Rein reckons PS3 "in a better place" for launch than 360

I have a ton of PS1 games, I didn't play any in my PS2. I have a ton of xbox games, I don't play them in my 360.

"48. I'm going to raise the same objection that I've raised dozens of times before.

There's no such thing as a killer launch title. Launch titles are average at best. In video gaming history, I can think of just one launch title that was truly hailed as great - Super Mario World."

Huh?

Dreamcast had Soul Calibur
Nintendo 64 had Mario 64
XBox had Halo

Whether you agree with the perception that these were great games or not, generally consumers viewed these titles as Killer Apps at launch.

@ ihavenoideawhatisgoingon

This is a great article based on the CPUs in 360 and Ps3. Let me know what you think. This would have come sooner but for some odd reason, joystiq is taking forever and a day to send me the verification so my original post would show. "sigh"

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.video.sony-playstation2/msg/62ff83d96ea78ea9?hl=en

"Right now, from what we've heard, the real-world performance of the Xenon CPU is about twice that of the 733MHz processor in the first Xbox. Considering that this CPU is supposed to power the Xbox 360 for the next 4 - 5 years, it's nothing short of disappointing. To put it in perspective, floating point multiplies are apparently 1/3 as fast on Xenon as on a Pentium 4."

"The reason for the poor performance? The very narrow 2-issue in-order core also happens to be very deeply pipelined, apparently with a branch predictor that's not the best in the business. In the end, you get what you pay for, and with such a small core, it's no surprise that performance isn't anywhere near the Athlon 64 or Pentium 4 class."

"The Cell processor doesn't get off the hook just because it only uses a single one of these horribly slow cores; the SPE array ends up being fairly useless in the majority of situations, making it little more than a waste of die space.

We mentioned before that collision detection is able to be accelerated on the SPEs of Cell, despite being fairly branch heavy. The lack of a branch predictor in the SPEs apparently isn't that big of a deal, since most collision detection branches are basically random and can't be predicted even with the best branch predictor. So not having a branch predictor doesn't hurt, what does hurt however is the very small amount of local memory available to each SPE. In order to access main memory, the SPE places a DMA request on the bus (or the PPE can initiate the DMA request) and waits for it to be fulfilled. From those that have had experience with the PS3 development kits, this access takes far too long to be used in many real world scenarios. It is the small amount of local memory that each SPE has access to that limits the SPEs from being able to work on more than a handful of tasks. While physics acceleration is an important one, there are many more tasks that can't be accelerated by the SPEs because of the memory limitation.

@32 footsteps

Super Mario 64 was a killer app for the 64. Even though it was the ONLY game worth having at launch.
It's ironic that the two killer apps for a console launch are Nintendo games. I think Zelda TP will be a killer app for the Wii. I believe Metroid could be too depending on the final controls scheme.

M'Soft just needs to buy Epic and shut this guy up, if Gears of War is huge, which I expect it will be, I wouldn't be suprised to see them add them it to their ever growing list of gameing companies.

Todd
http://www.proxbox360.com

Personally, I wouldn't fall back on the N64 and Dreamcast when talking about "killer apps," but that's just me.

I'll grant that Halo counted as a "killer app," but that's only one example. By far, most consoles do not launch with a killer game. In some cases, the games that really caught people's attention didn't even come out in the first year of the system's life (the Genesis is a classic example - Sonic came to define the system, but it wasn't a first-year title for the Genesis).

In the entire history of consoles, we can find four different launch titles, out of about four dozen console launches, that would qualify as "killer apps". Two of those consoles are considered absolute failures (one actually ending the hardware market for one developer, and some argued the other should have ended then, too). One was a moderate success in one country but an abject failure outside of it. And one in which it was an unqualified success.

Maybe I was carried away a bit by hyperbole, but I think it's obvious that while a system needs alot of good games, they don't have to come on the launch day. As long as there's at least one or two worthwhile exclusive titles within a year of the launch, then the system has a reasonable shot at success. Better to hold up a bit after launch and tweak the game to make it better rather than push to get a game out at launch and have it fall flat.

@striderhayasa
Thanks for the link. I saw that article, but passed over it because of the date. I'm hoping that when the PS3 is released, there is some sort of good technical breakdown of both systems. Until then though, i'll go back and read that one. Though I'm not writing code for either of these machines, i like the technical info (because I hope to be writing code for them one day, otherwise, what good is my CS degree :) )

@ 32 footsteps

Good point.
If you look at the 64 which should have ended Nintendo before Sega exited the hardware side of the business, Turok helped define that console and made Acclaim respectable at a time when they were on the brink of total failure. Iquana become a developement house that would be respected at least from the artistic direction side of things. If Turok could have released at the launch of the 64, I think it would have definately helped sales.

Better yet, if Goldeneye or Perfect Dark launched with the release of the 64 that would have been huge.
I guess what I'm saying is, I'd rather have a killer app at or close to launch to justify the purchase of the console. Look at the portables. The DS launch line-up was pathetic. Months went by before anything good was released for it. There is no way in hell anyone could recommend Asphalt Urban GT, Ridge Racer or Yoshi Touch and go with a straight face. These games are total trash. I understand developers need to learn new hardware but is it so much to ask to have at least some respectable titles at launch?

Hey Ln. I felt he made a good point. Why did you attack him for stating his opinion? That is somewhat childish.

"Does anybody have proof Xbox 360 is soooo much easier to develop for? Is it just the fact that the Ps3 looks hard to develop for? If that's the case, than saying the 360 is easier to develop for merely because of lesser graphical prowess is AN INSULT to the Xbox 360."

It's hardly an insult, and it has NOTHING to do with graphical prowess. The Cell processor's architecture is completely different from the mainstream processors. With the core + SPE setup, programming has to completely change in order to be effective. Instead of shoving tasks onto one of the cores that can handle it from there, they now have to shove tasks to a core and delegate subtasks to the SPE's while still checking in with the core to keep the SPE's on track. It's a mess. As a reminder, SPE's are NOT equivalent to cores.

Beyond that, Microsoft is brilliant at making development environments. As they should be; they've been in the business for a long time. I gurantee you that Sony's tools don't hold a candle to Microsoft's tools.

Better tools plus a more familiar processor architecture would without a doubt make programming for the 360 easier.

That in no way means the PS3 is screwed. Developers WILL figure it out (assuming Sony doesn't stab themselves in the foot). It's just going to be a headache for them at first. But at least the tools are better than what they had with the PS2.

@ ihavenoideawhatisgoingon

No problem. I have a degree in animation and would love to design for games for consoles (i'm doing graphic design now though) but the portables have me really excited right now. The portbles, XBLA and the VC.

The consoles are good and all but the expense and manpower needed to design for those is a huge investment. If I had the opportunity, I'd design for the DS.

The article is good a bit damning, but it doesn't take away my faith in the great games that are sure to come over the next few years. Price is a big factor for me though so I'm looking at the Wii and later down the road the 360. I think my biggest wish for the PS3 is for Sony to just focus on the games. That's what disappoints me about the PSP. (I'm not trying to start a flame war, I'm just being honest) I just want a stronger focus on great games and not the extra functionality. That's what I loved about the PS even though I'm a Nintendo fan at heart. PS one had great games and new IPs at every turn after the first year of its life cycle. It was like the SNES/genesis era all over again. You could walk into a store and see "tenchu" and say..."what the hell is that? Can I demo it?" and walk away totally impressed and ready to pony up the cash for it.

That's what I want to see from the PS3

I was seperating the success/failure of the console from the fact of having a killer app. Granted, the Dreamcast failed - but Soul Calibur was still an amazing launch title :) In fact, I think I'd be willing to vote for it as one of the best launch titles ever made, because it felt like a true leap forward from the previous generation (of graphics, at any rate).

Good job moving the goalposts, 32_Footsteps. First it was "There was only one good launch title for any console" then it was "There was only one good launch title for a successful console". What's next? "There was only one good launch title for a gaming system that I owned and still play today"?

He's not being pro - Sony like everyone seems to be thinking, hes just stating the facts and those are that Sony have taken their time and will have a better launch while Microsoft rushed a bit to get out the gates first.

after talking to a sony rep yesterday Sony is having some trouble with the blue lasers.

They're not trying to take advantage PRiCE STYLE's already low, low prices on paper towels, are they? Cheat Commandos, rock, rock on!

Developers WILL figure it out (assuming Sony doesn't stab themselves in the foot). It's just going to be a headache for them at first.

How many small to medium development houses are going to dip their toe into the PS3 pool, only to decide it's not worth the headache, and focus their attention on other platforms instead? The sales potential from the enormous PS2 install base made it worth quite a few headaches to develop for, but with Sony positioning the PS3 as this generation's "luxury" console, I think we'll see fewer game developers willing to take the risk.

@striderhayabusa

How can you say Sony only sells because of brand recognition? I do agree that the brand helps you sell hardware, but does not sell you software. I am buying a PS3 because I like what I saw at E3, and my wife wants the Singstar game. Most people who are not PC centric gamers could care less about the Cell and all the techno crap, they just want games. What is wrong with liking Sony? Most people who had a PS2 enjoyed the experiences they had on it, and think the PS3 is going to given them more of that. Same thing for those that like Nintendo and what they do. Say what you want, but it's Microsoft's job to change peoples thinking, not Sony's. You have to take the title from the champ, and that's the Microsoft challenge. As for the ease of programming, once again, it doesn't mean much cause look how easy the PC is to program for and all its games are awesome right? The PS2 was so harfd that no one made games for it. I could care less how hard the programmers at Capcom had to work while I play DMC3. All I know is thatg I'm having a good time. When you play HAlo 2 do you sit around and say "Boy, I sure am glad the programming was easy". No and why should you. Games are all that count, and if you like the PS3 then like it, if you like the 360 then that's great too. To wish failure on something because you happen to like something else is stupid. My friends hated NFL2k5 but appreciated the competition since it made EA work a little harder.

if I ever need to feel better about my life I come to joystiq to see what the uber nerds are fighting about today. works every time.

Baberg, did you not note that I admitted that I went overboard with hyperbole and I corrected myself to make a point that was less grandiose and as such more correct? I note that you don't want to argue whether my revised point is correct - you just want to make fun of me for making it. If you can't do anything better than ad hominem attacks, don't bother.

@ 32 footsteps

"There's no such thing as a killer launch title. Launch titles are average at best. In video gaming history, I can think of just one launch title that was truly hailed as great - Super Mario World."

While this is true, one must actively assess several systems for a proper analysis.

Super Mario 64 to this day, is considered one of the greatest games of all time. As is Halo, (whether it's overrated or not, it's irrelevant, it set the stage for the entire consoles life)

The point is, your statement is definitely correct, but some franchises are most definitely immune to this, for the most part. Any Mario launch is pretty much universally loved.

-LN

All I can say is...I'm just glad someone else said it.

-Clint

Is Sony paying you weekly or biweekly to spew out incessant crap about how great the PS3 is going to be? It could be great. Sure. But we won't know that until its out. But it is so fun to laugh at blind sheep and watch them try to spin Sony's PR into being positive.

In so far as Rein's comments go, it's all speculation. Anyone who says that PS3 will be in better shape at launch than the 360 and claims it to be fact is a fool. Until the product is out, for sale, and the numbers are coming back, nobody knows how it's going to do. We can all assume things. But there's absolutely no cold hard facts to his statements.

For the record, Intel isn't killing PC gaming. Expensive upgrades, games that are ported to less expensive consoles, and piracy are killing PC gaming.

My final opinion? Rein is only making statements positive for Sony because his company will have games on the system. Biased information like his should be taken with a grain of salt.

Who cares if developers have had more time to develop games for launch. Measured against the 360's lead time...developers are still far more familiar with 360 hardware and software at this point.

PS3 first gen games still will be compared against a huge library of 360 first gen games and 2nd gen games.

@ herman.

I never said it was anything wrong with liking sony. But you can't deny that the PSP is selling because of brand recognition. The Nomad and the TurboExpress played the exact same games from their respective consoles. The TurboGraphx 16 failed but the Genesis was a success but not like the PS2. But both portables failed. PSP does similar, playing ports of PS2 and PS games but both of those console are huges successes. You can't deny that this is a big motivator that generates sales. The issue is the library itself which no one can deny has been suspect up until recently and the UMD movie format which is useless when its all said and done. If any other company would have tried the same tactic they would have failed miserably.

Nintendo sells on brand recognition too. Many people buy Nintendo games because of the history of the company. The difference is Nintendo is a better developer than sony and it shows in every generation. But Sony has better third party support. That's what makes PS and PS2 the great consoles people know them for. The third party support. But Superior 1st party support is the only reason Nintendo survived through the debacle that was the 64 and why they are the success they are today.

Now, there are many gamers that do love to hear about the tech under the hood of their gear. I'm one of those people. I'm an animator so it does interest me about the frame rate and fill rate of a game and other aspects. Real Virtual Fighter players can't play the game if it's 1 frame per second off because it screws up the timing for combos and counters (This is from Sega in explaining why VF5 won't be online) The average gamer isn't going to care, true but in either case it's still about the games in general which I believe I covered above.

Personally, I'm not loving the PS3 like many people here are because sony isn't focusing on the game aspects. It's more about the multi-functionality. The PSP is a great example of what they are trying to achieve with the PS3. But PSP as a gaming portable is not all it could be and it's been out for almost two years. Is this what we can expect from PS3? With third party support being spread across the PS3 the 360 and the Wii, I don't need to support the PS3. I did in the current gen only for VF4, Armored Core and a select few titles. But Armored Core, Devil MAy Cry and many others will be on the 360 and in some cases the Wii. I'll pass on PS3. I may miss VF5 but there's always the arcade if worst comes to worst. I want a console that is about gaming, first and foremost and for a reasonable price. Wii and 360 has me covered. Sony is not concerned with this as they are adamant to force feed tech that everyone doesn't need or want and then charge a premium for it.

So you may disagree and you have the right to your opinion but my opinion is supporting Sony's agenda is ridiculous to the point of being offensive when they have gone on record and said people will buy the PS3 even if they release no games for it. Sheep running with the herd comes to mind.

@43
They didn’t get dev kits early…. They got them late and then the PS3 was delayed 6 months. I’m sure that the launch 360 titles could have been more ‘polished’ if Microsoft has stuffed up and had delayed the 360 as well.

How the heck can you compare the PS3 launch lineup to the 360 launch lineup when the PS3 launch lineup is still speculation? There has been no official word on anything yet, heck, there isn't even a release date to the PS3.

Based on the rumors about the bad yields the Cell processor's are getting, I still don't see it being launched in 2006. Don't be surprised if it is pushed back to Spring 2007.

Hot damn, how well would the Wii60 sell this holiday with no PS3 on the shelves?

Strider, your article is a year old and the points brought up about how people should work with the cell has brought about kits and clearer explanations of how the cell works.


http://gamasutra.com/features/20060721/chow_01.shtml

@Rhys


Stinging... and oh so true.

"Sony is in a better place."

That's what they said about Old Yeller after he was put down.

Even though PS3 has had more time to work with the development kits. Not to many people are happy about the price of the system. Seriously, 500-600, give me a break.