Sony steals motion idea, but not from Nintendo
Gamespot's Inside E3 blog points out that Sony didn't steal their motion-sensing PS3 controller from Nintendo-they stole it from Microsoft and Logitech:They didn't steal from Nintendo. They actually stole from Microsoft (and Logitech). The picture you're looking at here [follow link to see pic] is a picture I took of gyroscopic, motion sensing controllers that Logitech and Microsoft manufactured for the PC in 1999. Yes, 1999 as in more than seven years ago.
...I just wanted to point out that this idea was soooo 20th century, and immediately flamed out on the PC because they were honestly more of a novelty than they were practical.
Of course, that would imply Nintendo stole their novel and impractical- exscuse me-innovative idea as well.
[Thanks Elijah]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Grant @ May 9th 2006 3:19AM
It's not about stealing the tech, it's about stealing the idea to implement it in console gaming. You'd be hard-pressed to convince me or most gamers that Sony would have made this move if Nintendo hadn't been making such a huge deal of motion detection.
Goobers @ May 9th 2006 3:19AM
why is this "hot topic"?
sony fanboys say this
nintendo fanboys say that
xbox fanboys say whatever...
blah. put it to use, lets not argue about who put it first, lets argue about who makes better use of it.
Paul Gale @ May 9th 2006 3:21AM
Interesting information. I wonder what the overal feeling of the videogame community is to this PlayStation 3 controller information. I'm also curious to see what's Nintendo's response to it in 9 hours and 9 minutes.
Paul Gale
1up.com
samuel @ May 9th 2006 3:21AM
no nintendo came out with the pelican an add on to star fox wrong again joystiq
Crias @ May 9th 2006 3:21AM
Keep in mind, I'm pretty sure Ninty isn't actually called gyroscopic.
I believe they used some sort of sensors placed around the screen to track the movement relative to the sensors, and then took the scale based on the distance between sensors so it could be adjusted for the game. Or so is my guess, based on what I've seen and heard.
Of course, Ninty does use Gyroscope as well I think... they know if your controller is tilted or not I'm pretty sure.
In any case, it's obviously not a new idea anyways. I (right now) have something called a P5.. its a glove that attaches to my hand. It also has a base-station with sensors. It tracks the movement of my glove... and also the bending of fingers. It took a while to get used to, but I love it, it works great as a mouse and sweet in games! But it's also very similar, IMO, to how the Wiimote seems to be working. Who cares?! As long as it pwns, I'm happy.
Raah @ May 9th 2006 3:23AM
You spelled "excuse" wrong.
dsub @ May 9th 2006 3:23AM
#1 said it best. Sony would not be doing this is it weren't for nintendo. You cannot argue that at all. Everything sony does is to counter something that another console has...Online service? XBOX, HDD? XBOX Motion sensing controller? Nintendo...the end result is a frankensteinish creation that ends up being $600 but doesn't even have vibrating controllers. Whatever.
vrf @ May 9th 2006 3:23AM
Ken Weeks, if you're not able to realize that the Wiimote's technology isn't even close to the same as the MS/Logitech implementation, then you shouldn't be writing on a gaming blog. Do your fucking homework, pal.
umm @ May 9th 2006 3:24AM
i think its kind of ridiculous to make that sarcastic snap at nintendos controller. nintendos controller IS innovative, is fresh, and is way more than the ps3 controller (and we havnt even begun nintendos conference yet) the ps3 controller is simply kirby tilt and tumble
Goobers @ May 9th 2006 3:24AM
"it's about stealing the idea to implement it in console gaming."
but then... the "idea to use it in console gaming" WAS the controller for the atari... was it not?
and "Nintendo hadn't been making such a huge deal of motion detection." hooray for Sony... let Nintendo do all the work, while they reap the rewards. don't you love capitalism?
Sabre @ May 9th 2006 3:25AM
Bingo Grant...you hit it right on the head. Gamespot saying that is about as dumb as the people who say the touch screen on the DS has been done before b/c PDAs have them.
Plus what is even WORSE is that Phil Harrison (who is basically Peter Moore "lite"), Ken Kutaragi, Kaz Hirai, etc. are playing this like THEY were the first to offer this.
As of right now...my debit card isn't flying to Gamestop to pay for my preorder.
!!M @ May 9th 2006 3:25AM
My friend had that MS controller. And it sucked. No one really cared about it, and few even remember it. Sony obviously got the idea from Nintendo; why would they wanna copy an unsuccessful pc controller?
DC @ May 9th 2006 3:26AM
I would just like to praise that mugging picture. Kudos!
pat @ May 9th 2006 3:27AM
gameboy color games had this tilt/yaw technology
Crias @ May 9th 2006 3:30AM
More 'proof' that Revolution ISN'T USING GYROSCOPIC TECHNOLOGY (ignore mentioning that they might in my first post).
Although inconclusive, just like Sony said... rumble and gyroscope dont mix. One interferes with the other. But Nintendo has this controller that rumbles and senses... why? IMO, because it's not sensing the tilts in the controler as much as where the controller is pointed... which a rumble wouldnt interfere with as much.
noname989 @ May 9th 2006 3:31AM
From what I understand Nintendo?s controller is different than a simple gyro. I'm not clear on the technical details, but it?s much more advanced than any old Logitech joystick from 1999.
Sony realized that, by claiming to have a controller with SIMILAR capabilities, they could effectively destroy Nintendo?s perceived advantage. That?s my take on it.
pat @ May 9th 2006 3:32AM
Haha the writer of this post is getting totally chewed out. haha, get a new job
had2comment @ May 9th 2006 3:32AM
Once the news broke about Sony's motion-sensing controller, I couldn't help but think back to the PS3's boomerang-style controller. I think the boomerang grips would have made the controller a little easier to maneuver instead of the dual shock design. Maybe this isn't as recent an idea as everyone thinks.
It was also after the news broke I realized one of the reasons Nintendo went with the single remote and attachment route. It is infintely easier to manipulate a motion-sensing controller with one hand than it is with two, especially if analog stick manipulation is needed.
Jack Carver @ May 9th 2006 3:34AM
OK,Im sorry but this not so much about techologie,what kind of technologie has been used is not the point.
The point is:
Sony would never bring motion sensing controller to this generation if it wasnt for Nintendo.
They ripped off Nintendo's idea there is just no way around it.If they did that down the road 1 or 2 years later after Nintendo's lunch it be little different.But even befor Nintendo is able to show of the idea they are pushing,is just not cool.
We all remember the boomarang as the conventional controller except it looked like a boomarang.
Sony never mentioned of any motion sensing ability,and we can see that no Sony game is taking advantage of the motion sensing, except the only one we were shown,which is more a demo.
Lets face it, if Sony really planed to have motion sensing in there controllers built in from the start, wouldnt they design games to take advantage of that?
Well guess what Nintendo did and is clearly there idea to bring the techologie to this generation.
Is not that hard to figure this out.
ill trooper @ May 9th 2006 3:35AM
People can whine about 'who stole what' all they want, but if the games are fun, the fanboys yelling 'who stole what' will never be heard by me.
You see, we're all gamers here, we all know that company B will answer company A feature-for-feature, and if anyone on this board HONESTLY thought no one else was going to introduce a controller that could sense motion or angle, you are NAIVE.
And if you still think Sony 'ripped off' Nintendo, please try to imagine the amount of time this sort of thing takes to develop and implement - if Sony could seriously develop this technology as quickly as since we all first saw the Wii controller, well, I'm sure they could have also had the PS3 coming out in the Spring of 2006...
The Revolution/Wii still seems to be the only controller that can sense 'location and velocity' due to the sensors in front of the TV, making it unique in that feature. I'm sure Sony wishes they had thought of that.
When is XBox 360 (looking soooo not-so-next gen right now! I mean, geez, you can already BUY it... Now THAT'S not Next-Gen, is it?) going to add another goofy peripheral to plug in SOMEWHERE so they can get 'Rockin' and henceforth, 'jockin'? AH! Maybe we can download it from the XBL Marketplace? That thing is already shaking my wallet with '6 ways of freedom.' Can I somehow return the lame EA NFL 'Chargers' theme I bought? No? Thankfully 'Geometry Wars' was such a value.
360 3D Controller on the drawing board?
We shall see... Count the months.
GTG @ May 9th 2006 3:35AM
3-d mice/controllers, "gyroscopic" controllers...a lot of this stuff is definitely not new. Anyone else remember the Cyberman 3D and the various ilk of that era? Powerglove, U-Force, light guns, etc. I still stand by my initial thoughts from when I first saw the Rev controller, which I had earlier re-iterated as follows...
Damn it, I like to sit back and "relax" to play video games. I go to the gym to work out. I sit back and play video games when I want to relax and have some fun.
I don't see why some people are so obsessed with the idea that everyone is really dying to flail/wave/flap/swing/flick their controllers in order to try to enjoy every game. I've already got enough hand/wrist stress from computing and gaming as it is. It's understandable to have such an overly physical control scheme for niche, short-timespan of play titles (DDR, Guitar Hero, Light Gun games, etc), but not as a primary control mechanism for a majority of games...especially not for extensive games with long levels. It's not like these control methods are really that new or revolutionary.
Exo @ May 9th 2006 3:38AM
Nintendo said from the start that they were using existing technology in the controller
clee @ May 9th 2006 3:48AM
Interestingly, Jeff Gurstmann (think that's his surname) pointed out on the Gamespot video blog that the Warhawk demo's new control scheme was very hurriedly implemented, at the last minute. Control schemes like this need to be a standardised, and if that demo was originally meant to run on the standard analogue stick control scheme, and then was rushed with the new gyroscope control scheme for this E3 presentation, then it is obvious that this is a reactionary move by Sony, with the move to implement this feature in their new Dual Shock controller obviously a reply to the Wiimote.
j @ May 9th 2006 3:50AM
Its really not a big deal. I think all eyes are on nintendo this year and they (sony) are crapping their pants a little bit. Introducing a tilt sensor is really not even close to the same thing as a 3D pointer with controller attachment. I am watching the SOny E3 conference and I got to tell you that guy is looking quite stupid swinging a controller around with two hands. I'm not being on any "side". I'ze jus callz it as I sees it. In a way I have to admit that watching all the footage was somewhat impressive but also at the same time was a little violent. Its not like those games aren't cool but it seemed to be the main focus. Plus you got blah blah 59 and OMGBBQ 5 and what not. And one last thing...... Phil definitely cracked a smile up there after some bloody footage that made him look like the devil. Just thought tht was funny. Alot of games on PS3 look impressive. The game that looked a little like prince of persia with the chick fighter was kick ass. I am sure there will be a ton of good games for this system. But I think the XYZ tilt feature was a last ditch effort to compete with nintendo especially because they emphasize the "No Sensor Needed" line. I know Sony is a multimillion dollar industry and should fear no one but sometimes that is a foolish move. Look what happened to Nintendo in the first place.
If the wii wii (hahaha just had to) actually works as its supposed to then I can see them as a major competitor. If PS3 is $500.00 then that is gonna turn some heads b/c thats 1/2 a computer at that price. I just think a $250.00 price tag plus new type of input device may hold up against the giant. PS3 dominates in graphics for sure. Glad to see they have the same controller. I hated that boomerang. No matter what there is no turning back for sony and everyone has laid it all out. Its like I said... all eyes on Nintendo. If there WiiMote (wakka wakka) works then it shal be glorius but if controller fails to deliver then I think there will be a gamecubish fate for this console. I hope all is as good as should be.
I am still awaiting the sequal of Castlevania SOTN and if konami does the right thing they'll make a 2D version for psp but make it LONG with a darker story line and of course you have to add alucard and definitely an ass load of special effects as well as blood and guts (it is a vampire game. Geez what happened to kick ass horror games??)
rokhed00 @ May 9th 2006 3:55AM
The funniest thing about all this is that Sony say 'we don't do gimmicks'.
Armin @ May 9th 2006 4:01AM
THIEVES! I'm definetly not geting a PS3 now...
Nintysteve @ May 9th 2006 4:10AM
Sony obviously stole Nintys idea, if you beleive otherwise than you are in major denial.
I'm not going to beleive a company (Sony) that Puts spyware in my CD's, makes false rumors about XBOX360's exploding, and hires kids to spraypaint their logo on city buildings (illegally I should add) *rolls eyes*
Sonys new catch phrase should be "Imitative not Innovative"
Andreas @ May 9th 2006 4:15AM
Gyro detects tilts and also can by clever coding interprete sudden moves. It would be a great thing in some games, such as super monkey ball and flight simulators etc. It's nothing like the Wii controller though that measures the controller's exact location and position which will make possible to reach your hand completely into the game with precise control.
Gyro has been around in Powerbooks for some time, and in some Nokia phones too. It's not particularly a new implementation.
Varian @ May 9th 2006 4:17AM
Gamespot is actually incorrect on this one. The PS3 controller, like the Wii controller, uses SIX degrees. Microsoft's earlier controllers did not do this.
It is not about 'motion'. It is about 'degrees'. Show the 6 degree of movement controllers that existed before. If there are any, there are very few. It's been too expensive to implement this technology until now.
It is pretty obvious that Sony is inserting such six degrees of motion into the PS3 controller is a response to Nintendo. Does anyone actually believe Sony is imitating the failed Sidewinder from 1999?
BobC (?) of Gamespot is grasping on straws to avoid the obvious point that is threatning his worldview. Before, when people have said Sony has stolen from Nintendo, they were called 'Nintentards' or 'fanboys'. Other writers for game sites have been much more honest with reality. The PSP Editor for Advanced Media Network has decided to resign and refuses to buy another Sony product based on their recent actions. That is drastic but at least it is mroe honest. This is a very competitive industry. If certain writers of game sites aren't interested in the reality of this industry, why should we bother reading what they say? In this industry, everyone steals from everyone.
The video game console business is not a technology business. It is an entertainment business. This is not the industry for new inventions, only taking existing technology to apply it for gaming. No console invented a button but they all use them anyway.
To say that Sony didn't take the analog stick from Nintendo is, again, ignoring reality. Sure, analog sticks have been around, but not in the little form on the controller as Nintendo presented with the N64 controller designed for specific 3d gaming (before, with 3d gaming, we used trackballs. Anyone remember those? Yeah.). After Nintendo presented it, Sony replaced their controllers with the original dual shock.
The Rumble pack? Same story. The single cartridge game download idea of the DS? Same story. But the biggest innovation of all is that after the 1983 crash, Nintendo defined the business model for modern game consoles.
There is nothing 'fanboyish' to point out this reality. But it is extremely weak for anyone at Gamespot (or anywhere else) to say that Sony implemented their motion based controller based on a failed Microsoft controller seven years ago and not on a main competitor that is releasing their product at the same time.
The DS must have scared Sony. How Sony expects to win markets like Japan with a $600 bloated console is beyond me.
I think we, the readers, and Joystiq, ought to be correcting the error this Gamespot blogger (?) is putting out instead of spreading the error throughout the Internet. Let's stop grasping at straws and remember that six degrees movement controllers are very recent. Stop this Atari, Powerglove, Sidewinder bullsh*t.
Jack Carver @ May 9th 2006 4:41AM
Is nice to know that there are people who can see the obvios truth and not try to change or denie it.
I like your post Varian,it makes sense, unlike 99% of the posts around the web.
Kidfried @ May 9th 2006 4:42AM
You guys over here at Joystiq never played Duck Hunt? Too bad for you, it's a good game, really.
James Sorensen @ May 9th 2006 4:47AM
Sony are smooth....
Nintendo announces the motion crap many many months ago, but before they even show it off Sony beats em to the punch, nice one upping nintendo Sony... Fly out in 4 hours for e3 cant wait to play me some ps3 and other new systems/games
MegaWatts @ May 9th 2006 4:50AM
Sony is on the ropes.
Copying everyone and the copying they are doing is very weak when implemented.
They are trying to do it all and its all poorly done. If you are very to copy something than do it better than the person you are copying from otherwise forget about it.
christopher henderson @ May 9th 2006 5:01AM
the POWER GLOVE was the BEST!!!
Aldar @ May 9th 2006 5:05AM
Why they need to steal idea of controller from some other company? Don't they have own excellent specialists?
Neighbors @ May 9th 2006 5:06AM
Very well stated, Varian. What really bugged me during the presentation were the proud looks on their faces as they showed off this wondrous innovation.
Also, for a two hour "aren't-we-great" fest, wasn't about an hour of it "exhilarating" footage from two games?
Plus, maybe I just haven't watched enough of these, but I don't think I've ever seen an event where the speakers had to keep reminding the crowd to applause. I'm excited to see if Nintendo can get some enthusiastic responses inspired by what they have to tell us, not because they ask us to be enthusiastic.
I've been looking forward to today for quite some time. Not only do I think this E3 is off to a good start, I don't expect I'll be disappointed.
Aldar @ May 9th 2006 5:06AM
Why they need to steal idea of controller from some other company? Don't they have own excellent specialists?
Aldar @ May 9th 2006 5:07AM
Why they need to steal idea of controller from some other company? Don't they have own excellent specialists?
nintencat @ May 9th 2006 5:30AM
Actually Nintendo got the idea from Dr. Hideki Kakeya. They just improved on the technology.
Tap on the links below to see the videos of the prototype in action.
http://www.stereoscopic.org/2003/videodemo.mov
http:/www2.nict.go.jp/jt/jt321/kake/video
Pseudo @ May 9th 2006 5:33AM
The big point (apart from the fact that the PS3 won't track the real-world location of the controller like the Wii does -- with Wii you can walk around the room and it knows where you are, allowing it to be used as a pointer) is that the PS3 controller will still be held in two hands. No using it like a sword, or a racket, or a gun, or about any of the interesting things we're waiting for on Wii. It's a really sad, half-assed immitation.
Sanjurosan @ May 9th 2006 5:55AM
Putting any stolen or not stolen arguements aside, I pose a simpler question that I'd like to everyone's opinion of:
Do you people honestly think that the gyroscopic sensing was always in the cards or was it a recent development that was implemented as a direct result of Nintendo's controller unveiling at the TGS?
epobirs @ May 9th 2006 6:06AM
There are very few new ideas. If you keep your eyes open at events like Siggraph, you'll see variations on the same themes over and over again without a real product appearing at retail. Sometimes it's a matter of cost. Sometimes it's the difficulty of making it work in a consumer setting. Sometimes it's a clever idea without a compaelling application to take it out of the lab. Or combinations of those problems.
Often an old idea gets revived because a company comes up with a technology that makes implementing the old idea far less costly and practical. Then it gets tried again. Micro-electromechanical systems (MEMS) has driven a lot of this in recent years. Sensors that were first developed for airbag systems in cars were too costly for cheap consumer products but advances in production techniques reduced $20 sensors to 50 cent parts. So now you have engineers putting accelerometers everywhere. This is why we now have laptops that can detect they're falling fast enough to park the drive heads and protect the data. And we have more and more movement aware toys.
This is just yet another manifestation of what happens when a technology becomes very inexpensive.
soco @ May 9th 2006 6:06AM
nintendo still didn't create it. if you look at the article, it's been updated to show an Atari 2600 joystick, that sucked, but still worked on the same basic concepts.
Jed Merrill @ May 9th 2006 6:20AM
Of course Sony stole it from Nintendo. What I want to know is when will Sony's "pending patents" get denied? And what will this do to their impending November launch?
Regardless, Sony's little game is substantially behind Nintendo's. This move will do much good for Nintendo. First, Sony will share the burden of educating consumers on the value of tilt sensing. Smart consumers will pick Nintendo's more intuitive and useful model.
More important, this gets consumers comparing Sony's console to Nintendo's instead of splitting the next gen console war into two opposing sides. Interestingly, the main point of comparison will become the one thing Sony is weakest at, game control...
This does open up possibilities for cross-platform games for PS3 and Rev/Wii...
Pince @ May 9th 2006 6:24AM
Motion sensing technology has never been a big secret. Its not exactly something you can "steal". You can try to implement it into new technology in an interesting way and that is what nintendo is attempting to do. Calling it stealing is just kind of petty and childish unless you are implying that they completely ignored a patent and stole the exact technology down to each individual chip. Now, that would be pathetic and that would be stealing. Nintendo's move, though not innovative in the sense that everyone knows that motions sensors exist (heck, theyve been in my house back home for over 10 years now and they use to make sneaking in late for curfew quite a bit of hell), the whole Wii-mote thing will succeed or fail based on how well the technology is implemented into the console and the gaming experience.
Pal @ May 9th 2006 6:40AM
It's not that it's stolen. It's just that no one cared to use the technology till now.
Grail @ May 9th 2006 6:54AM
The idea of the motion sensing controller IMHO is a real gimmick. The Nintendo power glove went that way as did many other controllers. It won't be useful in most games. and will probably be more frustrating than anything else.
Games it will be used for will be limited to balance games like Super Monkey Ball, Tony Hawk and Marble madness. They would have done better to include a camera, microphone, speaker, memory card reader, mini-LCD screen in the controller instead.
AussieJason @ May 9th 2006 7:02AM
I suspected Sony would do something like this for a while. What annoys me the most is that many Sony forums that constantly flamed the Wii controller are now "amazed" at the new PS3 controller and its "state of the art" motion sensing. I am the only hardcore gamer that is sick of the same old Sony thing, and only looking forward to Nintendo's offering in the next generation, or do others agree?
mattia @ May 9th 2006 8:11AM
I actually bought the old Sidewinder joypad waaaay back in 1999. It came with Motocross madness 2(or 1, not sure), as far as I know the only title that really supported the special function. And let me tell you the truth: it sucked! The idea was to let the player be able to control the bike, by moving the joypad up/down/left right. This was a kinda cool while jumping (you can adjust the bike in a quite good way) but totally stupid in any other situation. The big problem for me was to understand how much you've to move the joypad to obtain the kind of turn you have in mind. I can assure you that this is not easy to do: sometimes you move it a little and the bike goes straight, so you just flip it and bang, you hit something because now the bike moved too much. (see the video from the conference and note how the guy at the end lands: it's not as easy as they want you to think)
I tried it with many other games, but I finally decided to put it away.
To make it even worse, the joypad had the worst pad I have ever seen. It was impossible to do a straight line because the up/down/left/right spots were not really defined. it's difficult to explain it, just trust me ;)
So I'm not excited by this "new" feature. Not at all!
Reality Fakers @ May 9th 2006 8:22AM
The sony controller appears to be a hybrid design and not a bespoke model such as the Wii controller. I have full faith that using the Wii controller will be more natural and involving (and usuable) than a more simple gyroscopic control. Having to have two hands on that controller is where the flaw is. It will be ok for simple stuff but to base a whole game around it would be daft. The Wii controller on the other hand is designed from the outset to be the standard way to control the games for the system. One hand on the attachement and one pointing/waving/moving is far more natural than sticking a sensor into a standard gamepad.
As for removing Rumble.. that sucks, as limited as "rumble" is it is a backwards step to not include it (regardless of patents, battery life and weight).
Not impressed or excited by anything I saw in the Sony conference.. let's hope Nintendo can inject some much needed sense of excitment and fun into pre-E3.