Immersion's overly biased, pro-PS3 rumble survey
The recent thorn in Sony's side, Immersion, has set up a 12-question online poll to gauge the public's opinion on the PlayStation 3 controller's lack of rumble capabilities. The survey is flawed in many regards, including loaded questions and the ability to take the poll multiple times.One question bothered us in particular: If you owned both an Xbox 360 with rumble and a PS3 console without any rumble capability, and a game came in both versions, which one would you buy? If we are to assume graphics, online play, and all other factors are identical, and therefore inconsequential to our response, it would be wise to state that.
It seems Immersion would like to use the results of the survey to lobby Sony to add its rumble technology to the PS3 controller. However, they might want to consider commissioning a fairer poll.
Avid PlayStation 3 supporter and Metal Gear creator Hideo Kojiima opined that he would like to see the PS3 controller, at the very least, have rumble as an optional feature one could turn off. Immersion has recently revealed TouchSense vibration technology that they claim works alongside the PS3's motion sensor capabilities.
[Thanks, Angelcurio]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Ethan @ Jul 6th 2006 3:37PM
screw immersion, if they want rumble in the PS3 controllers, then they are going to have to lift the 90 million dollar lawsuit, not send out a poll.
Pip @ Jul 6th 2006 3:42PM
I dont think I could imagine playing a console game with no rumble. I forgot what it was like. I'll have to turn it off next time im playing Oblivion and see if I even notice.
Cabcru @ Jul 6th 2006 3:47PM
With antics like this and all the smug press releases, Immersion are doing wonders to counter Sony's negative image at the moment. You almost feel sorry for Sony with Immersion prancing round like cock of the walk.
harry bowles @ Jul 6th 2006 3:48PM
who really cares if the game is good enough right nintendo they are gonna play it with or witout a rumble remeber the wavebird that was the best controller to come out for a system and i use that over anyother controller
Fenris @ Jul 6th 2006 3:49PM
Setting aside a 90million dollar judgement is not an option. Sony was in the wrong regarding the rumble and should pony up.
It is a given that this poll is stupid, however most polls are inherently biased to bring out the desired response.
The real issue is, should there be rumble. I think yes. Granted it has not been used to the lengths it could be, but taking a step back and removing an existing gameplay "tool" is usually not a good idea.
In this case Sony should probably bit the bullet and provide the rumble.
KawF @ Jul 6th 2006 3:56PM
What I'm wondering is, how did Immersion solve that nasty little problem that rumble will most certainly affect any accelerometers in the controller being used to measure how you move it through physical space, not just tilt it.
Does their technology use some type of filtering mechanism. Does it use realtime calculated data from the vibrator in order to remove the noise from the signals the accelerometers produce (which are interpreted as movement).
Because both ways of doing it would in my opionion cause quite a bit of accuracy problems unless they have some amazingly good tech.
Both solutions if done wrong, would cause percieved lag from when you as the player move or tilt the controller, and to when the system can respond with the same movement. Both may also cause the system to misinterpret or actually miss crucial information and interfere with the control.
I at least don't want the control of games feel like I'm trying to struggle against "inertia" or bad controls when playing. The input interface (the console controllers) are bad enough as it is.
riffgod @ Jul 6th 2006 3:59PM
This coming from Joystiq, the king of unfair and one-sided online polls.
Yes, the poll is biased as are about 90% of online polls.
Do they have a point? Of course they do.
Should they try to make that point known to preserve future rumble capabilities and moreover to benefit themselves as a company? Why wouldn't they?
Momus @ Jul 6th 2006 4:01PM
I was watching Matchpoint the other day, and it wasn't until after the movie that I learned Woody Allen still films all of his movies in monaural sound.
In short: force feedback is like surround sound.
RazorElite @ Jul 6th 2006 4:03PM
The poll is dumb. Sony is dumb. If they don't wanna pay up the $90 mill, screw them. PS3 is sucking enough whether it has rumble or not. Maybe someday Sony'll wake up and realise it's not about them, it's about the consumer.
Jake @ Jul 6th 2006 4:04PM
I don't think that rumble actually affects the tilt sensors. I mean, Sony would say that's why there controller lacks rumble whether it did or didn't affect it. Not calling them liars, but it is possible.
The $90 million shouldn't effect their decision to go on without rumble. That money is gone. If it is worth it to put rumble in their controller from now on, they should. But, they have to pay immersion to do it.
Personally, rumble isn't a deal breaker in the least. It is nice, though, when used properly.
KawF @ Jul 6th 2006 4:07PM
Actually, my aunt always used to say:
force feedback is like a box of chocolates...
(I still consider "force feedback" to be a really lousy gimmic. What "force feedback"? how is the controller vibrating, force feedback?)
crono141 @ Jul 6th 2006 4:07PM
I used to think it would be hard to not have rumble, but its really not so bad.
I've been playing GC with wavebirds for at least a year now (no rumble). I missed it at first, but now I don't even really care.
BTW, immersion is suing Sony because Sony infringed on its patents. For as pissed off as people get around here over consumers violating copyright, I would think that would mean a little more than the "immersion is just being assholes" attitude.
Sony is the assholes, and I hope they lose their appeal and each and every PS2, dual shock controller, and GAME with dual shock vibrations gets pulled, never to be sold until sony settles with them.
Arrogant bastards, Sony!
Staticneuron @ Jul 6th 2006 4:10PM
The only game that I have played that actually used rumble in a productive way was metal gear solid. You would become jittery while using the sniper rifle and the rumble would increase in speed. Other than that I have played alot of games that used a rumble feature and an equal amount that didn't use it.I know I might miss it for MGS and maybe the sequel to Shadows of the colossus. In my opinion rumble isn't really "needed" and doesn't deserve the fuss.
KilgoreTrout XL @ Jul 6th 2006 4:14PM
"Tell us what game(s) you play that just wouldn't be the same without rumble and why."
I don't even think this poll makes an attempt to hide which side it's on, so it bothers me much less than you folks at Joystiq.
In my book, rediculous, flagrant and near humorous bias is much better than subtly leading your test audience while representing that you're a neutral party.
JimmyHACK @ Jul 6th 2006 4:14PM
credit to joystiq for the fair report, and credit to people noticing that noone even notices rumble while playing games anymore....
this looks like someones scared they gonna lose a bunch of sales so trying to get sony on board some way or another.....
my big guess would be we'll see rumble maybe even at launch, but like i said 99.9% of people don't even notice or care about rumble when playing a game.....
Indiana Jones @ Jul 6th 2006 4:17PM
I hope in the same way that the negative response to the Boomerang prompted the return to Dual Shock, the negative response to lack of rumble will result in rumble feature. The Xbox fan boys would be in tears too as its one less thing to try and pick holes in.
Staticneuron @ Jul 6th 2006 4:28PM
Crono, Immersion settled on a general use patent.
"The case focused on US patents 6,275,213 and 6,424,333, which cover "haptic feedback" - specifically, the use of computer-controlled vibrating motors to provide tactile feedback to the user of a program."
So if a controller responds to any visual cue on a television or monitor, that falls into thier domain. I dont know if that sounds good to you. From What I have heard Sony's API for dual shock is not even compatible with immersion's let alone even written in the same language. Not to mention the handlers are not similar.
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't this situation just as Lame as me a company patenting showing telephone numbers on a TV as means to generate revenue then turns around and sues the Home shopping network.
saidnamyzO @ Jul 6th 2006 4:29PM
KawF:
nintendo did it.
Fenris @ Jul 6th 2006 4:29PM
JimmyHACK,
I always notice the rumble. Being shot in Halo or feeling the vibration when shooting. Also in driving games when you are sliding, it was even fun in Links when playing on-line you could taunt your opponet by causing their controller to vibrate during a putt.
Just because many people are used to a technology does not mean that they don't notice it when playing. It means that it has become acceptabe and a reliable physical indicator of the action on the screen.
bounchfx @ Jul 6th 2006 4:35PM
yeah, after thinking for a couple seconds, I have come to realize having rumble in their controllers will not make their lack of appealing games any more appealing... or something. and it wont lower the price. thats for sure.
Ptaaty @ Jul 6th 2006 4:46PM
KawF,
Besides the obvious nintendo did it, the speed of motion by vibration feedback and human input is an order of magnitude or more different in input frequency or acceleration.
Filtering would be relatively easy.
TC @ Jul 6th 2006 4:46PM
Pro Evo Soccer doesn't have rumble at the mo, and I think to notice not having rumble you would have to play the two versions straight after each other. Rumble isn't used very wisely in most games, to be honest. A vast majority of developers lazily use the function as a bass sound effect (ie: explosions, car engine etc.) and therefore the rumble sensation can be simulated (albeit more costly) by getting a good subwoofer for your sound setup.
The problem lies in games where rumble is used more intelligently (MGS, SplinterCell) - How is the PS3 going to be backward compatible with MGS3, where the rumble is fundamental to game progress (The sonar detector, I think, used the rumble to simulate proximity)?
I still think that Sony are using threat of no rumble, and hence no royalties, to pressure Immersion to drop the lawsuit. I won't be surprised if a mysteriously high quality 3rd party rumble pak for the USB port is announced, or if 3rd party game pads with rumble get more support from Sony.
crono141 @ Jul 6th 2006 4:47PM
I thought the patent in question was specific on how the rumble was produced in the controller.
And if this were the case, Nintendo would have gotten sued as well, which didn't happen because Nintendo came up with their own solution for producing rumble.
Ptaaty @ Jul 6th 2006 4:48PM
Rumble is very effectively used in most x360 games. Even table tennis with the feedback speed letting you know how much you are pushing it. With time vibration feedback has gone from what I considered more a gimmick to a integral part of the experience. In the case of table tennis, you couldn't actually play worth a crap without it.
funkonaut @ Jul 6th 2006 5:01PM
Wow. I must be the only GCN user that ditched my Wavebird for the standard controller because I missed rumble so much. Especially in Zelda: Wind Waker. The rumble helps in locating buried secrets.
Plus, the RF in the Wavebird is crap. Sometimes it misses your input, and it always seems to happen when you're in the middle of a fire fight. Good thing the Wiimote uses Bluetooth.
LK @ Jul 6th 2006 5:15PM
If you think Immersion screwed Sony with its patent business, look up Andreas Pavel.
I'd say Sony is getting what they deserve.
Camperton @ Jul 6th 2006 5:32PM
I was on the fence about wether to get a 360 or PS3 (leaning toward PS3), but the lack of rumble has convinced me to get the 360.
jgurka @ Jul 6th 2006 5:34PM
For those of you saying you won't even notice, try playing any game that uses it to indicate you of something with it off. It's actually more boring in my opinion without the rumble feature. It's not an integral part of the gameplay (for the most part, unless it's something like Rockstar's Table Tennis as stated above), but it gives you more of a connected feel to the game. I think they should just spend the money and put it in the controllers.
Camperton @ Jul 6th 2006 5:41PM
I just want to ad that Sony's stubborness annoys me. They are crippling their own system, cheating gamers and long time supporters over a measly 90 million. In the long run of the PS3's life span that will be pocket change. They should bite the bullet and restore full functionality.
What's more important to them, spiting Immersion or giving the consumers what they want?
Brock @ Jul 6th 2006 6:01PM
Immersion is getting nervous and running out of ideas. They KNOW they are going to lose millions and millions of sales over the next 4-7 years without Sony using their products. Think how much royalties they make in ever controller boxed WITH a ps3 as well as all the other ones that are sold for additions or replacements. They really want sony back.
Cage @ Jul 6th 2006 6:16PM
To Kawf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cOBtMMWteA&e
Not only can it be done but it already has been done.
Cage @ Jul 6th 2006 6:20PM
To people posting backing Sony for their decision...DO YOU OWN STOCK?!? How in the hell as a gamer would you be happy a feature is left out. This makes no sense. If I were a fanboy of the PS3 or not I would want rumble in it (just proved it can be done with tilt).
carlos @ Jul 6th 2006 6:42PM
Andreas Pavel (born in 1945) is a German inventor who is the 'father' of the portable personal stereo cassette player, better known as the Walkman. Pavel invented his device, the stereobelt, in 1972, and over the next few years, tried to interest companies like Grundig, Philips, and Yamaha in manufacturing it. In 1977, Pavel filed a patent in Italy on the device, followed by patents in the United States, Germany, England, and Japan.
In 1979, Sony began selling the popular Walkman, and in 1980 started legal talks with Pavel regarding a royalty fee. In 1986 Sony finally agreed to pay royalties to Pavel, but only for sales in Germany, and only for a few models, and refused to acknowledge him as the inventor of the device.
In 1989, Andreas Pavel started new proceedings, this time going through the law courts in the UK. Seven years later, the case was dismissed and Pavel was left with $3.6 million dollars worth court costs to pay. Then in 2001, Pavel threatened Sony with legal suits in every country in which he had patented his invention. The corporation agreed to resume talks with Pavel and a settlement was finally reached in 2003.
The exact settlement fee is a closely guarded secret but European press accounts said that Pavel received a cash settlement for damages in excess of $10,000,000 and is now also receiving royalties on some Walkman sales. The settlement also includes a clause which will prevent Pavel from bringing future law suits. The settlement grants Pavel the recognition from Sony that he was the original inventor of the Walkman; this apparently could only be achieved after the death of Akio Morita, the founder of Sony and previously-recognised creator of the personal stereo.
Sony is getting wat they deserve!!!!!!!!!!! end of discussion
bazald @ Jul 6th 2006 7:18PM
I would claim that force feedback has not been implemented in a truly meaningful way in most controllers. Racing wheels on the other hand, have gone so far as to have the wheel try to turn on its own - a relatively significant version of force feedback.
If joysticks began moving around on their own, I would be impressed. As the PS3 controller looks to have the same two joysticks as the PS2 controller, I'd love to see them push back in certain games. Vibration? Meh.
catalyn @ Jul 6th 2006 7:36PM
I'm deaf guy. I need vibration. just easy option on or off like xbox360 and nintendo did!. what's wrong you both sony and immersion?
AT @ Jul 6th 2006 7:46PM
Of course Having FF is better than without. I don't know if it is a deal buster,
but I would much rather have it. Especially in Madden games , or any driving
game like GT. It is an important of sense, not as important as the visuals but
it certainly makes the game more real...... they claim it has been improved.
Is this true? Some of you cats that claim it is worthless must be Sony employees
or something.
JJ @ Jul 6th 2006 8:23PM
While vibration on a controller is a lovely feature, its hardly a deal breaker i feel, unless of course the game in question requires it.
Otherwise as someone who plays many games across all platforms most of the time in the same day, i rarely notice the loss on some of my wireless controllers (like my logitech PS2 controller and Wavebird).
It IS a nice feature, but hardly a deal breaker for me.
dsgamer13 @ Jul 6th 2006 10:44PM
Ok guys, the patent I believe they are fighting over is about using TWO rumble motors, one on each side of the controller, and stimulating them separately (SP?). AKA, making the left side of the controller rumble more than the right and vice versa. Hence "DUAL Shock". Not Single Shock, Dual Shock. Two motors. Microsoft uses this too which is why they were sued, but Nintendo doesn't, so no suit there.
Canadian Geese @ Jul 6th 2006 11:10PM
I would not enjoy the types of games Sony is trying to make if they didn't have rumble. Call me shallow, but it's true.
No rumble on a quick game, or retro game... no big deal.
No rumble on a game that is supposed to have suspense, drama, and/or horror removes the sense of touch, bringing the game down to 2 of 5 senses.
Rumble absolutely matters. It definitely does put you farther into the game. There is no question about that.
Whether you WANT to get deeper into a video game is another question altogether.
Eric @ Jul 6th 2006 11:34PM
Ugh, dsgamer13-
You might want to actually read up on what the patent states, because your assessment is way off. It has nothing to do with the number of motors in the controller. Immersion has already stated that they aren't sure how the Wii controller works, and they will be assessing it in the future...ie they might be suing them again.
As far as the PS3 goes, I think it’s funny that immersion is kissing so much Sony ass and trying to get them to use their technology. Immersion will be wondering why they fussed so much when PS3 sales fizzle out after the initial launch…
Powerlord @ Jul 6th 2006 11:58PM
Since people don't listen, I'll bring this up again. And again. Every time the issue of Immersion vs. Sony comes up.
Sony was sued with two US patents that were FILED FOR two years after the PS Dual Shock came out in the US. The aforementioned patents were granted another 3 years after that. If Sony can be sued using these patents, their controllers are also PRIOR ART for the same patents, and thus the patents should be invalidated.
How Sony managed to lose in court, let along twice, I have no idea.
KawF @ Jul 7th 2006 12:41AM
@Cage#31
What I see there is something that at least looks like he turns the controller, and a second almost after, the game reacts. That's simply not acceptable.
KawF @ Jul 7th 2006 12:48AM
@'A-bunch'
The Wiimote which has the rumble feature, does it allow you to use the rumble feature while it is in motion sensing mode (using accelerometers) or only in the mode where the sensor strip using IR on the TV is used?
Official facts only, and please provide a link, I'm interested in reading more. :)
n8dogg @ Jul 7th 2006 1:36AM
Powerlord -
Knowing our "technicality-centric" justice system, probably by some loophole somewhere or another. Maybe this is for the Dual Shock 2 rather than the Dual Shock? Either way, inventing something, filing a patent, then never doing shit with it besides suing the people who do is something that I don't really respect.
Brian @ Jul 7th 2006 2:00AM
I don't think rumble matters that much. I mean I still prefer playing games on the PC which does not provide a rumble feature.
spencer @ Jul 7th 2006 2:50AM
what people fail to realize is you can talk smack all you want till the cows come home. Your not doing anything to change the minds of others PS3 will sell out and keep selling out of its products that will not change. Keep talking but your wasting your time really waisting it. Mabey the people talking about the price should stop going online and make some real money lol.
HAHAHA @ Jul 7th 2006 2:56AM
another comment to add to that if your online talking junk yeah maybe you should be on monster jobs or something. If you know a system is coming out that far in advance and you cant pay for it then yeah you need a new job.
Patrick @ Jul 7th 2006 3:37AM
I think that since rumble/FF has been with consoles since the Nintendo 64 days, it should be a mandatory technology in future consoles.
Hell, Rumble/FF is more important than High Definition.
Max Howell @ Jul 7th 2006 6:08AM
If I punched my mate in the face, I wouldn't be too surprised if he didn't invite me to his wedding.
You have to bare the cross that you give to yourself Immersion, you dumbos.
niels @ Jul 7th 2006 6:49AM
HERES AN IDEA: let users rumble the controller themselves! You can use the motion technology to find out how hard they rumble and use it as a force in the game! imagine you hit with a sword against a stone wall and then need to rumble the controller to enhance the power of your hit! its like...force feed forward, or something...