Poll results: (Reevaluated) next-gen combo platters
by Christopher Grant 
{ Jun 5th 2006 at 9:27AM }
After receiving over 30,000 votes -- a new Joystiq record methinks, and nearly four times as many responses as our earlier poll -- we finally have a winner! For our poll, we wrote, "With a finite amount of entertainment dollars going to next-gen consoles, it could be argued that every extra dollar spent on a PS3 is one less being spent on another console like the Wii."
With a more expensive PSWii combo, our readers aren't going to be dropping the Wii so much as they'll be buying less PS3s. Even with a much larger test bed, the percentage of respondents who intend to purchase a Wii is roughly the same; however, the PlayStation 3 suffered a significant setback, resulting in an increase in Xbox 360 purchasing intentions.
Total percentages: # of votes - % of votes - previous %
Wii: 26204 votes - 85.93% - 84.21%
PS3: 6581 votes - 21.58% - 48.41%
360: 17629 votes - 57.81% - 46.30%
Market share: new % - old %
Wii: 51.98% - 47.06%
PS3: 13.05% - 27.06%
360: 34.97% - 25.88%
It is clear that Peter Moore's assertion that people are "going to buy an Xbox and they're going to buy a Wii" has some legs, with a plurality of voters choosing the Wii60 combo platter. Nintendo's console combo strategy also appears to have withstood Sony's price announcement, just resulting in notably less PSWii bundles.
Of course, these numbers may have no analog in real life sales for any console (statisticians we are not) but they do represent an accurate depiction of what Joystiq readers think. Have at 'em.
(Update: corrected some grammatical confusion.)
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Conrad Quilty-Harper @ Jun 5th 2006 9:34AM
I already own an Xbox 360 and with the Wii coming it at a price in the UK that's a near equivalent of the price in the US there's no reason for me to not to pick one up. Especially when the competition is a £425 behemoth.
http://www.joystiq.com/2006/05/26/price-parity-for-wii-in-europe-uk/
http://www.joystiq.com/2006/05/18/uk-playstation-3-comes-in-at-425-sony-loses-its-marbles/
jon @ Jun 5th 2006 9:42AM
Slashdot.com is linking to an article by the Inquirer that "PS3 Hardware Slow and Broken"
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=32171
If this is true than a Wii60 combo is the only way to go.
White Rose Duelist @ Jun 5th 2006 9:43AM
Considering that the Wii's nominal target audience would not be within 1,000 megabytes of Joystiq, I think that they could even do better than this. I know at least two people who have never owned a console who are really excited about Dragon Quest Swords.
C4PTAIN AWE5OME @ Jun 5th 2006 9:53AM
why spend 600$?? Why- what can it get you? 360 and ps3 will have identical graphics, Xbox live is proven, and 360 is 200$ cheaper. You are spending an extra 200$ to get blueray?? i just dont get it- blueray is set to fail as anyone who has seen a HD-DVD/Blueray comparison will tell you. sony has a big big problem on their hands.
RazorElite @ Jun 5th 2006 9:54AM
Heh, I wonder if those polls would be fairly representative of the average consumer's mindset. I don't doubt though. Come on, not a vast majority of gamers expect to pay $600+ for a console. No matter wth it does. Point is, people want to play games first and foremost, and if those games aren't lightyears beyond the competition, it simply makes no sense. Plus, the Wii60 combo is just obvious. I mean, the greatest games on the 360 plus the very nice innovation of the Wii, all for one very nice price. Wii60 all the way!!
Janu5 @ Jun 5th 2006 9:59AM
I think alot of it has to do with Sony's attitude about the whole thing. People who are die-hard fanboys of Sony will buy PS3, and the same holds true for Xbox and the big N. However for the rest of us, cost is an important factor. So we'll see how it goes. I mean i haven't bought a Nintendo product since the "grey brick" that was the first Gameboy. But i have to admit, Wii (worst name ever) has piqued my curiousity. Time will tell I suppose.
MyNameIsGame @ Jun 5th 2006 9:59AM
The thing with the PS3 starts to get really bad. I'm getting a bit pissed at Sony. I actually DO believe that the general public will be dumb enough to buy the console because of their current market domination but reports like these (see link) make my stomach ache.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=32171
omg.
Im going for the wii + ds + tanning oil combo and go lay in the sun till all is settled.
Andir @ Jun 5th 2006 10:11AM
@jon & MyNameIsGame:
This is total bunk. The Cell processor doesn't need to read from this area of memory. It's in the design specs. The only reason for the minimal bendwitdh at all is for syncronization which doesn't require this speed. Before following lies and rumors, read up before spreading them.
The local memory is used for Video processing and the Main memory is used for Cell Processing. Just because MS decided to use shared memory in the XBox doesn't make either method "better".
Karmakin @ Jun 5th 2006 10:17AM
Well, I'm buying a Wii at launch. Mind you, that's been a given for a while. I DO want one of the other systems, however I'm not a big fan of either Microsoft's or Sony's first party games. Not that I'm saying they're bad. Just that they're not system sellers. (I particularly enjoy the Ratchet and Clank games)
But I'm holding out to see who gets the lion's share of the interesting 3rd party exclusives. Nintendo, I don't have to worry about for two reasons. First of all, Nintendo itself makes great games. If Capcom or Square/Enix released a console, I'd be first in line for it, because I'd know they'd have a great lineup of games by default. The second reason, is that my decision was really made by me by the poll. I've seen that poll done in a wide number of places, and the results are generally the same. The Wii IS going to have the marketshare this generation, and is going to get a good share of the exclusives coming to it.
So my big concern is getting one. I suspect they're going to be really hard to find for quite a long time.
bob @ Jun 5th 2006 10:17AM
From the PS3 article "Talk about a steak in the heart." um...?
bazza @ Jun 5th 2006 10:19AM
I already own a 360 and i'd like to own a Wii after that. PS3 is no doubt a very capable console, but with all the hype, the arrogance, and the fact that what is being delivered is no different from what the x360 already, i cant justify the price. I have no HD tv and dvd format is very much adequate...i only just bought my first DVD recorder.
Of course the have a large fanbase and are a household name so $ony will sell out to that market.
Soothsayer @ Jun 5th 2006 10:20AM
What I find interesting is the gigantic swing in Wii's favor. Remember before E3 when everyone was declaring the end of Nintendo? The Wii got 10-15% on polls like this one. Now it gets more than 50%.
Of course, that says something about the poll sample: it's heavily hardcore-oriented. That is, a vast, vast majority of the voters watched E3 closely. The market into which Nintendo is expanding consists of people who don't watch E3, and don't doggedly keep up with the latest rumors. In short, their audience was not represented here.
Therefore, as someone previously mentioned, Wii should do even better than indicated in the poll. How much better can't be determined, but at least the new polls indicate the success of Nintendo's E3.
Kritz @ Jun 5th 2006 10:29AM
Well, I'm a fairly die-hard Xbox fan. Although the Xbox 360 isn't all I hoped for it, but it's still teh awesome.
I want the Wii just because of the classic Nintendo games that'll be on it. The new Super Smash Brothers looks like it'll smack some people in the face, too.
But the PS3 is going to be -way- out of my wallet's way. Living in Australia, I get used to being smacked around by the prices of consoles. I estimate the PS3 to cost an extra $170 USD, and the games to cost and extra $15-25 each.
But, I might how-ever buy a PS2. I mean, right now they're as cheap as two Xbox 360 games. So I might save up and buy myself one. That is, unless the Wii comes out before I get enough money to blow on a console / games / controllers / memory cards.
Wii360, ftw.
>> Kritz
OffTopic Man @ Jun 5th 2006 10:35AM
I'll bring you guys in on a little secret. PS3 will have market dominance once again, just like always. No need to have all these polls.
Sean @ Jun 5th 2006 10:35AM
That Inquirer.net article, if true, is a bombshell. Sounds like Sony is pulling an N64 out of their hat this generation.
I thought the RSX being half as powerful as Xbox360s VPU was more startling than the local memory bus problem, unless by local memory they are actually referring to RAM and not CPU cache. IF that's the case Sony really f'ed up here.
Looks like they should have put more focus on getting the Cell processor to work properly and easier to program for instead of focusing on Blu-Gay.
PS3 == Xbox 1.5
Sense @ Jun 5th 2006 10:36AM
Hey, I remember that Poll! I totally voted in that!
Seriously though, I've already got my 360. Only the Wii remains.
I always thought I would eventually buckle down and get a PS2, but it's never happened. If Virtua Fighter 4 couldn't do it, I guess nothing will. So, I doubt any one game will convince me to get a PS3.
What disturbs me is how more and more, Sony distances the PS3 away from its primary gaming function. Phil Harrison says it will replace your web browser, your movie player, your toaster, etc. No wonder their PR person jumped ship.
What about the games? That's what I want to know.
Then again, it's all kind of a moot point for me, because I won't be buying one for a long time, if ever.
elmer @ Jun 5th 2006 10:40AM
I'd like to ask Joystiq if they were able to filter the ip addresses on the votes? It would help to establish whether this is representative of joystiq readers' views, or if some fans are overzelous. Of course the zealots of us may very well spend that much more on a particular company, but it's still interesting to know what the breakdown of viewpoints is and know how fair those breakdowns are.
Scooby Doo @ Jun 5th 2006 10:45AM
I'm actually a little surprised by the number for all three systems and it makes me wonder how accurate this poll is and how the market share of the consoles will actually look in two years time.
I'm a gamer, and one that loves Japanese RPG's, where would any of us go other than Sony for those? Although my plan is to initially only buy a Wii and a PS3 at launch, I'm sure I'll get a 360 eventually when they finally come out with a system seller for me, so I would say I'm getting all three systems at some point.
I think this poll is more representative of the backlash Sony has gotten with their price point. There are still WAY, WAY too many unknowns to use this data as any kind of indicator for the marketplace. What if the Wii flops? What if Sony garners some really hot exclusive titles? Who's going to win the HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray war?
On the good side, this is sure to incite Fanboy rants and those often give me a chuckle when I need one.
Insomnia Bob @ Jun 5th 2006 10:47AM
I was planning on passing on a 360, in favor of a PS3+Wii.
But...I guess I never really figured I'd have to pay more than half a grand for the damn thing. I could have gone $400. $500, I wouldn't have liked, but I would have done it. But I'm not paying $600 for a console, and I'm not paying $500 for the stripped down version.
I've never been a big fan of X-box. For the most part, I felt their game library sucked. And, I love my square-enix games and resident evil games too much. But now everything's up in there air. Yeah, MGS and FFXIII are going to be on the PS3.
But it's $600 bucks!
This time through, I voted for the 360+Wii. And I'm not even sure if I'm going to get the 360.
cheater @ Jun 5th 2006 10:47AM
I remember that poll. I have been using the IP changer program, and I've voted xbox360 and Wii many time.
is @ Jun 5th 2006 10:51AM
Jeez, you can actually feel some of you sheeple squirming because the poll doesnt reflect your own choices! Buy whatever console you like! Its not as if any of them will be undersupported.
Why are playstation fans becoming so upset because it looks possible that sony will be knocked off the top spot? Honestly, I dont understand this brand ideology. I can understand it with nintendo, because they at least create their own stand-out intellectual properties, but sony? For why? Thats like having a brand loyalty to tesco or something.
Austin @ Jun 5th 2006 10:51AM
I am happy to see that joystiq realizes (unlike a few comments) that this is a measurement of the joystiq readers' make up and not a poll of future market share.
Anticrawl @ Jun 5th 2006 10:52AM
Someone's a fanboy. *cough 10 cough* Anyway I say WiiC (Wii & PC), but I may pick up a 360 as well for console fps's and some other games, Halo 3 for instance.
Drew @ Jun 5th 2006 10:53AM
I agree with #7,
those specs aren't final and if the local memory is just video memory then who cares. I think this is akin to reading the frame/color buffer in OpenGL. not exactly the fastest thing you could do and not necessary for most games unless you are doing screen shots (can any opengl/direct x gurus confirm or correct?) or some other weird effect but thats why you have shaders. I'm picking up the WII and then a PS3, if the games are worth the price of admission. The Xbox 360 looks to have some good titles coming out this year, I hope my 360 last long enough to play them. I just had my first crash screen (error 79) and its out of warranty. oh well, in case any of you get this error. Remove any storage (hd, mem cards) and reboot. If everything works replace storage and reboot. If error repeats call MS.
-Drew
C. Grant @ Jun 5th 2006 10:54AM
Elmer: We use pollhost for our polls, and they allow you to decide if users are allowed to vote multiple times. Of course, this poll was set to no. However, that does not prevent the very passionate and vocal Nintendo fan community from encouraging their friends in forums, etc from all coming here to vote similarly.
Sean @ Jun 5th 2006 10:54AM
Andir,
If you can clear this up for me please:
By your rationale, why can the RSX access the local memory of the Cell processor faster than the Cell itself?
The way I read this, the Cell has local memory (cache?) and main memory (256 MB RAMBUS) and the RSX has local memory and main memory as well. The Cell is only able to write to its cache at 16MB/s?
I'm sorry I seem confused but maybe you can clear this up for me as I would like to better understand this.
Pii3.14 @ Jun 5th 2006 10:55AM
I would have to assume that many, many people out there are excited about the Wii. Based on the reaction and hype from the Big N's E3 showing, a buzz has been generated. Based on these numbers (if we can assume some sort of accuracy, even in the +/- 5% range), Nintendo's future is looking bright. With that kind of demand, the system will sell, if only for the new experience we'll get with the tried and true franchises. The hype alone will deliver third-party exclusive titles. Whether or not any of those titles are worth playing reamains to be seen. We do know, however, that Nintendo will deliver stellar first-party products, including its entire back catalogue. That's pretty much a steal at $200, innovation of gameplay notwithstanding. It's something the hardcore gamer, the fanboy, the average consumer, the casual gamer, the non-gamer, the retro-gamer, and the former gamer can all get excited about.
Mike @ Jun 5th 2006 11:02AM
This poll is not surprising. We've only seen a few of the games released for PS3 and none of them look light years beyond what the 360 can do. Their conference just didn't convince me to work extra hours to get this console. The lack of rumble in the controller is also a deal breaker. I'm not sure how the tilt feature will work, but I'll have my Wii for that type of gaming. The blue ray vs. hd-dvd battle is also concerning. If hd-dvd wins that means that the blue ray media will be more expensive and drive the cost of games. Just bad all around Sony. Drop the price to $300 and I'll consider it.
tomato @ Jun 5th 2006 11:06AM
From what I've read, the Local Memory from the Inquirer slide is the RSX memory and is taken from the GPU section of the PS3 technical presentation. The Cell processor would have NO reason to read from this memory except maybe for taking a screenshot as Drew said. I believe the Cell has 25GB of bandwidth to the main system memory which is the memory it uses. There are 256MB of memory each for the RSX and main system memory. Whoever wrote that article completely misinterpretted the data.
Please everyone, this is the Inquirer we are talking about. That alone should be enough to take the article with a million grains of salt.
don_sf @ Jun 5th 2006 11:14AM
polls are gamefaqs prefer ps3 (and have more hits) after xbox 360. wii of course the winner.
the ps3 will definately have bigger crabs than the xbox 360.
Steve Randall @ Jun 5th 2006 11:17AM
The answer is simple. If you don't want to buy another Betamax, buy a Wii until the next-gen DVD wars have been won (I reckon a clear winner will be obvious inside 8 months).
You'll also be able to pick up the PS3 or XBox cheaper, too by that time (perhaps the HD-DVD drive will actually be IN the XBox 360 by then, like it should be).
My opinion: The PS3 might be bought by people with plenty of cash to spare, who already have a good HDTV, etc. The initial shipment will sell well to these people but available punters will dry up pretty quickly - especially when Sony botch the XBox Live competitor (they just don't have the experience of large-scale online, integrated operations).
BTW - I HATE Microsoft.
Andir @ Jun 5th 2006 11:17AM
@Sean:
Local Memory is different from the local cache on the processor core. Just to clear up some confusion that may arise from wording.
The presentation was on the RSX processor. The Inquirer "failed" to divulge this little important piece of information. Local memory to it is like the memory on your video card. Why would your processor need to access this memory?
When programming for the RSX/Cell platform, RSX will read textures from the Main memory and use it's Local memory for processing that data.
@Drew -
In this case, it wouldn't matter if it was a dev kit or release. The memory pipe concerned does not need to be as big as the Inquirer article claims. The article is unecessary.
btboy500 @ Jun 5th 2006 11:18AM
Originally I went for the PSWii combo, because I figured that the PS3 could do anything the Xbox 360 could but better, along with having guaranteed third-party support. Now, I'm more in support of Wii60, with plans to get a PS3 after the price drops several times. Wii wasn't even an issue, and I'm a little skeptical about the 360, but the PS3 is simply too expensive for my tastes at the moment.
C4PTAIN AWE5OME @ Jun 5th 2006 11:20AM
What games have you seen that are light years beyond the 360??, killzone? haha. Nothing in game im sure- Sony has faced litigation regarding this matter for deceptive marketing practices. The actual in game footage is identical to the 360- ps3 games can not look any better than 360 games as designers have stated and this forum has reported... graphics capabilities
are identical.
Michael May @ Jun 5th 2006 11:21AM
I think about a week before E3, sony realised the Wii60 problem, so are now trying to make it a combination between the two (graphics & power of 360 + innovation & controller of wii). However, since it is now basically fighting 2 companies at once, it will have roughly half the number of exclusive titles. This, plus the incredible overpricing (at least here in the UK), plus the fact that for all that money, you're getting a clone of the 360 with a worse controller, means that sony are dropping a stinker this time around unless they magically pull a killer game out of their hat. And not just any killer game, a 102 megaton nuke of a killer game.
Jack of all trades, master of none? You bet.
And OffTopic Man: try telling that to Atari. and Sega. and Amstrad (own ZX Spectrum).
zero2dash @ Jun 5th 2006 11:24AM
Nobody's paying $600 on a toy.
'nuff said.
Sony's price has already done them in and the show hasn't even started.
Microsoft and Nintendo didn't even have to lift a finger or fling mud this time around. Funny.
Gary @ Jun 5th 2006 11:26AM
I think casual gamers will be the driving force in determining a "winner" of consoles. They'll be the ones buying a single system, especially in the beginning.
I have a 360 and I'll be buying the PS3 and Wii when they're available. That makes my console "vote" moot.
Nick @ Jun 5th 2006 11:31AM
First of all, it's ALL Wii.
Second of all, to "Bubba", it's wankers like you that make me NOT want to vote for a Republican. "The world will be a better place" ????!! Are you freakin' kidding me? Take a good look around. Ask people in other countries if they feel that way, and I'm sure they won't tell you what you want to hear. Hell, try asking anyone that earns less than 50k/per year and 9 out of 10 will tell you to piss off.
Anyway, I come to Joystiq to get away from all of that nonsense, so thanks Bubba, for bringing your evangelical political crap here.
Meastro @ Jun 5th 2006 11:32AM
Well, people, I can tell you that this poll was proxied alot. I refreshed the poll every 20 seconds and I saw the PS3 go up by 1, exactly every 20 seconds, while the 360 stayed the same, and the Xbox 360 still got a higher score.
I think the 360+Wii is legit, everyones talking about that combo on every forum so that getting the most votes makes sense. I can't wait for some Twilight Princess + Halo 3 goodness!
Sezer @ Jun 5th 2006 11:39AM
The outcome of this poll is not surprising. The Xbox 360 and the Wii is the way to go. Why spend $200 more on a system thats similar to the one we've had for a year? I believe the 360 is more powerfuller, overall, myself, too.
Oh, hahahahaha, Sony got the Worst Company of the Year award: http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,125706,pg,12,00.asp
Jeremy Wright @ Jun 5th 2006 11:46AM
While folk might have cheated, the reality is that it was probably a representative size of 20K+ people, which is a great representative size.
So figure a +/- of 5% or so and it's probably a fairly accurate reflection of the Joystiq readerbase's feelings.
Just have to wait for Christmas to see how this all actually plays out, eh?
SuicideNinja @ Jun 5th 2006 11:47AM
Wii now, PS3 later...much later...damn FFXIII...
I just don't get it. $10-$20 for a DVD, $15-$25 for a UMD, and $30-$40 for a Bluray disc?
UMDs should have come down by now. People aren't buying. If nobody buys Bluray...the prices won't come down. Game prices won't come down either if they don't have a game-on-DVD9 backup plan in such a case.
The BlurayStation just doesn't seem that exciting.
The PS3 won't be dead, but I'm guessing it will perform like the lackluster PSP. Decents numbers, but not great numbers.
PSP and PS3: both overpriced, both with disappointing performance, both with a proprietary format, both don't concentrate on games...
What the hell is Sony doing as of late?
riffgod @ Jun 5th 2006 11:49AM
I didn't mention this at the time of the poll, but I voted for the consoles that I would buy at launch. There is a difference and mentioning that difference in the poll may help it to be more accurate.
I did not say that I intend to get all 3 consoles, but I do. I have a 360, I'm going to purchase a Wii at launch, and I do intend on eventually getting a PS3. I'm just not getting a PS3 at launch. In fact it will probably be 3 years at least before I get one. I think the other 2 consoles should give me enough joy until the price comes down enough on the PS3 for me to justify the purchase.
Still, like I commented when the poll was hosted there are many factors that you should take into consideration with this poll. It is very hard to take the results for what we see, with all of the flaws in the poll.
It came out how I expected though with the wording in the poll.
Drew @ Jun 5th 2006 11:50AM
@Andir
Cool, I can see how that would be the case. and I meant I agreed with your post #8 instead of post #7.
-Drew
Pretty Obvious @ Jun 5th 2006 11:53AM
Ill stick with the 360 this generation. Microsoft has a better lineup then Sony and a cheaper price to boot.
Nintendo has proven over the last 2 generations that they suck at keeping steady releases for their consoles and theres no way in hell ill pay anything over $150 for a console that barely beats the original Xbox in power. Makes me wonder whos really out to rape your wallet, Nintendo or Sony.
ipodfanboy @ Jun 5th 2006 11:53AM
number 34 I agree, Most casual gamers only owned 1 console and that was the ps2. I think casual gamers are officially fucked with the ps3. Casual gamers were the determing de facto in the genesis vs snes were the genesis out beat the snes here in the states the ps1 vs the n64 and ps2 vs gamecube and xbox. Casual gamers are looking for resonable price point cool games cool look and cool image and how mainstream a consle. Now look at the ps3, it has the cool adult image it has the games its already mainstream because of the name the only logic that does not go with the ps3 is the price point not being 300 dollars and that will upset the millions and millions of casual gamers nationwide. The price point totally screws up the playstation logic. Ps3 could dominate if it was 300 dollars but the ps3 cost 2x as much. Like I said casual gamers are fucked and they deserve it. Im looking forward towards the wii60, playstation wont dominate again because sonys main fanbase will be waiting for ps3 to drop down to 299.99. By time the ps3 drops to 300 dollars sony will be already trying to launch the ps4.
Mullinator @ Jun 5th 2006 11:56AM
I would just like to point out that for anyone who claims to have used IP changers to vote multiple times that it really won't make a difference. Unless Wii and 360 fans are the ONLY ones who know how to use them.
Sorry but you can safely assume that if Wii and 360 fans were using them then obviously PS3 fans would have as well. On top of that the 30,000 number is not at all unrealistic once you look at the fact that the poll was posted in many different forums as it was open and was up on Digg as well.
boots @ Jun 5th 2006 12:04PM
Well, I'll be getting an Xbox 360+Wii combo, it has a much more promising line up of games. Mario Galaxy, Red Steel, Twilight Princess + Bunch of party games and the 360, all of the games amazed me, Dead Rising, Lost Planet, Prey, Gears of War and the Halo 3 trailer, much better than the PS3 line up. Uh, the MGS4 trailer didn't impress me, you could see the polygons on the screenshots, and its using blur too, thats dreadful developing. What with the news that tje 360 is powerfuller than the PS3 and much easier to develop for, the 360 will gave more impressive graphics. So yeah, 360 for Xbox live + Next Gen gaming and Wii for drunken party gaming nights!
Looks good to me!
--
PS3 won worst company of the year, doesn't surprise me, they suck.
Eric @ Jun 5th 2006 12:07PM
@Andir
So would this hamper reading from the frame buffer? I admit that I haven't seen the PS3 SDK, but how does it handle Render to Texture? Because depending on the implementation (if you don't have to write your own) it may require reading from this section of memory and then sending it back to the main processor. Render to Texture is kind of a big deal now-a-days.
Sean @ Jun 5th 2006 12:13PM
Thanks for the clarification Andir, first and last time I read anything from that site.
As for the poll, Joystiq readers are more likely to purchase the Wii, but in the end the games win the format war and not the hardware.
Lets hope this current generation of video games decides to innnovate and not renovate like the previous generation.