Xbox 360 HD DVD via USB, confirmed

Ah, yes. Nothing like a new Microsoft peripheral to break the Sony fanboys away from their Metal Gear Solid movi..er...games...for a few minutes to come gripe about how, "Oh, M$ with another add-on..didn't see that coming! haha! oh, wait til the games require HD! haha! Pwn3d!1one"

First off, the 360 games will not require this drive. It is for movie playback only. And if you think $100 is expensive, you should break down the price of your Blu-Ray drive in your PS3..when and if it ever actually comes out.

Everyone wants to think that what they have is the absolute best. That's the whole reason fanboys exist. But the fact of the matter is, corporations are going to produce products that are very similar to one another unless they want to take a big risk, and we ALL KNOW Nintendo is the risk taker in the gaming business, not MS or Playsta...er...Sony.

As far as the drive goes, I won't be purchasing it because I don't have an HDTV..so it's kinda pointless. Plus the DVD's are just too expensive for it anyway. But I think it's a great idea for those in a position to get an HD-DVD player. You know, there was a time when having more options was considered a good thing, no matter who was making those options. What happened?

It's not a classic console add-on because it will not play games. It is only for movies.

I'm just wondering how they are getting around the whole DRM thing. With HDMI, they have the ability to send encrypted data to the TV. With component cables, the analog system is readily intercepted and copied.

someone mentioned the wii dvd player it will be kinda like the xbox dvd player in that you have to buy an inexpensive add on dongle to play dvds

"46. Anyone who really believes this will anywhere near $100 is seriously mistaken. If a USB blu ray or HD dvd player came out for the PC it would be in the $300 range. What makes anyone believe it could be near $100....
Most external USB DVD RW's are still over that price. Even the xbox 360 HDD is $100, and thats only 20 gigs. (13 if you count the 7 gig that is preinstalled)

Besides the fact that add-ons never work."

I'm hoping for $100 for this reason - it's a very single purpose device, needing only to be able to read an HD-DVD disk and nothing else. PC HD-DVD drives do a lot more than just read HD-DVDs, including burn CDs (at the least). So if you can get a single purpose piece of hardware produced in quantity, it could be inexpensive. Then, considering this is most likely just a bullet-point in the marketing hype for MS, sell it at a break even price. Doesn't have to be a profit center as it will never likely produce many sales. Combine all of that, and you could have a $100 dollar accessory. The HDD, wireless controllers, etc are all part of a different business model, imo.

so if its used via USB can't it also be connected to Windows Vista once that comes out? or even more ironic, the PS3 or Wii?

"I'm just wondering how they are getting around the whole DRM thing. With HDMI, they have the ability to send encrypted data to the TV. With component cables, the analog system is readily intercepted and copied."

I'm guessing they are just counting on the fact that the major studies have publicly announced that they will not enable the copy protect bit, thus allowing HD over component, at least for the near future. They could, theoretically, make HDMI cables for the 360, though it's my understanding that the implementation would be clumsy and less than ideal as the DAC has already been done before the video from the 360 hits the outputs. I could be wrong on that count, though.

Ding Ding Ding #34

We have a winner!

"it bothers me slightly that the revolution/ wii needs an external drive to play dvds, and the x360 needs an external drive to play hidef movies. it ruins the point of having the console if you need to attach another peripheral to it."

It's likely that the revolution/wii will not require an external DRIVE to play dvd's but only a dongle to enable dvd playback, like the original xbox and the dvd remote. This way they don't need to pay fees on every system just on the dongles, because not every person is going to need their revolution/wii to play dvd movies. Or will be moving to high def dvd players. Why make consumers pay the extra if they don't need to. I won't be playing dvd's on my revolution. Xbox 360 and PS3 on the other hand want to be media centers.

I don't see this having any game support.

But I like it for movies. HDTVs only have so many HD inputs. One for cable. Usually only one left over. The 360 will want it. The PS3 will want it. If you need an HDDVD player it will want it.
Here you can just have it share with the 360.

And, when you no longer have a 360, they'll be $50 at Best Buy, anyway. No real loss.

Some of you a re griping about stuff thats not relative.

No 1. You dont have to buy it to make your games work

No 2. Yeh it's an add on at a cost, the b-ray is internal but also at a cost - your going to be paying a lot more for the b-ray than you would a regular dvd player - so this is a wash.

No 3. You only need to buy this if you dont want a regular stand alone player and you plan to purchase and watch hi-def movies - whats wrong with DVD??!!!!!!

No 4. Where is HDMI - im sure it will be on the player itself.

No 5. It wont be needed for games so quit fretting about it.

No 6."o its priceless, another add on that dosent come with the system that youll have to fork out your hard earned MS fanboy dollars for, man Microsoft are really clutching at straws now, why didnt they design the console properly instead of rushing it out in a panic."
-----^ Really??? And sony didnt screw you over royally with that stupid hard drive and final fantasy for the ps2 and thats pretty much all you got from them??!! oh sure, you forget about the real bad garbage that sony rammed down your throats and you believed right??!! LOL

@47, if I'm not mistaken, HD-DVD and BD use two different (but similar) codecs for the video/audio, which is why they can store different lengths for the same size.

@42, for the addon to have it's own HDMI output, then this would complicate things incredibly. The video is digital, which means it has to be decoded by a processor, before being outputted to a display. If the addon had it's own HDMI output, then the transmission would look like this:

HD-DVD addon reads data and outputs via USB
XB360 recieves data via USB, decodes, outputs much larger audio/video stream via same USB
HD-DVD addon recieves huge audio/video stream via USB, redirects to HDMI output
TV recieves audio/video stream via HDMI, outputs to display and speakers

That's under the assumption that the TV doesn't do decoding (I have no idea). If the TV does do decoding, then the returning stream along USB won't be as big, but that's still a lot of data flowing in both directions (a good analogy would be an 8 lane highway with each successive lane in the opposite direction as the previous one).

I'll also mention the very big flaw in that the addon will require it's own seperate power supply (USB provides 5V, which I very much doubt is near enough to run an optical drive at such high speeds). That's not very attractive given the 360 Power Brick.

And I've noticed a couple people getting the wrong idea about the Wii's addon... To my knowledge, it's a little attachment very much like the XB's DVD dongle. The Wii already has a DVD drive, just will have DVD playback locked out due to royalty costs.

Xbox v1.5 can now be upgrade to xbox v1.7 with the optional HD DVD drive add on. May be you can pay it off by selling the other 3 games that you don't play at all when you are forced to buy it with your $800 bundle.

Neutral fanboy here giving everyone an update from our camp.

We're still "waiting to see". Thanks.

I don't understand the big deal with HDMI. It's just another way to protect content from the user who actually bought the material. Here's a breakdown of HDMI vs. Component.

Isn't Digital Just Better?

It is often supposed by writers on this subject that "digital is better." Digital signal transfer, it is assumed, is error-free, while analog signals are always subject to some amount of degradation and information loss. There is an element of truth to this argument, but it tends to fly in the face of real-world considerations. First, there is no reason why any perceptible degradation of an analog component video signal should occur even over rather substantial distances; the maximum runs in home theater installations do not present a challenge for analog cabling built to professional standards. Second, it is a flawed assumption to suppose that digital signal handling is always error-free. DVI and HDMI signals aren't subject to error correction; once information is lost, it's lost for good. That is not a consideration with well-made cable over short distances, but can easily become a factor at distance.

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/122868.html

Zeromaru - The HD-DVD drive could be powered by the USB cable, with no other power cable required. There are many USB powered cd/DVD drives and burners, I can't see why this wouldn't be the same.

ozymandias:

Well, thats because Toshiba wants to spread FUD about Blu-Ray so they can win the format war. Just like how everyone says Sony hypes up their own stuff, Toshiba can make their format seem even better while taking away from their rivals.

You said it yourself, "According to Toshiba". Now if it was from an independant source, I'd be more willing to look at your source.

PS3s and XBOX360s are just game consoles. Not a religion.

Get over yourselves. Your arguing over plastic and wires. Big whooop...

HD-DVD's will have a scratch proof coting developed by TDK if you want to know a bit more go to this link
http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/129058.html
that should answer some questions for alot of you that dought everything against the wonderful Blu-ray.

ozymandias:

Oh, and as an further fact, look down at the bottom of the first page of the link you showed me, it says exactly how and why the lengths of HD content is so different.

"The likeliest culprits for those numbers not adding up are bit rate and encoding. A file recorded at a low bit rate will take less space. In addition, many early Blu-ray tests used MPEG-2 encoding, which is less efficient than MPEG-4."

Xbox 360 HD-DVD is essentially DUMBED-DOWN high definition video. HD-DVDs, TVs, and Players in the coming years (or two) are only going to have a copy protection scheme on them where the movies themselves specificy the quality the player can display them at.

This is to combat piracy, because it's easier to copy and analog signal as opposed to digital signal (digitial == better encrytion). Because of this many movies will not allow themselves to be played at full resolution over ANALOG/COMPONENT outputs.

Movies/Players/TV will all require an HDMI output, because over this digital interface the HDCP protocol (High Definition Content Protection) can be enforced. The movies will be downsample to paltry, perhaps, DVD-esque resolutions.

On the surface, the announcemnt is good, but quite frankly it's not good enough.

It's more of a patch work solution so Microsoft can say, "WE HAVE HIGH DEFINITION VIDEO TOO!!" to keep pace with the PS3.

It would seem that MS will require ANOTHER HD-DVD player upgrade in the future that carries it's own HD-DVD output, but then you have a whole wack of logistical problems with USB 2.0 bandwidth, both sending and recieving signals, so it may not be possible to even do that.

I'm fairly well researched when it comes to HD video, how the signals are transmitted, encrypted, rendered, etc, and I'm left extremely skeptical by this announcement. It almost seems 32X-ish, but with HD video instead of processing power. They tried, but it's really not a solution.

People can lambaste Sony for going with Blu-Ray, and all of it's delays and on and on and on. Who knows if Sony's gamble will work out. It could backfire on them. But one thing you're seeing Sony do however, is delaying it's product until it is fully mature and giving consumers the full feature set (full 1080p) they have promised with their Blu-Ray drives.

To me, Sony is taking their time and getting it right. Microsoft/HD-DVD is rushing it and getting it wrong.

I hope this somewhat helped (and I'm aware other people have covered similar ground in this talkback) :)

Cheap HD-DVD add-on ($100-200) + Netflix HD-DVD rentals = 720p/1080i movies on the cheap. Very nice. I'm all over it. By the time studios implement the downrez copy protection, it'll be time for a new Tv anyway. I'm all over it.

"And HD-DVD is cheaper and much more reliable than Blu-ray in any case. Let's wait and see the PS3 price."
Proof? Actually, from the way blu-ray is made, it is less prone to disc-tilting. Also, the discs are more durable. But I guess that's the opposite of reliable. Cheaper? To the producer, not to the consumer. Only the equipment will be more expensive initially, that's why there's a myth about BD discs being more expensive to produce; it's new tech, therefore new equipment, and therefore higher cost in the beginning. HD-DVD is just like DVD 360, if you know what I mean.

"They couldn't release the 360 in the specified time frame with HD-DVD. Plus that would be be a bad move if HD-DVD doesn't win or blu-laser discs fail to catch on at all. If Sony's Bluray fails, then we'll see how bad it gets for the PS3. If HD-DVD fails, it's no skin off MS's back."
Microsoft could have offered a free upgrade later and still launch it; they have the money to do so. Besides, if HD-DVD failed with a 360 HD-DVD drive, that wouldn't have been as bad to MS as Blu-ray failing to Sony. You said HD-DVD is "cheaper", right? HD-DVD could end up as a specific format for games, just like the gamecube discs. Its use in the 360 would make costs go down, just like Blu-ray costs will probably go down, most likely thanks to the PS3.

"Trust me, you don't want HDMI because it uses HDCP. DIE DRM. But if you care that much, the HDMI port could be on the HD-DVD drive, or on a different AV cable."
It's not a matter of wanting; it's the future of content protection. Companies have to protect themselves, whether you like it or not.

"Actually, this is more because the data is so close to the actual surface of the disc. It's REQUIRED for Bluray, not just a nice addition to protect the disc from users. This isn't a concern for HD-DVD."
This ain't a concern for HD-DVD, but DURABIS2 made Blu-ray superior to HD-DVD in physical data protection. It was like hitting two birds with a single bullet.

"I'm not saying HD-DVD is better. I think we would still be better off ignoring both formats. DVD works fine, and can be upscaled just fine. "
That's what you say. Cable, movie, and hardware companies won't agree. An important portion of HDTV owners won't agree (otherwise why even buy one?). The US Congress already mandated HDTV to become official in 2009. It's the future, so is DRM. With the so many advantages of Blu-ray, and PS3, it is also likely to become the format of the future; even if it takes longer than Blu-ray. I don't see content on demand coming soon, not only because the technology is not available yet (internet is too slow), but both consumers and companies will be reluctant to get everything through the net, at least initially. A matter of marketing.

Good post boots, but I think the US government is trying to mandate digital television, not HDTV. I am sure much of the digital channels will be HiDef tho...

Digital TV will run on a much more narrow/compact frequency allocation, allowing the government to sell the old bandwidth that analogue TV took up. $$$

so much for having the wireless adapter, now youll have the ugly cable sticking out the front, good job with one usb port on back for expandability

Jaemz, that's true, my bad.

But still, all major TV Broadcast stations have some HD programming already, and it will be naturally increasing everywhere.

Some people will indeed go buy a digital TV set, and in three years, perhaps 720p capable sets will be cheap enough. Maybe the cheapest will be 480p, but who knows if it will still exist or if the price difference will be that high. After all, if Panasonic stopped manufacturing analogue sets, they might do the same to "obsolete" TVs; if only for HD content companies interests.

Eventually, when everything is digital, "HDTV" will be standard. I would also like to think that if everything becomes digital, then upgrades for future higher resolutions will be cheaper and easier. And of course, that's when content on demand will reign, because another format war could be avoided by then.

A lot of folks are missing the point here.

They used "ecosystem" when discussing an addon for a video game system.

Ecosystem.

ECOSYSTEM!

That has to be, many times over, much more sissypantsed than naming your console "Wii".

For what it's worth, what I'd see as more "benifical to the ecosystem" (eugh, pretension) would be for companies to start dumping the whole lot of physical media.

I think a UMD-less redesign of the PSP would be a good start, too.

"72. so much for having the wireless adapter, now youll have the ugly cable sticking out the front, good job with one usb port on back for expandability"

This is the first legitimate complaint to make it's way into this thread. Though the potentially affected population is small (3MM or so 360 owners * % using the official wireless adapter * % also buying the HD-DVD drive), it's still a legit complaint. Just more reason to always go with a wireless to ethernet bridge when the option is available.

This isnt for games its for movies and i think its a great idea cuz sony putting blueray into the ps3 is a huge risk and if blueray flops like the betamax sony is in trouble. HD DVDs are out now and if the add on is less than 200 bucks ill buy it. A hd dvd is like 500 to 700 dollars and the blue rays are like over 1,000 dollars

Ugh. No HDMI?

/weeps

Wow. A lot of people here don't know a damn thing about video formats or digital transfer technologies!

First, HDMI is THE EXACT SAME VIDEO QUALITY as on DVI/VGA/COMPONENT. The only gain you get with HDMI is that it includes audio in the same cable, and it allows the MPAA to apply HDCP (Copy Protection scheme) to the video stream. You can send the same amount of information over HDMI as you can send over Component, DVI, or VGA. The only difference is the means by which is it transferred. VGA and Component are analog signals, but they are STILL HIGH DEF. DVI is THE EXACT SAME VIDEO SIGNAL AS HDMI, minus the copy protection and audio signal. HDMI is only desirable to the MPAA who wish to prevent copying/piracy of movies, but the 720p/1080i/1080p signal sent via DVI is otherwise identical to the same signal on HDMI.

USB 2.0 is FASTER than firewire in many cases. Firewire is useful on computers for hard drives and external devices because it does not use CPU cycles- It has its own processing- and therefore makes the drag on the main CPU minimal. With the Xbox 360, this is not a problem. The system has three cores, and only one of those cores will have anything to do with decoding a HD-DVD movie. That leaves plenty of system resources to the USB2 controller, and that means the USB2 will be as fast as if it were an internal device. Also, when reading digital info over a USB2 cable, it's not sending a video signal... it's merely sending a stream of ones and zeroes, and the CONSOLE is the one that decodes this into a video signal.

The Xbox 360 is capable of Component 720p/1080i and VGA 720p/1080i. If you have a 1080p HDTV (few and far between right now) your TV will upconvert a 1080i signal to 1080p, so calm down. It will look fine.

Of course, you need to have an HDTV that is greater than 42" to notice any difference between 720p and 1080p. Anything smaller just doesn't have the need for anything greater than 720p, because your eyes will not be able to see the difference. Really.

Seriously, some of you just want HDMI because it's "newer" and the salesman told you it's the latest, greatest thing. It's not. It's just a revision of the DVI port, made to include sound and COPY PROTECTION, with the exact same video capabilities. You need to stop whining about this.

I do think that we'll see a DVI adapter for the 360, though. I see no reason why not, seeing as they don't have their connectors hard-wired to the system. They can make a cable for whatever technology they want, including HDMI (Microsoft isn't a fan of HDMI, though, so I doubt we'll see that anytime soon).

And there's nothing at all wrong with VGA/component. They divide the signal into separate video "parts" in a similar way as the digital formats. They are not lower quality. They're just as capable of doing high definition as the other formats.

A lot of you have been suckered by the MPAA.

Finally, if given the choice between 1080i and 720p, I hope you're all smart enough to pick 720p. The naming scheme for 1080i is wonky, and really, if they were truthful, they'd call it 540i, as it's really 540 lines, interlaced. There are only 540 lines on screen at any given time, while with 720p, it's always 720 lines on screen. More lines=greater resolution.

Interlaced sucks. Reject 1080i. Do 720p instead.

If they used the same logic in naming 720p as they did with 1080i, then they'd be able to call it 1440p.

Think about it.

I might get the 360 HD-DVD after all, but I'm still perfectly happy with my upconverting DVD player in 720p.

This is stupid, I dont want one.

if they included it in the 360, I would be paying extra for some hd-dvd thing that may flop.

Man have you read the press release:
"they (HD-DVD Player) sell for as little as $499" wtf
and they are really hard on Blu-ray.

Excellent defense of the analog cables ZeroCorpse. Seems like a lot of people are being suckered by the MPAA. I posted something very similar to what you wrote and I included a link on why Digital isn't always better. Check it out.

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/122868.html

Ozymandias, the reason that Blu-Ray can only store half the video that HD-DVD can is because the DRM takes up no less than 38GBs of disc space. It's an unprecedented level of security, and will undoubtedly take software pirates several dozen lunch breaks to crack it.

Also, according to Toshiba, that handy HD-DVD player doubles as a bottle opener, lawnmower, pneumatic drill, vacuums your house, can do your taxes, and makes a mean espresso, while your fiendish Blu-Ray player will devour your children and housepets while you sleep.

Look on my works, ye Sony, and despair.

I like how the 360 gives me the option of letting me decide if I want to make the jump to high defenition video for only another $100 - $200. Choice is a good thing.

However, people are all ready to stone Sony for "forcing Bluray down our throats!". Blu-ray is basically free. Sony is subsidising the cost to have it in your system. So you are getting the PS3 with a free BD (bluray disc) player built-in.

So.. now it's much less of a debate, because MS is making you foot the bill for the nextgen media player, while Sony is buying it for you. Once PS3 is out, if you want HD-DVD, you have to still buy it outright. Wheras with PS3 you can just go buy movies immeadiatly.

Just because you have a BD player in the PS3, doesn't mean you HAVE to go out and buy movies for it you know. You still have the choice to decide on your own. It's just that Sony has already bought you a player, hoping that you will adopt the format and buy a few movies for it.

I'm also suprised that only the coating on BD was brought up as an advantage. Nobody mentioned that BD also uses Java as it's menu language. This means more interactive menus. Not to mention that BD also has internet capabilities. Why would a movie need internet? Answer: downloadable extras. Ever bought a regular edition DVD only to have the special edition come out later with deleted scenes and an alternate ending? With BD you have the potential to just download new extras. I don't know if studios will do this, but the capacity to is there.

As far as using a nextgen game system as my movie player.. That's fairly low-grade and primitive if you ask me. Given a year or two, I'd rather have a real standalone player than use a game system. These systems now are only a temporary solution, and for me personally, I'd much rather go with the technically better, free option.

DarkSol
I knew you wouldnt read the link i posted so I put this toghether for you.
taken directly from blu-ray.com faqs under general section 1.6
How much video can you fit on a Blu-ray disc?
Over 9 hours of high-definition (HD) video on a 50GB disc
About 23 hours of standard-definition (SD) video on a 50GB disc.
sorry I posted blu ray to only hold 4 hrs on a 50 GB disc. I was wrong.
the official HD-DVD promotion site, http://www.hddvdprg.com/, reads A 30GB disc can deliver three 150-minute movies, offering the perfect way to store movies and their sequels on a single disc
with all the vibrancy of HD image quality. It also reads that most TV series are brought to DVD in boxed sets. But the ability to store 48hours of SD quality video on one 30GB HD DVD adds up to whole seasons of your favorites TV drama on a single disc. Plus added extras.
So to sum it up
Blu-ray:50GB disc= 9 hrs of hd, 23 hrs of sd.
HD-dvd: 30GB disc= 8 hrs of hd, 48 hrs of sd.
I will not support either format untill one or the other takes a dominant place in the market. so based on the facts that i have read, blu rays compression is not as efficient as hd dvd and it NEEDS the extra space in order to have the SAME amount of content.

Sure... they should have included this in the 360. But I'm glad I got my system at launch and didn't have to pay another $100+ for it. Not everybody needs HDDVD, so why bundle it in?

I'm no fanboy, but I'm loving my 360. If the Wii and the PS3 come out strong, I will probably pick one up..but by then I'll have at least a year of HD gaming and 6 months of HD movies on my 50" DLP TV... and that's worth it.

the bottomline is that an add on is less appealing than having it standard
hddvd has its pluses in bein an addon and in bein standard
but it would have been better if x360 came with hddvd.
so wat if it were to fail, it could still be used for the games

You know, it have been smart of MS to not include an HD-DVD in their console. If HD-DVD were to lose to Blu-Ray, the 360 would be locked into a dead format, which might just kill their console. This is just their half-assed way of saying, "Hey! Look! We can play high definition movies too!" Sounds like a next gen Sega 32X.