Immersion offers to teach Sony's DualShake to dance
Immersion Corporation is a thorn on Sony's side -- in September of 2004 they won a lawsuit against Sony, arguing that the videogame giant had used their "haptic" (read: rumble) technology without consent. Sony is appealing the verdict, which requires that they pay $90 million to Immersion and prohibits Sony from selling games and controllers that specifically used Immerison's technology, including the PS2 DualShock controller.Coincidentally (or perhaps not), Sony unveiled at this year's E3 that the PS3 controller, which we are dubbing the DualShake for its motion-sensor properties, would lack a rumble feature. Immersion President Victor Viegas has offered to work with Sony to add rumble to the PlayStation 3 controller, adding that they have "numerous solutions" that they have offered Sony. The catch? Sony has to drop the appeal and accept the court decision from 2004.
Sony's line of reasoning has been, publicly, that they had to drop the rumble feature to make way for its last-minute inclusion of motion-sensor technology. However, as many have noted, the controller now feels flimsy, and the inclusion of rumble technology seems very viable. Its absence is a step backwards for the console, and we hope that somehow (by hook or by crook), Sony backs down and includes haptic technology with their final product.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Kamalot @ May 19th 2006 4:03PM
Based on what we know, the system has no rumble in the controller and slower data read speed from the optical disc. This will equate to less immersive games and longer load times. Graphically, the thing may eventually turn into a powerhouse, but developers are stating that the PS3 has a minor, theoritical peak performance advantage over the 360. While I may have over-stated the diference by calling it half-ass, you are paying more for a system with longer load times, no physical feedback and a theoritical graphical advantage, on paper.
We can take a look at other Sony software to determine what their online experience will be like. Ever use any of their MP3 software? How about using their online music store? Online games for the PS2 also count. Sony claims to have a system better than Live; a Live killer. Sony also claimed that their PSP was an iPod Killer, and a DS Killer. Sony's claims that the PS3's online experience is better than Live is highly suspect, unless you believe all of the other lies that Sony speaks.
Just look at Sony's previous claims and how so few of them have come true. Sony's marketing speak is a bunch of bologna, and we should be wise to be VERY skeptical of ANYTHING they say at this point.
3rd parties go where the install base is. They did that with the original Playstation, shifting focus from the SNES and Genesis, over to the Saturn and PS1. When Saturn lagged behind the PS1's install base, and N64 was slow to market, PS1 hit critical mass with enough install base to make it foolish for developers not to pay attention to PS1.
Same thing happened with PS2, the Dreamcast floundered while people waited for PS2 to arrive. PS2 then had a year to sell a ton of consoles before Xbox and GameCube came on the scene. This gave them plenty of time to achieve critical mass and sway the developers.
This generation is a little different. Xbox 360 has already sold quite well compared to Dreamcast and has a much bigger buzz about it. Playstation is late to the party and won't have any 'alone time' with the market. Their buzz will be diminished by poor availability, high price, and great competition. If Sony can't reach critical mass with PS3 BEFORE the other consoles, then developers will turn away from the platform for greener pastures. Add in the fact that both Xbox 360 and Wii have development environments that are reported to be much nicer and easier to work with, and you'll see support dry up for the PS3 quickly.
Saq @ May 19th 2006 4:03PM
Does anyone even care about rumble? IMHO it adds VERY little to the game experience.
joe @ May 19th 2006 4:05PM
yep, im 90% sure that sony will get the rumble back due to the flaming about it and sony nos its a step backwards
David @ May 19th 2006 4:06PM
So the question to Sony, Is it worth $90 Million to allow the controller to vibrate? Yeah good luck with that one.
LunarDuality @ May 19th 2006 4:08PM
They won't drop the appeal. They don't want to pay the money out *and* then (I assume) the injunction on all PS2 hardware (and some games) would come down and prevent them from continuing to rake in the cash. Unless part of this "settlement" took care of those issues, I doubt Sony will ever give this one up.
It's a shame really that a corporation that lost their case (over and over I might add) can continue to sell and profit from the products that violated the law. What's the point of filing patents? (I know all the arguments about how "pointless" this lawsuit was in the first place, but the courts ruled on this one so I have to follow the court's lead.)
SickNic @ May 19th 2006 4:09PM
Sometimes, for a company to be successful, they need to swallow their pride and make deals with their competitors.
rog27 @ May 19th 2006 4:09PM
Yes, it is worth it. It definitely adds to the game's sensory experience.
They will most definitely have it back in the controller by launch I presume.
Gary @ May 19th 2006 4:10PM
It wouldn't be too bad if there was no rumble with the contoller. I use a Wavebird with my GCN most of the time and don't feel like I'm missing too much. I do see how it adds more to the game when I go back to a wired controller though.
idioteraser @ May 19th 2006 4:10PM
Quite a number of game developers care about rumble. Enough they are considering not developing for the PS3.
diddydiddydid @ May 19th 2006 4:11PM
Can't they just make another way to rumble the controller?
Innovate please.
Z @ May 19th 2006 4:11PM
Great point, #4. You should get a star.
wierzbicki @ May 19th 2006 4:13PM
it seems that b/c they couldn't use rumble, they had to compensate by adding another form of "intuitive play"...i personally think that the first step towards intuitive play is rumble
Tim @ May 19th 2006 4:14PM
I don't see how it WOULDN'T affect the gyro-sensors in the controller. It would seem if you were flying a plane in WarHawk and you got shot, the vibration would shake the gyros and your plane would spaz out.
Vivio @ May 19th 2006 4:14PM
I think "rumble" is great! Sure I ignore it at times, but it's nice to have when you hear gun fire, and realize it's a sniper trying to take you out from over a hundred meters away! BF2MC XBL! Got to have the "rumble", if you are going to rumble!
DG @ May 19th 2006 4:14PM
This is 2006. Certain functions are expected out of console controllers. Analog joysticks and buttons, triggers, a "home" button, and -- ever since Nintendo 64's Rumble Pak -- force feedback.
I may be squarely in Nintendo's corner, but motion sensing has yet to be proven as an effective controlling mechanism. Sony ditching haptic technology for motion sensing is sad in two ways: They look cheap for not paying up to Immersion, and they look pathetic by copying Nintendo.
Maybe Sony will surprise us and the PS3 will become the most important consumer device of all time. However, things look very, very bad so far.
32_Footsteps @ May 19th 2006 4:14PM
Rumble works with some games (as mentioned before, it really works well with Rez). The problem is that it's overused. Look, my controller is getting annoying to hold because of this cut scene in Random Role-Playing Game 15: More Turn-Based Action. Did I forget to change the settings again?
Rumble support can add to gameplay... but not enough companies think it through and come up with creative rumble uses.
Worth noting - how many video games have rumble support in them? And in comparison, how many games are praised for including it?
stealth @ May 19th 2006 4:16PM
"Quite a number of game developers care about rumble. Enough they are considering not developing for the PS3."
who are these developers then? do you have any evidence of this?
Jeff @ May 19th 2006 4:16PM
"Sometimes, for a company to be successful, they need to swallow their pride and make deals with their competitors."
And sometimes, they need to show their competitors who's boss.
Which approach works best for any given situation is a judgment call for the leadership of the company.
Is Sony going to sell fewer PS3's because the controller lacks rumble functionality? Probably not. But Immersion is definitely going to make less money if Sony isn't paying them royalties. Who's got whom by the balls here?
Eric @ May 19th 2006 4:17PM
Japanese don't swallow...their pride. I've said it before and I'll say it again, SONY and ONLY Sony should pay for their arrogant stupidity, but instead they pass that off to the consumer by not giving them a basic function.
Personally I don't understand anyone that thinks rumble is stupid. I never bought a wireless controller for my PS2 until Logitech came out with one. Its awesome and it has weight. Weight that makes if feel like something. I don't know why Sony thinks a controller that weighs close to nothing is a benefit, everyone complains that they think it feels cheap...so will I.
My only hope is that they announce in next years E3 they've come up with a controller that has both.
JohnBlack @ May 19th 2006 4:19PM
It's funny how sony is trying to act like nothings wrong with a controller withour rumble when it has been a standard for so long. Plus the fact that Microsoft now owns a stake of just under 10 percent in Immersion.
Player1 @ May 19th 2006 4:23PM
How about if the controller gets really hot and burns you on the lava levels of every game. Or if it had spikes that shoot out and stab your hand when someone's shoots you. Or they could make it fart. That would be awesome and everyone would shut up about the wiimote.
aetherdeus @ May 19th 2006 4:26PM
For one, are people forgetting again that Sony patented the dualshake technology years ago? As has been pointed out in several other threads, not only have they had it for awhile, they've intended on putting it in the PS3 for awhile too, its just that the final controllers and confirmation were sudden. And aside from Silent Hill, I've rarely enjoyed the often crude use of rumble. If the demand is high enough, I'm sure some 3rd party could make a rumble controller or usb attachment. But good audio is far superior to rumble for immersion and I look forward to that.
James @ May 19th 2006 4:30PM
#1 - ever heard of Japan?
The Xbox 360 hasnt done quite well there. In fact it has done awfully. The Japanese developers will stick with Sony because thats where the user base will be in Japan.
Therefore the best Japanese games (ie- the best games) will be PS3 exclusive, and the world will follow. Cant see people missing out on Final Fantasy, MGS4 or Pro Evolution Soccer, can you?
Eric @ May 19th 2006 4:31PM
aetherdeus-
So thats why Harrison arrogantly commented that rumble/forcefeedback was "last gen"?
Somehow from that statement I get the feeling that Sony is no longer interested in persuing rumble.
Like the bully just got punched in the nose by the little guy and no longer wants to fight, only goes in the corner and crys about it.
DarthMoridin @ May 19th 2006 4:31PM
"15. "Quite a number of game developers care about rumble. Enough they are considering not developing for the PS3."
who are these developers then? do you have any evidence of this?"
Yes, link please. This would be very interesting if true.
riffgod @ May 19th 2006 4:31PM
Microsoft accepted an offer of a lot less than the price that Sony is supposed to pay with the court decision. Nintendo has not (as of yet) been named in any lawsuit reguarding the technology.
I think one of the biggest things to think about with this issue is this. Sony said that the inclusion of their motion sensor capabilities interfered with the rumble technology. That was a lie. One, because Nintendo's Wii will have both rumble and motion sensor technoloies. Two, because immersion has ways to fix the "problem" that they're having.
Does the rumble feature add that much to the gaming experience? Probably not.
Does the lack of rumble technology on Sony's PS3 controller represent a step back? I think so, especially with them trying to justify a $599 price tag by constanting trying to prove that they have more to offer than Microsoft (and to a lesser extent Nintendo)
Is $90 million dollars too big of a price tag to regain some consumer confidence? I suppose we'll see.
Is Sony trying to trick us into paying $599 for an over-hyped movie player? The questions are endless and you should answer this one yourself and ask some new ones if there's doubt in your mind.
*****Forgive me if my comment was too long or seemed to biased. I'm a huge fan of the Playstation consoles, especially the PS2. I'm just having trouble with Sony's approach to their latest gaming console endeavor. I'm hoping that maybe I'll find the information I need to see Sony's vision in a positive light. If you can provide that for me, please do. Thank you.**************
White Rose Duelist @ May 19th 2006 4:32PM
I think that in my entire life I played one game where I left the rumble feature on - Silent Hill 2. The only reason I did that was because the rumble was how the game notified you that you were about to die. Most of the time, it's annoying and distracts me from the game (mostly because I wonder why I didn't turn it off). I understand the theory about how force feedback adds to immersion, but here's the question: how many in-game actions would cause you rhands, and just your hands, to shake? A driving controller with a rumbling chair would add to immersion; having a shaking controller does not.
Some people like rumble, and that's fine. But I don't think that losing force feedback will hurt PS3 sales more than the high price tag and lackluster launch lineup.
Prof-KOS @ May 19th 2006 4:33PM
As a few people have said it doesn't matter if rumble adds to the game experience or not. The optics of being the only console that doesn't have a piece of technology from 2 generations prior is bad for Sony. Add to that the b.s. story about how it interferes with the motion sensing abilities in the controller. If that's true how did Nintendo do it?
James @ May 19th 2006 4:34PM
I will eat my hat if anyone provides proof of a developer cancelling a release because of the lack of rumble.
My mouse doesnt rumble but that doesnt stop me from being totally immersed in Oblivion.
Eric @ May 19th 2006 4:34PM
Can someone tell me what the hell Sony has been doing for the past 1.5--2 years while planning the PS3??
How can this friggin controller be so damn last minute?
Do they realize they have a battle ahead of them, or are they just retarded?
Regula Oblique @ May 19th 2006 4:35PM
Well sony could of stopped all of this if they just shrunk down sumo wrestlers small enough to fit into the dualshake controller.
4orty2wo @ May 19th 2006 4:37PM
I do not see why games that use the motion sensor cannot just shut off the rumble feature. Since the DualShake was added on at the last minute it is not as if many games are going to support it in the beginning any way.
benjamin @ May 19th 2006 4:38PM
@ 32_footsteps:
I think the reason that no games are praised for using rumble is that rumble has become so commonplace that it is simply expected. It's something that everybody just assumes you're going to have. You don't even notice it unless it's gone. The evidence of this is the very fact that it has been a non-issue until now.
I, for one, would definitely miss it. Not only that but I remember reading posts about the Wii controller and how concerned everyone was about whether or not there would be any kind of tactile feedback. Noone thought it made sense to have a motion sensing controller without feedback. Sony has now added motion sensing into their controller. Doesn't that make force feedback via rumble that much more important?
Jim @ May 19th 2006 4:40PM
So Microsoft settled out of Court, Sony is fighting the losing battle. Any idea why Nintendo never made any news since they also use rumbling?
revo4life @ May 19th 2006 4:41PM
The IRONY... OH the IRONY. Immersion sues them and they come back to try to make business with them. HAH HAH HAH
DualSmock @ May 19th 2006 4:43PM
How about a controller that has a centrifuge in it. Then, when things get intense in a game, it would fly out of your hand and possible destroy or hurt something or someone?!
Night Elve @ May 19th 2006 4:44PM
I don`t think that the absence of the rumble feature will really impact in the customer decision.
Personally i really dont care much about the rumble though i really think that the PS3 DualShock should have it.
The only games that i have in which the rumble feature is pretty sweet are the Silent Hill series.
Platinum_Skeet @ May 19th 2006 4:44PM
I KNEW IT!!!
Right when it was brought up last week I said this exact thing but people disregarded it because Sony was still in court. Sony could have the rumble feature in and it "DOESN'T" mess with the controllers...
Anyways I think since N64/PS2 console gamers became use to rumble being standard. Some people say it doesn't add nothing to games but some games (i.e Halo 2)tells you where your getting hit from.
Pretty much it helps pull you more into the game with FPS because you get unique feedback for the gun your using...
4orty2wo @ May 19th 2006 4:48PM
"How it interferes with the motion sensing abilities in the controller. If that's true how did Nintendo do it?"
Nintendo has sensors you place around your tv to pick up a signal from the control. PS3 has (I am imagining) a physical device in the controller that senses tilting the control. The rumble would cause an inaccurate signal.
Also, the Wiimote can detect all movement (tilting, rolling, etc.) The DualShake probably cannot do much more than an analogue stick.
amazing owl @ May 19th 2006 4:50PM
This just in:
The ps3 has just shot up in price to 800 dollars due to the settlement reached with immersion technologies. Now your controller can shake and dance as you will have to at the club (show me that keg nerd boy) to earn enough money to buy this monstrosity of a machine.
glitched @ May 19th 2006 4:52PM
more than one of you have asked "If nintendo can have rumble with motion sensing why cant sony" Well DUH, the sensores are OUTSIDE the controller - as in - next to the TV. wiht sony the sensors are INSIDE the controller
KawF @ May 19th 2006 4:53PM
In my opinion, rumble is a really lousy gimmic, and I'm quite happy that someone has finally removed it from being standard, even if just as a consequence of adding a better gimmic.
If you want to know from where you're getting hit, either make use of an on-screen hit-indicator like oh-so-many games, or be a real man and buy a west that sends electric impulses into you so you can feel the bullets.
Personally I prefer having a gimmic that can aid my controlling of certain games, instead of a gimmic that will just screw with my aim.
And no, I do not get immersed into games by having my gamepad vibrate. It could be used to give a nice massage though, but there's very few games that have that as a function.
Platinum_Skeet @ May 19th 2006 4:54PM
38
That's BS the N64 had a tilt peripheral made by Pelican that did the same thing the PS3 controller is doing. The accesory included a rumble pack. It never disrupted the game (I would know because I had it). So don't believe the **** Sony's feeding you.
32_Footsteps @ May 19th 2006 5:01PM
First, on the question about Nintendo and Immersion. Nintendo uses a different technique than Sony and Microsoft to perform a rumble feature. This is why Immersion never sued them - because that's covered under a different patent (held by Nintendo). Immersion has said as such in public interviews.
As for rumble features being expected, I would disagree. After all, analog support is expected in all games at this point, and I do read plenty of cases where a particularly good or bad implimentation is cited. You'd think a notable reference would appear somewhere in a review if it was really all that valuable.
To be honest, I'm probably the most pro-rumble person I know. And I wouldn't miss the feature in the vast majority of games I play if it was suddenly removed.
ryan @ May 19th 2006 5:05PM
I am pretty sure that the Wii has rumble!
cbroz91 @ May 19th 2006 5:05PM
I think that it may be worthwile for Sony to pay the $90 million in order to have a rumble fearure in the PS3. However, if they still have to pull all products currently using the feature, i think they will go without it. If sony does pull all their products, people will have to go somwhere else to get their game i.e. Nintendo and Microsoft. That would cause the averge person to forget about sony, and possibly they would to buy a 360.
my game @ May 19th 2006 5:13PM
1. Force feedback is assumed in this market and is a standard offering -- like a USB port is for today's computers.
2. MSFT and Nintendo would make Sony regret not including it. Did anybody notice Nintendo's major emphasis on haptics (rumble) during its E3 presentation? Not and accident -- this presentation was a day after Sony's performance.
3. Sony is in a battle for living rooms with the 360 and can't afford to cede any market share or group if it is going to succeed.
4. MSFT no longer owns any part of Immersion.
5. A third party controller (Immersion licensed) is being released for the PS2 which contains both motion sensing and force feedback. If it can be done for that platform.......
6. Sony's real problem is, if they lose the appeal and don't enter into licensing arrangements with Immersion, the entire PS2 product line and quite possibly the PS3 (if it can support haptics) will be enjoined from the US market. This is 44% of Sony's business....
7. On and on -- Immersion has Sony by the short hairs on this one......
alkie4life @ May 19th 2006 5:15PM
People please. The sensor on the TV only senses where the Wiimote is in physical space. It does not affect the tilt, rotation, or yaw which comes directly from the Wiimote due to it's internal gyroscopes. Those same gyroscopes are what is being put into the Dualshake. Therefore, Nintendo figured out how to do it and so should Sony. Don't buy Sony's BS just because it came from the horses mouth... This is all about money. Plain and simple.
And to those wondering how Nintendo has avoided this whole mess, it's because the patent was not on vibration itself, but on the way the vibration is created. Nintendo developed (i.e. innovated) their own technology while Microsoft and Sony copied. Miscrosoft paid up. So should Sony...
Kamalot @ May 19th 2006 5:16PM
Sony lied about the reason they don't have rumble.
Sony lies. Keep that in mind whenever you read anything from them.
Platinum_Skeet @ May 19th 2006 5:18PM
As I say again the N64 had a tilt peripheral made by Pelican that did the same thing the PS3 controller is doing. The accesory included a rumble pack. It never disrupted the game (I would know because I had it). So don't believe the **** Sony's feeding you.