Free expression isn't always a good thing

What's the big deal? I think the odds of someone being truly offended by a 32x32 image in a game are pretty low. Furthermore, once you start regulating this one area of freedom, you start to become like those represented by that emblem.

Free expression is always a good thing, even if you don't agree with the message.

What's the big deal??? I think if you're not offended by a freakin' swastika, then you're a piece of shit. Period. Anyone that puts a swastika up should be fucking shot.

I imagine a casual gamer who saw that would do what any person would do if they saw someone walk by with one on their armband: roll their eyes, think nasty thoughts, and move on. I consider it beyond doubtful that someone would see that and suddenly dismiss gamers as Nazis. Let's try not to be paranoid...

I think people are more likely to be offended by voice chat than a little picture (whether its Live's chat or Metroid Prime: Hunter's walkie-talkies). We've all seen the horendous videos of teenagers screaming and cursing and flipping out at the game. That's more likely to turn people off than some moron using Mario Kart to get attention. Heck, I'm a gamer and I'm turned off by the voice chat kid!

It's easy to dissmiss something like the Swastika. We know there are idiotic morons in the world who consider that kind of thing either amusing or (unfortunately) cool. We see it in all walks of life occassionally. It's the rudeness and general vulgarity of some people that is more likely to turn people off.

It was only a matter of time before some idiot made such an icon. Glad we can not chat with such players online with Mario Kart DS.

it may be a big deal if your grand parents got gassed by them nazis

with freedom comes responsibility

this AC:WW town is far more offensive.


http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/6290/offensiveanimalcrossing9ck.jpg

I always view free expression as always a good thing, espically when I see what it would be like without it.

Now here is what I would do if I came across an image that I got offended by in this game.

Leave the game, go play another one.

OMG WHAT A NOVEL IDEA! It's pure genius yet simple! Now if only everyone else could do that.

What's the downside here? Someone can make an image that you don't like?

Using a swastika is not a sign of (im)maturity at all. It could be, but it also may be this person's way of making a political statement.

I hate Nazi's as much as the next guy but seriously, as NT said above, it's a matter of free speech.

What if the 'reaction of a casual gamer picking up the DS for the first time' is 'cool - another nazi! glad i'm not the only one!'

Just a matter of perspective.

im not even offended, that's just lame (my eyes rolled). This is probably some 11 year old child that drinks too much fruit punch and doesn't know a damn thing about world history. He most likely has self esteem issues, and im sure he would have loved wolfenstein-3D if he hadn’t been wearing diapers when it came out.

Sorry, but I don't agree with you. Free expression IS always a good thing.

One of the people I raced against once had a topless Charisma Carpenter. Yeah, believe it or not he managed to fit a pretty decent picture of her in that little space. He must have cut a bit from one of the photos in her Playboy shoot and used a program to convert.

That shape/image has a history going back long before its deplorable use by the German national socialists. While I have no doubt in this particular instance, with the red border, that the bearer was actually depicting the Nazi symbol, from the many pictures I've see recently there are a number of grade school childen in Japan who wear Nazi emblems openly. There's also a weird fascination with Nazi type themed restaurants and bars there.

Like it or not, the political correctness that seems to have overrun the U.S.A.'s sense of reality isn't shared the world over.

Kids everywhere are going to wear offensive stuff, pierce various body parts, tattoo things on themselves that they'll regret later, and pretty much do the same thing as all the other kids in the name of "individuality" just to be the same as all the other kids.

Back in my day (I never actually thought I'd say that!) it was a single ear piercing, hand-lettered Sex Pistols shirts, weird haircuts and a punk attitude. Now that's not only passe, I'd look like a complete imbecile in that get up at my age.

Get over the symbol thing. There's far more important things to worry about in life then some kid's plea for attention.

GlitchCog is right. Free expression is important. If you find the images or messages disturbing then you should leave. As to this image in particular, it should be offensive to everyone. If it isn't then perhaps you need to relearn your history. There is absolutely nothing benign about what the Swastika represents. It is a shame that a formerly peaceful symbol has been brought to that level, but the fact is that it has.

By the way, Scott over at VG Cats did a comic on this subject a few months back....pretty apt.

http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=173

If you want to have a swastika as your in game icon it's your right. I'm not saying I would do it, but restricting freedom is a slippery slope.

Ironically, stopping people being able to use a swastika in a game is an *incredibly* fascist thing to do.

Ian

Play Mario Kart against a nazi just makes me want to win even more. I hate nazi's but I have to admit the ability to create your own icon in Mario Kart is still sweet.

Nintendo even warns the gamers (if not in the game but at least in the manuel) that people may put up offensive emblems and/or offensive user names. big deal. you can still quit before the first race and it won't count against you.

for a while i was known as IhateSnakers with an emblem saying "Snakers Can't Race" it was fun for a while. i still can't figure that out.

It's either a joke (look at their name) or, like Mike said above, is an 11 year old kid who is just trying to be "bad-ass". Free expression is always good. If you disagree, read 1984. Anybody wanting to make a statement or really offend people would find a better way to do it than via Mario Kart or AC:WW.

I understand what people are saying about freedom of expression. However, in a public forum (such as a game played in a communal space or with other people) there should be certain level of decorum and a general understanding that you can enter said situation without being bombarded with someone's agenda (be it offensive or not) so that you can enjoy the game. And you should definitely not have to deal with an agenda of hate. I'd like to be able to game without having to *ever* think about being forced to look at someone's swastika, gentials, or anything of the like.

That's why I don't mind the gamerpics for the 360 (and also why user created gamerpics will probably never happen). It allows me choice, but without allowing people to plaster their hate messages all over the place.

If this gamer wants to create his own webpage with swastikas and everything, fine, I won't go to it. But with a game where I don't always have (or want) to specifically screen and choose my opponents I should be able to enjoy a game without this kind of thing. I'm all for free speech, believe me, but I don't think a game should give a gamer the ability to spread an agenda...it should only be about providing an enjoyable time for all. (And yes, I hate those foul mouthed kids on Live too and choose to use the feedback system to let MS know how I feel.)

Whether someone is offended or not is moot.

Offense is not given. It is taken. And it is one of the unfortunate inevitabilities of a free society. SOMEONE is going to get offended more often than not.

Therefore, another phenomenon appears in free societies. We learn to excercise our choice to ignore, leave, criticize, and/or protest.

Assholes have the right to say anything they want. Different assholes have the right to cpmplain about it.

Either way, we all stink.

this is why the idea for the groups within xbox live is a good one, if only it were possible to enforce them a bit better. that way parents could assign a simple group to their child, and it turns things like this off, along with features like voice chat.

some people don't want to be harassed about certain things. it's easy enough to just leave from a game a few times, but if it starts happening every other time, then people just give up on it entirely and has the entire experience ruined. there are lots of gay people who get tired of the constant barrage of 'fag' and 'that's gay'. some women have the same problem with getting hit on or joked about the entire time.

some of these people might otherwise be enjoyable gaming partners for other people, but once they've become burnt-out on the behaviour, they'll usually play with only friends stop playing online entirely.

as i said, MS has tried to remedy this problem, but so far it hasn't been so successful. they don't guarantee that you're going to be assigned to only people within those groups, and since it's possible for friends in other groups to join those games, it becomes unenforceable. you can set yourself to family, but you're still going to hear 'fuck you faggot' and whatever other sorts of unimaginative phrases.

thankfully, i haven't ended up in too many xboxlive matches where the people have been obnoxious. a surprising number don't even seem to use their headsets.

Okay, never seen anything quite like that while playing Mario Kart, though I did once see someone whose icon was a hand flipping the bird. It doesn't bother me per se, though I wouldn't want a young child seeing that.

Before we go on about free expression, we're talking about a private company possibly restricting what can happen on their property (in this case, their servers). Should Nintendo (or Microsoft, or any other company) decide to take action against people who display such images, it's well within their right. In fact, it might be advisable to do so for liability reasons.

Free expression may always be a good thing, but free expression is much more limited than most think.

Now kids, just remember the sage words of Adolf Hitler:

For teh wiN!

Seriously, shooting everyone who makes use of a swastika (which when not surrounded by the red is actually an emblem far older than the Nazi's timothy) is about as close to their lamentable methods as you can get.

So wait, this means it's timothy's swastika?

Since Nintendo owns the WiFi servers etc. you have NO rights actually. They can moderate as they see fit. They dont need to be consistent or even explain anything. If you dont like it then boo hoo, go play psp.

This is no more offensive than hopping into a game of Counter-Strike and seeing people spray-painting porno all over the walls. (Though I guess in some instances that's welcomed and not offensive---I mean---shit, I-...)

I'm surprised by the number of negative responses to the article.

I'm in an art school where freedom of expression reign. Still, there are things called taboos. Using taboos can damage your image, and in this article's case, a whole community's image.

Some argue that casual gamers will shrug this off, but what about parents of younger gamers? What if you're a parent and you saw your children playing a game full of Nazi influences when you clearly bought a racing game with Mario in it?

Another suggestion was that if the game is offensive, turn it off and play another one. That is a ridiculous idea. You pay hard-earned money to be offended and to move on? This is not how the market works!

It's a shame that there's little respect for other gamers online. The gamers that use the swastika and other imagery that's innapropriate for games need to go to an appropriate outlet, which isn't in online gaming communities.

It's only a matter of time till these avatars are disabled or are regularly deleted, unless the gamers start getting mature. I have a deep feeling that maturity is last thing on their minds.

Yes, it is very offensive, but representing gamers as a whole...you condemn others for generalizing and there you go and do it. It's offensive and I would rather not encounter people with such little regard for others so I hop onto Xbox LIVE and when I encounter said idiot I submit a player review and report him since his symbol is against the TOU.

I'm not sure if Nintendo WiFi has such a system but this just goes to show you why it needs to be in place!

@Pal

I couldn't disagree more.

"It's only a matter of time till these avatars are disabled or are regularly deleted, unless the gamers start getting mature."

It's not necessarily the poster that needs to get more mature.

Yes...it takes maturity to not post images whos SOUL purpose is to get attention through shock.

But it takes just as much maturity to NOT LET IT GET TO YOU.

As such, it's not the images and the kids posting them that will get images banned. It's the REACTION TO THEM that will achieve that.

Cries of censorship get works censored. Not the works themselves.

Always preserve the Freedom of expression and the 1st ammendment. If a swastika offends you, grow up.

Always preserve the Freedom of expression and the 1st amendment. If a swastika offends you, grow up.

A soldier has died tonight so that freedoms such as speech may be preserved. The least you could do is exercise it.

Immature, maybe hateful? Yes, but some people are. Truth of the matter is, if they don't mature at some point, they will only hold themselves back in life and in the workplace, but it is not the job of censorship to enforce that and affect everyone else for the sake of a few people. Darwin's Law should reign (Self-Freedom, do not interfere with others.

~HotShotX

"What if the 'reaction of a casual gamer picking up the DS for the first time' is 'cool - another nazi! glad i'm not the only one!'"

Then we live in a bad, bad world.

I'm all for free expression. But as someone else said, with freedom comes responsibility. It's just like when your parents leave out the cookie jar when you're a kid and then you eat all the cookies and then your parents hide the cookie jar from then on so you can't eat them anymore. Well, you know what? That's your fault. You ate the damn cookies. Nobody made you do it. Just because the jar was there didn't mean it was a good idea to eat everything in it.

People need to use some judgement. To quote George Costanza, "we're living in a society here!" Restricting speech is a slippery slope, yes, but you know what? So is putting up an icon that you KNOW is going to offend people. You're purposely provoking someone. You're asking for a response. And that response could be anything from a verbal telling-off to a nutjob who tracks you down and shows up at your house one night with a baseball bat, or worse. There's just no reason to act this way.

If your "political views" involve the killing of millions of people because of their religious views, then you need to think long and hard about your life, and you need to be careful what you say to others. There is this thing called "self control". That is the bottom line.

Like anything else, if you abuse free speech, it will be taken away from you. Freedom of speech was meant to promote serious discourse and an open exchange of ideas. With that also comes some undesirable speech; that's unavoidable and we all accept that. But the fact of the matter is what we have in this country is not a god-given right, and many, many successful first-world countries do restrict political speech - including Japan, Germany, France, China and others. Guys like this idiot in Mario Kart are the reason why. If you don't want your speech restricted, then you need to act responsibly.

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
~Voltaire

The best solution in this situation is to give the gamer an option to turn in-games icons off.

Censorship is not the answer.

If you take offense where offense is not intended, you're a fool.

If you take offense where offense IS intended.......you're a fool.

Jesus... what a lot of Xbox Fanboy Nerds without a social life here. Get a nazi tatoo and go to police dpto and you will know what is free expression.

#7 O&A Party Rock!

The Nazis lost. Got their asses kicked and their army taken away. Anyone silly enough to still flaunt that emblem is supporting a group that was a failure. What they did offends me, but it's someone's right to wear or design an emblem like this. Just take solace in the fact that they think they're "cool" when in fact they are supporting a losing cause.

Oh, and rumor is Hitler only had one ball.

"It could be reflective of the maturity of this one gamer, or of gamers in general, but it doesn't represent us well"

There are idiots and racists in every community, not just the gaming community. There are still Nazi parades across the country. Last I checked, they didn't broadcast them on any video game console. But they did take place in New York City.

Did the marchers represent the majority of New Yorkers? Of course not. Does this dweeb with a swastika as his gamerpic represent the majority of gamers? No.

Free speech isn't always meant to be easy, and, ironically, it rarely comes without a price. Still, it's the greatest concept known to man, imho.

If I ran across a gamer with a swastika as their symbol, I'd simply disconnect and enter a different game. It really is that simple. If you were required to play with the wanna-be Nazi, that would be an entirely different story.

Last I checked, Nintendo, MS and Sony didn't penalize you for choosing to get out of the swimming pool when the Nazi urinates in the shallow end.

I'm sure people can move past seeing a swastika (as offensive as it is), a drawing of a penis or even Janet Jackson's nipple. If they can't, free speech and free expression will become a thing of the past.

"Free expression isn't always a good thing" is the kind of thoughts that the people who wore that symbol you despise in the post had in the first place.

Quite simply, no swastika ever killed anybody. Nazism was an evil idea no matter what symbol was on the banners.

Drawing a swastika as your avatar is consistent with being an asshole. Banning political symbols because you disagree with them is consistent with being a Nazi.

YEAH what are we thinking??!?! We need to bring up our youth understanding that they can't really say what they want. They need to learn to censor themselves so they can grow up in a country that talks about free speech but doesn't truly believe in it.

Teach our youth to give up their civil liberties FTW!

So you display this guy's icon and give him/her the attention they were seeking? Wouldn't it make more sense to just ignore it?

i think some of you don't understand what exactly 'freedom of speech' and 'freedom of expression' mean in terms of the US constitution. it's only protection from the government and _nothing_ else. you're not granted these rights for anything that's owned by a private entity, thus this does not include freedom of expression or speech.

quote:
> Posted at 10:10AM on May 2nd 2006 by timothy
> What's the big deal??? I think if you're
> not offended by a freakin' swastika, then you're
> a piece of shit. Period. Anyone that puts a
> swastika up should be fucking shot.

I think that's exactly what the nazis said about jews at one point. Be careful, you are sounding a lot like the people that you hate.

Sadly we often hate in others what exists within ourselves.

My first (and only, really) time on Wi-Fi with Mario Kart one of the racers had a hand flipping me off for his icon and a profane name. If I were a concerned parent I might get a little upset about something like that, but maybe Nintendo should just incorporate a "never play against that jerk" option so that after enough people quit playing against him he just gives up on Wi-Fi altogether.

"It's only a matter of time till these avatars are disabled or are regularly deleted, unless the gamers start getting mature."

Or the more mature gamers realize they can just start another game, rather than making a capital case out of the issue. Avatars are disabled, swear filters are implemented, TV networks are fined, all because a very vocal minority of people spend way too much time being offended and way too little time enjoying life.

And to all the people saying "It's corporate owned, there is no free expression." Technically, that is correct. But are there no corporate ethics? MS is willingly censoring material for the Chinese Government. Is that okay, because someone in China may be offended? When almost every damn place in the world is corporate owned (including Joystiq), not allowing free speech or free expression is all but completely taking away those rights.

I'd get on board if you wanted to do something about corporations being allowed to buy up anything and everything (there used to be strong limits put in place that prevented corporations from owning multiple media outlets). As it is, if corporations like Nintendo, Microsoft, Weblogs, Inc., News Corp., etc., etc., etc. choose against allowing free speech, free speech is essentially non-existent.

I bet that player is a snaker. 'Cause every player in MK:DS I've ever seen that was a snaker was also an a-hole. Swastika emblem = a-hole.

I've seen this. I flicked on my DS to spend some idle time racing one evening, and I found myself up against either a fascist or an idiot (it may be difficult to distinguish the two, but in this case one believes in the ideaology, the other dosn't understand the conotations). I decided not to switch off the machine in disgust, but race him. I beat him, much to my joy, but I was disgusted. Disgusted, but not offended. Depressed, also, that there are people out there who either believe in Nazism or don't know about nazism. I still think Nintendo should allow the service though, although perhaps if we were allowed more info on the person we could boycott them. It saddened me to see such an evil sign on such a happy console. As for shooting Nazis, oh yeah, thats a great idea. Lets round up all the fascists and gas them, that'll sort out the situation! (Sarcasm intended)

I'm technically Jewish by the way, if that means anything.

Anyone that thinks racism isn't a major issue anymore needs to play an online game.

I can't play games online without being bombarded with N-bombs and other terms not acceptable since 1961 and used with the intentions of a Hitler speech. Its not just slang either... hateful statements not relating to gameplay are all too frequent.

Even if you are to dismiss this sociological phenomenon as sheltered 13 year old white boys, they will grow up. These "kids" are already embracing these beliefs at an alarmingly young age and are imprinting these nature into their persona.

I personally think this is a very real sampling of our population that goes beyond racial, socio-economic, sex, or regional boundaries. The medium of a anonymous forum only allows people to show their nature without consequences.

As free speech advocates say when it comes to TV, "If you're offended, there are 2 buttons for you to use: the channel or the power." I've tried switching games and got the same results, so I've quit playing online games. But videogames aren't the problem, the problem is the people playing them.