Will Xbox 360 XNA succeed where Sony failed? [Update 1]

by Kyle Orland { Aug 14th 2006 at 12:25PM }

When Microsoft allows would-be developers to develop Xbox 360 games from their own homes, it won't be the first time a major console company has opened up its hardware to consumer coders. In 1997, Sony released the Net Yaroze, a system of coding tools that allowed consumers to develop for the original PlayStation.

Roughly translating to "let's work together" in Japanese, the Net Yaroze was available directly from Sony for $750 in the U.S. (European and Japanese versions were also available). Games were coded on the PC or Mac, and could be transferred to a special Black region-free PlayStation for play, or distributed on the Internet for use by other Net Yaroze users. The goal, according to Sony's Phil Harrison, was to "go back to the golden age of video game development, which was at home, on your own or with a couple of friends, designing a game yourself."

The system's impact was severely limited, though. While some Net Yaroze demos were made available through PlayStation Underground and Official PlayStation Magazine demo discs, none of the Net Yaroze games were able to break out into wider distribution on their own. [Update 1: Apparently one game, Devil Dice, did make the jump from Net Yaroze to wider development. Thanks Coollead]

Keep reading for more about Net Yaroze's failure and what Microsoft can do to avoid the same fate.

Why did the Yaroze fail? Exclusivity was part of the problem. While the system technically let anyone with a computer and a few hundred dollars develop for the PlayStation, the games were only playable by a few thousand other Net Yaroze users. To get a game out to the millions of PlayStation users worldwide, a Net Yaroze programmer still had to go through the established gauntlet of publishers and retailers. This made it hard for the small, quirky games developed on the system to gain a following.

The system was also hampered by technical problems. Games for the Net Yaroze had to be squeezed onto the PlayStation's internal RAM, meaning they couldn't be much larger than a few megabytes in size. It was still possible to make very impressive games within this constraint -- the original Ridge Racer is run completely from the RAM, for instance -- but creating expansive games with detailed art or vast levels was tough. The Net Yaroze also reportedly lacked some of the more advanced hardware and software features of a full development kit.

What can Microsoft learn from all of this? The first lesson is to make the system as accessible as possible. Microsoft has indicated a vision for a "community arcade" where developers can "share this stuff with people online, potentially sell it in time to people online," but it's not yet clear how this system will manifest itself. Anyone with Xbox Live should have access to anything created by XNA developers, without additional hardware or subscription fees. If Microsoft puts up too many walls to distribution, it could prevent a hot game from finding its niche and breaking out into the mainstream..

Another lesson is to give XNA developers some form of support structure for their projects. Net Yaroze users could collaborate on a Sony-supported web site, sharing tips and routines and working together on problems. Microsoft's "creators club" will offer a similar environment for XNA coders to develop and thrive. They should make sure this club has full support and information from Microsoft engineers to make it invaluable to XNA coders.

Given Sony's history with Net Yaroze, could a similar system for the PS3 be in the works? Sony has hinted that homebrew Linux coding will be allowed on the system, it remains to be seen if this sort of development will be encouraged or merely tolerated. Nintendo has also hinted at support for indie developers on its virtual console, though how these games would be presented next to Nintendo's massive library of classics remains to be seen. Overall, though, it seems the environment for independent development on consoles has never been so open and potentially fruitful.

Read -- Net Yaroze on Wikipedia
Read -- Sony Net Yaroze FAQ
Read -- May 28, 1998 N.Y. Times article on Net Yaroze

Tags: Playstation, Xbox Live, Xbox Live Arcade, XboxLive, XboxLiveArcade, XNA, yaroze

Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)

khkg @ Aug 14th 2006 12:37PM

Perhaps one reason for limiting tools and functionality of the hobbyist developer kits is to justify the high cost of the commrcial ones?

logikil @ Aug 14th 2006 12:43PM

How long will it take for this to become a Sony Fanboy rant about how Joystiq hates Sony? Any takers?

Tim @ Aug 14th 2006 12:44PM

Joystiq just has to be anti-Sony even if the news article has nothing to do with them.

"Ok we have this news about XNA, but we need some anti-sony stuff."

"Hmm... remember 9 years ago when Sony released that thing kinda like XNA that barely anyone knows about and not many people could afford/know how to use? Lets add that in the article and just slap 'Sony failed' in the title."

"Sounds great!"

Redeemer31 @ Aug 14th 2006 12:47PM

One minute apparantly.

Draco @ Aug 14th 2006 12:47PM

@logikil

not long aparently :P hahaha.

Ps2 had linux which I would assume you could make games for too. Ps3 will probably have something similar to this.

logikil @ Aug 14th 2006 12:47PM

Holy shit i got a Star! :)

potato @ Aug 14th 2006 12:48PM

#2: Less than one minute it seems! :D

Sony hatred whining aside, I do think Net Yaroze is relevant. MS is trying to do the same thing Sony tried oh so long ago, and it's a valid and interesting question about whether or not XNA is different enough, and have the times changed enough, that true indie console development can take off?

darryl @ Aug 14th 2006 12:51PM

"Why did the Yaroze fail?"

Simply because you had to own Net Yaroze in order to run content created with it. I thought that was pretty obvious?

XBLA software sounds like it will run on all consoles, and that will make homebrew on it a success.

Sony's PS3 may also also for restricted homebrew via the Linux OS it ships with since you gain access to a huge library of development tools for free. Ofcourse no one knows what plans Sony has (if any) to support similar user-created content.

jabbertrack @ Aug 14th 2006 12:55PM

to be honest... this XNA stuff is pretty cool sounding but it's going to be up to the people making games to determine how successful it is...

so it's really in MS's best interest to make it as easy as possible

it sounds like they "get" that concept, once the community starts working with it we should be able to tell by the 2nd or 3rd batch of games

So question... if someone takes a Mario 3 rom and manages to get it to work on XNA... are we looking at a whole new method of piracy?

In that case who does Nintendo go after?

fahmi @ Aug 14th 2006 12:56PM

If anyone will make this user-created game hub right, it should be Microsoft. Afterall, Microsoft is a software company with an unbeatable track record. and they actually have knowledge about programming and game software (.Net, Visual Studio, DirectX) more than Snny and Nintedo.

Cabrill @ Aug 14th 2006 1:01PM

I'm more excited for this than I have been for anything in a LOOONG time. I remember having similar thoughts when the Wii was announced with cheap development kits, but nothing in the $100 range. I would gladly pay $100 to develop games on the Xbox 360, even if anything I made would be distributed as freeware on XBLA. Make a game good enough and you can point to it for years on any resumes you submit to game developers, and if it's good enough to get some recognition you're a sure thing. The only thing limiting your potential is your skill, not the people you know already in the business, which is exactly how it should be(the former)!

crono141 @ Aug 14th 2006 1:03PM

Since to distribute you probably have to go thru official channels, you either won't see a SMB3 thru this XNA, or nintendo can go right to the programmer and sue them.

I'm almost certain that for anything to sell on XBLA from XNA, it will have to go thru MS certification. This will prevent harmful and illegal code from getting onto other peoples X-box.

However, illegal stuff could probably be distributed on the net and put on xbox via the home PC. Not sure how that connectivity works though, since I don't yet own a 360.

LuckyT @ Aug 14th 2006 1:06PM

Did we all just completely forget about Linux on PS2? It was a pretty big step forward from Net Yaroze. PS3 Linux looks like a logical step forward again, with it being available on everyone's hard drive. And that's one key way it trumps this new MS initiative - MS do not plan to allow everyone to access user-created content until 3-5 years down the road, whereas every PS3 owner will have Linux and will be able to create and try out other user-created games, for free.

Wendy @ Aug 14th 2006 1:06PM

The Yaroze program failed in the US at least because of lack of support from Sony. They created a website that allowed each member to create their own webpage as we as keeping a central newsgroup on the server. Unfortunately, there were few posts leaving members to what they could figure out from the very vague documentation and simplest of samples. The Yaroze program was a great idea but was slightly too expensive for most people and the serial cable transfer kit was horrible to work with.

Guru @ Aug 14th 2006 1:07PM

Net Yaroze is not as relevant as PS2 Linux. Yes there were only a couple of thousands units available, but they were sold fairly quickly (sold out in North America right now).

Many people, including me, got a fair bit of use out of it. There are actually some very detailed projects like this one :
http://playstation2-linux.com/files/gravastar/gravastar_demo.wmv

Scott @ Aug 14th 2006 1:08PM

Why did Yaroze fail? Price for starters...$750 for the development kit + how much for the special console?

XNA Express is free to start development on the PC. The only time you need to pay a fee is for when you want to start putting games on the 360 and that is only for $100.

I'll give MS props for one thing...their development support is outstanding. MSDN is just a wealth of information for developers.

Jeramy @ Aug 14th 2006 1:09PM

Good point.... although nintendo might just go after both... i mean - if they're still developing more stuff for the public in the next year or two... then they might just endup taking XNA developers on in court, or something like that.

RP @ Aug 14th 2006 1:12PM

I think that today's educational climate is also a lot different than when the Yarouze was released. Universities and technical schools everywhere are introducing game development tracks; this is something that could really bring game programming to the masses, much like the Internets and recording tech advances have made the music scene much more accessible over the past 15 years or so.

SonicRift @ Aug 14th 2006 1:13PM

I remember seeing the Yaroze in GamePro and wanting it cuz it was black, and so much cooler than bland grey.

Wouldn't it be great if someone made an app for video playback? Or ported SNES9x? I've gotta wonder if that would be possible/allowed...

I think the biggest difference between XNA and Yaroze will be in-console internet distribution. Marketplace, if I remember correctly, was going to be a place where we could share user created content. Looks like this is a step in the right direction.

Wasn't Devil Dice made on a Net Yaroze?

Scott @ Aug 14th 2006 1:15PM

#10 - We'll see. Nothing is official since the PS3 hasn't even launched yet. Sony's constant squashing of homebrews with their PSP "firmware updates" really makes me wonder about they will and won't allow for PS3 homebrew.

Rootbeer @ Aug 14th 2006 1:16PM

Did we all just completely forget about Linux on PS2?

Yes. Yes we did.

("We" including Sony, who never provided more than minimal support for PS2 Linux.)

KawF @ Aug 14th 2006 1:19PM

I'm personally just shocked at seeing a well-reasearched facts-based article on Joystiq, it is something of a rarity.

I have high hopes for the PS3 in regards to homebrew, way higher than what I have for the 360's homebrew scene. Why?

Linux.

Without too much difficulty, a lot of apps and games should be possible to port to the PS3 Linux system in a very short time, as long as Sony continues their history of providing fully functional Linux systems such as has been available on PS2 at least, I think the Net Yaroze was Linux-based too.

And with nice things such as the Quake 3 engine being fully open source and already quite a few games made with it available, should be nice.

The main problem with the PS2 Linux, was quite basically, that in order to fully use it, you had to get a "devkit", as cheap as it was, it was still not standard. And the only way to run these games and apps of course was quite tricky too as I understand it without the Linux devkit.

With Linux available as standard on every PS3 this problem should be long gone. (With all certainty the main OS of the PS3 is not Linux, Linux will most likely run in a fully capable semi-protected mode where it can't mess with the actual PS3 OS that commercial (Think EA, Ubisoft etc) games require.)

XNA sounds good, but as I've understood it, it will be not too userfriendly at first, requiring everyone that wants to run these homebrew games to have the devkit software. No physical kit needed of course, but at least the full software environment. As I understood it though, that is supposed to change later on. Then of course that pesky little $99 developer license... It's not much... but... I like free stuff. :)

The first thing you will see on both platforms (Xbox 360 and PS3 will be NES or SNES emulators, both are easy enough to port and quite popular for some reason... ;) Later you might start seeing some arcade emulators. Later on some real homebrew games and such.

I think I understand now why Microsoft wants every developer that wants software on the 360 at least initially to register with them... Could be quite bad to have MAME out as homebrew running everything from PAC-MAN to StreetFighter II emulated "for free" and with multiplayer online, when they have this platform of their own, offering games at a cost, you might have heard of it, the Live Arcade? :)

Let's all just hope that both companies initiatives enable some competent homebrewers to produce some really nice games and apps, and that they and their games and apps do get the recognition they deserve.

I see this as a return of the wonderfull Amiga-days, but with better graphics. :)

Wedge @ Aug 14th 2006 1:25PM

A big difference would be developing for the 360 will be much simpler for small developers to get into. It's pretty close to coding Windows games for the PC, which you see tons of small time games done for already. Heck there's even pre-made engines you could licensce for relatively cheap that would work on the 360 *coughTorquecough*.

JimmyHACK @ Aug 14th 2006 1:27PM

this should be cool, i personally have no interest in making games, i wonder who profits off the games, sounds like a new cash cow for ms.

i do like the joystiq chef though, takes some MS news throw a lil anti-sony spice.... and you have another day another sony bash

Twist @ Aug 14th 2006 1:27PM

The thing that is going to help this succeed is the fact that you don't have to purchase any special hardware. If Sony did something like this with the PSP maybe it would be popular enough that major publishers/developers wouldn't be ditching the platform.

While it was possible to develop Net Yaroze games with Mac's it wasn't a feature that was supported by Sony and it cost around $300 more to do since you had to purchase Codewarrior for Playstation and a DB-9 adapter cable yourself. I know the magic 8ball would say "outlook is dim" but hopefully Microsoft will officially support Mac's at least with the "professional offering" (umm isn't XNA Tools a professional offering already???). There are quite a few talented developers working in the Mac shareware scene that would be able to add some great titles to XBLA (such as Airburst Extreme http://airburstextreme.com/).

LuckyT @ Aug 14th 2006 1:29PM

"A big difference would be developing for the 360 will be much simpler for small developers to get into. "

Coding in Linux is not difficult, in fact I had an easier time with it than I had initially with Windows coding. Beyond OS specifics, though, they're the exact same (well, it would be if MS used C++ anyway). And you can actually code on Windows using Visual Studio and then copy your code to Linux and compile and build there if you like. Lots of useful things will also be ported very quickly to PS3 Linux, (things like the Quake 3 engine, for example, as mentioned earlier, would be pretty much immediately available).

Derbeste @ Aug 14th 2006 1:32PM

I think a more appropriate question is, "Did it fail"?

I ask that because it seems to me that this whole outing was nothing more than an experiment.

It was an attempt to gather information to see if there was a market.

It seems to me they did gather that information successfully.

The answer was either "no" or "not at this time".

KawF @ Aug 14th 2006 1:40PM

Why are Sony trying to stop "homebrew" on PSP?

Quite simply, the "homebrew" is not "homebrew". What people are using that all for is to run pirated games. A sideeffect of that whole movement is the somewhat actual and legit homebrew community.

The PSP has no hardware protection as far as I know against that type of deal, so the only way for Sony to combat piracy on the PSP is to stop all attempts at running unsigned software on it. It's that simple.

The PS3 and Xbox 360 however have hardware in place which is used to make certain that this should not in any way be possible, quite unlike the PSP.

I still don't get why people rag on the PSP. It was clearly never designed to allow execution of homemade apps in plain binary form, it would simply open up too many security holes.

Just as a guess though, Sony could always release some scripted language and runtime later on for the PSP, but I doubt it.

So to sum it up: The PSP hardware is not designed with security in mind, so letting people run "homebrew" would allow for rampant piracy.

Hoffer @ Aug 14th 2006 1:41PM

I had never heard of this Net Yaroze thing before today.

I think this XNA thing sounds cool. I won't be making any games myself, but look forward to trying some by others.

Coollead @ Aug 14th 2006 1:43PM

What about Devil Dice? It was originally a Net Yaroze game that was picked up and fleshed out and published as a commercial game.

It was quite fun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil_Dice

the_game_master @ Aug 14th 2006 1:45PM

this Net Yaroze info is new to me, I never knew Sony was doing this for PSX, I know they were definitly promoting self made development for PlayStation 2 with the Linux Kit, but as always Sony don't really provide good support and they effectively killed the Linux kit in America.

I think where one company blows a opportunity, there's chance for another to pick it up. I saw the BBC news report this morning of Microsoft issuing a consumer game development suite for Xbox 360 owners, and I'm kind of excited by this. I don't even own an Xbox but the very idea of this is pushing me to go and get one. Plus with Microsoft, you know there's going to be a full range of end user support, place they'll likely make the development software easy to use since its being made for end consumers in mind.

Cage @ Aug 14th 2006 2:16PM

Does anyone else see a Kawf comment before you even see his name? Seriously...Am I the only one who does this?

Kawf. The PS3 has not launched yet. Its what, 4 months away and I have yet to see a commercial for it or know how their online service will work? Wouldnt you want to know what type of "E-distribution" there is before you believe all the hype on Linux!?!? Am I the only one that is stunned how blind this guy is?!?! Im going crazy...

Derbeste @ Aug 14th 2006 2:27PM

Cage:

He's not blind. He's an enthusiast. And one of the few supporters of Sony that posts regularly on this site that uses sources, logic, and real evidence to support his claims.

I don't always agree with his conclusions based on what he presents. I don't even agree with some of the evidence he presents. But he is one of the few that goes about supporting himself with real quality.

No, nothing has launched. But that is what makes blogs and speculation so fun. :)

Wedge @ Aug 14th 2006 2:32PM

Quake 3 is not free to use if people actually want to make a small game to sell. And I doubt any freeware homebrew games are going to need the power of even the Q3 engine. Homebrew apps are interesting for tech demos, coffee games, and primarily as media devices. Nobody gives a crap about homebrew games on the PSP, they want the emulators and movie players written for it.

In any case, it's not even comparable to what you can dev with on the 360. Fully modern shader based 3d engine? Or maybe a powerful hardware accelerated 2d-engine, with a user friendly frontend?

http://www.garagegames.com/products/torque/x

Pwnt.

KawF @ Aug 14th 2006 2:39PM

@Cage

Have you missed their [Sony's] presentations at GDC and E3-06 and other events where they have outlined their online strategy? If so I would recomend gamespot and other sources for such information. Should be quite easy to find through google.

The official way of becoming a commercial developer for the Sony E-Dist Initiative:
us.playstation.com/beyond/welcome.html

More info on that:
www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=9931

"hype on linux"? What do you mean by that? What does it have to do with E-distribution?

Here's some info on what little is known officially about the Linux side of things:
www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=9290
www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=9547

And here's the official Playstation 2 Linux site:
http://playstation2-linux.com/

Here's the current Cell BE SDK from IBM (compilers and such) and more info on Cell:
http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/power/cell/

Considering their past actions on delivering Linux-based development systems for home users, semi proffessional developers, and those that are interrested in becoming professional Playstation developers, I would bet that yes, they will offer quite a good platform for games and software this time around. Previously they were, just as Microsoft were in part, hindered by the relatively low performance and lacking security features of those hardware systems needed to offer this type of support.

Am I wrong in believing this? I don't think so. If you like to call me blind for not being a Microsoft fanboy, fine, do so. All I am doing is extrapolating a theory based on current and historical facts.

Cage @ Aug 14th 2006 3:00PM

"Here's some info on what little is known officially about the Linux side of things:"

Exactly my point. Little is known. But yet its much better than whatever MS offers (even though you have yet to use either). But still...makes you the complete expert of the two.

"Have you missed their [Sony's] presentations at GDC and E3-06 and other events where they have outlined their online strategy? If so I would recomend gamespot and other sources for such information."

I go off of whats real. What I can see. What is told in either a commercial with footage or by me playing it. Not by a corporate head blabbing on about how there is an "emotion engine". My grandpa always said, "Believe nothing you hear, and half of what you see".

I know youre a fanboy and thats cool. I just wanted to make sure that I'm not the only one in this blog who feels the way I do. And because I dont believe everything Sony gives to me doesn't make me a fanboy. It makes me a CONSUMER.

Clyde @ Aug 14th 2006 3:01PM

So they copied Sony again. Why can't they come up with their own ideas?

Scott @ Aug 14th 2006 3:04PM

#29 - Those links don't tell us much about PS3's plans.

What I gathered is:
1) Sony plans to copy XBL Arcade.
2) Individuals can use Linux on the PS3 but won't have access to the important rendering and physics libraries.
3) Support for individuals doing development on the PS3 will be nil. You have to pay for the full PS3 SDK to get support.
4) No plans to include homebrews as part of the e-Distribution.

s7r1k3r @ Aug 14th 2006 3:07PM

@ Kawf

I understand your enthusiasm towards Sony but like a previous poster said about psp have you seen the support they give to that. They are well known for their crackdowns on homebrew and I beleive in position to help anyone unless it helps their bottom line. Even their md player software sucks balls. They use linux cuz its free, no other reason.

tactics @ Aug 14th 2006 3:15PM

somehow i get the feeling that this whole initiative is to deliberately create an avenue for nintendo/retro emulation, as this was not only a huge incentive to buy an original xbox, but will also effectively destroy nintendo's virtual console for a good 50% of potential-adopters... it's really fucking sad. so many people with xboxen would sit around and do nothing but load pirated nes/snes (and even n64!) games and play those all day long... that used to piss me off in a way that not many things can. looks like microsoft (and sony, with the linux thing) isn't waiting for hackers to make this happen - they're just doing it themselves!

microsoft: have some decency. please put some kind of system in place to disallow the use of emulators through this development platform! :(

...somehow i feel my cries are pointless, and that this exact reason was their intent all along. i hope i'm wrong.

-"superfan" tactics.

Scott @ Aug 14th 2006 3:24PM

#33 - LMAO. Yes, MS execs have been going around touting XNA and talking about removing the barriers to game development for a couple of years now just to destroy Nintendo's Virtual Console which was only announced months ago....

LaughingTarget @ Aug 14th 2006 3:26PM

While the inclusion of Linux on the PS3 platform is a plus, the question to be begged is if that really makes it a simple development tool. The exact same development tools were available for the PS2, yet we have not exactly seen many small-time developers crop up or even websites that distribute home-made games.

I think the real question is the hardware. Cell is based on a radical new design concept. The 360 has a more traditional x86 core (albeit with three dual-core versions). Homemade developers are used to using x86 processors, and this is because Linux is so popular. Linux machines typically run off those processors.

The way these kits are described is enthusiasts develop their games on a PC or Mac then transfer them over to the Playstation. If the same goes with the PS3 and XNA, you can imagine most of the enthusiasts will tend to side with XNA based on simplicity of transfer and pre-existent knowledge on how to program for it. Even if development of a PS3 game can be done directly on the PS3 unit, there will be a considerable delay between homemade 360 titles and homemade PS3 titles due to architechture differences.

On a side note, I believe both XNA and PS3 Linux developing will be a spectacular failure. To be a success, Microsoft and Sony are going to have to put a lot of monetary backing behind the project, money they will never see returned to them. Sure, MS or Sony could demand royalties to distribute titles through their respective online services, but the returns would generate huge losses within tolerable royalty fees or the fees would be so outrageous homebrew games would stay PC only simply because the distribution is relatively free. Sony simply cannot tolerate any more losses and keep viable as a business and Microsoft is interested in pulling a profit on this machine, so adding a major cost that offers minimal enjoyment to the consumer base is questionable.

Then there is the question of distribution itself. Many free games are getting to be fairly large in size. Many mods, like Half-Life 2 ones, are getting to be fairly large as are the various free games. Even the large hard drive that comes with the PS3 will get overwhelmed quickly when homebrew developers use a full BluRay sized disk to make their title. Both XNA and PS3 users may end up at a point where they will have to download the homebrew game on to their PC and burn it onto a disk that can be played on the unit.

The HD size problem will require Sony and Microsoft to develop a free downloadable program that can properly decode and burn homebrew games to be properly read by the consoles. Such a system will only open up to piracy problems and be a further burden on PS3 owners who have to also go out and purchase a grossly expensive $1,000 BluRay burner and $16 per disk blank media (25 gig version).

True, if XNA and PS3 Linux games were given the Xbox Live Arcade limitations of 50 megs, that need for a burner wouldn't be necessary. But, that would only hamper any enthusiastic development group trying to get attention to their skills and capabilities.

Bottom Line: Unless Microsoft and Sony are willing to contribute massive amounts of free bandwidth, storage space, and open themselves up to more piracy, homemade console games are going to fall flat on their face, much like they have over the PS1 and PS2 generations. Anyone wanting to develop and distribute any titles with any aspirations of "going pro" are going to have to shell out the big bucks for a traditional developer kit and try to get publishers to notice their work.

KawF @ Aug 14th 2006 3:31PM

Just some background on me if it helps:
I've been a professional developer for quite a few years now, and have since before then been a "hobby developer" for let's see... about 10 years. Now I develop mainly for Windows, Windows CE, Linux and some Mac, on platforms of all types ranging from multi-ghz PC's to embedded systems with at most 200mhz and memory constraints you would not believe.

My main area is programming user applications of all types and the code that gets the job done behind the scenes. I have also spent quite a few years developing games, none professionally yet, but that might be my next move. What I found most interresting about developing for embedded systems was that you have to know them really, really good and be one heck of a programmer to fully take advantage of them. One bad line of code and you're screwed litteraly.

That got me interrested in developing games for a living, and that is probably what I am going to do when I find my next job. I really don't give a rats ass to which platform it is as long as it gives me the power and control I need in order to do my job properly. "Ease of use" is a really tricky thing. I have found that most often it just looks "easy", but when you start doing some interresting things where you actually need power, you're in reality just hindered by that.

And oh, btw, yes, Quake 3 is very much a free engine full out for you to use, even in commercial projects. The only restriction is that you have to release the source code, nothing more, to whoever asks for it. It does not mean that you have to give away what makes your game, your game as in data, art, sound or music. You can in fact use the Q3 engine with very minor modifications and make some really good FPS:es and other games. This of course also applies to the Q1 and Q2 engines.

If you want something more "free" to use, as in actually, let's you restrict the openess of your code, then there are many engines for graphics, sound, AI, physics and everything you might need.

Some of them [Quake-based] and other games (multiplatform or linux) should be possible to find through:
http://happypenguin.org/

Btw Cage. Believing commercials is the LAST thing you should ever do as a consumer. Seriously.

Personally, I choose to believe what is said at a gathering of actual industry people. Places like GDC are not places where they gain a thing by lying to the people that support them with 3rd party software. Everyone there, except for the "media", who in general missunderstand things immensly, are professionals who develop games for a living. Blowing smoke up their arses will do them [Microsoft, Sony, etc] no good.

The only trustworthy source of game development related news as I've seen is the industry site Gamasutra and their magazines.

@Scott:
1) I won't even dignify this with an answer.
2) What you won't have access to as a developer are SDKs like the Unreal Engine 3 SDK (Did you really expect you would?). That is what they are talking about. Sony has signed up an enormous ammount of middleware that professional developers can chose to bundle-license through Sony. You will still have access to all that matters which is the standard libraries that are available on any computer such as graphics (OpenGL etc) and sound (OpenAL etc). Translated to Microsoft speech: The full DirectX SDK. Anything else such as engines can be found freely available on the internet.
3) Support will if we look at history be available through a community site run by Sony's Linux department as the case is with PS2-Linux.
4) Why should it have to be available through their e-dist initiative? That initiative is aimed at PROFESSIONAL developers. If you as a homebrew coder decide that you want to sell your software through it, you will have to start a small business just as you would have to if you would want to get on XBLA or the Virtual Console fron Nintendo. The whole point of homebrew is that it is freely available for all to use. If Sony wants to make a part of their community site dedicated to free hosting of such, then great. Otherwise, you can just go download the game, "install it" and run it. As far as I've understood XNA for "homebrew" does not in ANY WAY tie in to XBLA. It's all about distributing it yourself. And for the first year or so, anyone who wants to try your software even has to install the full development environment. Of course, over time that may change... but that's how it looks like now.

tactics @ Aug 14th 2006 3:37PM

well scott, regardless of whether or not the virtual console was announced, emulation was a huge incentive to buy an xbox for those who were "in the know", and there's no doubt in my mind that microsoft knows that.

i feel as though they'd prefer, though, (just a little... heh.) that people were able to have this incentive without being able to actually pirate official xbox titles... so a solution would be... what? offer a cheap sdk for use only with the live arcade, and give half of the hackers exactly what they want: emulators.

this all really puts a serious damper on sales of games for nintendo's virtual console, whether they knew about it at the time or not.

i hope i'm wrong. i hope microsoft decides not to allow full-blown emulation. somehow i doubt it, and believe that it'll be a matter of just *weeks* after these kits are released that we'll be seeing all the 360 owners playing super mario world - for free - and loving it.

...and pissing me off.

-"superfan" tactics.

KawF @ Aug 14th 2006 3:41PM

@LaughingTarget

What? The 360 is based on a three core, "hyper threading" PowerPC processor from IBM. The Cell BE is also from IBM and is also based on a "hyper threading" PowerPC core with 8 sub-processors (of which 7 are available on the PS3).

They are, with the exception for how multi-threading is done on a lower level, pretty much identical to the programmer. They both have the same "problems" as compared to the x86.

And homebrew developers won't even exceed a gigabyte for their games if even a few hundered megabytes, stop worrying about that. Noone will have to go buy an expensive HD-DVD or BluRay burner to get games.

You might have missed it, but at least hte PS3 has full internet connectivity just as the PSP has. You have access to a webbrowser and full access to saving files on your local disk from it.

How Microsoft intends to solve that problem later on, I don't know. Currently as have been said already, you need the full development environment in order to deploy your homebrew to your Xbox 360 from your Windows XP or later-based PC.

Canadian Geese @ Aug 14th 2006 3:41PM

...so if you learn .NET and download the free XNA (for pc only) tool, you can learn to develop games for the PC...

...then, if you choose to pay $99, you can create your games on the 360...

...and this uses tools that are currently available and easily learnable...

...sounds a thousand times better than Linux. Has anyone ever tried to upgrade a video driver on Linux (ubuntu)? Good night!

Dirk Dorkelson @ Aug 14th 2006 4:35PM

"the question to be begged is if that really makes it a simple development tool."

Pet peeve alert. "Begging a question" is not the same as "raising a question" or "asking a question."

It's trying to win an argument by making points that assume your argument is true. It's got a relatively narrow rhetorical usage. You can look it up.

I,Robot @ Aug 14th 2006 4:46PM

...And Sony really wondered why people wouldn’t want to pay $750 bucks for a game system in 1997? Um… yeah. Anti-Sony? Try, anti-hold-on-to-my-money.

epobirs @ Aug 14th 2006 4:48PM

I cannot find any verifying links but as I recall, the group of developers called Scavenger got their start on the demo coding scene and developed their own tool set for creating Sega Genesis demos and later complete games. (It helped a great deal that the Genesis was created from mostly off the shelf chips except for some custom modes in the video chip.) As legend has it, they had Sub-Terrania to a nearly publishable form before coming in contact with Sega and getting official support.

Actually, I would expect the PS3 OS to be Linux based. Nearly all of IBM's Cell work is using Linux and it saves a hell of a lot of time and effort to have that as a starting point. Source code disclosure shouldn't be a big problem since it is all going to be extremely Cell specific stuff and where are you going to go to apply that for a low cost other than the PS3. So long as it doesn't divulge the means to easily bypass the security it isn't going to reveal much of the PS3's proprietary nature that won't soon be all over the net after the hardware is available to the public.

Sony could run those portions they want kept under wraps as an application within the reserved memory space and as such that app wouldn't need to fall under any license requiring soure code disclosure. Making the portions of the OS that deal with the unconventional nature of the Cell entirely open is to Sony and IBM's advantage.