Immersion offers to teach Sony's DualShake to dance

I was saddened when I first heard of the lack of vibration (the word 'rumble' is sooo nintendo), and was further upset to atch foru8ms not really care. The other day, I played THUG 2 with all vibration off, and the game felt empty. We may not notice it during a hardcore session, but it definitely adds to the experience. Of course, the argument is that with 7.1 and 1080p, it will make up for the loss. But this is the next generation. We're here to move forward, not provide alternatives.

Regarding Immersion's offer to Sony, I sadly accept that they'll probably decline and go on with the appeal (which they'll lose) and no vibration in the DualShake. I've only ever seen Sony listen to criticism once, and that was with the bananamerang controller. If they're searching forums now and seeing that people don't see lack of vibe as a major los, they won't give in ti Immersion's demands. And you have to remember, Sony love everything they do, and will not resort to accepting pity-driven peace offerings.

Clarification -- I meant that 44% of Sony's Playstation business is in the US. (Not that this really changes the importance of the matter to Sony.)

#1 This isn't the first time I've seen you post things on here and EA. Man, if you're going to bring your intense hatred of Sony here at least bother typing something different next time.

And as to the question, I could care less. Rumble is an annoyance, and nothing else.

Nintendo owns quite a bit of Immersion. It's how they got the gyroscope tech for their gbc and gba games.

Also the game developers considering not developing for the PS3 due to lack of rumble are music game developers.

The creator of Rez for instance.

Also fishing games have rumble that is something that will make your hands shake in real life.

Sword fighting games are another use of rumble.

I thought that force feedback was a gimmick too, early on with the 64 until I stopped whinning about it and played Goldeneye with the Rumblepak. What amazed me more than anything else was the different feel of the vibration based on which gun you fired. The Klobb gave a vibration that felt whimpy but the DD Dosteov (?) really rocked the joystick. So is rumble important? You bet your ass it is. When I play Gears of War, Zelda, Metroid and sSmash Bros, I want to feel the impact when I smack someone in the face or launch that missle.

Sony SHOULD drop the appeal, talk to Immersion and work something out. But then again, when Sony 1s estimating huge losses on PS3 hardware at market, does Sony really want to take an additional 90 million dollar loss? I think not...looks like they're bleeding money.

They are already bleeding out close to a billion on producing those six million PS3s. Sony is taking enourmous losses because they consider the people buying HDTVs and Blu-ray movies to cover up the slack.

Consider it this each blu-ray movie sold gives sony a small kickback as is each HDMI tv made by Sony or one of it's affliates.

The PS3 isn't about games it's about Blu-ray and Sony's dwindling marketshare among dvd players and tvs.

I don't understand why you would be glad a feature is being removed as standard. Pretty much every game that I can think of gives you the option to turn the functionality off if it detracts from the game. If it doesn't save those settings, that the problem with the game itself, not the feature.

I personally prefer vibration functionality. Its applications are useful to me. From knowing I'm getting hit by from behind me in Star Wars Rougue Squadron II to letting me know when I've ridden to close to the wall in F-Zero GX. And I personaly find it more enjoyable when the controller shakes during an explosion. The experience feels weak otherwise.

For those of you who do not believe this will affect a customer's decision, stop for a moment and re-read over the comments where people say it matters. Obviously if no one cared, Nintendo wouldn't have introduced the rumble pak with such success and Sony wouldn't have found it compelling to integrate the functionality directly into thier own devices.

Will it really make or break a sale? Not by itself. But it may be the last straw on the camel's back when a customer assess price along with existing or non existing functionality.

If you don't like it, turn it off. That's why every game that supports vibration function gives you that option. And again, if thats not the case, the onus is on the developer to use and adapt the technology properly.

Btw where is this supposed ten year old dual shake patent?

Why is that Sony execs dissed motion controller tech after the 2005 tokyo game show when Nintendo presented it?

Compare what sony said before and after their E3 press conferance.

At least Microsoft has some deceny to complimente Nintendo and say it is interesting.

I think that the reason why the Wii controller can use both haptic and motion-sense is because it uses an IR field projector, and the motor is in the analog nunchauku (sp?) and not in the base remote where the gyro-sensors are located. I should think it to be possible set a decent enough dead-zone for the gyros in the PS3 controller to allow the rumble to work. It's vibrating, not rotating, pitching, or yawing.

Sony, your failure to innovate has shamed you. You invaded the hand-held market owned by Nintendo with overhyped expensive crap, made a redesigned PStwo that isn't compatible with the entire PS2 library, and hit my puppy.

Stumpy misses running in the park. :(

The motor is in the wiimote. The IR is just used to turn the console off and on. It's got bluetooth in it.

After realizing that the bar for the Wii only seems to contain two IR LEDs (from various pictures taken at E3 with all the bars side by side, you could see that the same two spots were always bright). I believe it's only to let the controller know where "center" is. Otherwise, you'd have to have the controller pointed at the console all the time, because that would be your point of reference.

Regardless, it's ridiculous to assume that the motor would affect the accelerometer when both controllers use similar technology for tilt, etc.

rumble is a very important feature that adds another dimention of immerssion into the gamplay experience.
i am dissapointed with sony how they seem to be moving backwards.. although nintendo seems to be able to find new ways to immerse the gamers with even the new speaker that is emplemented in the wiimote

@ James:

You said: "Cant see people missing out on Final Fantasy, MGS4 or Pro Evolution Soccer, can you?"

I most certainly can. I, for one, am not at all interested in any of those games. Not one. I hate the Final Fantasy series (and indeed ALL Japanese-style non-RPG RPGs) and I found only MGS1 to be worthwhile. The sequels were repetitive crap.

Soccer? Pffft.

I and many other people are quite happy with Oblivion, and the promise of Smackdown vs RAW 2007 (a proven franchise, finally on an Xbox unit), and numerous other great games on the horizon (Crackdown looks awesome, and if Street Fighter 2 Live Arcade doesn't sell like hotcakes, I'll be surprised) I don't see Sony's position as being so solid.

Yeah, there are those Final Fantasy and MGS fans out there, but they're all asking themselves this: Is the next Final Fantasy or MGS game worth over $600 for me to play?

I say no. Of course, I wouldn't give you $2.00 for a Final Fantasy game. They suck, unless you're into anime and can't live without your movie-with-minimal-interaction style of gameplay. I bet the 360 and Wii will have something to rival (or replace) FF and MGS, anyway.

I'm staying put. The 360's a better game console than the PS3. The only reason I purchased a PS2 was to get the superior Smackdown series (instead of the Xbox's rotten series of bad WWE games) and Katamari Damacy. Now that both will be in other places, I have no need to waste my time with Sony again.

And if I want a multimedia computer-- Oh, wait! I already have one of those! I guess the biggest task for the PS3 will be finding a place in the home when it's already being outdone by other appliances and electronics in all areas.

Irrespective of whatever occurs, I foresee the PS3 being a huge success come launch time so get your preorders in early, fans, because I can see a duplication of the 360 shortages-it's as plain as day. Toys R US is gonna let er rip as soon as Sony blinks, so I make it a point to check in there at least twice a week. Good luck!

The patents that Immersion was granted are bogus. That's what Sony has been saying from the start. You can view them at: http://patft1.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm

The patent numbers are:
6,275,213
6,424,333

"a mass-moving actuator comprising a shaft and an eccentric mass mounted on said shaft for transmitting vibrations to said sensing body part, said mass moving actuator rotating said shaft"

Is that really something that should be "patentable"? IMO, it's stupid. The patent should never have been granted.

Will Sony pony up $90 million to have it with the PS3? Not a chance. The PS2 just topped 100 million consoles sold. There is *no way* that Sony is willing to take a dollar from each console and give it to another company simply because they called "dibs" on using an out of balance wheel. They'll fight this all the way to the top. And they should.

The US Patent office hands patents out left and right to companies that aren't even producing anything. They just take existing things and want a "MINE" stamp put on it. Nobody can patent the wheel because it's "common knowledge". Yet an out of balance wheel is not? C'mon.
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/doc/general/index.html#whatpat
"The subject matter sought to be patented must be sufficiently different from what has been used or described before that it may be said to be nonobvious to a person having ordinary skill in the area of technology related to the invention."

These kinds of patent cases just cost consumers money.

I guess we figured out Peter Moore's online screenname. it's Kamalot.

not that I disagree that Sony practices some of the most egregious corperate double-talk in the entertainment industry, but everybody else does too. even Nintendo.

anyway, in terms of rumble... at first, I thought "no big deal" but the more i think about it, the more I think i would miss it. I really enjoy rumble, especially in fighters like Tekken. here's hoping that Sony get rumble back, even if Immersion is playing low ball. I know they won't, claiming that it interferes with their motion-sensing stuff (again: why does it work with Nintendo's and not with Sony?), but...we'll see.

To gopodular:

Bogus? Are you living in a closet?

Immersion won a hard-fought jury trial where the validity these patents (and Sony's infringement) were litigated. Sony lost. Was the trial "bogus"? Hardly; it is strongly confirming.

The USPTO has denied Sony's challenge to Immersion's claims for these patents? How is this "bogus"? Quite the contrary; it is strongly confirming.

If the patents are bogus why did Microsoft settle so quickly once presented with the information about their infringement? Granted, the deal was favorable to them, but nevertheless, they settled. This is certainly confirming as well.

If the patents are bogus how is it that nearly all controller manufacturers that utilize this particular technology have been licensed by Immersion? Don't you imagine these folks have competent patent counsel? Confirming, once again.

"Bogus"? Not likely!!

^^^ Seconded. Legally speaking, sony doesnt have a leg to stand on, which is why they lose appeal after appeal. They are just stalling with yet another appeal right now so that they dont have to embarassingly pull all their products from the shelves. They will quietly pay eventually. The patent system, b.s. or not, will not change. Too many companies with too much money at stake wouldnt allow it (especially pharmaceuticals).

And to clear things up for those who dont know the back story, here is the situation: Immersion holds patent on spinning dual-weight rumble tech. Nintendo (or a subsidiary) holds patent on spinning single-weight rumble tech. This is why immersion did not and cannot sue ninty. Both microsoft and sony, however, ganked the dual-weight tech for their controllers without licensing from immersion, who eventually sued. Microsoft settled out of court for around $20 mil, then proceeded to buy 10% of immersion corp. Sony took another route, and i guess tried to grind the small company down with endless prolonging litigation (that extra cashflow from said microsoft deal sure came in handy, hmm...). Now, like 3 appeals and $90 mil later, sony would still rather cripple their next big thing than to admit they LOST and get on with business. This stubborness/ego is going to cost them.

Also, for the ninty fanboys with their heads in the clouds about how hi-tech and "innovative" the wiimote is, reality check:

http://www.xgaming.com/newsletter/Wii%20Dupe.shtml

^^^Fascinating read, highly recommended.

Honestly, this whole rumble thing is such a joke. Does the DS have rumble? Does the PSP have rumble? No... Do these systems do very well? Yes...

All this blah blah blah about sony stealing ideas is ridiculous too. If the Wii is a Revolution, than the PS3 is an Evolution.

How long before 360 adds some kind of motion sensor? How long before the Wii has a camera? How long before the 360 gets any HDMI ports? Wouldn't these features make these systems better? Yes! Is everyone gonna complain that companies are stealing these ideas? Who cares! I want the best possible experience for my money, especially if i'm dropping $400-600 on a console alone!!! END OF STORY.

A couple of things that people don't seem to understand about Sony's situation:

The $90M doesn't get the 'rumble' tech on the PS3, it is punitive for the previous use of the feature on the PS2. If Sony's appeal is not successful, they will have to pay the $90M and if Sony does not then license the 'rumble' tech, they will have to pull all products that use it. After this, Sony could then consider whether they wish to pay to license for the PS3 or not.

Another point that could be an issue if Sony chooses not to licence is whether they would be permitted to make 'offending' PS2 titles backwards compatible on the PS3...

#68, DS does have rumble. Metroid Prime Hunters and Metroid Pinball have rumble. Mario and Luigi: Partners in Time support the Rumble Pak too. Yes there is one for the DS.

How to counteract rumble:
1) Use algorithms to calculate exactly what way the comtroller will move during a rumble, and subtract from the sensory input. (aka anti-shake technology for cameras)

2) Ignore interference: generally is something is to rumble, you are SUPPOSED to lose a bit of your control.

3) Just don't use it in tilt-sensitive games.

aetherdeus Sony didn't patent the dualshake(PS# controller why do people call it that) controller. All they did was patent technology that allows a periperal to sense that it is being tilted the Wiimote doesn't do sense tilt it senses 3 dimensional motion which is far more complex then the PS# controller. All the PS# controller can do is sense it self being tilted. So They technically copyed Nintendo cause Nintendo was going to use it for the actual consoles main controller and not use it as a peripheral. Now do you get it. But in reality you can't compare the PS3 controller to the Wiimote because the Wiimote can do alot more then what the PS# controller can do. For example the PS3 controller can only sense itself being tilted up, down, left, or right. While the Wiin mote can sense itself in 3 dimensional space so you can move it up or down left or right and it can sense itself being moved forward and backward, turned or tilted left and right or if its upside down or facing to the side. In short the Wiimote can basically sense it self being moved in any directionj and in complete 3D space of an entire area which is what the PS3 controller lacks. Just of some people didn't know now you know. Also I am sorry for being so damn long and off topic. But just a penny for your thoughts the real question about Sony is are they willing to accept immersion's offer and then admit that the thing that kept the rumble feature being added to the controller wasn't the tilting function but the lawsuit itself then they would admit they were lying to there consumers which would hurt their reputation for lying which has happened to the alot but got away with it because they had good games but I don't thionk they'll be able to do that this generation though.

That xgaming link is garbage. The wiimote uses bluetooth not IR as the link claims. If it was IR then the tilt function when you held the controller like an nes controller wouldn't function at all.

Anybody who has investiged the claims in that link knows it is full of garbage.

As some of the above posters have said, you really won't realize how much better it is playing with rumble than without. Me and my bros like to play smash bros on the weekends sometimes. We all have our own controllers except mine has been dieng as of late and I lost the rumble feature in it a few weeks back. The difference was huge, even tho i never paid any attention to it b4, all of the sudden without it, the controller just feels like a hollow shell.

Vibration just adds that much more to your gameplay experience, even if you aren't actively aware of it; its there. It also serves to add weight to the controller, i'm not sure about the ps3's controller but unless gyros r heavy... the controller will just feel like the ye old ps1 controllers (seriously go play ur ps2 with those old controllers w/o vibration and analog sticks... u'll c the difference).

"Posted at 11:19PM on May 19th 2006 by Psaakyrn"

beat me to it! damn it. i was reading all the comments to see if anyone mentioned the really obvious solution. if not... i was off to post. oh well.

i think it would be possible to allow rumble even in tilt games honestly. because the system would know the pulse rate / frequency of the rumble regardless. just subtract that out and interpolate the motion curve. i imagine there is smoothing of the data anyway. and the processing would all be done on the system itself... not like the controller needs any brains to do it.

If it was me, I would tell immersion to stick there rumble up there ass. I always turn off the rumble feature, think it's a waste of time and money. Come on Sony, pay the Ninja to take em out.

I don't think that the load times will be longer than on the 360. With all that storage on blu-ray, there is no need to compress the data, like they have to do on DVD for the 360.

The real question might be... when the appeal court will state the final decision on the case...? Indeed, we are talking about a not-yet-commercialized PS3 and if the court is set to close the case before the PS3 launch, we may expect it to be the decision point for Sony...

From a market point of view, given both the price of the PS3 and the success of Wii's controller, Sony is certainly studying the matter seriously..

Guess you missed the reports Boo that the PS3 loads it's games onto the hard drive to lessen the loading screens. Meaning your hard drive just got filled with game data. Also numerous PS3 games at E3 froze and died out while people while playing them. It was pretty rare for a single wii game to do it.

Funny how the gamecube didn't have a single load screen.

Funny isn't it how the supposedly advanced psp has five minute load screens yet the DS doesn't have a game with a single one unless the game is doing something major such as rendering an entire game level like in Worms.

yaa Sony you better add the rumble feature to your controller, I bet its not only consumer who are pissed but also developers, they've been working hard for the last yr trying to making a decent game for the ps3 that included the rumble feature and 1 wk before E3, Sony tell them to change everything! .

Not looking good Sony, Not looking good. you were willing to change the controller before and you should be willing to do it again. Unless you wanna suffer a terrible defeat and end up being known as "dreamcast, the remake"

ZeroCorpse, now that's an original response. I thought you were going to say that MGS and FF suck, but just proven me wrong.

Yeah, I'm sure there will be *something* that replaces the most acclaimed series in Japan (and of course, who else could like it? there must be 60 million people that *love* anime; because after all, that's the only reason why they could ever like final fantasy), and the second or third most critically acclaimed series worldwide. Especially if it's on Wii, the console for Epic, HUGE games, or better yet, on 360, the console for Japanese Games.

Most surprising to me is that you are not excited for a cross-platform title on 360, nor the typical games that one would expect on 360.

Now that we are all about your thinking process, I will proceed to do the same and say that nobody could possibly like Halo unless they've never played a First Person Shooter, never seen a Sci-Fi story, and like to pay double for a game: No decent single player campaign, and yet you still have to pay even more for the important part of the game. Talkin about 600 dollars...

Next...

Check this out
http://www.gamingbits.com/content/view/664/2/

and

http://www.edimensional.com/news/pr-gpad.htm

Motion tracking controller with rumble officially licensed from Immersion.

Only time will tell how this will play out. I see no point in arguing about the facts. I will keep my beliefs to myself and watch as it all unfolds. So i cant be wrong or right....