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Reader Comments (17)

Posted: Jul 19th 2006 10:30AM (Unverified) said

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I like how you and Jen have teamed up for some great posts...

I guess I like a balanced game, but not to the point where it is routine and predictable. I like new challenges, but I also like to feel that I am growing my character.

hmmm... I guess I like a balance of balanced and unbalanced gameplay. (help I confused myself)

Posted: Jul 19th 2006 10:34AM (Unverified) said

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Repost! Oh wait I should be ashamed....

Battletoads - N.E.S.

I think I am in favor of a little imbalance as it keeps you on your toes. I enjoy the sense of accomplishment when something overly hard arises out of place and when I am expecting something really hard and it's just a button combo (RE4), that's a nice relief. As long as things are not predictable.

But honestly who beat level 2 (the racing level, may have been 3) in Battletoads? Am I the only person who thinks this was a needlessly difficult level at the beginning of the game, or am I about to be thrown under a bus by the gaming community?

Posted: Jul 19th 2006 10:35AM (Unverified) said

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Your last paragragh had good points about balanced games, but the first two only focused on why COD isnt balanced. I understand that you were taking his example and trying to prove how he was wrong, but a majority of you article should have been written about why balance should stay and not on how COD was actually unbalanced.

Posted: Jul 19th 2006 10:51AM PetriesLastWord said

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As much as I love retro games, that sort of balance doesn't have much of a place in modern gaming. Imagine how boring a game like God of War would have been had the developers not thrown in the occasional floor spikes of death puzzle or Minotaur to throw you for a loop. Those moments are what make gaming great.

Even a lot of older games would do this. Anyone remember in Final Fantast 2(the Japanese 4) when Golbez attacks you with his dragon, and the entire party is auto killed except your main character. Then Rydia shows up with a Summon to save the day, but you're still forced to battle this boss with most of your party dead from the start, and a very low level Rydia. These are the moments that make you feel accomplished when you are able to take them on.

There is still a place for balances games where the difficulty merely increases though. Look at Guitar Hero; one of the most fun games in the past few years, yet all it does it ramp up the difficulty of the same songs, which you in turn play over and over again. The formula works here. Developers just need to learn in what types of games balance is great fun.

Posted: Jul 19th 2006 10:55AM Antibot said

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Business Week has some quotes about Jonathan Smith's point of view on the matter.

http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/jul2006/id20060717_278706.htm

First of all, I don't see how you can defend Call of Duty 2 by only mentioning Call of Duty 1. However, I've played neither, so maybe they are similar enough to use interchangeably.

I don't think Smith is talking about story at all. His specific argument is that games are always set to about medium difficulty. He feels they should be too hard at some points and too easy at other points. The level of difficulty should be used for effect and that game mechanic isn't being taken advantage of.

Here is how Jesper Juul explained the argument for unbalanced:

"As I recall, the basic argument is that as a player I should first try something very hard, and then a bit later get the experience that a challenge has become easy because of my newly acquired skills."

I agree with that. There is so little achieved for a player's perspective. I rarely feel as if I've gotten better at a game. Even if that feeling is designed into the game, it should be there.

I haven't played Geometry Wars proper, but I played the PC knockoff Grid Wars and after the first few million points, the game becomes pretty easy. As you play, the multiplier increases and you get more bombs and extra lives. I feel those changes, mostly the multiplier, makes the game easier after a while. After a certain point, after new enemies stop appearing and my score increases dramatically with less effort than before, the game gets less enjoyable.

However, that's only true of one session. I can go back after a few days and enjoy the game again. Also, since this is a PC knockoff, it isn't on Xbox Live, so I don't have access to the scoreboard, which could potentially motivate me to play further.

Smith brings up RPGs where the enemies gain levels with the player. The only game I can think of like this off the top of my head is Final Fantasy VIII, which I didn't like for that specific reason. No matter how many levels you gained, the enemies stayed at the same level. The best way to play that game was to avoid all battles. It doesn't make sense for a game to discourage you from playing it.

I prefer to have some difficult enemies sprinkled in the games. I'm all for bosses that become notorious for their difficulty, like the ones in that Gamestop feature last week.

I think adding portions where the game is too difficult followed by portions where it is too easy adds depth to the game, and creates a feeling of accomplishment.

Posted: Jul 19th 2006 11:01AM PetriesLastWord said

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To: Probot

I couldn't finish FF 8 for just that reason. RPG games have to have a sort of unbalance to them, otherwise the entire leveling up process becomes pointless. I ended up having the same problem with Tactics Ogre: The Knight of Lodus for the GBA. The enemies leveled up with me throughout the entire gaming, making it so that when I did hit a random encounter, I'd just shut off my system and re-load my game in order to avoid the encounter entirely. I still wanted to finish the story, but my enjoyment was made much less because of this flaw.

Posted: Jul 19th 2006 11:06AM (Unverified) said

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As I grow older, I have less and less patience for games with very difficult segments. Basically, I pay 50 or 60 bucks to enjoy the experience of game, not to see how far I can throw a wireless controller.

This is true for all games except those that are geared around technique and execution like Geometry Wars or Tetris or fighting games.

Story based games are different. No boss should ever prevent me from moving forward. It's OK to have a figure out a weakness or a technique, but I shouldn't have to die 100 times trying to figure it out or worse, die a 100 times after figuring out what I need to do, but can't quite execute.

On some games I want a scaled difficulty. Ideally something that matches my skill level and challenges me at the right times.

Give the players who want the difficulty an assortment of acheivements as recognition for mastering a challenging obstacle. For the rest of us, just let us by.

Posted: Jul 19th 2006 11:15AM (Unverified) said

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"Balance" is kind of a loaded term - what comes to my mind when you use the term is balance in multiplayer games or games in which the pros and cons are weighed with multiple characters/ styles/ abilties/ powerups, etc.

My most rewarding gaming experiences are those which ramp up gradually over the course of the game with intermittant difficulty spikes (bosses and big-accomplishment plot points). I think that many players, in addition to the other psychological rewards in games (avatar progressing, plot line advancing), want to feel as though their skills are improving as the game moves forward.

This seems to be basically what you guys are talking about here, but I'm not quite certain what your specific stances are. Does advocating "anti-balance" mean that one would prefer that a game's difficulty doesn't gradually increase? Does advocating "balance" mean that one would prefer that a game retain identical gameplay with the same difficulty level throughout the course of the game?

Posted: Jul 19th 2006 11:18AM PetriesLastWord said

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@7 Though I understand your frustrations, I have to disagree with you. Without challenge in a story-based game, all you have is a novel, on disc format. The challenge of earning the next part of the story is what draws many of us to these types of games.

There are many more great stories to be had in book format, but the level of interaction and the surprise challenges are what make gaming different. Don't ask developers to take that away any more than they already have in order to help gaming become more mainstream. Those kind of challenges and boss fights which make me actually have to think and strategize are what I want to encourage more of from developers. Without challenge, it becomes just a book.

Posted: Jul 19th 2006 11:54AM (Unverified) said

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well, that is true, however there are other games such as final fantasy tactics on PS, the fact that the enemies leveled up to match your level kept the game well balanced and they threw in a few really tough battles here and there with new enemies often enough to keep the game fresh as well as challenging.

[i still remember losing fiftyeleven-some battles with a barbarian knight with a blood sucking sword]

Posted: Jul 19th 2006 12:40PM Pal said

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I don't see why this is even a question for debate. We need both balanced and unbalanced games to keep entertained.

Sure, it's fun to play a game with varied difficulty throughout, but I would get fairly annoyed getting used to level 8 Tetris and then being knocked down to level 2 just to "mix it up."

The discussions are nice and interesting, but I don't see how this can reach a satisfactory conclusion. Not that it matters in the long run (we don't have the power to change games this drastically), but ah, this is what separates us from the beasts.

Posted: Jul 19th 2006 12:56PM (Unverified) said

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It's not a book, its an interactive story where you play the hero.

I think the story should have challenging aspects to it, but I think the player should choose the level of challenge they want. As I said before, I'd love it if the game could gauge how much challenge I want as a gamer.

I enjoyed Half-Life, but had no patience in jumping from platform to platform in Zen. In Halo there were many instances where you were just making your way through hordes of enemies only to die just a before a checkpoint. Save. Repeat. Save. Repeat.

I just want to have fun, and I don't want a game to tell me I can't go further just because I don't care to figure out that I have to hit the boss on its left knee cap with the laser rifle 37 times.

Posted: Jul 19th 2006 3:02PM (Unverified) said

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There are alot of genres out there in which the games pretty much play the same and I think that rather then saying that balance (in terms of difficulty) is the reason people get bored with these titles, we should be asking ourselves about the quality and originality of what's be presented to us.

Most titles within in a genre of gaming build upon previous, related games. Think of shooters. Fundamentaly, the mechanics and controls of shooters probably haven't changed much within the last ten or so years. Most shooters have a foundation in games like Wolf 3D, Doom or Quake. We're, for the most part, still using the same control schemes, the same linear progression and even the same weapons. I think that game developers always try to think of new things to put in shooters and occasionally they make things interesting but really, it often feels like icing on the cake. New shooters are always promised to have great physics, better graphics and (my personal favorite) smarter AI. Then things are thrown in like fully destructable environments, maybe a sweet weapon (like the gravity gun), vehicles and then multiplayer (which in fairness, is a whole other experience). So, is balance really an issue when we're playing the same games over and over again?

Look, how many GTA clones are there out there? How many games promise free roaming environments where a player can do what they want, when they want? How many platformers out there aren't employing the same mechanics as Prince of Persia or even Super Mario 64? And I think now that franchises are the hot thing, how different is one game compared to it's sequels? Maybe we're getting bored because we're playing the same games over and over again.

Posted: Jul 19th 2006 4:42PM (Unverified) said

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It's interesting in that I've not heard the word "balance" used in this way with video games before. In the past balance has meant character balance. For example, in Phantasy Star Online it doesn't matter if you choose to play as a Hunter, Ranger or Force, each of the characters is capable of finishing the game, it's balanced.

I think the term originated with fighting games. If any character in the game can win then it's balanced. If one character has an unfair advantage then it's unbalanced.

In this scope of the definition then I'd say balance is a requirement. But then I'm an old gaming fogey who still remembers a time when Street Fighter II had to be played in an arcade so what do I know? :^)

Posted: Jul 19th 2006 6:13PM (Unverified) said

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"Final Fantasy VIII, which I didn't like for that specific reason. No matter how many levels you gained, the enemies stayed at the same level. The best way to play that game was to avoid all battles. It doesn't make sense for a game to discourage you from playing it."

Not really the player in the end still had the edge, because of the magic that you could attach to your character and certain "limits" or abilities that you had. Also you could stumble across certain items that give you abilities and recoveries that the enemies didn't have. The increadibly cheap auto-limit on Irvine is what I used to beat the game.... And I do not feel ashamed to say that.

Posted: Jul 19th 2006 6:55PM (Unverified) said

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What I like best is a balance of balance. You don't make it completely impossible for a player who enjoys unbalanced games to unbalance your game, but you don't ruin the fun of the person who is obsessed with balanced gameplay.

Posted: Jul 20th 2006 11:48AM kelekod said

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Here's a good idea. There should be an option that toggles balance. If that's too hard, make 2 copies of the game. Basically for multiplayer, some players will have advantages (starting location /resources /power) while others will start average, or even at a disadvantage. These advantages could be at random, or perhaps chosen. Single player could work similiarly. 1 map/level you can start with nothing, others you may start with the best weapon/troops. It would make all gamers happy. If someone wanted a true challenge, the unbalanced game could provide that. If someone wanted the straight-forward / fair game, that option was available.

As for the unbalanced game, unexpected battles (enemies far stronger than you) may randomly show up and defeat you, or more bad guys appear randomly and the best weapon/troops may not always be available.

How's that for a good game?

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