Goodbye PowerMac, hello Mac Pro

Mac Pro costs a lot. But it isn't expensive. You get what you pay for. Now I'm waiting for a not so pro Mac, that has good expandability so I wouldn't have to buy a new one. An iMac is pretty cheap considering it has a 20" display in it, but that's also the problem: What if I just want to use my older display, or use two displays at once? Also I'd like to put more than one hard drive in, and change the graphics card some day. Now I have to buy $2199 (yes there is a model like that, if you choose a slower processor) Mac just for expandability.

I'd rather buy a Mac Pro that is as powerful as iMac but could use two hard drives and would have less PCI slots and could take less RAM and you could buy a better graphics card, for about 1200-1500 dollars. This of course is never coming, just on my wishing list.

NO ONE is making you upgrade your machine every couple months b/c even if it was a Mac, the Mac wouldn't be able to run a brand new game the same as something that came out say a year before.

If you have you constantly try to fix Windows b/c its crashing, etc. then you don't know how to use a damn computer properly. IT IS possible to crash a Mac and make it run like ass.

Why is a Mac safer? B/c there are LESS Macs on the market so that makes logical sense. If the tables were turned and PCs were the minority, then there would be less problems for PCs.

Macs are more secure for the same reason Linux and any *nix variant is more secure. Because you are not logged in as the administrator or root by default. This is one basic out of many security holes that Windows has. Compare that with the holes in an *nix system (OS X included).

People bring up quantity as an argument, which is ridiculous considering how many Linux servers are out there in the wild constantly networked with other machines. If Windows was a more secure platform then it wouldn't be nearly as easy to vulnerable to malware and takeovers as it is now.

@ GSI:

How many video editors, motion graphics, audio engineers, 3d designers built their own machines? And explain to me how you can build a dual dual core xeon cheaply? Newegg lists a woodcrest 2.66 for $760.99. So your already over $1500 for just the cpus. 2GB RAM $150-250. HD $80. Quadro fx 4000 $1489. The mobos look like they start at $350.

So hmm, your over $3k. And you haven't even added a case, cooling, power supply, or optical drives.

@ pixelator:

hint: an optical drive does not change the price by $600. I priced and speced for a Dell Precision Workstation 690 (750W, 64bit). It has basically identical specs to the Mac Pro I speced (I upped the RAM and GPU to compare to the Alienware). I have no idea what you speced out. Hint: use a WOODCREST CPU and 667 ram.

However, I agree that you shouldn't pay list for a Dell. Even so, a Dell costs almost $1000 more. And yes, there is corporate/big buyer discounts. But Apple offers that too.

I love all these comments about how a comparable windows pc is WAAAYYY cheaper, but there's never any proof to back it up.

Seriously, I'd like to hear about a system that compares to the Mac Pro for a lot less. This is a hardcore system. If someone can show me this system w/windows for ~$1500 instead of $4400, I'll buy it.

I'm still waiting for some comment about how you can't right-click on a mac.

@ pixelator:

I'm guessing you used an older xeon and/or forgot to add the second cpu. Price it with 2 5150 CPUs.

The Mac Pro has a 1.3Ghz FSB.

If you are comparing the price of a pre-built computer to the price of the components for a computer you have to build yourself, and you expect this differential to apply to the average consumer or even the average gamer, you are stupid. Seriously. Just think about that logic for a second. Apply it to another product, like automobiles, to highlight the idiocy:

"You bought a Camry? Why, when you can build one yourself for cheaper! Toyota is so stupid!"

Fact is, the Mac Pro is *not* more expensive than the average equivalent Windows machine. Take this literally: take the *average* price over several PC companines (dell, Alien, whoever) for an equivalent machine and compare that average to the price of a Mac Pro. A new, decent-priced top-of the line rig is obviously something that would be newsworthy to gamers.

Mac is for media work, not gaming. Only a moron would buy a Mac for gaming.

I guess you Mac guys haven't figured out that this isn't a system that the "average joe" computer user would buy. This would be bought by professionals/companies that do video editing work, graphic design, etc.

...and true that PCs dont have Final Cut Pro, there are video editing programs for the PC that do the EXACT same thing as Final Cut. There are equivalent programs on both sides and it all comes down yo whether you want to troubleshoot a problem yourself or have to take it so someone else to fix.

Oh and Alienware is NOT your average computer company. They (just like VoodooPC, Falcon NW and others) sell systems that are geared to a specific market...gaming...something the Mac doesn't do.

#48 / jarod

good luck =D i am a new mac'er as well and i love it. windows really sucks compared to apple / osx.

@ gsi

i was about to get offended by your comment that "don't know how to use a damn computer properly", then i read your many ill-concieved posts on this topic and realized, that it was the other way around, and i smiled knowingly.

boot camp is going to change everything for me. the stability of a mac and osx, with the option to run the disaster known as windows, all on the same machine. i love it when stuff WORKS without digging for drivers, firmware, or whatnot. i cant wait.

So I don't know anything? Really now?

I've had a virus...ONCE and it was the dreaded Miranda virus but that was 5-6 years ago. The last time I got infected by spyware was probably around that same time as well. PLUS my computers since then have run perfectly fine and the only time that it's ever gotten screwed up was b/c I had done something for it to get that way.

I got news for you, Boot Camp is NOT going to replace PCs. Why? It's not 100% compatible with EVERYTHING made for Windows.

--> "Without digging for drivers, firmware or what not."

Wow you are ignorant. You make it sound like a Windows PC is the only piece of technology ever conceived that has drivers or firmware updates and you REALLY think that then you are pretty dense.

Trolling aside, I'd love to have one of these. Though I kind of wish Apple made it an option to have one of the drives contain a Blu-ray player. Apple is on the board of directors for Blu-ray, and since people that actually consider buying a Mac Pro usually are somewhat loaded, they'd probably enjoy having the Blu-ray player available to them.

Jarod -

Whah. Someone should make your trying story into a lifetime friday night tearjerker movie. The fact that you're claiming to play DOOM 3! shows that if you are a big time gamer, you're not a very smart or discerning one.

There are fifty million great applications for the PC that you can get either as free/shareware, or full versions you can get via bittorrent. And why would these haughty mac users spend so much for their not easily upgradable machine and OS X, just to have to install Vista to do anything beyond mundane tasks? Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose?!?

A challenge to the Mac supporters: name all of the benefits to getting a Mac that isn't also true for Linux, and then try to keep your face straight when you say that that is worth $2500.

Of course, nobody's talking about the education price for this Mac Pro. You can save $200 or more, and pick one of these babies up for as low as $2299 in the basic configuration, as long as you go to school or work for a school.

This is a workstation for professionals, thus the name Mac Pro. If you're a PC gamer, then stick with the toys you slap together from parts. This isn't the computer you're looking for.

I'm a Mac user, and I wouldn't buy one of these. It's too much computer. I'll never need this much power.

But you know, the Intel core duo Mac mini with 2GB RAM and a 720 RPM hard drive does what I need it to do. I'm far happier with this (and my bronze PowerBook) than I ever was with any of my dozen or so PCs.

We get it, PC Weenies. You don't like Macs. You have some weird homophobic reaction to Macs and Mac users. I don't understand why, but it's there. You really should work on that, because it makes you look sort of silly and out-of-touch.

Right...and Mac elitist snobs never make fun of PC users right? Oh wait...

"then stick with the toys you slap together from parts."

What? Do you think that all Macs magically appear and are not assembled?

Xenikos--- There's a ton of freeware and shareware for Macs, too. On top of that, Macs come with pretty much everything the average user would ever need. I've purchased about three software packages for my Mac. Toast Titanium (which beats the hell out of Roxio's offerings in Windows, and blows Nero away), MS Office (required for school, otherwise I'd stick with iWork), and Photoshop CS. Everything else I use is shareware or freeware, not counting the few games I bought.

Why would I mess with Linux? Who do I call if Linux screw up on me? Where's the top-rated Linux tech support? Where's the warranty coverage for Linux systems? Why would I want an OS that merely copies OS X when I can have OS X itself?

Why would I want an OS that requires a bunch of extra software to configure it like I have my OS X configured, including security features and ease of use?

I'm happy on the Mac. Why should that bother you so much that you need to rail against it?

TheZeroCorpse:

"Homophobic reaction"? Please. It is Apple and Macfans' inferiority complex and sheer unwarranted arrogance that is truly pathetic. It was embarassingly unprofessional and lame, the extent to which Jobs et al were over-reaching to make lame jabs at Microsoft (Yeah, everyone's clamoring to copy SAFARI! laughable). And the Mac camapaign ads...the Mac user acts like an insufferable jerk even in the advertisements they make! So, remove the mote from thy own eye, etc. etc.

Toast blowing away Nero...umm sure. I've used both programs plenty and they both what they were programed to do very well...burn/copy CDs and DVDs.

People who use systems with Linux know how to work on computer and know how to troubleshoot problems should they arise (whether it be software or hardware based.)

When my PC has an issue, I can resolve it myself on the spot and get back to doing whatever it is I was doing.

Why would it bother me? This was a comparison started in the marketing for the Mac Pro, and parroted here on this thread, that it provided a better value than competing PC models. It was pointed out that that was not true, to which some said "well, you get OS X though", the value of which I and others are questioning. We are responding to arguments made by others first - the "why do you care so much" line is just empty pathos.

Toast Titanium - what does it do that Nero can't? I have no idea, and would be curious what its added features are.

So you've bought that and two programs available on PCs. So what bundled software in OS X is so crucial for you, then? Mail? I want to know which programs make your life so much easier that aren't available on a PC.

Linux's warranty? This is very amusing. What would you need the warranty for? Who has ever called up for the warranty on their OS? It isn't hardware, it doesn't break. And how can you say it "copied" OS X? Linux has been unix based for a damn long time before X came out. Oh, and, it is free. I mean, is there any other defense aside from "I don't know how to set it up"? If you want good games, run Windows. If you want a smooth running OS with the customization abilities of unix, get Linux. if you want to pay a lot of money for a big white box that does nothing but does it very smoothly, get a Mac.

I have a Mac at work, and I hate it.

Games on a Mac - thats funny! My local CompUSA has all of 3 Mac games! One of them is the 3 year old 'Return to Castle Wolfenstein'!

When developers start making more Mac games, I'll stop laughing.

1) So, do be a super cool PC owning gamer, do I have to build my own PC? The Mac Pro is about the same price as high end/gamer PCs (or less), but from what I'm hearing PC gamers don't buy gamer PCs. WTF?

2) If you think the Mac's market share is small, imagine what the market-share is for people who build there own computer (nothing wrong with building, it's just a very specific, non-common option). Point being: "you can build a PC for cheaper", while true, doesn't really change anything.

2.5) Gamer PC and High end workstation = same thing. "Gamer" just ensures nice 3D graphics that may or may not be needed on a workstation depending on purpose).

3) Still waiting for that PC equal in spec for "way less" than $2499 ($2299 edu). Those last attempts completely failed (non-equivalent).

4) I think the burden of proof is all wrong: the question is, why would someone purposely buy a computer that can only run certain operating systems when you can buy one that's equally as poweful and roughly the same price that can run *any* operating system?

5) We all know the most expensive computers on the planet are Sony PCs.

Come on Apple, make a middle-ground system!

Xenon processors? Those are expensive, way past the "sweet spot" in the power-per-dollar curve. Video-card asside, the Mac Pro is overkill for any gamers or consumers. But the only alternative (without being built into a monitor) is the Mac Mini, which doesn't cut it. What we really need is a Core 2 Duo with an upgradable PCI express graphics card in mini-tower version of the Mac Pro's case. That I'd buy.

"Gamer PC and High end workstation = same thing"

Not necessarily. A high-end workstation at an animation studio would be more likely to have a Quadro video card (or the equivalent.)

--> "why would someone purposely buy a computer that can only run certain operating systems when you can buy one that's equally as poweful and roughly the same price that can run *any* operating system?"

If everything you need can be run on a Windows PC (and then some), you don't need to be able to run a Mac.

Plus just b/c it has all that power doesn't automatically mean you can throw on Boot Camp, install Windows and fire-up ANY program. I don't know of any off the top of my head (mainly b/c I don't care) but I'm sure there are some compatibility issues.

@ Evan

That's the point. This PC is not meant for gaming or general use. The Mac Pro is meant to be a workstation PC that is capable of running demanding graphic software and other high-end programs, hence the name Mac PRO. The Mac Pro is targeted at developers and business that require a fast, reliable system.

BTW, I'd like to point out that Apple has cut the price of their 30-inch display to $2,000.

#50

stop downloading porn.

I'd also like to point out that as beautiful as the 30 in monitor is (and it is quite nice)...it is still 2 THOUSAND DOLLARS for a monitor. You'd have to be pretty hardcore to either need or want it. The only people I know with large monitors like that at home are professional designers (be it web or graphic design.)

Why is it so many Windows users need to run their mouth on every Mac announcement and proclaim their choice the superior one like circumstance doesn't matter? A Windows PC is not superior for my wife. It's not superior for my old roommate's video editing needs. People accuse Mac users of being smug and turn a blind eye to the smugness of WiNazis like it's appropriate.

Also, that power users statement is crap. What's a "power user"? If I can build a computer from parts and edit the registry is that enough? What if I can build my own unique version of Linux? Just because you know how to use Windows does not mean you are suddenly some genius computing overlord who has any idea what's what in the broader computing landscape. Why don't you espouse the virtuals of Symbian versus Windows Mobile or Blackberry? Why don't you talk about the permissions problems that have really created Windows security issues? Knowledge of one OS does not have anything to do with knowledge of another and the values of one are not always relevant for every user.

Also of note is that the expensive Mac stuff is a myth. Run a search for a system comparable to the above in specs and compare the prices. A comparable Dell is running a few hundred MORE than the Mac.

Does anyone actually care that they don't know what they're talking about anymore or has internet anonymity become a suitable replacement for the confidence of actual knowledge?

Why? B/c all the blog posts that appear on here are about "Mac gaming." That's like saying "Microsoft Works."

Just b/c you can play a bunch of freeware puzzle games and versions of PC games that came out 3+ months later doesn't make the Mac a gaming platform. Plus just b/c it has a decent video card for gaming doesn't make it a gaming system either.

xenikos:

"Why would it bother me? This was a comparison started in the marketing for the Mac Pro, and parroted here on this thread, that it provided a better value than competing PC models. It was pointed out that that was not true, to which some said "well, you get OS X though", the value of which I and others are questioning. We are responding to arguments made by others first - the "why do you care so much" line is just empty pathos."

What world do you live in? A Dell workstation with the IDENTICAL configuration costs about $1000 MORE than the Mac Pro.

In my world, that sounds like a huge PREMIUM to run Windows XP.

But hey if that copy of Windows is worth 1k to you, more power to you. At least you get an activation code with it...maybe.

GSI:

I dunno, I'm pretty happy playing Civ 4 on my mac. And honestly, I could care less about having the newest game on a PC yesterday.

You might find that when you grow up, camping out in front of a store to get the newest game gets old. Things like work, family, etc. take up enough time. Besides, there are more games available on mac than I have time for. And if there aren't, hey I always have my PS2, GameCube and DS to fall back on. In fact, I have unopened games that I haven't even gotten to yet. I have 3 PS2 games, 1 gamecube game, and 2 DS games waiting unopened for me on a shelf, mostly because I've been spending my gaming time on civ4.

Seems like I'm a mac user that has more games than he knows what to do with.

Oh and just to drive the point home: I could buy a Mac Pro with the quadro card, a PS2, a DS, a Gamecube, and an xbox 360 and a bunch of games for the price of a comparable Dell computer. Oh and buy a copy of win mce and install in on the Mac Pro, just for fun. Then I would have every current game platform available to me.

Boy those Macs are SOOO expensive :P

Oh nice...another person who tries to make himself "seem" smart by making assumptions.

Guess what? I've never camped out in front of a store for anything. In fact I had my PS2 pre-ordered 7 months before it was released, walked in, paid it off and walked out (laughing internally at the people who waited overnight at another store.)

Oh and sorry but trying to bring in console games into this still doesn't hide the fact that the Mac is a pathetic gaming platform. I hope you have fun playing Civ4 while the rest of the PC audience is busy playing the expansion pack.

Oh and have fun playing those games that were 99% MADE on WINDOWS PCs. 3dsmax is a Windows only program that is the leading 3D package for game content creation . :-P

xenikos -

I own a year old gaming PC (A64 4400, 7800GT) that I upgrade roughly every 18 months as well as a Powerbook and an old G4 editing workstation that I'm going to buy a new machine for one Leopard comes out next year.

There is PLENTY of software available on OS X, contrary to what you say. Hell, a lot of it I prefer on the OS X platform than its WinXP counterpart (Transmit for instance is imo much much better than WS_FTP or the many other FTP programs I have used on Windows). And the OS X is just better than WinXP. It is like the dream Linux desktop distro that just won't happen in our lifetime, it doesn't seem (yeah, I've installed various LInux desktop distros over the years, and it was in the end a waste of time due to no real support or utility).

I have to sleep, but the bottom line is that you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. You have nothing like a real argument based on any real longterm experience, just blind fanboy rantings. Wow. You use a Windows machine just like 99% of the other people out there which makes you a computer expert.

Sad.

Either way, at this moment I consider my WinXP machine the toy I play games on (damn you Valve for not porting your games to OS X), while my OS X machines help me make the money to build my toys with. Works out ok I guess.

The last thing I will say is that games are the ONLY reason I still keep a WinXP desktop. I've only used Macs alongside my PC for four years, built my own PCs for almost ten years, but I can safely say that if it wasn't for gaming I would be 100% OS X at this point. 10.2 was my first real exposure to it and there really is no comparison at this point. Plus it just gets even better with every revision.

Actually, in the Keynote, it was announced that the standard configuration of the Mac Pro cost roughly $1000 LESS than the equivalent DELL version. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

GSI:

No surprise really, but your missing the point. You've made many posts talking about how expensive Macs are. And All I've done is show over and over again that you are completely and utterly wrong.

My point was, for the price of the same machine from Dell, I could get a Mac Pro and EVERY other platform, including windows.

Funny how you quietly avoid bringing that part up.

But hey whatever, I don't mind windows at all. I've said over and over, if you can find me an equivalent windows box a whole lot cheaper than the Mac Pro, I'd buy it. But again, you and the other fanboys seem strangely quiet when it comes to actually producing a real system. Maybe because they don't exist.

Ummm...no I haven't. The only thing I ever mentioned was that systems from Alienware, VoodooPC, Falcon NW, etc. are over priced.

...and bringing in the console gaming things means jack-crap. We are talking about Macs and PCs...not Macs, PCs AND consoles.

...and like I said before, I haven't even said once anything even remotely close to "I ban build a PC just as powerful for cheaper." My entire point from the beginning of this story was about how "Mac gaming" is a non-existent term.

Jarod, if you're sick of upgrading every 2-3 months, the last thing you want is a MAC. That's always been one of the more fallacious things Appleheads try to pass off - that Macs somehow withstand the test of time and necessary hardware upgrades better. It's total BS. The Mac you bought 4 years ago is just as obsolete now as the PC that someone else bought at the same time - maybe moreso.

OSX isn't friendlier, it's not faster. It's more stable insofar as you don't have to deal with malware and spyware as much, but in my dealings with Macs, they have NEVER proven to be more stable or faster.

And if you're a gamer at all, you're just plain moronic for choosing a Mac. Good luck with that software rack.

ric, it seems you're just plain lying. I specced the 690 exactly as you say you did, and it's under $4800. I didn't use an older CPU or single CPU. You need to recheck your facts. And again, coupons will bring the Dell down considerably.

Jesus, the macfreaks are shrill, tonight! 'Homophobic' reaction? So does that mean you consider Apple to be gay? You liken yourselves to a lifestyle group targeted by hatecrimes and bigotry -- Man, that self-aggrandizing and holy-am-I elevation by Jobs has sure rubbed off on you lot.

My Dell XPS destroys the Macbook Pro, my girlfriends Inspiron destroys the Macbook Pro for a fraction of its price. If this workstation is finally on par with other prefab companies, it's not some great innovation by Apple, it's more like about damned time.

I especially find the comments by the Applevangelists to the effect of 'stop commenting on OUR threads!' amusing, since it's usually the Mac elitists who start bashing Windows at their first opportunity. Because, by golly, you have to justify that pricetag somehow.

Macs aren't good for games. Other than the Quadro (not a gamer card), the video options on this 'holiest of holies' Pro suck. As usual, Apple fails at the hardware. Don't you wish they'd let Supermac and others clone the systems, now?

You guys never ever used PCs with Xeon CPUs, right? Or Quadro cards, right?
Jeezus Joystiq don't showcase a system meant for pro people to gamers having an average IQ of 80.

Who buys a Mac for gaming? I mean I guess its nice if you play the odd game like WOW or whatever but beyond that - buy a PC.

Personally I got sick of PC gaming and the interminable upgrade cycle years ago. For me consoles are much better for gaming and my iBook does everything I want a computer to do. Macs and consoles are just far lower maintenance than PC's. People have different priorities when they look for a system that fills their needs, and that's mine.

I mean if you like fiddling with computers and hardware then I'm sure many people get enjoyment out of it. Personally I got tired of that a while back, and after a horrendous stint of a few months with Linux (now that's an OS that requires work) I bought an iBook. It's probably the most hassle free piece of electrical equipment I've ever owned, computer or otherwise.

As for price I think the iMacs are probably the most over priced of all the Macs spec-wise. I'll let the Mini go because its form factor doesn't really have a comparison on the PC market. Except Mini-ITX but that's much less powerful. The laptops are comparably priced with quality PC models and this Mac Pro seems excellent value of you're a true power user.

I do like the iMacs though, they are rather sexy. :)

"And how can you say it "copied" OS X? Linux has been unix based for a damn long time before X came out. Oh, and, it is free.

Posted at 11:04PM on Aug 7th 2006 by xenikos"

- - -

hmmm. in my world OS X started as a reskinned version of NeXTSTEP... which was released in 1989 after being previewed for some time. meanwhile... a few years later Mr. Torvalds came up with a *kernal* called Linux. NeXTSTEP was far ahead of Linux in 1991.

look. a little cartoon to look at :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Unix.png

pretending it was 1991 again... i think i'd be getting a lot more use out of NeXTSTEP than what existed as Linux. oh wait... actually. in 1991 i was.

granted it wasn't until 1999 that OS X Server 1.0 came out... which was the first actual thing called "OS X" to be released. the similarities between it and NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP were really really obvious still. even today there are plenty of remnants of the original NeXTSTEP heritage in OS X.

- - -

"I mean, is there any other defense aside from "I don't know how to set it up"?

Posted at 11:04PM on Aug 7th 2006 by xenikos"

yeah... that's kinda a big one. sorry to rain on your parade but there is a reason Linux will never be a mainstream desktop operating system. and "i don't know how to set it up" is a pretty big one to a LOT of mainstream non-suprenerd desktop personal computer users... the ones that make or break those ever-quoted marketshare numbers. if you can't see that there really isn't any point elaborating on it.

everytime i install Linux i always wonder why i bothered like a few weeks later. there is nothing it can do that OS X can't do. whereas there is a lot OS X can do that Linux can't.

Linux has it's place for sure... a desktop OS really isn't it though. it also has a serious lack of focus or consistancy.

Macs as a gaming platform have always been lacking in comparison to PCs. That's a fact. There's no denying that at all. As a mac user (former PC but converted in 1999) that was my biggest gripe. But, there are mac versions for pretty much all it's windows counterparts for productivity software. And if there isn't a mac version, there's another software that could at least do the same thing.

Now with the introduction of the Intel macs and especially this new MacPro, apple users now have access to a plethora of windows based video games, whether starting up in windows XP through boot camp or running parallels within OSX. Studies have shown that performance is not totally compromised and keeps pace with it's PC counterparts. So the discussion of "is Mac a good gaming platform" needs to be a little more specific. Are the new macs a good gaming platform? Yes. Will gamers buy macs in order to play PC games. Highly doubtful. Until Apple introduces a lower priced computer that can still play games well, i doubt gamers would flock to it. You have to shell out the money to get a high end system to play the high end games.

So going back again. MacPros are not meant for gaming. It doesn't mean it can't do it well. The majority of Pro users work in an art related field, especially video editing, graphic design, audio recording/mixing and other creative endeavors. That doesn't go to say that PCs can't do all that but Macs are just the majority when it comes to the creative field. There's no denying that just like there's no denying that mac used to be a horrible gaming system.

So yeah, the new MacPros are an amazing announcement for the people in the creative field. The fact that it can also stomp when it comes to gaming is just the cherry on top.

p.s. #87 pixelator

Macs are quite durable and worth it's penny in the long run. Sure you get a low end imac or some shit and the computer will choke in 4 years but if you get a high end powermac... i guarantee 4 years later you can still do professional work on it. I had a powermac g4 450mhz 2nd generation and 4.5 years later i was still working professionally on it. I then bought a 2nd generation dual 1.8 g5 and 2.5 years later i'm still working professionally on it and don't plan on upgrading for at least another year. My fellow artists out there that are power users have similar stories with their computers. Of course if you want to keep up as a power user, you'll want to upgrade every 1.5 to 2 years but most people won't be doing that.

I won't be talking smack about PCs and their lastability because i've stopped using PC computers in 1999. I can only justify the Mac's ability to be worth every penny.

#87 - Pixelator

I have had the same Dual 1ghz G4 for an editing/DVD authoring workstation for four years now, and have no plans to upgrade to a new machine until Leopard ships on systems next year. This is the longest I have ever had a computer and I couldn't be happier. It is by far the greatest value I have gotten out of a system.

On top of that, I haven't had to reformat and reinstall the operating system ONCE in that entire period I've had it, even when installing major OS updates. I don't have to do that often with WinXP compared with every few months on Windows 98, but I know there is no way I could keep a WinXP installation for four years and have it as snappy and responsive as the day I first installed it.

Apple makes some really good stuff, all I'm saying.

Apple make a consumer product and a pro product. they make a consumer laptop and desktop (macbook and mac mini) and they make a pro laptop and desktop(macbook pro and mac pro).

The consumer products are perfect for the average user.

The pro products are perfect for the Professional user.

The new Mac pro can't be built for that price (something we never seem to consider when building a computer is the price of software).

and with the ability to upgrade to 16 gigs of Ram and 2tb of HDD, this computer is made for High Def video editing, and huge pixel brushes in photoshop.

and if you want to play some games, You can through boot camp (it will even run vista).

and to GSI. You're wrong. there are no compatability problems with boot camp. Boot camp is not a parallel or a virtulization, it's the actual windows running on the mac hardware. I've used it, and it brings back horrid flashbacks.

And about you never having any problems with viruses and such. how many times a week doyou run ad aware? how up to date is norton anti-virus? How is your firewall holding up? how many times have you reinstalled your OS?

I have none of that on my Mac because it isn't needed.

Re: KoolAidMan "blind fanboy rantings"

You'd think people would get tired of throwing this empty ad homenim around - I'm hardly a "fanboy" for PCs. There isn't even a single company involved to be a "fanboy" for! If you mean Microsoft, I dislike a hell of a lot of things about them...I'm never going to buy an 360 if I can help it (and since their biggest buzz-worthy exclusive release thus far is being made by Cliffy B!, I think I'll be able to hold back on that one for a long time). Although it bears noting that Gates is one hell of a philanthropist, while Steve Jobs....not so much.

re: x23 -
Thanks for the unnecessary history lesson! What was said, and was untrue, was that linux "copied OS X", which is patently untrue - even from your cartoon! They're both related to similar root branches, yes. Not a response to what I said. And even if it was, it still misses the point: if you are a power user and you absolutely have to have some unix based goodies, then you could run Linux. It has the capacity to run anything a malware-phobic, unix-loving savvy user could ask for. To which others have already said: "I don't know how to do that."

Which prompts the question - what, exactly, do you need those Dual Core Xeon processors for? If you are doing heavy-duty image or audio editing, then your purchase of a high end Mac makes perfect sense. But otherwise? All of that power is going to go to waste. Sure, you can install bootcamp - and end up with a much bigger buggy hassle than you would get just with a Windows machine, even if you don't know how to keep it virus-free and the registry clean (and since boot camp is still in beta, it makes all of those "but I need my warranty!" arguments invalid about why not to build your own machine. I just don't know what kind of weird segment of computer users it is that need a high end machine, aren't power gamers, and don't have the computer knowledge to have a clean running PC or Linux setup. Folks who want to throw nearly 3 grand at a machine that can pump out those new and improved To-Do notes really fast, I guess. But hey, buy what you want. If decreased demand makes those motherboards cost less on Newegg, I'm all for it.

pixelator:

Please get off the pipe. The pricing is right. It is for a Dell Precision 690 (64bit, 75W), Quadro 4500 card, 2GB 667 RAM, optical drive, 250GB HD.

Oh and TWO 5150 "WOODCREST" cpus. NOT THE OLD XEON. AND TWO OF THEM. TRY USING THE NEW ONE.

And whatever, even using your price, it is still hundreds more than a Mac.

So explain to me how is the Mac overpriced??

And about your xps "destroying" the macbook pro. WHATEVA. I have a friend that happens to have both. And yes, the Dell is faster overall. Mostly due to the faster graphics card. And I'm not sure ~20% faster is "destoying" the mbp.

But it is also basically useless as a portable. It weighs about 4 pounds more and is about twice as big. Oh and if you set it so your seeing that extra performance, your battery life is about 80 minutes.

And I'm not even going to get into the ass-ugly design of the xps. Hint: just adding fan lights does not constitute design.

And your on crack if you think an inspiron destroys a macbook pro. The 15" mbp is basically the fastest 15" you can buy. Feel free to google the benchmarks. So I guess the integrated graphics that are standard on the Dell Inspiron 15" are what does it? Or maybe the optional x1400 graphics? Oh wait, the Macbook Pro comes with x1600 graphics. Ok, then in must be the cpu. Oh wait, the Macbook Pro has a 2.16 cpu. And the Dell tops out at 2.0.

Hmm, I guess the Dell gets that "destroying" peformance from the extra weight it's carrying around. Or maybe all that plastic is performance enhancing.

Pfft.

Pixelator your are obviously living in the past. And refuse to accept that the current Macs are price and performance competitive.

I'm done with talking about this with you.

You've been completely punked. You just don't want to admit it.

--> "And about you never having any problems with viruses and such. how many times a week doyou run ad aware? how up to date is norton anti-virus? How is your firewall holding up? how many times have you reinstalled your OS?"

I actually don't have a spyware program installed on my machine at all b/c I don't need one. I know better then to install some program that advertises with popus saying it will "make my computer run faster."

For the record I stopped using Norton years ago. I used AVG Antivirus Free Edition for a while and it worked fine and was less intrusive then Norton. I now use NOD32 which is way better then Norton could ever wish to be.

Both my Windows firewall and D-link router firewall are just fine and I've NEVER had a problem with someone trying to break in or had trojan problems.

The only time I do a full reinstall of my OS is when I buy new hardware that requires it, such as changing the motherboard (which is rare.) I have Norton Ghost backups of my OS with all programs and tweaks ready when I want to start fresh. I can have my machine back and running from a Ghost restore in maybe 30-45 min (depending on how large the image is.)

I do quite a bit on my desktop (and laptop)...gaming, texture painting in Photoshop, some stuff in Illustrator, video capture/editing rarely plus the usual intenet stuff. It will on occasion start to slow down, which is why I have Ghost images ready to go on an entirely seperate hard drive.

So if you were trying to make me look like I didn't know what I was doing or that I am some n00b who doesn't know how to use a computer...then you failed BIG TIME.

You may have none of that BECAUSE the Mac market comapred to PC usage is TINY. If the tables were turned and Apple own most of the market, there would be viruses, spyware, etc. for Macs. It's common sense!

#74 I understand that the Mac Pro is geared towards professionals, the kinds of companies that would have bought $10K Sun and SGI workstations 10 years ago.

My point is, Apple does not make any system geared towards "power users". As #95 says, they make a system for the "average consumer", and a system for "professionals". But they make nothing in between for the "advanced consumer".

OS X is a good operating system for power users. It has a unix core and shell, it's comes with the compilers and SDKs, it's basically a commercial linux distro. They just don't make the kind of hardware that power users want.

GSI: Just wanted to say "thanks for the laugh". You're so terrible at arguing an appreciable position by dodging facts and resorting to the worst of logical fallacies that it was actually humorous. You might not be a 14 year old kid who's thrashing because people are excited about a different COMPUTER PLATFORM (of all the things to be visibly upset about), but you certainly come off that way.

For everyone else, a few points:

There's a lot of talk about how Mac Pros aren't gaming systems. This is nothing short of obvious, so arguing it is ridiculous. However, is anyone here going to deny that with a new video card, this would not be a more-than capable gaming rig?

There's some arguing about whether or not OS X is more stable or not. As someone who actually develops for both machines, I can tell you that by design OS X is more stable. There are mechanisms at work there that XP doesn't even really have anything comparable to.

And to everyone arguing that OS X doesn't have ANY viruses because it's not popular yet, a big "LOL". Again, by design it's simply much more secure. You guys have no idea what OS X is actually built on (yes, it's Unix, but do you know what that actually means?).

I'd also like to add that getting a virus into the OS X world is a black hatter's *dream*. Do you have any idea how popular the writer of that virus would be? That person would have shattered everyone's "illusion" that Macs are safe. So please, don't even use that lame "oh, it's because noone uses it!" crap. Apple is a very high-profile company and this would be -huge- news if someone actually wrote a real virus that didn't depend on social engineering.

As far as OS X being better than XP goes, that's all opinion. There is software that you can't get on XP that OS X has, and much of that is professional level stuff. The fact that you can boot XP on a Mac, I think, gives you the best of both worlds and this is nothing that should be sneered at.

Ah well, troll away.