Peter Molyneux wants to change combat in games
by Dave (Blogsmith, old) 
{ Aug 22nd 2006 at 1:25PM }
Molyneux proposed that fighting in games should be more like the combat seen in films (using Kill Bill as an example). He said that game developers "do not treat a sword like a real thing; it's like a big squashy thing. And that's not what we want to present, or what Hollywood presents as combat." He said that he'd like to see more one-hit kills instead. Molyneux also pointed out that he'd like to see more one-button moves, saying that "around 80 percent of people use one button anyway." He said one button should do different things depending on the context.
According to 1UP, Molyneux was also critical of motion-sensing controls being used in combat (referring to, but not specifically mentioning the Wii): "I realized, when I looked at myself in the mirror, I actually looked really stupid. Even with nothing in my hand, I get tired very, very quickly. I think motion-sensitivity is very, very useful, but I think the obvious way of doing it -- unless you're dealing with a 15 to 20 minute experience at most of actually being hugely physical -- is not where the opportunity lies here."
[Update: Added video of Molyneux's presentation after the break.]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
.ed @ Aug 22nd 2006 1:35PM
as always, choice words from a man now working for Microsoft.
hohoho @ Aug 22nd 2006 1:38PM
Future wii games might have "fcw" all over its cover with how much sugar you'd burn playing the game.
Fat Camp Warning.
Alkaiser @ Aug 22nd 2006 1:38PM
Why did he talk about Kill Bill and not Bushido Blade 1 & 2, combat games which DO have 1 hit kills?
john @ Aug 22nd 2006 1:41PM
Here here! I loved Bushido Blade on the playstation. No health bar, you hit your enemy in the leg and they have to fight from one knee, you hit them in the arm and they fight one handed, hit them in the head, and they're done. I would really like to see that game (or something like it) on the Wii. You hear me Square?
00seven @ Aug 22nd 2006 1:42PM
So he's bashing the Wii's controller and praising the GameCube's? Interesting!
KVN @ Aug 22nd 2006 1:44PM
Was it Peter Molyneux that said don't underestimate nintendo and giving nintendo all this nice praise before his company was bought by microsoft i might be wrong but man money can make people do alot of things.
cringer8 @ Aug 22nd 2006 1:46PM
Yes, John, Bushido Blade remains my all-time favorite fighting game. So much strategy. I would LOVE to see all fighting games go that route.
WamBam @ Aug 22nd 2006 1:53PM
The challenge that developers are going to have with the Wii-mote is figuring out different ways to use it in their titles. I have this feeling that many games will essentially play the same, only the subject matter will be different. If the Wii-mote is truly revolutionary then it will constantly evolve. However, if it has it's limits as Molyneaux seems to be saying, then it's doomed to be just another light gun with severe restrictions on what people can do with it.
I'll still be one of the first to get the Wii because the price does allow me to purchase it just for Zelda and Smash Brothers alone. But like the the Gamecube, I'm not expecting any good third party titles.
Marty @ Aug 22nd 2006 1:54PM
This is all just backlash to Reggie saying to screw Wii60 and he would rather people just buy more Nintendo games and whatnot instead of a 360 too!!!
Jeff @ Aug 22nd 2006 1:54PM
"I would LOVE to see all fighting games go that route."
Yeah, because it's great when you only have one choice.
Look, people. Realistic fighting games have their place. But this argument is like saying all driving games have to be Gran Turismo or all flying games have to be MS Flight Simulator. Those games are fine if what you want is realism. But I don't play fighting games because I like to inflict pain on other people and am trying to life out some sort of real-life fantasy. I play fighting games to have fun.
Games like Bushido Blade have their place and I wouldn't disagree that it would be nice if there were more than just that one. But it would be a sad day for fighting games if they were all like that.
I also think Molyneux does not know fighting games. He doesn't seem to acknowledge that hand-to-hand fighting games even exist, for one thing, or that games like VF5 use real-world fighting styles and moves that are taken straight out of real life for the most part. And I doubt he's ever even heard the name "Bushido Blade" - he seems to think he's invented this idea himself.
Jeff @ Aug 22nd 2006 1:55PM
"trying to life out"
Er, try "live out".
LaughingTarget @ Aug 22nd 2006 1:56PM
Molyneux must be terribly out of shape if he gets tired swinging his arms around. The average person should be able to pull off at least 500 jumping jacks without much trouble if they're going to live a long life free of major health conditions like heart disease. Playing a Wii is far less intensive than a jumping jack.
As for looking ackward in front of the mirror - Mr. Molyneux has failed to realize that the combat in the movies is in no way what real combat is like. Real war is never graceful, enemies are never placed in perfect spots for wall jumps nor do real people have the ability to take on dozens of enemies at once.
What he is asking for is the reality of combat as shown by Hollywood. There is a reason why firearm instructors tell the class on the first day that they should forget everything they think they know about guns, this is because what we see in the movies will only get us hurt.
Real combat with real melee weapons is a minimalistic affair. Anyone fighting with a katana using spins, backflips, and long, arcing attacks will end up losing to the opposition that uses short, timed, and purpouseful attacks and will never over use any movements. This approach doesn't matter if you practice French fencing, Roman combat techniques, or you're a practicioner of the ways of the Samurai. Any well trained fencer would easily paste Darth Maul from Star Wars Episode 1 while the dork was in the middle of some spinning attack.
Molyneux seems to be confused as to what he really wants. He wants realistic combat, but without the realism. Good luck.
john @ Aug 22nd 2006 2:07PM
I love the drama inherent in Bushido Blade. In a normal fighting game you can watch the bars and predict who's going to win. In BB there was always a chance that the underdog could win on a hail mary. A great game for a group setting. I'm certainly not saying that all fighting games should be that way. I'd love to be able to play a game like that on a modern system. I don't have my psx anymore and I had a gamecube and later an xbox last time round. One game as good as Bushido Blade is all I really need. Anyone know of a game that comes close on any of todays systems?
james harley @ Aug 22nd 2006 2:08PM
i believe the most difficult thing to emulate in video combat, and the very thing we find most exciting in filmic combat, is quick, creative thinking and decision making. if we look at jackie chan, or jet lee, or even in kill bill, what is thrilling is the sensation that the events are ingenius and impromptu. the challenge facing video game combat, then, is giving the player myriad interesting choices (like lethal single strikes or a variety of possible environmental elements) that allow for spontaneous creativity - let the players participate in the creative thinking.
i admire mr. molyneux's philosophy, but suspect what he's talking about above really is just another button mashing solution - albeit with a single button. i wonder if it's possible to create a some sort of gestural, context-sensitive solution wherein each player's experience of the solution could be different. this could be as simple as: UP to leap to the chandalier, RIGHT to grab and smash bottle, BUTTON to use sword - no particular order, any combination thereof.
Jay @ Aug 22nd 2006 2:12PM
It depends on the game, I think. You can't say one way is better than the other -- that's like saying country music is inherently better than rap.
All I know if that if I was playing Zelda, and I killed Gannon in a single hit, I'd be annoyed. That's not what I expect out of a game ... I want a long drawn out battle against a superior foe :P
That being said, I loved the one hit kills in Bushido Blade (as was originally mentioned).
I think the statement, "It depends ..." pretty much sums up this argument.
Stoli @ Aug 22nd 2006 2:17PM
The problem with "one-hit kills" (imho) is that it could make games VERY frustrating for many people. One hit? Dead. You have a chance with a life meter.
Now, I would like to see games out there (people have mentioned Bushido Blade, though I've never played it) that use this kind of structure, but not all games.
And looking stupid using a Wii Remote? You're moving around on Dance Dance Revolution and tons of people play that. `^_^
CryHavoc @ Aug 22nd 2006 2:17PM
"I realized, when I looked at myself in the mirror, I actually looked really stupid. Even with nothing in my hand, I get tired very, very quickly. I think motion-sensitivity is very, very useful, but I think the obvious way of doing it -- unless you're dealing with a 15 to 20 minute experience at most of actually being hugely physical -- is not where the opportunity lies here."
A couple of points need to be made about this. First of all... you're a gamer who's worried about looking stupid? Yes, because sitting in front of a TV with a controller in your hand for 3+ hours really does pull in friends, not to mention what a huge hit with the ladies you can be.
Secondly, you really care that much about what you look like? Never, EVER have any fun in that case, because 9 times out of 10, you will not look too suave when having a good time. That's why endorphins are so great with physical activity -- they make you forget about the world and stop caring so much. It's a great stress release. Leave it to Microsoft to turn gaming into something that means "cool" rather than "fun". Pathetic.
Lastly, he chooses his words very, very, very, very carefully. I'm sure he has a lot of time to do that though, with the copious amounts of lounging around on the couch that undoubtedly takes place in the corporate offices of his workplace environment. Just a word of advice to Mr. Molyneux: Don't EVER play basketball. Don't ever rollerblade. Don't ever go mountain biking or buy a gym membership. Perhaps a large proportion of our population is too out of shape to use their arms for more than 5 minutes at a time... which is all the more reason why we NEED games like this.
That's insulting and asnine. "I don't like games that make me move my fat ***" is essentially what he's stating here. I'm sure he was the first one in line to predict that complete failure of the DDR series of games without ever stepping on a pad.
Mr. Molyneux, please get the hell out of the gaming industry. You are utterly clueless even about fighting games, as LaughingTarget pointed out. You stand for all that is "corporate gaming". Way to go.
rhork. @ Aug 22nd 2006 2:21PM
haha.
Was I the only one who pictured Peter Molyneux beating around an imaginary sword in front of a mirror until he grew tired?
Whatever way combat goes, I can say this much: I want combat in gaming to break away from today's monotony and to put it in the control of the gamer. Of course the wiimote is not the final answer, but it certainly looks to be the best step in the direction of us being able to have full control over our in-game actions.
Isn't that what we're striving for? More immersion and less simulation?
RayRay @ Aug 22nd 2006 2:22PM
Peter failed to mention that it's possible to adjust the sensitivity of the Wiimote to exagerate or to play with a flick of his wrist or somewhere in between.
32_footsteps @ Aug 22nd 2006 2:27PM
Actually, let's be fair. I don't see Molyneux hoping for realistic combat. He wants cinematic combat, which is completely different.
I think what Molyneux is looking for is the ability to perform completely unrealistic movements with ease, be able to take out dozens of mooks without much thought, and then have an incredibly acrobatic battle in which you're able to seamlessly put together absurd combos with simply the press of a single button.
Of course, what isn't mentioned is that such a game would be as dull as all hell, because you'd have no challenge from the hordes of mooks and you'd spend most of your time just figuring out when and how long to press the button. I suppose that's why Molyneux mostly sticks to God games.
I'm reminded of the game Time Killers, back in the early 90's. One thing you could do with about half the characters is just jam down on four of the five buttons (left arm, right arm, left leg, and right leg) and you'd do a move that could instantly decapitate your foe (and win you the match). This could work on any opponent in the game, even the final boss. Versus matches invariably came down to who could successfully pull the move off first. There's a reason there was never a Time Killers 2.
Also, to some extent, the "single button" theory is only going to be possible if you have a console that can literally read your mind. In any given moment in an action video game, there are dozens of actions I could take. How is the game supposed to know which one to do if I'm really only pressing one action button? I mean, even Kingdom Hearts gives me three (counting the jump) to mess around with, and I usually end up wishing there was a fourth in regular rotation.
I think Molyneux is just asking for things that in some ways aren't even possible, and even the ones that are turn out to be not all that much fun.
Crono @ Aug 22nd 2006 2:32PM
"Mr. Molyneux, please get the hell out of the gaming industry."
So you're going to eat him alive for commenting about motion-sensitivity? Have most gamers that praise the Wiimote even played with it? Molyneux didn't even mention the bloody remote. He merely made a comment. Yeesh. People need to stop with this unwavering devotion of Nintendo. It's ridiculous.
Wedge @ Aug 22nd 2006 2:38PM
Molyneux has never been one to let reality stand in the way of his dellusions...
Rootbeer @ Aug 22nd 2006 2:42PM
"such a game would be as dull as all hell, because you'd have no challenge from the hordes of mooks and you'd spend most of your time just figuring out when and how long to press the button."
Which is basically the gameplay experience that Dragon's Lair and its Laserdisc-based friends offered 20 years ago. Except in those cases, the limited game mechanics were not intentional but rather imposed by the constraints of LD technology.
Molyneux may have a good mind for designing some types of games, but I think he's way off the mark on this one.
CryHavoc @ Aug 22nd 2006 2:45PM
Crono:
I could care less what he thinks of Nintendo. However, he's obviously concerned with what "looks cool" when gaming, which includes a complete lack of exercise. He's whining about moving around for 20 minutes at a time. That's the umbrage I have with him. We need fewer lazy oafs in the gaming development industry who are happy with essentially the same controller that has existed since the SNES and more people who are willing to innovate. You're telling me that a one-button game sounds fun to you? Mashing one button all day for hours on end?
No thanks. I'll continue to play games that are complex enough to actually challenge my brain. The fact that he wants to simplify everything and to be a cool gamer is a staunch reminder of the type of grey matter he has upstairs.
.ed @ Aug 22nd 2006 2:46PM
to clear up any fears from his comments:
- i was at E3
- i was standing the whole time
- i had a 20 lb back pack on for hours beforehand
- i spent hours waiting in lines all day
- no food
- i spent hours playing with the wiimote
...
- not once did Wii's remote moving cause me to feel any form of discomfort or fatigue... through all that I had been through, i was never too tired to keep playing, and no, you don't get /more/ tired.
- peter's arms are as dense as lead and his shoulders are made of fig tree branches.
- before his paycheck came from microsoft, he was ALL ABOUT Wii... cough...
*crickets*
Andy S. @ Aug 22nd 2006 2:50PM
"around 80 percent of people use one button anyway."
An interesting statistic. Anyone have any idea where this came from? Is there an actual study to back this up, or is it just that all Microsoft employees are required to pull at least one unsubstantiated number out of of their ass during every interview?
cringer8 @ Aug 22nd 2006 3:03PM
I suppose I should elaborate on my previous statement, as some people took it the wrong way. When I said, "I would LOVE to see all fighting games go that route" (in reference to Bushido Blade) the key word was "route." I don't think *every* game should *be* Bushido Blade.
I would like more fighting games that had characters' limbs react to damage inflicted throughout the fight. That is to say, if one fighter lands multiple blows to his opponent's right leg, that leg should eventually break (or at least lose some strength). Perhaps the "health bar" could be done away with altogether and the game could keep track of various key body parts and decide when a "real life" person would have been defeated.
Just a thought.
ManTan @ Aug 22nd 2006 3:36PM
Anyone actually watch the video?
I don't think Molyneaux is talking about fighting games specifically, as in Soul Caliber or Street Fighter. He's more concerned with combat heavy games, perhaps like God War or Ninja Gaiden. He seems to be working with the way that the player interacts with the environment and uses it as part of combat. The parallel being drawn with Kill Bill is used to illustrate a combat scenario in which the environment is part of the fight, like when The Bride climbed up the supports and fought on the handrails in Kill Bill Volume One. I don't see anything particularly wrong with what he's saying. In fact, I think if you implement what he's saying, he might make an interesting game.
Of course, any supposed slight against the Wii is going to be taken as heresy by fanboys. Frankly, if we don't start being honest about games and blindly follow one company or one individual then games are going to suffer. Perhaps his criticism of motion sensor technology is nothing more then an opinion but I think he's earned the right to voice his concerns.
Frankly, I'm a gamer and I'm interesting in all types of games and hope that games evolve are continually innovative. If something like motion sensors help games evolves, I'm all for it. But I will never let my personal allegiences get in the way of having fun and seeking out games that progress the way we play. Fanboys aren't real gamers in that sense. They're corporate whores.
eric @ Aug 22nd 2006 5:17PM
28 and i walked away with the same thing from the above video. moleneux seems to have the emphasis of this speech on combat in context of the users surroundings, rather than forcing the user to remember that square square triangle will unleash the wrath of the gods. having button combos for attacks is unnecessary, and he's definately right in that sense. when your involved in a combat situation that requires some good old button mashing, how wants to have to remember stings of combos? all the buttons are different ways of doing the same thing, attack. i agree with the fact that one button would make the game more playable, and placing the weight of the attack on the context in which the player is in would just call for different strategy, in no way would this limit replayability or make the game dull. if anything, i'd be thinking, what if i took this enemy on at the porch instead of on the stiars..
a Master Ninja @ Aug 22nd 2006 5:31PM
I liked that video. I would play an action game like that.
cringer8 @ Aug 22nd 2006 5:35PM
@ CryHavoc (but not really)
I just want to clear something up. The phrase isn't "could care less," it's "couldn't care less." If you *could* care less, that would imply that you're caring and that there is room for less caring.
I hear/see a lot of people use it wrong, so I thought I'd finally say something. Sorry if you think I'm anal...but I am.
Alex @ Aug 22nd 2006 5:55PM
i really like what he's saying here, actually. molyneux's got a lot of good ideas. he's just slow to implement them.
obo @ Aug 22nd 2006 6:51PM
"molyneux's got a lot of good ideas. he's just slow to implement them."
Fortunately, he's at Microsoft now, where they're known for getting original ideas out the door expediantly.
GTgamer @ Aug 22nd 2006 7:00PM
"I realized, when I looked at myself in the mirror, I actually looked really stupid. Even with nothing in my hand, I get tired very, very quickly. I think motion-sensitivity is very, very useful, but I think the obvious way of doing it -- unless you're dealing with a 15 to 20 minute experience at most of actually being hugely physical -- is not where the opportunity lies here."
...this is a viewpoint I've had since the Rev controller was debuted. Novel? Yes, but not practical except in short doses/bites...and even then, you will look like an idiot while using such a scheme.
It would be pretty interesting to have some fighting games with realistic stakes. It would probably take the emotional level even higher when you're truly worried about one of your opponents getting a serious or fatal strike. I can imagine a context-sensitive control scheme that's centered on the game displaying the 4 possible buttons to perform actions. You then have a brief moment to pick an button/action with the game also giving you various levels of hints on what the AI is about to do (and which of the action choices is best/better). The obviousness of the hint can be tuned/adjusted for various difficulty levels. Basically, this just visually exposes what's going on in the code of most fighting games, but is practical in a game with a slightly slower fighting pace (for the sake of realism and to give players time to react to the visual cues). With hardcore difficulty, you might have zero indicators other than the animation...in other words, your typical fighting game.
Jim @ Aug 22nd 2006 8:00PM
He's dead on right. You simply can't stand 5 hours in front of the TV and "sword fight" your way through a game.
Although maybe I'd lose some weight...
/thinks.
nootau @ Aug 22nd 2006 8:17PM
This game reminds me of what the FREE engine (Shenmue I & II) was trying to do for combat,called QTEs (Quick Time Events). It was a bit slow, as to allow you to react to the sitiuation. The system above looks like an enhanced QTE system, where instead of a specific point where a button needs to be pressed, actions are always available to you. You are free to move around and press "A" (or whatever) at any time. It looks like a great evolutionary step, though the demos did not show if there were other ways to defeat people instead of the "pre-canned" ways. For instance, Did the player have to use the beer mug? could he have moved away from it and used a chair instead? and never touched the beer mug, yet still won the fight? etc.
This fighting that he discribes is not very much like bushido blade. Bushido blade was very complex in terms of controls. The controls were like regular fighting games, except in Bushido blade 2 they did away with blocks and you had to use an attack to block instead of holding back or a button. Also instead of an Energy bar, you could kill an opponent with a well placed blow.
Also, I too would also like to hear about this "A" button statistic. Nintendo also spouts a similar statistic out (which is why the Gamecube controller was designed with a big "A" button, and also why the Wii-mote has a single Big "A" button). But technically i guess he (they) could be right, lets take a common hard-core game like a FPS. Lets say the trigger button is "A". How many times do you really press another button other than "A" (trigger) not including movement of course (movement includes ducking, jumping, etc...those could be handled with guestures)? I think its safe to say, even a complex shooter like GRAW uses it at least 50% of the time (being VERY conservative). The only genre, ironically, that would have a more varied button selection would be a fighting game...
Psaakyrn @ Aug 22nd 2006 8:22PM
I know you don't have to use your whole body to use the remote, but..
We're talking about fighting games here. IF someone makes a game which translates moves literally (uppercuts, sidehooks, blocking, quick jabs done by moving the remote exactly as you would in real life), you WILL have to use your whole body, and this is what he's warning about.
In short, perfect simulation games is not situable for the general public. Take the good parts (easy, cheap violence), and omit the bad parts (tedious, repetitive exagrated motions).
Comradetrotskii @ Aug 22nd 2006 9:51PM
Would it be safe to assume that video is some sort of fable 2 demonstration then?
n8dogg @ Aug 22nd 2006 11:20PM
Simulating real boxing on the Wii would involve purchasing an extra controller.
Very "GBA-connector"ish in my book.
john @ Aug 22nd 2006 11:57PM
37. The Wii controller is made up of two motion tracking units: the 'candy bar' and the analaogue stick. I repeat... When using the nunchuck controller BOTH HANDS are tracked.
Lekko @ Aug 23rd 2006 12:47AM
The #1 reason the Wii will somewhat fail at motion sensing is one simple reason: it needs force feedback.
period.
Why? because if you simply cannot re-create a swordfight because there is nothing keeping the physical you from slashing straight through an opponent, but your virtual character will hit something with the sword. that discrepancy is one of the key problems with the wiimote. It does have vibration though, but.. you're not going to just stop when you feel vibration, that won't really work. Hence why only motions mapped to moves will be used really.
I'm just glad I'm not the guy that has to solve that issue right now though. Heh, that's pretty tricky. It's also why you havn't seen the wii have a real swordfighting game yet where the remote directly controls the sword.
Narhan @ Aug 23rd 2006 1:33AM
Jesus Christ, one guy says one thing about the Wii controller then you all cover him like a pack of wild dogs.
Molyneux is getting dough from Micro$oft this, Molyneux that. It's disgusting.
He obviously doesn't hate Nintendo because if you bothered to read the damn thing. He clearly quotes about the DS.
"What I've found really fascinating is not using it to scribble with, but using it in a very clever, innovational way."
Fanboys are so one-sided. You immidiately make judgements about someone you don't even know.
Xbox 360, Wii, and PS3 are all great systems with different games, except Wii is taking a different route. Innovation.
360 and PS3 are more of the same which isn't quite a bad thing. I liked PS2 and Xbox, they had good games and theres definetly potenial for more good games.
Kevin @ Aug 23rd 2006 5:34AM
Why do people still listen to this idiot? I guess if he think nobody wants to risk looking stupid with a controller it's just as well nobody put him in charge of creating the DDR franchise.
Let's face it, the guy's a washed out has-been. He had a few hits a long time ago and he's been living off the kudos ever since. Some people seem to think he's a visionary, but the important thing about being one of those is being able to get your ideas into the real world. He seems to be incapable of that, no matter who or what he surrounds himself with.
I think it's time he got another job and stopped annoying us with all these ideas (for which he then apologises a few years later, having been unable to bring them to fruition.)
Seriously, he needs to get a clue, and Joystiq, so do you for even mentioning him.
StSurin @ Aug 30th 2006 7:04PM
Mann!! Molyneux has opinions like everyone else. Let him live already!
Now let's talk games. The absolute best and most real fighting mechanics that i've ever seen in any game has to have come from The Mattix series. There are other good games out too like Rise to Honor(starring my boy Jet Li) and Crouching Tiger. But the most real attacks, counter moves and weapons stripping mechanics i've ever seen in a video game came out of 'Matrix: Path of Neo.' Hell if the trilogy wasn't all that- the game itself is awsome! Of course, they had the legendary Yen Woo Ping helping out with the martial arts choreography. But who better for the job? The fact is that not enough game developers take their time to really focus on the fight mechanics and choreography of a game. Take Mortal Kombat, for example(my god, what a disappointment). When an opponent receives an attack, the blocks are normally the same for all attacks above the waist. And when the opponent receives an attack below the waist, another standard block will apply. How real is that in combat? Not real at all. In the Matrix series, however, blocks varied according to the attack. The counter moves were fluid and the attacks resembled real martial arts. And for the record, Tekken sucks!! It only gets ratings because it's flashy, artsy and commercial. But the combat is not realistic at all, to say the least. In 'Rise to Honor', another project graced by Yen Woo Ping, Jet made you feel like you were controlling a real martial artist. Pardon me, Jet made you feel like THE martial artist. Even the AI in the game had skills. Crouching Tiger was kind of weak as a game. But still, the martial arts choreography was incredible(orchestrated by Mr.Ping, of course). It was like re-enacting the movie when the combat sequences in the game got started. Many of you developers could learn from working with the great Master Yen Woo Ping. But that's if you can afford him. heh, heh..