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Reader Comments (45)

Posted: Jun 21st 2006 6:34PM (Unverified) said

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I'd say if Immersion contacted Sony about it then Sony would probably go for it. But if they are just going to metion it's exsistence and not let Sony know they want them to use it in their new controller in time for launch then it might not happen.

Posted: Jun 21st 2006 6:40PM (Unverified) said

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Rumble would be nice to have in a PS3 controller but it won't be missed. The only games that really used it (that I can think of at the top of my head) were Metal gear and Ocarina of Time. If I had a choice between rumble or motion, then I'd take the motion with the lotion.

Posted: Jun 21st 2006 6:46PM (Unverified) said

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i would chose rumble over motion sensing. i can live without motion sensing as ive never had it, but take away rumble and i would notice straight away.

if anybody played table tennis on 360 lately will know how important rumble can be

as gamers we basically have 3 sources of feedback (vision, audio and rumble) and taking rumble would obviously leave us with just 2 feedback sources.

motion sensing is another input mechanism to the console and dont personally like the idea of

Posted: Jun 21st 2006 6:50PM SacsFinest said

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Comes down to trading an output for an input. I say we already have too many buttons...

Posted: Jun 21st 2006 6:56PM (Unverified) said

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Why not have both rumble and motion?

... and sound!?

Wiiiii...

hehe, sorry couldnt resist.

Sony's designers are possibly even lazier than the people at Porsche. The left analogue stick is STILL in the wrong place!

Not having tried motion sensing I can't honestly say which I prefer (unlike some other people in here who can decide without trying something new - no names)
But, motion sensing would have to be pretty good for me to give up rumble.

Posted: Jun 21st 2006 7:01PM (Unverified) said

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Here's a perfect example of rumble working wonderfully. Anyone here played a little known game called Splinter Cell (sarcasm alert)? The whole idea of lock picking in the game is pretty intergal to its completion. And the way its implemented is great, rotate till you feel the tumbler tweak a bit and bang, door opens. It's subtle, but when i first did it i thought, and still think, its a cool way to implement the feature. Rumble isn't anything that necessarily has to be intrusive...take the Halo cutscenes. Explosions trigger a controller shake. It's like was mentioned above, input is pretty complex in consoles now-a-days anyway, sensory output is generally limited. Give me sensory output anyday.

Posted: Jun 21st 2006 7:05PM (Unverified) said

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I know everyone says "rumble won't be missed" and "I never use rumble anyway" but I DO want rumble in my PS3 (if I get one). Imagine all the backwards compatibility problems for games like Rez, Amplitute, and other music games that use rumble so well. Plus games like MGS that rumble to tell you when someone is near or FPSes to tell you when your getting shot in the back. I love the force feedback when you shoot a shotgun and its as loud as can be with a nice rumble in your hands. Its the one thing I miss when moving from console gaming to handheld or PC gaming. I love my 360 controller then the PS2 controller so I can't see myself liking the PS3 controller to much since its fundementaly the same design with adjusted shoulder buttons, motion sensitivity, an added button, and no rumble.

Posted: Jun 21st 2006 7:08PM Ludwig Kietzmann said

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Apologies in advance for the many hand puns and the obscure fairytale reference in this post. :)

Posted: Jun 21st 2006 7:09PM (Unverified) said

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I think land mines were detected by rumble in the Splinter Cell series. Also, in Far Cry Instincts multiplayer, when someone is fighting against a Predator the controller starts rumbling periodically. Like the water vibrations in Jurassic Park. It's those touches which are great.

Posted: Jun 21st 2006 7:36PM (Unverified) said

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I definitely want to see rumble in the PS3. To me, the rumble feature has become essential to immersion in games. Rumble isn't something you 'know' is there, but you definitely tell when it's gone. I hope Sony at least allows the PS3 to utilize rumbe. Even if their 1st party controlers will be motion-only, let the PS3 communicate with a rumble controller and let logitec or someone else develop them. If you're going to go as far as put an emotion chip in the PS3 to allow backwards compatability, support the rumble those games use. Even if Sony's worried about interference, allow the player to select rumble or motion.

Posted: Jun 21st 2006 7:41PM (Unverified) said

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"Apologies in advance for the many hand puns and the obscure fairytale reference in this post. :)"

Don't worry, noone will tell Sony you stole that controller.


As far as Rumble, it's useful for some games such as RPGs, to tell you when hidden items are near a la zelda.

Sony saying they couldn't do both is just damage control, after all a controller with motion sensing is better than a controller with no sensing and no rumble at all. I guess they had no choice but to say that.

Posted: Jun 21st 2006 7:48PM (Unverified) said

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I hope that Sony allowes Immersion's technology back into the controller and also keeps the motion sensing !!! That would make Sony's controller one step ahead of the 360's and that much different from anything else out there. The games for the playstation will be that much more unique and fun to play. I think Sony will make the right decision before launch, plus keep in mind they are still the big dogs here !!!

Posted: Jun 21st 2006 7:57PM (Unverified) said

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There's no way in hell Sony would agree to that...I mean lets all be honest here, we all know Sony, even fanboys know they'd never go for it.

But since I have the freedom to dream...I can say that if the PS3 controller had both motion sensing tech. and rumble--THAT would be the real defacto controller Sony keeps talking about(I say that because the Wiimote is an entirely new ball of wax, and I fear the unkown). PS3 would be my only next gen choice, that's how important rumble has been and is to me.

Posted: Jun 21st 2006 8:04PM (Unverified) said

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As arrogant of a company Sony is, there is still a good chance they won't pay up the fees and get it in time for launch, even though that would be the smartest thing to do. The point is, MANY people want rumble and quite a few WILL miss it. So even if there are some people who don't give a damn, Sony must still implement this feature for the majority of game players out there. Not that I care, however. Wii60 all the way!!

Posted: Jun 21st 2006 8:22PM (Unverified) said

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I never understood the big grab behind the rumble feature in controllers. It's not like it offers any real force feedback like some of the PC joysticks of yore. It just vibrates the game pad. It doesn't really offer much immersion to a game, to be honest. Rumble was cool when it first came out, but now it's just a novelty. Nothing special.

I play my 360 without rumble to save battery power, and I have never noticed a difference when playing with or without it. It's not a big deal, why can't people just get over it?

Posted: Jun 21st 2006 8:24PM (Unverified) said

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I'm deaf fella, what about both? do you realize? deaf people have to need feelng a rumble (vibrations). If without vibration when deaf people get alot confuse there is no rumble and where it hit me without vibration? i don't feel controller in though the character person body's wound touchsense! IF there is with vibration in touchsense, motion sense technology I won't confuse that's mean i would notice this health character's body wound I'll bring character get health aid! that's simple easy!...If sony don't... then deaf people not going to happy this controller without viration...but i suggest to you both sony, Immersion too. get "option on or off rumble" duh! bring both right now. b/c deaf people can confusing where it hit person's wound. well why don't you talk to them deaf people's touchsense! cause im happy this touchsense with motion sense with vibration technology...i'm dead serious I vote for touchsense, motion sense, vibration

Posted: Jun 21st 2006 8:34PM (Unverified) said

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hey joystiq....this deaf people need to vibration... both! tocuhsense is vote, motion sense is vote vibration is vote

Posted: Jun 21st 2006 8:35PM (Unverified) said

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Rumble makes a BIG difference. Racing games in general, and Forza and other "sim" games in particular, benefit from the rumble feature. I love finessing a corner, cutting just on to the raised edge of the track, and FEELING the edge between total control and a long spinning, fiberglass eating crash. I would really miss the rumble feature. Sony should just do the right thing, and pay for the feature they used without licence (like ms did).

Posted: Jun 21st 2006 8:48PM (Unverified) said

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> if anybody played table tennis on 360 lately will know how important rumble can be

Well I know for certain that now the Wii-mote is out Table Tennis with a control pad sounds strange! ;-)

Posted: Jun 21st 2006 8:49PM (Unverified) said

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And I think Immersion should start developing their own consoles and controllers instead of abusing the patent system by filing claims on ideas they have zero intention to ever bring to market themselves.

Posted: Jun 21st 2006 9:25PM (Unverified) said

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Darth, I'm not sure why you think Immersion is somehow "abusing the patent system". How? Immersion brought a product to market (the console manufacturing market, to be precise), that they presumably spent time and money developing. Then a couple of corporations, rather than developing their own product, copied Immersion's product. MS paid the licence fee to use the product (eventually). Sony has not. I only see abuse by Sony here. In all sincerity let me ask you: Why shouldn't Sony have to pay for a patented feature they didn't develop, that they included in their products?

I would say that patent law regarding AIDS medication is a travesty, but concerning video games, I'd call it business as usual.

Posted: Jun 21st 2006 9:32PM Zebura said

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I think rumble feature is really being blown out of proportion. While it's cool to have it, I just think it's pretty good marketing gimmick spread by Immersion and follow up by MS simply because PS3 now dont have it. While I am playing HALO 2 online, I prefer to turn rumble off, simply because I dont want it to shake when i'm charging plasma pistol and miss my accuracy. I once bought an Logitech iFeel mouse which powered by logitech technology and will rumble everytime i fired chain gun or getting hit. Pretty cool at first but in the end, have it off again. If rumbles are so important, Why PC gamers wouldnot adopt the rumbles features? and Why gamers still enjoy games like oblivion, far cry, counter strike, WOW when there is no rumbles at all??? So to me, It's a gimmick and 360s will continue exploit it since it dont have motion sensing.

Posted: Jun 21st 2006 9:35PM (Unverified) said

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Gotta love the fan support for the rumble feature.
We need more people to talk about this controvesy. Sooner or later Sony will give into the demand and add the rumble feature in.

The Rumble feature is definitely part of the next gen and if the Sony missed out on this one, they will certainly take a hit. Not to mention backward campatibilites (like number 6 or 7 said)

Sony better response soon to let developers the go ahead to add this feature to their game. One developer that must be waiting anxiously is Hideo Kojima. I'm sure we all remember the first MGS where he used the rumble to "flex" our arms from tapping the square button rapidly after helping snake with that torture chair scene ( or maybe its just me that remembers this :( )

Posted: Jun 21st 2006 9:50PM (Unverified) said

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I get the feeling Immersion modified their technology and sent out the press release just to make Sony's incompatibility claim look ridiculous. (Although it didn't need much help...)

Anyhow, Sony has clearly made a decision--however stubborn it is--to not pay for Immersion's technology. You'll not see them backtrack on this one, folks.

Posted: Jun 21st 2006 11:01PM (Unverified) said

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I dont know if someone already posted this but for you guys that are saying sony will be one step ahead of the 360's controler if they impliment the new technology then you my friends are wrong. I cant remember where i read it...it may have even been here but M$ is going to come out with a new controller that implements this technology...so same controller just new rumble technology

Posted: Jun 21st 2006 11:22PM (Unverified) said

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@17

Immersion never manufactured or sold any controller. They only license concepts and techology.

I doubt Sony ever copied Immersion.

They probably came up with the same idea on their own, and later found out that Immersion had filed a patent describing the same idea.

Sony decided not to pay what amount to a ransom.

They got Microsoft to cough up the cash real good, though.

Posted: Jun 21st 2006 11:38PM (Unverified) said

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Darth, how about let's change the field a bit? Let's say I, in my backyard garage, happen to invent a fuel cell that will give cars a range of 500 miles on 2 gallons of tap water. I can certainly file the patents on it, and thus own the idea, even if I don't happen to have a factory available to manufacture the darn things.

Here's another idea - instead of a mouse for your computer that uses a track ball, how about I take that mouse and instead put an optical sensor in it? It's previously existing technology - but my improvement to this technology is patentable. (I know, it's already been done, but you should be getting my point here.)

There is a reason why patent law exists - to protect the legal rights of who ever comes up with the idea in the first place. It was determined, in a court of law, that both Sony and Microsoft violated the patent ownership of Immersion. Instead of fighting it like Sony, Microsoft said, okay, our bad, here's $26 million USD and we'll also buy 10% ownership in your company, case closed. Sony took it to the next step, and so as of right now they owe Immersion $90 million USD.

The funny thing is - Immersion themselves has said that they'd help Sony with rumble. All they have to do is admit they were wrong, drop the appeal, and pay the fine. Given that if the appeal is lost, that according to the terms of the lawsuit Sony MUST stop the sale of ALL rumble games, rumble controllers, and any system that uses that technology, and COULD potentially be forced to RECALL EVERY SINGLE ONE that was ever sold - I think it'd be cheaper to pay the fine.

They're doing some seriously high stakes gambling with the future of their company on this lawsuit. It's bad enough they 'bribed' one of the inventors with $150,000 to testify against Immersion - what's worse is that they got caught and are just being stupid about it.

As for the use of rumble or not - it's game dependent, from my perspective. When I'm doing a racing or flying game, I like the rumble from the road or the firing of my machine guns. Playing golf or football, and it's no not needed.

Posted: Jun 22nd 2006 12:33AM (Unverified) said

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Big corporations like Sony have entire departments dedicated to making sure everything they do is legal. They would have known if they had thought of an already-patented idea because the lawyers they pay to find that kind of stuff out would have told them. It's just an unwillingness to pay.

And the only cool feature was force feedback. There were joysticks that were designed with it so you'd actually be given physical resistance in varying degrees depending on what game(and activity in that game) you were playing/doing. That was a cool idea. Gamepads that vibrate? Not so much. It's all just blown out of proportion and over-hyped.

Posted: Jun 22nd 2006 12:43AM (Unverified) said

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Here's the beauty part. MS may have paid the license fees, but they went ahead and purchased a portion of the company along with the payment. They then sell the 10% back and recoup all their money. So they essentially get the rumble tech included in perpetuity for nothing. Good stuff.

Posted: Jun 22nd 2006 1:36AM (Unverified) said

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damn jeffler, you beat me to it.

Posted: Jun 22nd 2006 3:07AM EdZ said

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What's hilarious is that immersion will probably try and patent (or already has) this method of using rumble and accelerometers at the same time. And all it is is the use of simple band-pass filters, which can be made and implemented by high-school students. What happened to the 'non-obvious' in patents?

Posted: Jun 22nd 2006 3:12AM (Unverified) said

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'Non-obvious' patents died when everything not obvious was already patented.

Posted: Jun 22nd 2006 3:54AM (Unverified) said

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I won't miss rumble, so I really, really don't care.

Quite honestly, I'd rather have had the batarang controller. It looked like it would have fit perfectly in my hands unlike the dualshock controller which gives me cramps while holding it. It seems to be made for pygmees. Which I am not.

Posted: Jun 22nd 2006 4:16AM (Unverified) said

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its ridge racer, RIIIIIIDGE RACERRRRRR!

Posted: Jun 22nd 2006 7:36AM (Unverified) said

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How come no one is metioning the fact that Nintendo settled, paid and is still paying royalties to immersion?Immersion patented their tech even before Sony's controllers had rumble.
Touchsense sounds to me like the next logical step for rumble,Microsoft is going to use it(seeing that they own a 10% stake in immersion). Sony will eventually include(pobably not from launch,sold spratly just like the dual stick in '97)immersion new tech simply because microsoft is going to, Sony will not want to be left behind they will try to match their rival feature for feature and the only way they can do that is to drop the appeal and pay what they owe;$90 million.
If they don't include touchsense or at least rumble how's it going to look when microsoft start playing up the 'fact' that they have touch sense

Posted: Jun 22nd 2006 8:03AM Powerlord said

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"Don't ask Sony, however, since it's a touchy subject. Currently appealing against a court ruling in favor of Immersion's claims that they treaded upon specific patents when they created the Dual Shock controllers (like the one you stole), Sony has come under some fire for dropping rumble functionality from the PS3 controller entirely."

I suggest checking the *filing* dates for the two patents Immersion is suing on.
1. 6,275,213 http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=13&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=6,275,213&OS=6,275,213&RS=6,275,213
2. 6,424,333 http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=12&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=6,275,213&OS=6,275,213&RS=6,275,213

So, what are those filing dates? September 29, 2000. When did Dualshock PSs hit the US market? 1998.

My question is... how did Sony manage to lose that lawsuit in the first place?

Posted: Jun 22nd 2006 8:05AM Camperton said

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Dropping rumble is a huge mistake. All the little things ad up. I was dead set on getting a PS3, but with no rumble and simultaneous release of GTA on both systems I'm leaning towards getting the 360 now.

Posted: Jun 22nd 2006 8:44AM (Unverified) said

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I find it interesting that whether the motion-sensing ability of the Dual Shake succeeds of fails, it is a threat to Wii.

If it succeeds, it's a competitor. If it fails (more likely), it makes ALL motion-sensing technology look bad, possibly decreasing an average consumers demand for a Wii.

The casual and non-gamers that Nintendo is trying to target who pick up a Dual Shake will become skeptical of the Wii.

Posted: Jun 22nd 2006 8:57AM (Unverified) said

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"Big corporations like Sony have entire departments dedicated to making sure everything they do is legal. They would have known if they had thought of an already-patented idea because the lawyers they pay to find that kind of stuff out would have told them. It's just an unwillingness to pay."

Just look at the guy who really invented the walkman. (clue: it wasn't Sony) and the guy almost went broke and lost everything trying to get what was rightfully his. Even though Sony was in the wrong, they actually tried to counter sue him into poverty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Pavel

Sony isn't the only company, by far, to do this. Sadly, if a company thinks it can sufficient bully a company or an inventor around, it will steal technology and dare the inventors to sue them.

From what I understand, Immersion doesn't have a patent for rumbling game controllers. It is a patent for a specific way to make the controller shake. And it doesn't matter if two people independently think up an idea. It is who patents it first.

Posted: Jun 22nd 2006 9:42AM mikko123 said

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Didn't you all catch this news already? eDimensional already implemented the Immersion technology into a motion sensing controller http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=9464

http://www.forbes.com/businesswire/feeds/businesswire/2006/05/24/businesswire20060524005947r1.html

Posted: Jun 22nd 2006 11:46AM (Unverified) said

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I agree with Thomas Crymes.
@ Powerlord:"I-FORCE is the technology unveiled by Immersion in 1995 that turns joysticks, steering wheels, and other computer peripherals into 'feel' display devices, allowing users to experience realistic touch sensations. I-FORCE is , enriching software by incorporating feel into the game play experience." and that wasn't even my quote.You should look that up.
And according to James it looks like PS3 is going to have rumble via 3rd party good find.
I think the real question now is, is this the loop hole that Sony needs to avoid paying emersion royalties on the ps3's rumble?

Posted: Jun 22nd 2006 12:09PM (Unverified) said

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All I know is that FPS will never be the same. How the hell am i going to know when I'm being shot in the back?

But I was wondering why wouldn't Immersion just colaborate with the game designers to put rumble ability and then immersion could just develop its own Rumble Controler and sell it to the masses. Hell I bet they would like that idea cause then they could just go around Sony and expand their business at the same time. What do you guys think?

Posted: Jun 22nd 2006 3:24PM (Unverified) said

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I will bet my life that the PS3 controller will have rumble in it.

Posted: Jun 23rd 2006 6:16AM (Unverified) said

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I'm more of curious if Immersion's new TouchSense technology is developed independant of Nintendo's rumble + motion-sense technology. It does sound like it was developed AFTER Nintendo's technology, which might lead to Nintendo suing Immersion instead. (assuming Nintendo bothers of cause.). Then again, it might not be similar, or Nintendo could be using Immersion's technology... but I doubt the 2nd option is correct.

Posted: Jun 25th 2006 3:57AM Armaina said

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I think it was developed with Nintendo, and possibly only publicly announced now. My theory.

Also, I think it needs to be clarified... Nintendo owns part of Immersion, and has since the inclusion of the rumble. Nintendo does things by the book, and gets their patents well before they actually use the technology, you know, like any HONEST business should.
Also... do you honestly, think Immersion would LET Sony use their new technology, since Sony still won't even admit what they did, and pay the fees? Or will be Sony be stupid enough to rip the technology again?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cOBtMMWteA
Also, PS3 'tilt' technology, is in fact, nothing new.

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