. So the perception is that their systems are inferior. I find this interesting.
Anyway, my 360 hasn't busted yet. But I expect it to any day now. Seems like it's happened to about 50% of the office. Maybe somebody can post the Microsoft address here for any potential broken system owners.
Dave @ Apr 21st 2006 10:59AM
I cannot freaing believe how many people are posting here without:
A. Reading the actual post.
B. Understanding the actual process.
C. Reading ANY of the informative posts (like Bandit's).
You fanboys are absolute morons. Seriously.
Black Guy @ Apr 21st 2006 11:00AM
iSwear the ignorance of some of the commentors here is laughable. iHope the sorry ass haters r j/k and don't seriously believe what they wrote. The headline of this post is misleading, but if dumbasses would READ, they'll c that is nothing more than a change in the manufacturing process NOT an upgrade. Genesis, SNES, Sega CD, Saturn, PS1, and most recently the PS2 all underwent similar evelutions which in many cases, resulted in a reduction of the unit size and/or costs of manufacturing. Why is it so different w/ X360?
Well known heat issues my ass. A minority - w/ the aid of any notable news starved media - had some problems which somehow became sufficient proof of a heat issue. Please. Come on fags, pull your head out of asses.
The stupidity of some can be so un-fuck'n-believable. Yes bitch. If u read this and posted some bullshit heretofore (or hereafter), I'm talking about u.
HEPCECOB @ Apr 21st 2006 11:01AM
Let me first say that I'm a pc gamer. I have no consoles other than a Dreamcast. Pc gaming and console gaming, in my opinion, are two different things. The point of a console is a cheap solution for the consumer to play games. You just go into the store pick it up and you're good to go for years. What Microsoft is doing with all these extra "upgrades" is creating a mouseless computer that can only play games. The whole point of a console is so you DON'T need to learn about the machine, what's better what's worse, just consetrate on the games. Now they're just giving the consumer a big headache.
Baxter Madu @ Apr 21st 2006 11:03AM
As folks have said, this is no different than when the Sony single-chipped the internals of the PS2 in 2003 to save money on the manufacturing, reduce heat, etc.
f***ing fanboys...
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=9070
Black Guy @ Apr 21st 2006 11:04AM
Mikes Jones -
Man r u stupid? What the hell is that long ass post doing here? Post a link next time u idiot!
Owns @ Apr 21st 2006 11:06AM
Overheating...pshaw.
I've had my xbox 360 since day one and I've played the HELL out of it.
How many time has it "overheated"? 0.
How many times have I had it lock up? Twice, but that was due to game bugs, NOT a hardware issue.
embassy @ Apr 21st 2006 11:06AM
so wait wait...all u people are complaining cuz they're making the cpu physically smaller..??..yet it doesnt effect gameplay or price..???..wat are yall compalining about...?? are u just talking shit cuz u saw " XBOX CPU UGRADE" and didnt even bother to read the article..??...this is rather pathetic of you... i hate the word " fanboy" but really..this is sad...grow up...
ncxcstud @ Apr 21st 2006 11:09AM
I'm sorry...did anyone actually read this article? Its not an upgrade per-say. Its a re-thinking of the system design.
How many DIFFERENT versions of the PS2, SNES, PS1, XBOX, etc... are out there. I'm not talking about PS2 and the Slimline. I'm talking about v1 and v2, v3 and so on. Every new version was made a bit differently. Whether it be a new DVD drive, put in a new cooler, etc.. EVERY CONSOLE GOES THROUGH THIS.
This isn't an upgrade that'll leave us early adopters on the way side. Its not going to make the system more powerful. It makes it more efficient. EVERY console has seen an internal change from the launch system, etc.
So, all you PS2 fanboys out there seriously think that your Dirty disk errors were just magically fixed by a 'patch'? No, they redesigned the internal workings of the PS2 to fix the problem.
Tatsuya @ Apr 21st 2006 11:12AM
To DG:
MS is going to change the way the cpu is manufactured, it still will be the same but smaller. Where is the compatibility issue here ? Do you really think they'd take such a risk.
I think people here are just waiting every article just to find a reason to whine.
Thomas Crymes @ Apr 21st 2006 11:16AM
This happens to just about all consoles out there. They find better processes and they adapt their products accordingly.
This is not an upgrade. Joystiq should alter the title or post why they believe this is an upgrade. Performance is not changing. If heat is currently causing your 360 to lock up, then call MS and get a new one sent to you. Otherwise, merely reducing the heat coming from the system does not constitute an upgrade. What it might do is reduce the number of systems that crash because of heat issues.
Clearly they are currently not getting acceptable yields.
Sloopydrew @ Apr 21st 2006 11:27AM
"Well known heat issues my ass. A minority - w/ the aid of any notable news starved media - had some problems which somehow became sufficient proof of a heat issue."
I have had 2 360's break due to these heat issues you are claiming is a non-issue. If you go to the Xbox forums, you'll see one person after another having to send their 360 in to MS, after receiving the form-fitting "white coffin" for their console. The over-heating seems to be a major issue to me and I'm happy MS is addressing it in at least this limited form. I only hope people who have reported issues with overheating on their registered consoles, such as myself, will be able to trade in the older models for the updated versions. Even if the only update is something that helps cool the machine down.
D dogg @ Apr 21st 2006 11:29AM
First off, I'd wager that half the people with overheating problems still put their consolses in some form of a cubby hole without proper ventalation in the rear.
Secondly, I'd like to say that while this isn't an upgrade to the actual entertainment value of the 360, it is value to a person who pays for electricity over time.
Lastly, someone made a good comment about why console company's report these things to consumers. They don't, the report them to investors. The rabid (please understand the emphasis behind the word rabid) state that most gamers have become (even journalists) makes anything with the words "Xbox", "360", "Playstation", "PS3", "Nintendo", "Revolution" and others automatically newsworthy... even though it may not mean shit to consumers because it's not game related.
Scooby Doo @ Apr 21st 2006 11:33AM
If I think of this issue the same way I think of a PC, it is a little disconcerting to me. Anyone who has had to put fans in their server room or had to put extra cooling in their desktop PC understands that chips don't function as well when they're hot. I don't hold a degree in Electronic Engineering but couldn't this create a situtation where a game may run better or more stable if you have the 65nm core instead of the current 90nm one?
One could try and put a good spin on this thinking that moving to a newer CPU will allow them to make the physical size of the 360 smaller, but you have to wonder if that was Microsoft's intention. The PC world revolves around open architecture and the ability to replace old components with better ones, but the console market isn't one where we like seeing any upgrades, system redesigns are a different story but you've always been able to play any game on the old or new system. If this move actually changes the experience of a game (less crashes, better framerate, less slowdown, etc.) from the old 360 to the new one, it's setting a bad precedence for our industry.
Sloopydrew @ Apr 21st 2006 11:36AM
"Performance is not changing."
The link I initially sent in to Joystiq mentioned that the upgrade could potentially make the CPU faster. It was speculative, but it definitely didn't rule out an upgrade in performance. Obviously it wouldn't be a very big upgrade, as all 360s across the board would have to play the same games, but there may be less lagtime or other benefits with the new CPU. Again, that seemed speculative, but the article didn't rule it out.
aDub @ Apr 21st 2006 11:39AM
I think I got the whole fanboy thing figured out.
Here goes... since they are fans of consoles that are either outdated or not yet available, they spend their time finding ways to reduce their jealousy towards the 360. Not to mention they are upset to have to start saving their allowances (sorry, couldn't help myself) for the next generation of their favorite brand. So needless to say they have a chip on their shoulder.
I know I am satisified with my 360, and am not dissapointed with any of the 15 titles I have in my collection, and I'm not alone since my friends who own 360's feel the same way about theirs.
Fanboy's need to stop sippin' on the hater-aid and grow up...
BTW I own a DS with a dozen games and never play it. You know now that I'm thinking about it I feel betrayed by Nintendo because they have released the DS Lite so soon... Why couldn't my DS be smaller and brighter? Why hasn't Nintendo offered me a discount to upgrade? I smell a class action suit...
Sorry for the ramble but I had to vent.
*EQUIPS ANTI-FLAME SUIT*
KDub2 @ Apr 21st 2006 11:39AM
Why even try to explain to these dullards. Anyone that says that they aren't going to buy a 360 because of this obviously was not going to buy one in the first place. Their loss.
Jeremy @ Apr 21st 2006 11:44AM
HEY how about instead of worrying how the CPU will be updated they put some GAMES on the market. Everyone I have talked to says that the Madden, PD0, Gotham Racing, and Kameo are garbage. And what is up with the pricing still $59.99??? This is where Nintendo will win this round. The industry is making the mistake of assuming every gamer is in the 25 - 28 demograpic with TONS of disposable income... If that were the case the 360 would be successful. M$ put out a less than production ready unit to make money from early adopters. Also, if that were the case we wouldn't be complaining about the "price" of the PS3. It's time we start making the industry work for us instead of working us over.
Jau_Peacecraft @ Apr 21st 2006 11:48AM
waah
dsub @ Apr 21st 2006 11:55AM
this is no different than the PS2 slim system.
After a while it technology changes and along come ways to make the same system run more efficiently (either through smaller size or less power consumption) and companies change the system. The switch to the 65nm process means nothing, it is the same CPU, it's just smaller. Anyone that takes this as you having to have the new 65nm CPU to play 360 games is a complete IDIOT. The funny thing is, microsoft could have not said anything about this, and all of you would still want a 360, they could have just pulled the switch on the cpu and no one would know until the mod-community picked one up and opened it up.
Every 360 does not overheat. Mine has been fine since day 1. If it does...MS has extended the warranty on them to 6 months just in case. MS isn't sony, they won't leave you fucked over with an expired 30 day warranty and make you pay for repairs.
dsub @ Apr 21st 2006 12:01PM
aDub...I totally agree. The 360 has been great, and all my friends with the console would also agree. I love the DS comment though. That is exactly what is going on here. Hell, nintendo pumped out how many generations of the GBA? Original GBA, GBASP, GBASP w/brighter screen, GB Micro...
360 gets one slight change in the CPU manufacturing process, and once again, everyone's on the whole "MS is the corporate enemy trying to ruin gaming" trip. Ridiculous.
zero2dash @ Apr 21st 2006 12:02PM
That's what you get for buying a launch console.
MaX PL and the 360 r4pe Tr4iN @ Apr 21st 2006 12:05PM
ive had my 360 since novemeber 16th and its yet to crash.
brad77 @ Apr 21st 2006 12:23PM
The reality-distortion field is in full effect here. Manufacturers revise their hardware all the time, mostly to cut costs, but sometimes to address minor issues. Sometimes one happens as a result of the other. This is not uncommon:
Xbox 1: 8 versions (1.0, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, 1.6a)
PS1: At least 7 major revisions (SCPH 100x old and new, 550x, 700x, 750x, 900x, 1000x PSone)
PS2: 14 versions (V1-V14)
Microsoft isn't doing anything new here. In fact, according to Wikipedia's PlayStation entry, the first revision of the PS1 "produced in response to complaints that PlayStations were overheating."
How quickly we forget our history. Expect the PS3 to go through the same revisioning process as all consoles in years past, quirks and all.
Thomas Crymes @ Apr 21st 2006 12:25PM
Speculation is worse than rumor. At least rumor could, in theory, lead back to a source. Speculation is for situations that have no concrete answers. There is no need to speculate on an upgrade, because that information is knowable.
I can speculate about anything. Fact is, if they change their chip design in any way, it could spell problems for current compatability.
No console manufacturer has done this. MS would not risk it. Their current configuration is delivering the power they want, just probably with a higher heat output than they desire.
Just use business sense, logic, and common sense. MS would not create an upgrade unless all users could take advantage of it. Why would they just up and anger all of their early adopters like that, and only after one year. And that won't happen because we all know how popular the sega CD and 32X were.
Just use your noodle people.
Colin @ Apr 21st 2006 12:25PM
This is no different than the vast amount of revisions in previous consoles, (xbox, PSx, PS2, Gamcube etc) I was planing on waiting for a very late revision, like I told my girlfriend "I'm not buying a 360 until Halo 3 or Forza 2 comes out"...
Staticneuron @ Apr 21st 2006 12:26PM
Everyone is an "ignorant", "stupid", "insert flame here" Fanboy as soon as something negative is said about a game console. I am going out on the limb here because I love all game systems but am not afraid to speak my mind.
360: Has a crap gamelist (IMO only good game is GRAW) and everyone who says that the 360 has good games as of now either have bad taste in games or are retarted. For the PS3: Sony has yet to deliver or show anything worthwhile. Please, sony fanboy's stay quiet until you actually have ammunition to use. Revolution: Nintendo has yet to deliver or show anything worthwhile. Please, Nintendo fanboy's stay quiet until you actually have ammunition to use.
There you have it! The only system on the market is weaksauce as of now (with the possibility of becomming truely great). The PS3 is not in sight yet, but is hated by those who hate sony and anticipated by those who enjoyed PS1 and PS2 games. The revolution is also not here yet but tickles the fancy of those who want to use a new controller and want to play new versions of the old Nintendo classics. I love Nintendo but the truth is, the gamecube game line-up sucks.
As far as I am concerned dropping the price or changing the design equals nothing to me. All three companies better step up to the bat and deliver some great gaming experiences.
Black Guy @ Apr 21st 2006 12:33PM
Sloopy Drew -
Thats unfortunate for u and others, but that just how things r. Electronics fail. iWent through 2 genesis, a dreamcast, and my Xbox ate shit. Do iThink its a fault in design? Of course not. Millions of others didn't have same experience so obviously its was an isolated case. These things happen. There will always b a % of anything manufactured that will have some form of a defect.
iHave an X360 and ran that thing 4 hours. Has it overheated? Nope. The forums and u'rself r NOT representative of the hardware issues - if any - experienced by the general install base.
epobirs @ Apr 21st 2006 12:48PM
Those who were paying attention then and have longer memories know that the PS2 saw a major manufacturing upgrade before the US launch.
The PS2 chipset was designed with .18 micron production in mind. The problem was that nobody on the entire planet was yet in volume manufacturing at the time Sony needed to start rolling out the boards. Even Intel, the long time market leader for moving to smaller process nodes, was just ramping up their first .18 micron plant.
The PS2 chipset alrady existed in .25 micron, primarily for engineering samples and developer kits. Microprocessor Report described the die size of the chips as being so large they'd make a "PC engineer break out in a cold sweat." The chips were big, hot, expensive, and had lousy yields. But they worked as a proof of the design.
So when the time came and the intended .18 line was nowhere near ready, Sony had to use .25 chips for the Japanese launch. (These machines also had the ill-considered PCMCIA Type III slot for adding a hard drive that ended up being used with an external 3.5" drive due to cost.) Those early Japanese machines had terrible reliability issues that manifested for a lot of US magazines because they'd imported units at the first opportunity. When the actual US launch came the .18 chipsets made for much more reliable machines. The eventual slimline version of the PS2 came after reducing the chipset to the 90 nanometer process node, integrating the EE and GS, and making the power supply external on the new machine while giving up IDE hard drive support. (Yes, I know about the hacks. Sony doesn't support them, so they only matter for a tiny minority.)
If you look back at months old discussions, it was known that 65 nm was on the horizon for Intel and others as the Xbox 360 was readying for launch. That the 360's chipset would eventually move to that manufacturing level was inevitable. Since a console requires performance to remain consistent, unit #10,000,000 must behave identically to unit #10 for developers to treat them all as a single unvarying platform, the changes to the chipset would be focused solely on reduced cost by virtue of the smaller die and improved yields. Reductions in power drawn and heat expressed add to the reliability potential and possible smaller consoles in the future.
The Xbox 360 chipset, as well as the PS3 and Revolution's, are aimed at 90 nm production. The PS3, being very ambitious on performance, will be headed to 65 nm ASAP as well. Down the road there are also 54 nm and 32 nm process nodes in development. Both machines will see at least one of those as well in their lifetimes if they're at all successful. The original Xbox would have at least gone to .13 micron if Microsoft had been better in control of the chipset. Intel already had .13 P-III cores that could be underclocked for an extremely low power and low heat solution. It came down to the problems with Nvidia and tat company's unwillingness to pursue manufacturing upgrades for a product that they felt wasn't sufficiently profitable for them.
On the subject of overheating Xbox 360s, there is another issue aside from the chipset itself that can be major problem. Several 360s were opened up and examined internally after being found to overheat easily. At first, some thought the foil they found was a shipping cover that should have been removed at the factory during assembly and that it was the cause of the problem. This was a mistake by people unaware that many systems use a similar arrangement. But since then it has been noticed that the arrangement at the point of heat sink attachment has changed a bit and may account for imporoved reliability in later production.
Such is the price of being an early adopter. Most of my consoles are launch units and have held up well. But I did have to get a warranty trade-in on a very early Atari Jaguar due to a chipset bug that made Doom unplayable. Overall, I've been lucky. If I wasn't willing to take the risk I'd hold back on any major new hardware purchase until its issues had long been determined in mass production and the price perhaps less as well. But what is the fun in that? The only thing that has kept me from getting an Xbox 360 immediately is my schedule has left me far, far behind in playing the big pile of games I already have. Unless it were job related, I cannot see the point of buying a new console in addition to what I already have until I have the time to really enjoy it.
LunarDuality @ Apr 21st 2006 12:50PM
@ blzeebub
Well...I guess I got a little confused when Fan forgot to add "-DVD" after HD. Agreed. But he still mentions (once by proxy) the HDD twice. And honestly, the HD-DVD drive is only for those that are interested in early-adopting a new optical media. I, personally, am not at *all* interested in doing that and so it's not something "that really makes the 360 a good next gen console" for me.
@ brad77
Thank you, thank you, thank you for a such a great post. Now if only people would read it, they might learn something!
@ zero2dash
Exactly. This is what some of us get for wanting to get a console on launch day. Invariably there are issues that are ironed out as the manufacturing gets better, but some of us just had to have it right away, so we took the plunge. Some will be disappointed by the revisions (not upgrades really) but as long as my 360 plays the games I want (and it does in spades) then I'm happy. And as others have said, it'll be the same for the PS3 and the Revolution and probably every other console ever made.
After reading all the comments I'm realizing that most of this is just a classic case of F.U.D. There are obviously a *very* vocal minority with heat/crashing issues and that sucks. I'm sorry all of you had that happen...but you have to accept a little bit of that as a risk of being an early adopter of *any* piece of electronics. Hopefully you will all soon have a console that meets your expectations in terms of stability.
The other thing that no one can account for with the overheating issues is the console placement in each situation, like stated above. 360 + closed environs/carpet = problem. I have my power brick in a separate "cubby", away from the 360 (just for convenience mind you) and I have had 2 software lockups and that is it and I play everyday (sometimes for 5-6 hours).
The only other thing I want to say is that clearly, MS made a mistake allowing this info out into the public forum at this point. It was clearly just too soon for people to accept. They should've just "flipped the switch" and told us afterwards. That's my 2 cents anyway.
Scooby Doo @ Apr 21st 2006 1:11PM
Yeah!! I was waiting for Epobirs to chime in. You always give really good information in your posts. So help me out, if you can. I'm actually on the fence somewhat over whether to buy a 360. There are an awful lot of buying priorities in my life, so I'm just trying to figure out where to put a 360 on my list.
You're earlier post seems to indicate that when Sony was finally able to manufacture the '.18 micron' units, the systems showed an improvement in stability over their .25 micron counterparts. We both know that there's so much more involved in a 'stable' system than just the CPU, so I'm not going to ask you to give an opinion on if you think the new 360 WILL be more stable. I just wouldn't do that to you.
However, do you think that the 360's 65nm chip will run cooler than the 90nm one? I'm mostly just trying to understand the POTENTIAL technical implications of this change so I can make my own informed decisions.
The1 @ Apr 21st 2006 1:24PM
These SONY fanboys aided by JOYSTIQ clever wording of a topic really makes me think these people are some of the most STUPID people on the face of the earth. Will you all ever use common sense?