Assuming the mouthpiece behind this piece of chatter, we'll have to take this all with a grain of salt. However, IT Wire in Australia has spoken with Mark Whittard, general manager of Toshiba's Information Systems Division in Australia, about the possibility of an internal HD-DVD drive making it into next generations of the Xbox 360 before the end of the year. He is quoted as saying:"The Xbox [360] is coming out with an HD-DVD player towards the end of this year. ... I would imagine that there are plans in place to put an HD-DVD drive internally in future revisions of the product. They're not speaking about it publicly at the moment but I would expect them to do that and fairly soon."
It can be hard to imagine this becoming a reality, unless production costs are reduced dramatically sometime soon. Considering the flack Sony and the PlayStation 3 have received as far as pricing with their costly Blu-ray drive included, to have the 360 price stay the same or even inch a bit higher wouldn't be the most prudent business decision. Besides, who really needs an HD-DVD player anyway?
[Thanks, James, via Eurogamer]
[Update: GameDaily Biz spoke with an unnamed Microsoft exec who said what Toshiba's Whittard is saying simply isn't true. They quote him as saying: "We feel that offering the drive externally is the best way to give consumers the ultimate choice to create their own high definition experiences. We have no plans to release the Xbox 360 with an internal HD DVD drive."]
(Page 1) Reader Comments
The real question is
Who needs an Xbox 360 anyway?
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If they simply wanted to deliver HD, they could've released compressed movies (mp4, xvid, whatever) on regular old DVD discs and have manufacturers modify their players so they are capable of playing them back.
I wonder if this will become like the DVD+R vs. DVD-R debate, where most players will just end up doing both. I think Samsung, LG and others are already working on a combo player.
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MS is sitting in a good spot for the holidays..they dont need to mess that up with any bad press like sony has to deal with...
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Also: I'd really not want to be a publisher that's thinking of publishing a game for the 360 soon.
They will have three options:
1) Screw the people that have the core system
2) Screw the people with the premium system
3) Get on the PS3 bandwagon where at least everyone will have: a standard harddrive, a standard next generation optical storage media, and a standard "simplified" controller.
(Personally, I'd choose option 3. But then again, I'm not a publisher, but I do play a mean game of monopoly. And that's basically the same thing.)
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what are you going to say next? that ms copies sony at everything? oh wait
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As it stands, nobody would get screwed. HD-DVD and Bluray are highly over-rated. I've yet to see positive feedback about this "next generation" of movies.
Moving everyone to a hard drive is more plausible, and I think developers will be the people to force that.
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now not only do i have to wait for that, but i have to find out if this internal HD-DVD drive rumor is true and, if it is, how long i'll have to wait for it.
this is looking more and more like the console i'll be picking up this holiday season will be the Wii, with the 360 and PS3 coming perhaps next year after they've been out long enough to be suitable for purchase. that is to say, the bugs are worked out, etc.
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But if you term it as WANT, that is a very different thing. Take expense out of the picture and pretty much everybody wants a big HD screen and the equipment to put content on it, both interactive and non. What it really comes down to akin to the punchline, "We've established what kind of woman you are, now we're just haggling over the price."
Unless there is huge positive response tot he HD-DVD add-on, there just isn't much reason to do an Xbox 360 with HD-DVD built-in. It would mean yet another SKU at a higher price and make worse the expectation by some that the HD-DVD format would also be used for games. Retailers would hate the added confusion. There just isn't much of a win there.
Sony's approach is the only way to do it. For better or worse, they've committed to Blu-ray across the board as the one format for both movies and games on the PS3. If it says PS3 on the game box or Blu-ray on the movie box, it will simply work on the PS3 of either SKU. Whether Blu-ray succeeds or not, Sony has to be credited with doing some things right.
As for digital distribution, however long it takes HDTV to become standard in the households that buy the bulk of non-broadcast content, it will be far longer before broadband service measured in the dozens of megabits per second has enough reach to make disc formats a moot issue. A lot of people are still waiting for entry level broadband service to reach their neighborhood. It could be decades before any major film studio feels they no longer need organized blocks of molecules to distribute their product.
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.....That's the thing that play 8-track tapes and reel to reel audio...right?
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Supporting hard drive caching but not requiring it is standard for Xbox 360 games with very few exceptions to date. It's been working very well so far. Well enough that one can only wonder how Sony managed to screw up so badly with their PS2 hard drive support.
How does the PS3 controller qualify as 'simplified' while the Xbox 360 controller, does not? Other than still dubious tilt/motion sensing in the PS3 controlelr, they offer almost identical facilities and very similar layouts.
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Nowadays we have digital distribution for movies (legal and illegal), DVDs, rental chains, etc.
I highly doubt they will release yet another 360 which will confuse the "average joe" (non-hardcore gamer) consumer.
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I would purchase such a unit, because while I do have an HDTV, there are only so many HD inputs on this TV, and my computer and my HD Cable box already take up two, the only port left is used for the Xbox. There would not be any room for a HDDVD player (be it BlueRay or HD-DVD).
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http://gamerscoreblog.com/team/archive/2006/06/30/536031.aspx
Gamerscoreblog turned out to be useful afterall.
Edward
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Also, what about "microtransactions"? They don't seem to be installable on your memorycard. And publishers will be wanting to take advantage of that by "limiting" the initial game and the publish pricey boosters online. It is happening, and will happen even more frequently further on.
Games will come out that require the HDDVD drive. Just because microsoft promises there won't be any games like this, don't mean there won't be. Just look at their promise that no game for the 360 ever would require the harddrive.
Sure, you don't have to buy these games. But that's the whole point. The publisher just lost a customer, just because they wanted to take advantage of the next generation technology.
Regarding the controller, yes, I'm talking about the "tilt"-functions. Steve Balmer or whoever it was has said that microsoft are looking into creating a "simpler" controller, and the most logical thing is that they also add simmilar functionality.
Options for a standard controller redesign:
1) Just remove buttons or a analogue stick. Result: The FPS games are screwed.
2) Use speech recognition. Result: the technology isn't there.
3) Use brainwave-pattern-detection: Result: too expensive, bulky, and still in it's infancy.
4) Add motion sensing to the existing controller. Result: will work with existing games, will provide a great interface for many, but not all games. Can be used in some fashion i almost all games though.
5) Straight out steal the Wiimote-design. Result: Sued by Nintendo. Of course, microsoft wins and all declare that microsoft invented the Wiimote, hey, Wii stod for (Wi)ndows (i)nside, didn't it?
6) Camera and retina motion sensing. Result: May work, but will certainly not be appreciated by many, and will require radically differently disigned games.
Given those options, my bet is that they will either copy the Wiimote or just add motion sensing to their current controller just like Sony did. The technology is available, at a reasonable cost, and with the performance required to make it usefull.
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And as for MS changing optical drives NOW after the systems launch, ha fat chance.
But then again it would be kind of cool if they released a limited edition 360 with a built in HD-DVD drive 1 HDMI port and a larger HDD and price it at 499 just to spite Sony.
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In this case I would assume that it would just to add HD DVD support for movies, but not games.
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And since the HD-DVD 360 probably wouldn't see a release until around or after the PS3 launch, a person who would have been a potential 360 owner prior to such an announcement stands a very good chance of going to the competition and not buying a 360 at all.
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A. Use a bare 360, and
B. Use a 360 with HD, and
C. Use a 360 with HD-DVD, and
D. Use a 360 with HD and HD-DVD.
And somehow avoid confusing the typical customer.
The system is splintered enough. Just make it a PC already!
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Offering a lower cost of entry for those focused just on Xbox 360 games makes excellent business sense, especially since they can add the hard drive later and have everything. The only penalty is greater cost than buying the Premium package. I've spent time with several games on a Core System. It feels pretty much like using a PS2 with longer load times because of the much greater volume of data being loaded. It isn't a huge difference since the drive is much faster than the PS2 drive and developers take care to place code and in-game data in the locations that most benefit from the higher rotational speed while streaming AV material that gets no benefit from faster load rates lives on the slower tracks.
How many owners of the original PS2 model never saw fit to buy the Network Adapter? If they weren't interested in online gaming, why should they bother? If you weren't going to use online multiplayer the device was useless except for its requirement to install the HDD Kit and get full use of the tiny set of game that support it.
Developers have been dealing with these issues since the first CD-ROM games. It's pretty well established techniques.
The networking functionality is built-in on the newer PS2 design but how many buyers of that model would notice if it disappeared? The option is there for those who and those who don't aren't affected. Their PS2 is just as fun for the stuff they want to do with it.
Nor did I say the hard drive is only used for caching. You really need to pay better attention. Caching is the primary function that is transparently enabled by the presence of the hard drive. It provides an important usabilty enhancement for ALL users, including those whose Xbox 360 is not connected for online activity. It was the hard drive caching in the original Xbox that frequently caused owners of multiple platforms to favor it for multiplatform games. Even if the game was essentially identical to the PS2 version and didn't take advantage of the machine, the caching at least made it play a lot smoother.
A Core System purchaser without broadband can add the hard drive and get immediate improvement to his games load times and a nearly bottomless well for game saves. If he later gets broadband service, all the better. But the console is not crippled if those features aren't accessed.
Nor is the hard drive required for downloadable content and XBLM purchases. These work perfectly well on the memory units so long as the item in question doesn't exceed the capacity of the unit. Xbox Live Arcade games are limited to under 64MB for this reason. The upcoming 256MB memory unit will allow larger items to be acquired without a hard drive.
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/livearcade/default.htm
You assert that Xbox 360 games on HD-DVD will appear but offer no explanation. What does the publisher gain from putting a game on HD-DVD? There are two major reasons why a game could require the hard drive. First, the game generates massive amounts of persistent data based on user input. So massive that it cannot be handled on a 64 megabyte memory unit. Not a very common game design on a console. So far we just have the Football Manager 2006 game from a longtime PC series notorious for generating massive data sets. (In case you haven't heard, the claim that Ninety-Nine nights would require the drive has been debunked.)Second, the game might deal with such a massive data load that it needs the hard drive to act as fast virtual memory.
The only thing that distinguishes HD-DVD discs from the DVD media usable by ALL Xbox 360s is capacity. While some games, especially those that contain really big amounts of FMV, will appear that require a second or more DVDs, they will be the minority. As with the Final Fantasy PS1 entries, the disc changes will be minimal and once a disc is changed the game is booted from that disc thereafter. If a hard drive is detected the game might offer the option to preload the non-duplicate material from one of the discs and avoid the later disc change entirely.
Using HD-DVD could would allow for a version that doesn't require disc changes. That is all. That is the sole benefit HD-DVD can bring to Xbox 360 games. When you consider the needless confusion possible from having multiple SKUs of the same handful of games, it just isn't much of a win.
As for publishers losing customers, well, think it through more. Any game built around a non-standard controller or other peripheral is giving up some of the potential customer base. But they're trading that for customers who are highly focused on what their game offers. A light gun game require customers who either will buy a more expensive bundle of game and gun or bought the gun previously and are looking for more games to use with it. Likewise for EyeToy owners. Fishing controllers are a hard sell to most except that core audience that digs fishing games.
A game that requires the hard drive and falls into the first category above is going to appeal to those of a creative bent. IF they really prefer to do this on a console instead of on a PC, buying the hard drive isn't going to be a terrible burden. Many Core System buyers may hold off on gettimg the hard drive until just such a game appears. In which case the game is beneficial in getting the consumer to purchase a profit bearing accessory for his machine. The add-on hard drive has a substantial profit margin, much like the controllers. The Premium Systemis really a much better value but some consumers can only be reached by a sufficiently low cost of entry. For some it's $299. Eventually the Core System will reach people whose magic number is $250 and so. (Then, like PS2 buyers, they find out about the need for the memory unit.)
How is adding motion/tilt sensing to a controller simplifying it? It is otherwise the exact same unit as before: analog sticks, D-pad, face buttons, shoulder buttons and triggers. Except now, on top of all that, the game will react if the player lets his arms droop. Hardly a simplication.
Motion/tilt sensing is just another input source. It has no inherent quality of simplification by itself. THe Wii is is not just adding motion sensing to an existing controller. If you look at the Wii-mote, it has much in common with the N64 controller in regard to focusing the player's attention on a small set of inputs. There are many buttons but the four yellow face buttons are intended for camera manipulation. Most of the time the player only has to deal with A & B buttons and one shoulder button with his right hand, and D-pad/analog stick and a single button, either shoulder or Z, with his left hand. As it was intended to be used the N64 controller gave two fewer action buttons than the SNES. Things like fighting games might use the camera buttons as action buttons but that gets back to the complex layout that is offputting to many casual gamers.
The Wii-mote is similar. Although there are several buttons, the player need only focus on one thumb button and one index finger button while doing every thing else with movement and gesture. The nunchuk plug-in produces something very reminiscent of the N64. A directional input and single button for the left hand.
Nintendo is pursuing simplification through sophistication with developers responsible for making it transparent to the users. Sony is just piling on with creeping featurism.
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Not as simple as a console without the option but they learned the hard way with the first Xbox that hard drives as standard hardware are difficult to make work in the console business model. Entry level drives are already as low priced as they can get. The drive represents a permanent fixed cost. You can icrease capacity while keeping the same price but that isn't what the console market wants. It wants a decreasing cost of entry over the life of the platform. So keeping the hard drive separate or part of a high end bundle is preferable.
C and D aren't on the menu. Period. Largely because there is nearly no benefit for using HD-DVD except in very large games. The difference for developers would be trivial. It just means one big disc instead of two or more. For a game that fits within a DVD-9 it ould just mean needless added media cost. Nickels and dimes but they add up. And, yes, adding SKU for an almost non-existent benefit is not consumer friendly.
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Driving games, perfect. Flying? Perfect. Silly games that will make you swing the controller around, throw it to your mate like a hot potato or something silly like that? Endless possibilities for developers. I hope microsoft tries something simmilar.
It's not as good as the Wiimote deal, but it's getting there. And for many games, it will be good enough.
Regarding functionality additions later on in the consoles life... as you said. Sony added networking later on as a standard. Major fumble. Where's the Sony Live Arcade? The Sony Live Service? Yeah... Not there yet. Will come in PS3. Had ball. Fumbled.
Selling the Console in part with silly profitmargins on the parts. Turned out to be a nice little strategy for Microsoft. Pay $300 now, and then buy parts for $75-$200 a peice. Makes the console seem cheap, even though in order to actually use it for anything, you'll have to spend money on some "minor" upgrades here and there. Brilliant plan. It's like with the number magic stores use. $19.99 must be at least $10 cheaper than $20. (I'd call the 'average joe' a couple of names now, but i'll restrain myself)
This is where Sony perhaps should have followed microsofts example. Sell the PS3 in pieces. Games might work if you just buy the core system, but at what performance loss? Ever played Oblivion on a Core sytem 360? Yeah... I'd rather try to play it on my Macbook (not pro). Personally I'm glad that Sony did not, even if it makes them loose a hefty ammount of customers that only see the sticker price on the base system, and not what is needed around that to make it usefull.
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Fighting game DOA4 on the Xbox 360 also has gobs of FMV and doesn't stint on disc eating goodies. Yet it comes in at 6.66 GB. Itagaki made some noise about disc capacity worries but the game came in with plenty of room to spare.
The fact is that nearly all games likely to overrun a single DVD-9 are going to have some linear elements. When the point is reached where a disc change is needed the game is booted from that new disc thereafter thanks to duplication of the game code and core AV assets. (This has been common since FFVII.) The availability of the hard drive adds new options for pre-caching game elements to eliminate or reduce later disc changes.
This will create demand for larger and/or additional hard drives for the Xbox 360 rather than HD-DVD. With a multiple DVD game you remain compatible with every single unit sold to date, including Core Systems. Hard drive support offers better gameplay with the exact same retail SKU of the game. Using HD-DVD means forcing owners of the current 360 to add the HD-DVD drive. Many 360 owners would regard this as a severe impostion or simply to much of an expense. The Result is a severe limiting of the market for the game. An effect similar to the Sega CD or 32X, or worse, a 32X CD game.
The other option is to have a separate HD-DVD SKU sold alongside the regular multiple DVD version. Retailers will hate this because the same game is now consuming twice the shelf space at little benefit to sales.
Potentially, Microsoft could make HD-DVD version available by direct order on Xbox.com with some requirements to avoid angering retailers. Retailers don't want to deal with the two SKUs but they also don't want their sales cannibalized by Microsoft.
In any case, it could be a few years before Xbox 360 software presents enough multiple disc games as to make distribution via HD-DVD a real issue. Until the need can truly be demonstrated it is very unlikely they're going to change the ways things work now.
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All those who didn't care about online play were spared that expense until the time when it became trivial. Their numbers compare pretty well online usage of the Xbox but the difference is that the cost of the network capability was part of evey Xbox regardless of whether it was ever used. That isn't a critical failing if online use is a major thrust of your marketing, which it was for Microsoft, but it did contribute to the cost issues that plagued the machine.
Since Sony had less ambitious plans for the NA separately from the HDD Kit, they can be said to have gotten pretty good results. Their approach certainly made more sense than Sega's with the ill-considered choice to bundle a modem with every Dreamcast. This was premature at best for the console market and added needless expense to the machine when any rational person would have predicted relatively low usage that would have worked just as well with the modem as a separate purchase. Sega also greatly disappointed us early broadband users by their extremely poor support for their Broadband Adapter. Support for it should have been mandatory, especially considering it is a far simpler thing than dial-up connectivity within a game.
For a machine launching at the time, Sony saw it as best to offer the NA as an option for those who cared. Millions did. By the time of the PStwo things had matured to the point that having an Ethernet port or WiFi in a portable was no longer trying to push things ahead faster than the market was willing to move.
Where Sony really screwed up, and even they will admit this, was on the PS2 hard drive support. It isn't as if this was new technology nobody knew how to use. It was a standard drive of the sort that had been standardized when the PS1 was new. The only distinguishing feature in Sony's drive is custom firmware to aid copy protection. There is simply no credible reason why they couldn't have a 10 GB drive at $100 or under available at launch in the US. Support for using it for save games could have been made mandatory and no developer would have objected to the minor task. Instead, developers were given no means to do it voluntarily, nevermind go farther and provide caching support. A lot of the more elaborate stuff as seen on Xbox Live just wasn't going to happen on the SP2 because the hard drive never became real for most of the user base.
Microsoft did it right on the Xbox 360 hard drive. The drive was considered as a critical, albeit optional, part of the system and how it would be used was clearly defined early on. The hard drive was a part of the product on the day of launch, both bundled and as add-on. From the consumer perspective it just works. We're still waiting for answers on some question like when we can obtain great capacity and how that will be offered to those who already have drives.
While Microsoft defined a lot of what we now expect from online services on consoles, it cannot be said they did everything right. Many of the planned features were delayed so long they were dropped entirely for the Xbox and instead reserved for the Xbox 360. Especially the division between Silver and Gold so that people who aren't interested in online multiplayer can still receive benefits from having their Xbox connected and make purchases. As well, downloadable demos are a major sales tool that is already raising the bar forever in the short time the 360 has been around. This could easily have been done on the original Xbox with the demos deployed in the Exhibition discs and on magazine discs. XBLA on Xbox was so poorly supported that many 360 owners don't realize it predates that machine.
Yes, I've spent some time with Oblivion on a Core System. It works fine, better than some PC games I played in the past that required a hard drive. Oblivion just happens to be more enjoyable with the hard drive. Which is how it should be. High end games driving interest in high end options.
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Have you even played MGS3 Subsistence? Because in nearly every cutscene you are able to change to Snakes point of veiw by pressing R1 and also move the camera with the analog stick. This is not posible with FMV. You mentioned DOA4, this game could not be made on CD (multiple or single) witch is my point.>>>Games DO benefit from larger capasity media. What I said earlier about fighting games can also be applied to racing games and multiplayer FPSs. As a matter of fact, the only games that will logically work with multiple disks are linear games. Also what you said about using a larger 360 hard drive for multidisk games could work but it will still alienate 360 owners because everyone would have to buy the larger hard drive to play those games. This would also make the 20GB drive obsolete. Even tho that idea may be better than going HD-DVD since Blu-Ray has more support anyway. I'm just saying that games do benefit from larger capasity media and have been since the beginning of console gamming.
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There is absolutely no reason why a game for a console should ever exceed 9 GB in the present generation with present hardware, except in the cases of long linear storylines and FMV (ALA FF anything).
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