Apple, ATI, and the future of Mac gaming

Apple should just give everyone a free XBOX 360 with the purchase of a Mac. :)

I don't think Apple really cares much about gamers, or else they wouldn't require you to spend $1500 to buy a Mac with a graphics card - or bury their gaming page on their web site.

How does changing the company that makes the GPU make any difference? Especially concerning "Mac gaming?" Games aren't really made for a specific GPU, so it isn't like companies are going to have to recode anything, and Apple was free to use nVidia this whole time. I don't get it.

What Apple gaming?

Sure they can have decent graphics cards but that doesn't automatically mean that all the developers will go out and buy Macs too. Just about all the programs developers use are on PCs or have PC versions.

Plus it's way cheaper to either purchase or build PCs which means less cost for the developer/publisher.

The most Apple gaming will get is the Apple crowd using Boot Camp and all those people really play are older or more simplified puzzle games.

As far as I know both ATI and nVidia GPUs use PCI-Express interface so why does this make a difference to Apple?

I have been going to Macworld Expo since the 80's, and no... Jobs doesn't... and NEVER will care enough about gaming.

I love my G5. I love OSX. I love pretty much anything Apple. But I wouldn't use a Mac as a gaming platform. That's not their primary function, nor is it what they were intended to be used for. Macs are for creating, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

If you love PC gaming, buy Alienware.

Whoah, I'm seeing an awful lot of assumptions flying around here. Before I get started with any debating, I'd like to point out that I do NOT currently own a Mac, but have three PCs in the household. This is more a matter of expediency (hard to find Macs in this area) than anything else.

Now, up until a few years ago, when my venerable machine finally kicked the bucket, I was an avid Mac gamer. You read that right. While I played a lot of older games (like the old TIE Fighter series, emulated consoles, etc), I also enjoyed quite a few modern games, such as Q3, UT, and the myriad Blizzard games.

Fact of the matter is that, while not a very outspoken market, there are in fact Mac gamers. And games for the Mac. In fact, quite a few excellent games are Mac first or Mac only, though these fall into the category of shareware. You remember shareware, right? Try before you buy?

Moving on.

Apple has been a fairly big supporter of ATI chips in the past, and only more recently started shipping with nVidia cards, mostly because nVidia finally decided to make Mac drivers. Arguing over which would be a better partner for Mac gaming is essentially like arguing over which vendor is better in the first place... largely irrelevent. Intel isn't likely to lock out ATI for the simple fact that they'd be limiting the choices of their consumers, and darn it, a lot of PC gamers like to have choices in their builds!

In the end, Apple will likely support both chipsets regardless, so long as drivers are continually being made for the systems. While gaming might not be forefront in their minds, they DO have their reasons (read: graphics, kinda the Mac thing).

Just bein' a voice of reason.

@GSI

What the heck are you talking about? It is way cheaper to build or purchase PC's which means the developing costs will be cheaper? I am sure that developers aren't using Dell desktops to make games. Get real.

In case you missed the loop, many games are made for the Mac. Check out www.apple.com/games. Boot camp is a better solution since most games are uber optimized for DirectX and not OpenGL which Macs have to use. If MS ever puts DirectX on a Mac, there is no justifiable reason aside from developer support(which as you should see from going to that site, isn't lacking) for the Mac not to be a viable platform.

I don't think the merger between ATI and AMD means much for Apple. The only thing I could forsee is if AMD strike the hammer and keep ATI exclusively on AMD chips. In which case Intel has no choice but to license to Nvidia. As far as I know Intel doesn't like Nvidia much, which could cause problems.

Integrated graphics for everyone!

There's not a lot that "Jobs & Co." can do if developers just keep cranking out buggy ports. If developers started caring about Mac gaming, then maybe something would change. My G5 is more than able to handle current games, if only the software was up to par.

Mac gamers?
good one xD

"If you love PC gaming, buy Alienware."

If you love being ripped off, buy Alienware.

@ Kevin:

Hey Kevin...guess what? You are trying to say that games on the mac matches the amount on the PC? Are you kidding? Plus where did I say that there were no games on the Mac? I know that there are _SOME_ games for the Mac but that number is VERY low.

And "integrated graphics for everyone"? Only someone who doesn't know anything about computers would say such a thing or someone who doesn't really play games that much.

As for developers using Dells...guess what? Some actually do. Some use Alienware systems, some use smaller computer shops and some have an IT department big enough to have them built in-house. I work in the industry and have PLENTY of friends working throughout the industry...hell my g/f even works in the industry right now.

@Kevin

Having worked in IT at games companies, I can confirm that yes, most buy from the big companies (Dell & HP mainly) because why on earth build from scratch when you can buy in bulk with an SLA & warranty?

Mac gaming?? HAHAHAHAHAHA!! Just one reminder: Pippin.

Bah, I dont see why they even use ATI cards in the first place. Nvidia does GL much better than ATI.

Mac gaming is alive and well, but in a very different way than what exists on the PC. Mac gamers overall prefer simpler dynamics, not-as-flashy graphics, and fun over glitzy technical whizbangs.

As a switched Mac user and a DS player. I don't care :) well, care is a little strong. I'm interested to see what happens but it won't affect my judgement of buying my next Mac. Personally I'd like no gaming in the Macs future, only Boot Camp/Virtualisation offering the gaming. Seems better that way.

Kevin, while every one else is yelling at some of your comments, they have failed to realize that you made a comment that made this whole post irrelivant: AMD just bougth ATI, and the INTEL Apples, believe it or not, run on INTEL processors. seeing as Intel and AMD are competitors, I doubt an AMD product would be happily sold to Intel specific machines.

Heh, Mac games. Me, a "mac fanboy", find this funny, the best game I have played on the mac is a Call of Duty demo that I got AFTER call of duty 2 was out. I guess kevin is kind of right, there are some great games for mac, they just come out about a year after the pc/console counterparts do.

Who cares? ATI sucks. I've had 2 ATI cards so far and they've all had problems. It's a shame that a great company like AMD invests in one of the poorest performing video cards makers. Oh what the heck, Intel is becoming better now anyway, so Intel + nVidia for Mac all the way... Media paradise.

I think this was an anti-synergistic fusion of companies. Intel should forge an alliance with nVidia (but not a fusion).

Some of the best games I've played I saw thru Macs... Bugdom and other Pangea Games ( pangeasoft.net ), Massive Assault ( massiveassault.com ), and Escort Wing ( owoho.com/escortwing ). Sure it's nice to have the mainstream games but indie games can be just as good if not better. I will be releasing the game I'm developing on Mac... see zeolitestudios.com for details. Oh and this article is now linked to from the IGDA - so expect more game devs to weigh in :)

Also there's already rumors the next iPod will be nVidia powered... ;)

sigh....

yt another challenge o being a mac user. appe is a great company, but when a great company fucks up, the do it BIG time. I am/was amc gamer...until about a year go when my STILL KING duall 2.5 g5 found out it had no graphics card to but except a 400 dollar 3 generation old x800. i wanted to go dual monitor...no haps, because i woul dhave to buy that card- i dont consider anythign older of any value.

NVIDIA for the mac sucks because they dont write any drivers, apple does. ati has thier own override software for 3d games, turnign your monitor sideways support, etc. what does nvidia cards have? NOTHING. just tried call of duty 2 demo on my dualie2.5 with 9800/256mb card. then i had to turn settigns down. then i turned it off. sigh.

IO would dare use windows for , well, anything. i hate it. i love workign on my mac, because things just work.so to not havew any more/rcent games, just sucks a lot of balls. open GL is a dog. thats who we should be cursing. to all open gl developers: YOU ALL SUCK!! they havent advanced the spec in years. drag them out into th estreet and shoot them. if i was apple i'd just liscence direct x, because OPENGL BLOWS

dam u ATI for selling out!!!!!

Can we be honest? The mac as a serious gaming platform is a fleeting misrepresentation of why we buy Apple. This issue has been thrown over the rail so many times it's akin to a politician rambling about the evils of video games on the youth of society. It's a dead topic and one that needs to stop being flogged for press and I say this having been with macs all along.

Hardcore gamers don't buy macs and if you buy a mac primarily to play games you are just benign to the whole situation that has existed since the dawn of time. Apple has always being criticized 'are they really doing enough'. Who said they had to do anything? Apple computers were never about the latest and greatest in gaming capability. Time to throw in the towel and go report on something actually newsworthy.

@ potato:

That's b/c thats what most of the games you have to play on the Mac are.

The Mac is overpriced, undersupported, style over substance, tech for dummies, and Yuppies everywhere.

Macs suck, and there are only two things thats use macs, ludites and posers.

Mac tries to make itself oh so hip, and thats all your really paying for when you buy a mac. The same people that run out to buy SUVs cause you gotta have one if you are somebody. Or the people who dont want to own a computer beacuse that would make them a nerd, they want to own a mac (thats ok supposedly).

Macs are really like the AOL of computers. There are cheaper, better, faster services out there but word of mouth from 1 loser to the next keeps them operating.

So now macs can run windows? I hope you take this as a sign that its time to ween yourself off of that piece of snobery masquerading as a real computer that sits next to your ipod inside the house that outside sits your VW bug full of organic groceries that you just paid twice as much for. And I hope that when you die the fact that you paid twice as much for everything and it was still inferior and your quality or length of life wasn't any better than PC users or regular grocerey buying people, just how stupid you mac users really are.

DIE MAC USERS DIE!

yeh, Shag!, the word of mouth is: "hey, there are computers out there that are intuitive, the way technology always promises to be but rarely achieves. Sounds like you're jealous of Mac styling because you own a Dell or some other crap.
And luddites?! Why should you be a tech-guru to find files, or edit video even? It's 2006 - you should be able to plug and play. And so far only Mac's deliver on that front. Sure, there's a premium in price, but at least you get results easily. Most people aren't tech-savvy, and nor should they need to be.

You can play WoW on a Mac. It's not like you'd play anything else on a PC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvakzjKaz5U

Posting that was mandatory. I was under threat of arrest.


Photoshop... *snicker*

PC's are more ludditical - they still have floppy drives ;)

games for mac to be released in 2006 are as follows:

Sudoku

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Oh_DcJQsM8&search=mac%20vs.%20pc

enjoy!

THeesi here need sa somess oem things .. by apele an dati aand nvdiida. ---a- superompture with opsibilit of which one would ou like to have Sir? Tat's it m y seggestion.

Or in more sompleeeeee. the ways said: wastthat apple can offer a computers and t will have either ati nvidia intel grpahics card, leave it to the Sir (TEhe UUUSER, fine lady, dear sir)

WTF? Looks like someone failed english class. lol

I didn't know that people even gamed on Macs. If Apple ever wants to make gaming an attracting feature then they should

1. Get more popular games other than WOW, so that people who already have Macs might try to game on it at least knowing that they could becuase the games are there that Windows people play.

2. Make a gaming console like Xbox. I would sell my 360 in a flash to buy a XMAC! Everyone knows its a bitch to put your iTunes Music Store music on your 360, a damed bitch. And anyways most thirdparty developers port their games to any console with a large enough audiance.

Ummm...there is a patch on XBL that allows you to play iTunes music on your 360. I've streamed music to my 360 manyt times from my PC without a problem.

Oy. Fanboys crawling out of the woodwork. FYI, for most of you, if you do a comparison in price between a custom store-built Mac, and an equivalent PC, the price differential is very small, particularly when you factor in requisite software, like maybe WINDOWS. Or, say, MICROSOFT OFFICE. Meh.

As to a time difference in Mac games, that excludes Mac native games, like the excellent Avernum series, or anything by Ambrosia Software.

Not that it matters. Apples and oranges, so to speak.

Funny, how I didn't get any replies the first time around...

Funny how Mac "gamers" always bring up the little games that no one really cares about.

I used to build PCs, and I was a hardcore PC gamer who pushed frame rates and obsessed over graphics, and then got sick of PCs being boxes full of cheap crap and switched to Mac in 2004. It was the best choice I've made in a long time, and I really don't get why so many PC people are *violently* against Macs or Mac users. Most of the people complaining here have probably never touched OS X, or cracked open a Mac. They go on outdated information and seem to think that gaming is the measure of a computer.

It's not. It's nice, but gaming is really not supposed to be the focus of a computer. That's why we have dedicated consoles for gaming.

I use my Mac to get work done, surf the net, and might play a game every once in a while. I still play the better PC games on my Mac in Boot Camp, but I spend more time gaming on my DS, Xbox 360, and- eventually- I'll turn to the Nintendo Wii for other gaming needs.

If I want to play City of Villains/City of Heroes, or Star Wars Empire at War, I play in Boot Camp. If I want to play WoW or Neverwinter Nights or Warcraft III or Starcraft, I play in OS X.

Why would I blow money and time on a "gaming PC" when my 360 cost far less (OK, well, mine was a prize, but still...) and it has far less upkeep? No drivers, no screwing around with Windows... I'm really done with hardcore gaming on PCs.

You know why I like my Macs? They do everything I need them to do with a minimum of work to get things operating properly. They're all TRUE plug-n-play. I never need to load drivers for any devices. I never need to worry if anything's compatible over USB, firewire, or bluetooth- They just work. The Macs are fast, the OS is logical and laid out to make me capable of getting more done-- The OS *stays out of the way* and doesn't get needy, like Windows. I also like that Macs are pretty much compatible with EVERYTHING, right out of the box.

I'm sorry people feel that my choice of computer is somehow an indicator of my being a luddite or poser. (Do you even know what "luddite" means? It means "opposed to the creation of new technology" which is pretty much the opposite of Apple and Mac users.) I use the computer that works for me. It's not a matter of looks or style because I really don't feel a need to impress people with my computer. It's not because I'm a hippie, because I'm not. It's not because I'm part of any particular demographic.

I think the people who lump all Mac users into a particular social group are giving away something about their own paranoid xenophobia.

Good luck with that.

Hey guess what?

I've used Macs before...
I've used OS X before...

Guess what? I'd rather use a PC anyday over a Mac.

All those commercials that Apple as going (while for the most part funny) are so biased that Apple should be sued for false advertisement. Plus isn't it funny how those commercials NEVER mention the fact that you can't play the latest games on them?

I'd like to state the fact that everyone who has posted a comment so far is undeniably retarded. The lot of you.

Guess that mean you included :-P

The whole PC (& Mac) gamming is not in a good shape, microsoft is trying to boost the PC gamming with Vista but the problem is marqueting + complexity. Beleive it or not some people dont play PC games just to save the installing process. In other words PC & Mac Gamming means just SIMS WOW AA COUNTER STRIKE. Console gamming will allways be better. The average life of a gamming console is longer than the one of PC or Mac and the games will look the same so you dont feel the rush to buy the latest PC to make your game look better. A gamming console is also cheaper than a competitive PC (even the PS3).

I am a mac user and i have had my imac for 4 years. In the early days it played most of the games but right now i cannot play the latest games. and my 4 year old PS2 still get new games and they look better than the games that i can play in mi Imac

Only a Mac user would claim a console is better than PCs...Its the usual justification for owning a gay computer.

Apple should start its own game division, making fun, simple games for casual gamers that don't require super hardware. It's never been the hardware that makes a great game, it's the game design. With a focus on fun, innovative Mac-only games Apple could get in on the booming game market. What are they waiting for?

PCs better then console gaming? Sure buddy...

Don't you have some game to fix b/c it was randomly crashing for no reason?

If PC gaming was so much better then consoles then tell me why console gaming has a bigger footprint in the world.

"The most Apple gaming will get is the Apple crowd using Boot Camp and all those people really play are older or more simplified puzzle games."

That's a bit of a generalisation. I'm a Mac owner and I mostly play games on my consoles. Given that computers are quite expensive, and I can't be bothered worrying about widely varying system requirements, it's the best choice.

And as a PS:

"The Mac is overpriced, undersupported, style over substance, tech for dummies, and Yuppies everywhere.

Macs suck, and there are only two things thats use macs, ludites and posers.

Mac tries to make itself oh so hip, and thats all your really paying for when you buy a mac. The same people that run out to buy SUVs cause you gotta have one if you are somebody. Or the people who dont want to own a computer beacuse that would make them a nerd, they want to own a mac (thats ok supposedly).

Macs are really like the AOL of computers. There are cheaper, better, faster services out there but word of mouth from 1 loser to the next keeps them operating.

So now macs can run windows? I hope you take this as a sign that its time to ween yourself off of that piece of snobery masquerading as a real computer that sits next to your ipod inside the house that outside sits your VW bug full of organic groceries that you just paid twice as much for. And I hope that when you die the fact that you paid twice as much for everything and it was still inferior and your quality or length of life wasn't any better than PC users or regular grocerey buying people, just how stupid you mac users really are.

DIE MAC USERS DIE!"

You are perhaps the biggest imbecile ever, but I'm sure this post was written purely to start arguments.

However, just so you know, I don't buy organic groceries, drive a VW (or any car for that matter). I'm not a yuppie or a poser of any kind. I'm not a luddite - I'm actually quite adept with technology. I didn't buy the Mac because it was cool to, or because I wanted to increase my social standing.

I bought a Mac because after years of wasting my computing time worrying about having to install drivers and software, adjust settings, figure out a wide variety of confusing, unfriendly error messages and generally putting up with so many programs crashing, leaking memory or otherwise not doing what I wanted them to, Mac OS X Tiger was a breath of fresh air.

Certainly, the system was more expensive than I would have liked, but it's also thoroughly well made, and came with free, quality software that I use regularly... as opposed to the utter crap most PC manufacturers insist on installing on new systems.

And with regards AOL, I'm certain they may be a terrible internet provider in the US (it took them THIS long after buying Time Warner to hook up with TW's cable networks?!) but in the UK, they're surprisingly good. Of all the major ISPs (and believe me, I've been through several), I've had far fewer problems with AOL... and as I use my router to connect, I don't even need their clunky software!

@GSI: Consoles are more profitable, that's why. PCs just have different control schemes than consoles, and aren't really better.

BTW, most crash-to-desktop problems are caused by copy protection schemes that don't work with a particular drive. I've found that with most games, almost all crashing problems disappear with a no-CD crack (like that does the legal paying customers any good, right?)

As for the ATI/Apple thing, they just need to make a new contract and switch a driver. No big deal, except for some extra $$$ spent. Apple's drivers aren't anywhere near as sophisticated or full-featured as the PC versions, anyway.

I remember when Apple said they wanted OSX to be the gaming platform of choice. Since when has a Mac had decent video hardware? I remember when my Amiga 1000 wiped the floor with the most expensive Macs available, but only Apple survived in the long run with the reputation as a "creativity" platform. Sucks, don't it?

There's plenty that Apple can do to improve gaming on the Macintosh. Or rather, one very important thing: a comprehensive gaming software development kit. At the moment, developers are being left to fend for themselves compared to Microsoft, who are practically whoring Windows out to game developers. OS X will never be a viable gaming platform unless Apple actively encourages developers to work with Macs.

Having said that, it is a shame that Apple isn't doing more. There are some potentially god-like specifications on the horizon with the MacPro arriving soon. OS X makes a very pleasant environment to game in, with faster loading times, quicker application switching, comparitively minimal maintenance and centralised software and driver updates from Apple.
After the OpenGL performance patch that has just been released for the Intel systems, WoW is slicker than ever. And as long as the framerate is unnoticable, I'm going to enjoy the more practical, convenient side of running WoW under OS X.

@ The ZeroCorpse: Amen, brother. I used to get so frustrated with computers, and I used them all the time. So then I had to work with a Mac for the first time about a year and a half ago, it took about a day to get used to it, and I haven't touched Windows since. I understand all you Windows people, but give Mac a day to try it out before commenting on Macs cuz you don't know a damn thing if you haven't.
As for games, I don't care about RTS's an FPS's, so PC gaming has nothing for me. I'd rather play on my DS.