Fuzzy logic: Lara Croft > Mario?
by Ross Miller 
{ Aug 16th 2006 at 2:25PM }
According to "Well, Mario is still very much within the games niche, whereas Lara has gone beyond that thanks to two blockbuster films, for example. She's graced the covers of thousands of not just games journals, but lifestyle journals as well."
We'll admit, much to our chagrin, that Super Mario Bros. film was not the glorious re-imagining of Nintendo's flagship series, nor was it a box office smash (the total domestic gross was $20.9 million, which would be approximately $32.3 million today when adjusted for ticket price inflation). But Mario, we'd argue, is still more of a household name.
While there is no quantitative backing to either assertions, we'd like to point out that Livingstone's support is rather inefficient. In 1966, John Lennon exclaimed that the Beatles were "more popular than Jesus." And while we suspect those zany Brits did grace more magazine covers than the founder of Christianity, it's still a stretch to elevate a band over a world religion.
And though the Mario film sunk, his power was seen elsewhere in pop culture. Not to mention his games tend to do better, both financially and critically.
A quick look at Mario's Wikipedia file reminds us that he has starred in 3 TV Shows and was found in a 1993 national survey to be more recognizable to children than Mickey Mouse. While that was 15 years ago, you may note, Super Mario titles still become instant best-sellers in Japan and North America -- one look at the new platformer for the mainstream-grabbing DS can attest to that.
While we understand Livingstone's desire to pimp extol his company's biggest moneymaker, we still find the statement a bit perplexing. It may, in fact, be true, but Livingstone's evidence is a non sequitur. Sure, the Tomb Raider movies made lots and lots of money, but is Lara Croft, the character, really the reason people flocked to the theatres? As Nintendo was once (as still somewhat is) a synecdoche for gaming, so is Mario connected to game culture. And his simplicity, we feel, gives him a mainstream advantage over other gaming characters.
Here's a few snips of Mario's presence in pop culture, thanks to YouTube:
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
james f. @ Aug 16th 2006 2:31PM
Hmmm I disagree. My grandmother knows who mario is but she wouldn't know lara croft from any other digital bimbo. I say that is a killer litmus of whos more popular. At least moreso than any old gaming pundits opining.
.ed @ Aug 16th 2006 2:33PM
where's the lara cereal?
where'es the lara saturday morning cartoon?
where's the lara playbo- oh...
where's the lara 200 games?
wheres the lara good control scheme? hahaha, own.ed
Sub @ Aug 16th 2006 2:35PM
Those last two videos made me cry.
Niel @ Aug 16th 2006 2:39PM
Bullshit
Fuzz @ Aug 16th 2006 2:42PM
Mhaaaaaaa!!!!! Ahhhhaaaaaaaaa!!!! ahahhahahaahahahahahahahaaa!!!
*deep breath*
AHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!
oh man, that's funny.
Lara Croft more popular than Mario? I think not. One need simply compare the number of games sold. Or popular culture references. Or Mario spottings in real life, like mushrooms, the question block thing, or any number of imitations and replications. This guy has been smoking the same stuff that Sony seams to be indulging in to much as of late. "we are teh bomb, everything else is not are good as we is."
Derbeste @ Aug 16th 2006 2:43PM
Oh come on.
People didn't go to the Tomb Raider movies to see "laura Croft". They went to see "Angilina Jolie".
Mario is everywhere. The original mario theme song is STILL the #1 downloaded ringtone!!!!
Where are the college girls doing Tombraider wall murrels?
So this is the same guy Robert Summa sourced to finally post some "positive PS3" news??
http://www.joystiq.com/2006/08/16/stop-the-presses-positive-ps3-news/
The only way to find some good PS3 news is to quote a crazy man? O.o If this is the way that guy thinks, Ross just did a GREAT job of turning that story from positive to completely negative.
There you have it PS3 fanboys. Joystiq is still anti-Sony. ; )
T-Bag @ Aug 16th 2006 2:43PM
Eidos is talking a lot of shit lately. I cant wait till reality hits them in the face. Oh and by the way, Blood Money sucked, and all Tomb Raider's ever been was just another horrible 3rd person piece of crap for horny nerds. :D
Jeremy G @ Aug 16th 2006 2:44PM
Is there any way to submit a story idea to Joystiq? An email addy or something?
PodMonkeys @ Aug 16th 2006 2:51PM
Mario FTW!
I'd like some of what that guy is taking.
PachuyiChomp @ Aug 16th 2006 2:52PM
Angelina NOT lara croft, has graced magazine covers and lifestyle magazines (and by lifestyle what do they mean Maxim? Of COURSE the busty video game Icon of Eidos is gonna be bigger in that publication than a short hairy plumber. haha)
If you look worldwide I'd almost be willing to put money that remote places such as in remote China have kids playing Nintendo and MARIO and don't even know what a Lara Croft is.
socrates @ Aug 16th 2006 2:56PM
The Beatles' comment about being more popular than Jesus - much like Nietzsche's "God is dead" - has much more to do with the fact that people aren't *really* Christian anymore, that so-called reverence is just a pale shadow of what an authentic connection to something really could be.
But I digress. Could it be said that Mario is dead? I would agree with this - and Super Mario Sunshine was really just an eulogy with an extremely inappropriate name. Mario's haydey was an even WORSE movie than the Lara Croft ones - The Wizard! SMB3 and World were really the last time that Mario had such a monolithic power over gaming. Buzz will never rise again for his character.
But I don't think that the character of Lara Croft is really all that famous either. The original poster's criteria is not which character is biggest in the gaming world, but which one has made the biggest splash OUTSIDE of the gaming world - which, when you think about it, we've seen less of in the past decade than you would think. With huge movie/TV stars you see all kinds of music and commercial crossovers, and that hasn't really happened as much with games....after the Mario/Link fiascos in the early NES years, did everyone just collectively decide to not let gaming invade other media, save the occasional movie? GTA has gotten the most cultural attention in the past 6 years...and Final Fantasy has the most musical influence...but since those gaming franchises aren't built around one consistent character, you don't see the same effect. I don't think there is a clear breakout individual character that fulfills what Livingstone is looking for - Master Chief might come the closest with the new Halo movie.
DCSimian @ Aug 16th 2006 2:59PM
When you have people performing the Mario theme song in concerts, dressing up college campuses like Mario stages and growing 1up mushroom chia pets...you've reached a whole new level of popularity.
That's what you call engrained in pop culture.
Mario >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lara Croft
Halladay @ Aug 16th 2006 2:59PM
Ian Livingstone doesn't have a clue. His company is still trying to live off that period back in the late nineties back where Lara Croft was the "hip" thing of the moment. The rest of the world has moved on.
Aran @ Aug 16th 2006 3:03PM
Is he serious? Making big boobs for a character of mediocre video games doesn't make him famous, neither do bad Hollywood films.
Mario >>>>>>>>>>>>> Lara Croft anytime, anywhere.
P.s Gotta love that Super Mario Bros (c)rap! :D
OyoyoY123 @ Aug 16th 2006 3:04PM
NO he is right
The twins > the brothers
Derbeste @ Aug 16th 2006 3:05PM
Socrates...I want some of what YOU'RE taking too.
"Buzz will never rise again for his character."
Funniest comment I've read in AGES!
And how do you account for the success of NSMB for the DS?
How do you account for the "buzz" around SMB Galaxies?
How do you account for the AMAZING aclaim and success of...ahem...
Mario 64
Mario party series
Super Smash Brothers
New Super Mario Brothers (as mentioned before was the #1 selling game..on ANY system for a while there)
Mario tennis
Mario Golf
Mario Strikers
Up and coming Mario 3 on 3 basketball by SQUARE ENIX of all developers
Mario ringtones
Mario cereal
Mario clothing
Mario's hay day was SMB3??
You, sir, are an idiot.
Ubersnuber @ Aug 16th 2006 3:06PM
Well, Tomb Raider do have bigger gunboats than Mario:P
Anyways:
1: Mario
2: Sonic
3: Whatever..
bingo @ Aug 16th 2006 3:06PM
the results are in.
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Lara+croft&word2=mario
Thryon @ Aug 16th 2006 3:09PM
Under the banner ""the most famous character in gaming.", Mario would win. While most everyone knows of Lara Croft, they tend to know her from the movies only. For example, when I purchased Tomb Raider Legend, the wife was watching me play and asked if this was based off the movies. She did not know of the Tomb Raider games (she is not a gamer). But in contrast, she could identify Lara Croft, but know very little about Mario, other than the name. I do not think she could pick out which one is Mario is a lineup. But she loves Sonic...maybe Sonic the should take the title.
Mal F4cti0n @ Aug 16th 2006 3:11PM
When I think of video game characters; I think Mario.
"Here we go!"
Nothing, and I mean nothing, sticks in my head like that gosh darn phrase. I can't remember dick about any Tomb Raider game I played, let alone some line of dialog.
Derbeste @ Aug 16th 2006 3:18PM
Bingo...
That site is AWESOME!!!
gok @ Aug 16th 2006 3:20PM
Mario also gets title of being most annoying character ever. I'd kill that little fucker the moment i'd see him. Or maybe im just jealous or something because i have NEVER owned any mario nor have playd it for more than 5mins :)
Thryon @ Aug 16th 2006 3:22PM
bingo,
Going by your logic, Simon Belmont would be more popular than Mario;
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=simon&word2=Mario
Or even Ken (from Street Fighter);
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=ken&word2=Mario
Of course, extending that logic a bit, and we have Master Chief pwning Super Mario;
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Halo&word2=%22Super+Mario%22
MetaHuman @ Aug 16th 2006 3:29PM
You know when Mario was introduced he wasn't begging for commercial appeal. Of course Nintendo would hope their game would do well in the crippled Arcade industry but I don't believe they were trying to get movie deals and all that crap.
I mean, Mario was, at the very beginning, a stand-in for Popeye until Nintey's deal with King Features expired and the game became Donkey Kong. POPEYE.
Now you have franchises that are trying to get movie deals, soundtrack deals, tv deals and it doesn't mean spit if the games aren't good. Tomb Raider's success is comprised of the first trilogy (mostly TR1) and its latest game. Mario has sold millions in games spanning at least a dozen genres.
If Laura's more popular because of movies (one of which flopped, resulting in the studio sueing Angel of Darkness' developer for crap product association) what does that say about videogames?
I think in today's industry, too many people are expecting WAAAAAY too much of Mario, or any other franchise in general. Even he had some success as a fad, but over 20 years he's established a HUGE fanbase. Despite this, Mario is and will always be a giant.
Other characters MAY get there, but they need the time and the proper success to earn it. The closest of these characters not directly related to Mario or Nintendo is Sonic.
Crazylink @ Aug 16th 2006 3:32PM
@ Thryon
Going by their full names Mario wins.
Derbeste @ Aug 16th 2006 3:32PM
actually, Thryon...
All the exampled you put forth have at least one common name. So you get all the gaming related hits...AND non gaming specific hits.
And though "Mario" is also a common Italian name, I very much doubt that would account for "Mario" having over 15 TIMES the hits of "lara croft". Especially since "lara" is also a common name.
I think it's pretty safe to say that Mario the gaming character is just more popular than Lara Croft on Google.
gok @ Aug 16th 2006 3:33PM
haha thanks for reminding me bout googlefiht :D
Lets see:
xbox vs. playstaion = xbox wins
sony vs. microsoft = microsoft wins
Actually im very surprised that xbox got more results than playstaion. And no pls sonyfanboys dont get angry im not some idiot saying that xbox is better because it wins googlefight. Just wanted to test it.
reebo @ Aug 16th 2006 3:35PM
You could ask anyone on the street who Mario is, and they'd know. Fewer people would know who Lara is.
But yeah, Beatles > Jesus.
socrates @ Aug 16th 2006 3:38PM
Derbeste -
I know it takes precious time away from angry ad hocs, but why don't you try reading what I said? I did not claim that Croft was bigger than Mario in gaming...and I'm not talking about number of units sold (god knows I bought NSMB, and god also knows I regret that - nothing like a game a 10 year old can beat in 20 minutes).
What I was talking about was the extent to which game characters have effects OUTSIDE of the gaming world. Games that were sensational, and created buzz. So while you have reminded us all that there are a number of titles that have the word Mario in them, I'm afraid I'm going to have to file that under "not at all relevant, but thanks". The only relevant items you mentioned was cell phone ringtones (a category in which Mario gets his lunch handed to him a thousand times over by the everfucking Crazy Frog). But the interesting thing about that is that those ringtones are ALWAYS of the original SMB tune - there is no new-fangled buzz about Mario that inspires marketers/investors to want to do crossover things. All there is is nostalgia, and those few gamers who still enjoy cutsey platformers.
Also - the "buzz" around Galaxy? Please. Nintendo fans are watering at the mouth for Twilight Princess, really excited for MP3, and...well....Galaxy is anticipated....but about on the same level as Excitetruck. In other words, no one seems to be going nuts for it yet. Face it - Mario is a wonderful icon of our youth, but hardly causing people to go nuts in droves over the new content alone. And the more kids that grow up who weren't weaned on SMB, SMB3, SMB World....the sun is definately setting on Mario's importance.
Todd @ Aug 16th 2006 3:40PM
Lara Croft might be popular with the young fanboys goggling her assets, but Mario is still more well known in the United States. Now in Japan, Mario is way hell more popular than Lara.
I don't recall seeing a Lara Croft Monopoly set, do you? ;)
Ubersnuber @ Aug 16th 2006 3:44PM
xbox wins the "googlefight" because their 360 is on the market. Resulting in sites who sell the console/games, game cheats/faqs, fansites etc etc..
Microsoft wins because of one simple reason:
they are bigger.
Please dont send Captain Obvious after me:P
J B Cougar @ Aug 16th 2006 3:50PM
Regardless, this Jason Batemen < Arrested Development Bateman. And what year did I miss where King Koopa turned fem and start riding around on brick thrones in the middle of an ice rink. And socrates, I'm seeing a lot of your opinion in your posts, but they're light on facts. Par for the course, I'm afraid. Maybe you could provide some. Last I checked Mario titles still made bank for nintendo... um, like NSMB, which you say takes the attention span of a toddler to appreciate... Or maybe Mario 3 on 3 in Japan, again another seller. I guess those millions were all the little tikes of the world. Get bent dude.
JPRacer @ Aug 16th 2006 3:55PM
After a comment like that he just lost a lot of credibility. This and calling the PS3 the best videogame console.
Derbeste @ Aug 16th 2006 3:59PM
No....I got what you wrote. And if you look a little closer, you see my last post addesses the world outside gaming.
First of all, why do you think they put the word "Mario" in so many sports genres? To attract non gamers! Because people now sports...and people know Mario!
You also conveniently passed by my mention of mario clothes (take a look just about ANY trend clothing store) and Mario cereal. Do you really think Nabisco was ONLY trying to get gamers to eat their breakfast?
Next up...yes. The ringtone is usually the original SMB. So I'm assuming then that the average person can hum even some melody from ANY Tomb Raider game? Any? Hell..I'm a gamer and I can't even do that. So basically, by your logic, all Nintendo would have to do is start using that tune again and Mario would be "current' (as you put it) again. The point is, the tune is synonomous with Mario. And everyone not only KNOWS it...but WANT it.
Next up.... You TOTALLY ingored the success of NSMB again. How convenient. I'll even add another one. How about the RECENT success of Mario Kart DS? These are the games that are making the DS what it is today. Mario's games alone are selling DSs. What is Tomb Raider: Legends doing for the PSP?.......check and mate.
Lastly, there is already more "buzz" around Galaxies than I EVER heard about Tomb Raider: Legends. Talk about the twilight of importance.
Mario is like Superman. He is embedded into our culture now. And he'll always be around at least as a symbol of quality and innovation.
Oh btw...
As for "Mario" vs. "Superman":
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Mario&word2=Superman
Gerwurztraminer @ Aug 16th 2006 4:11PM
"two blockbuster films"? The first one wasn't bad, but the second movie was terrrrrrible. I felt like walking out of the theater it was so bad, but I was with friends at the time. I should have refunded them their tickets out of my pocket just to get that 2 hours back.
AoE @ Aug 16th 2006 4:17PM
He's insane. An entire generation was raised on Mario, end of story.
Perhaps this bit was just Eidos' attempt to discredit themselves and what they said earlier about the PS3? That story smelled of bs, this one is clearly bs, flies and all...
darryl @ Aug 16th 2006 4:37PM
Laura is infinately easier on the eyes than Mr. Fat-Plumber-Man anyday... it would be hard to forget her , um, curves.
amba @ Aug 16th 2006 4:38PM
Lifestyle magazines? So that's what they call them these days...
Brad Lee @ Aug 16th 2006 4:48PM
@ Socrates
Just face the facts man, Mario is the symbol for video games. Lara Croft might have been an important video game character, but moreso I believe because it showed that sex sells in video games too, even if the breasts are pixilated.
Whether you believe Mario's importance on the video game industry is dwindling or not is irrelevent. This article is about Mario's popularity vs. Lara Croft's. And when it comes to those two characters, Mario is obviously the most popular of the two.
But, as long as you brought up the subject, I do believe Mario's importance has dwindled over the years, but I think that is more because Nintendo has been losing popularity in their consoles. If Wii ends up being half as successful as it almost seems it is destined to be, then expect Mario's popularity explode, far beyond what it has ever been.
And Mario Galaxy doesn't have much buzz? What the hell are you smoking man? It was one of the biggest games in the show! Just read the first couple of paragraphs of IGN's preview.
http://wii.ign.com/articles/707/707184p1.html
teebs @ Aug 16th 2006 4:55PM
synecdoche: A form of metaphor in which the part stands for the whole, the whole for a part, the genus for the species, the species for the genus, the material for the thing made, or in short, any portion, section, or main quality for the whole thing itself (or vice versa).
source: http://home.cfl.rr.com/eghsap/apterms.html
i had no idea what that meant...
Infil @ Aug 16th 2006 4:56PM
I can't believe he said that with, presumably, a straight face. Firstly, he discredits Mario's pop culture appeal. Then, secondly, he credits Lara's personality traits as the reason for her success (she's strong, sexy, independent, all men and women like her, etc).
It's a good thing everybody on the face of the earth (who doesn't work at Eidos) knows better.
Even if you don't like Nintendo, Mario's legacy in gaming and in pop culture is completely and totally undeniable. Lara is two pixelated breasts in a series of games ranging from "tolerable" to "horrible".
fat boy @ Aug 16th 2006 5:15PM
So Lara Croft is the Beatles and Mario is Jesus? Okay by me.
What about Pac-man? I would think older people would recognize Pac-man more readily than Mario. Someone needs to research this.
Donutta @ Aug 16th 2006 5:25PM
Late to the party and stuff, but I just thought I'd add that my dearest mother was able to recognise Lara Croft simply from behind. I thought that was a rather large indication of what a household name she is. I mean, she used to be in Lucozade commercials and U2 even took her on tour. My parents probably both know OF Mario, but I doubt they could tell the difference between Luigi or Mario, even if they could recognise either in the first place.
socrates @ Aug 16th 2006 5:25PM
It is kind of sad that my job has so little going I can spend such a ridiclous amount of time defending myself from people who keep missing the point.
"Next up.... You TOTALLY ingored the success of NSMB again. How convenient. I'll even add another one. How about the RECENT success of Mario Kart DS? These are the games that are making the DS what it is today. Mario's games alone are selling DSs. What is Tomb Raider: Legends doing for the PSP?.......check and mate."
I don't know how many ways I can say this: I. DON'T. CARE. Don't oversimplify this into a stupid/mindless PSP vs. DS argument (I own a DS and NSMB, and I don't have a PSP).
(although I guess you're not going to pay attention if you just want to rant about how many people bought Mario Golf or whatever the hell)...My point is that when you look at other forms of media taking up gaming characters, it is surprising how that has not happened much at all. It happened a hell of a lot in the 80s - but nowadays no one eats Mario cereals or wears Mario shirts unless they happen to also have an allergy to sex.
It is amusing that someone compared Mario to Superman in responding to me, given the Nietzsche reference I made. But whatever - seperate from my observation about how there aren't really any characters that fulfill Livingstone's criteria of being a star that breaks out of the gaming world bubble - I also argued that even within the gaming world, Mario's relevance will begin to fade, since kids these days are growing up more obsessed with Halo, GTA, Battlefield 2, etc. Of course all of those 20-40 year olds at E3 lined up in droves for a glimpse of Super Wiiaro (apparently their development pitch went something like this: what if we copied a Sonic style game...and put it IN SPACE!! Also with lots of twirling.). They aren't the group I'm talking about.
I'm not comparing Mario to Tomb Raider. Livingstone was dumb there on every level. But it is equally dumb to think that "mario will be a giant 4evah!!!!!!$#". Platformers days are numbered, and whoring Mario n' crew out to make every subpar sports game in existence doesn't help.
And if Final Fantasy had had consistent characters...it would have ABSOLUTELY CRUSHED Mario in this kind of "popularity among gamers" category. Cloud almost does all by his lonesome, and he was only in one FF game (an overrated one, in my opinion).
tactics @ Aug 16th 2006 5:29PM
NOBODY from a video game is more popular than mario. NOBODY.
-"superfan" tactics.
samfish @ Aug 16th 2006 5:33PM
Yeah, but Lara looks good naked. *erects*
...
...Mario?..'eh...NOT so good naked. *barfs*
Jayne @ Aug 16th 2006 6:00PM
I really don't understand the point of this comparison. Mario did have his impact on pop culture. His movie was slightly less shitty, too.
"Laura is infinately easier on the eyes than Mr. Fat-Plumber-Man anyday... it would be hard to forget her , um, curves."
Yeah, sexual attraction to 3D models. All for that. Or is it anime characters now?
rockintom99 @ Aug 16th 2006 6:13PM
There is no way in hell Lara is more popular than Mario. Lara has boobs. That is the only reason she is special. Mario is one of the first games *many* gamers have started on. In *any* generation. Nes, Snes, N64, he was first (He eventually got there on gamecube).
Mario FTW.
32_footsteps @ Aug 16th 2006 6:44PM
"NOBODY from a video game is more popular than mario. NOBODY."
Millions of people writing FF7 Cloud/Sephiroth slash are emailing you angrily right now, tactics.
Now, I'm perfectly willing to hear arguments over whether certain characters are more popular than Mario. Amongst Nintendo's own characters, Link seems to be the most popular, though Samus, Pikachu, and Kirby might be up there too.
However, if we're going by sheer name recognition and fame, Mario clearly has everyone beat. There are those that might be liked more, but no video game character is more recognizeable than Mario.
This isn't popularity, or signifigance, or even game quality. It's merely recognition.
dotun.o @ Aug 16th 2006 6:45PM
I can assure you there are many, many people in the world who know Mario and have no clue who Lara Croft is. My parents and many adults I know who don't play games know you're talking about gaming when you say Mario; infact some adults still say, "The kids are playing their Mario (or Nintendo or Playstation)", but Lara who? Look beyond the young male gaming demographic and you'll see Lara ain't that big.