No future for desktop and laptop PCs?
According to Graham Brown-Martin, founder of UK-based Handheld Learning Ltd., the PC as we know it will be extinct by 2010. Its replacement? The portable consumer devices you use today, connected to server farms where all of your personal media can be accessed. At this week's Interactive Entertainment Festival in Edinburgh, Brown-Martin commented, "I've spent quite a lot of time talking to computer manufacturers and they are seeing more value in selling servers that connect to consumer electronic devices such as the Sony PSP and Nintendo DS. They see this as the food chain, rather than lots of desks with computers on them."
Oracle's Larry Ellison made a similar prediction a decade go when the Network Computer was thought to be the eventual successor to the PC. The thin client NC had no secondary storage and required constant network access to application and data servers. Brown-Martin believes this concept is the path to true mobility: "Mobility isn't just about little devices – it's about the user being mobile and having all their stuff in one location, on a hard-disk farm."
Do you agree? What impact would such a paradigm shift have on the gaming industry, and how comfortable would you feel if all of your game data and personal media were stored remotely?
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Rask @ Aug 24th 2006 3:04PM
This is a vision that I hope never comes to pass.
I hated this vision when I heard Larry Ellison say it 10 years ago and I still hate it today.
ultimatecinema @ Aug 24th 2006 3:04PM
I'm sorry, but that is an outrageous claim, im sure that within the next 4 years, PCs will be popular as ever. I can't see this happening even in the next 30 years.
Satt @ Aug 24th 2006 3:05PM
Joystiq, i have never disagreed with something more. For starters compare the amount of pcs people in america own to the amount of portable consoles. Portable consoles arent upgradable at this point of time, this may be a possibility not until portable consoles have longer battery life, and are easier to use.
Ian @ Aug 24th 2006 3:06PM
Oh yeah, think of how fun it would be to browse the web on the PSP all the time. I enjoy clunky, slow interfaces! What a joke, maybe in the future but by 2010? Not a chance.
LaughingTarget @ Aug 24th 2006 3:08PM
As long as there is a concern for identity theft, this vision will never come to pass. I'd prefer to keep all my important stuff on a PC that lacks online capabilities. For example, the rig I am writing my novel on doesn't have any kind of internet connectivity. I hooked it up once to activate Office and Windoes. It hasn't seen the net ever since. True, it is unlikely anyone will steal a manuscript from a complete unknown, but that is still the case.
Yes, this idea would be incredibly convenient, but until a foolproof security system is developed, it just won't be viable.
clo1_2000 @ Aug 24th 2006 3:10PM
I can't believe everyone skipped over the obvious barrier to this; do you really want anyone else to know about your donkey pr0n collection?
tactics @ Aug 24th 2006 3:10PM
i'm sure this is how corporate america would LIKE the future to turn out... for anti-piracy reasons of course.
sorry big brother, but you're not taking away my personal servers and my desktop. they're my life's blood. seriously.
-"superfan" tactics.
Spike @ Aug 24th 2006 3:11PM
No way..
I am a hardcore PC Gamer. I simply cannot stand console controllers, and I own two consoles. My xbox is a media center and I do enjoy a lot of the homebrew/emulators on the system.
I also program and do graphic design, and I dont like how I'm seeing stupid kids who use consoles and don't learn anything. Atleast if you give a kid a PC he can learn how to program or do similar activities that wont make him mind mush.
So no, lets not stupidize this country more. We need more things that make us think.
Christopher7xii @ Aug 24th 2006 3:12PM
Definitely not by 2010. I mean, just trying to play games off of GameTap sucks, loading the games in memory and what-not and the D/L. I really don't want to imagine how long of a boot it'd take to fire up Team Fortress 2 or Neverwinter Nights 2 over the network. 1000rpm HDDs sell because that extra access time makes a world of difference. Sure, storing media (avis and mp3s) and personal files (docs, txts, jpgs, gifs) might work due to small file size and streaming, but we're talking about games that take up 5gb on HDDs now for quick access to zones as they load on the go. I can't imagine that being fun while playing WoW, to hit a zoneline and wait about 15 minutes for the new zone to download/load.
hoob @ Aug 24th 2006 3:12PM
Every year, some firm comes out and says PC gaming will be dead by so and so year. It's getting tiring. It's not gonna die. There is no scientific proof of it. And it won't come to pass any time soon. These companies should just quit wasting their efforts and their breath.
nalgae @ Aug 24th 2006 3:12PM
They seem to forget that the average home user does not want a server farm and multiple devices that connect to it. Setting up a single computer is enough trouble. In addition, people don't want tiny screens. This is why the UMPC failed. At work, people are always impressed by my double monitor setup (I'm a programmer, the impressed people are usually other random office workers). They go, "Wow! I can work on multiple excel sheets at the same time with that!"
Usablity is more important than mobility. And furthermore, what about people who want to work on roadtrips and plane rides? Are offices expected to pay 70 a month per person so they can get Verizon Wireless? Local data will never go away, and neither will PERSONAL computers.
Elanz @ Aug 24th 2006 3:12PM
Can I play WOW on it? If no, then I'm not interested.
Robotic House Plant @ Aug 24th 2006 3:13PM
This is like the paperless office they said would happen too. I'm sorry, but computers and laptops are not going away anytime soon, and certainly not by 2010. We all know the Apple IIc with external LCD screen will make a come back by then anyway (remember the movie?)
I've used PDAs. I've used UMPCs. I've used Gameboys and the PSP. They're all great for games, and calendaring too. But if I had to perform work on those systems or use them for my primary source of Internet access, I'd go crazy. It works, but it's not a great experience (hello? no keyboard).
Besides, I'm not giving up my wicked big LCD display.
Marty @ Aug 24th 2006 3:13PM
Yeah, I can't see PC's being gone in 4 years either.... that claim is a bit on the outrageous side.
Furthermore, who the hell wants all their personal data store on a corporate server somewhere, where just about anyone could get their hands on it if they wanted... not I.
PodMonkeys @ Aug 24th 2006 3:18PM
Hopefully bandwidth has increased but a whole heck-uva-buttload by 2010 if this is going to happen, but even so, desktops, and laptops aren't going to go away. Hopefully bandwidth does increase that much anyway.
james f. @ Aug 24th 2006 3:21PM
I can see this becoming more true for developing nations than for the western world. If they started from the ground up in this format it would really catch on in some places.
socrates @ Aug 24th 2006 3:23PM
You people are all reactionary, and astoundingly short-sighted.
I have had this vision for awhile now. Not completely shared network servers (your porn and Bittorrented files won't be affected), but a home server that contains and stores all software and multimedia (TV shows, movies, etc.)
In the house there will be installed both permanent screens/speakers (speakers all over the house, screens where normal TV sets would go), and you would also have multiple portable screens. All would have control over what media you are outputting to where - music can be set to play throughout the whole house, or whever you go...games played from wherever.
This is both inevitable and necessary. The notion that you have to have your monitor on top of your computer where the processing is happening - the, "one output per one imput per one computer model" - is already fairly antiquated. And it is nonsensical that there are so many different systems we currently have for our multimedia, when all should be controlled through one master system.
To be opposed to that kind of advanced home networking for privacy reasons is the same as people who would refuse to ever use the internet for fear that all their personal information will be stolen. It is retarded to think that safeguards won't be in place.
Will this be ready that soon? Probably not on a widespread scale. But sooner than you all think. How could anyone into technology even doubt this?
grable @ Aug 24th 2006 3:23PM
No way in hell those corporate bastards will get to fondle my data!!
Evan @ Aug 24th 2006 3:29PM
Years ago, we had Commodore, Apple, and Atari computers in our home. Computers like the Amiga were far superior than the IBM-compatible PCs of the time for home entertainment. So, how did the more expensive, less user friendly, business-oriented IBM-compatible PC invade our homes? Because people wanted the same software and environment as they use at work. Even now, Apple makes a great platform for casual home use, yet most people prefer to buy more cumbersome Windows PCs for their home because its the same as they use at work.
As long as we use PCs at work, people will want identical PCs at home, whether they really need it or not.
Sub @ Aug 24th 2006 3:30PM
Man, that's funny. Thanks Joystiq, I needed a good laugh today.
Super Duper MArio @ Aug 24th 2006 3:35PM
ppl are always going to have a laptop or desktop at home, but yea
thin clients own hardcore when it comes to I.T. and bizz related computing
thaxs to Citrix
BlackYoshi @ Aug 24th 2006 3:35PM
Even now, Apple makes a great platform for casual home use, yet most people prefer to buy more cumbersome Windows PCs for their home because its the same as they use at work.
No, they buy them because PCs are much cheaper and customizable than Apples and has more software support than Apple computers.
Anyways, this is a ridiculous notion. People aren't going to want all their files stored on some community server farm that anyone can access. Especially by 2010. 4 years.
Pal @ Aug 24th 2006 3:35PM
I can't see this happening in ten years, but it sounds pretty good to me. I play my PSP more than ever and I never play games on my PC or laptop (even though I have a desktop with a 7800GT and a laptop with a 7800GTX -- I use them for Maya/3ds Max -- you know, the 3D programs that makes games and movies).
AoE @ Aug 24th 2006 3:44PM
"The portable consumer devices you use today, connected to server farms where all of your personal media can be accessed."
Hahahaha, no. Everyone who has ever made this prediction seems to forget one key sticking point. Who on earth is going to trust a corporation with the care and feeding their personal data?
Just look what happened with AOL. Search records are relatively benign compared to the data most of us store on our local hardware... I'll buy that one day soon we won't have these massive boxes sitting around; but there will ALWAYS be local storage.
LordMinogue @ Aug 24th 2006 3:46PM
Wow, everyone depending on server farms is prehaps the dumbest idea ever.
Play any Splinter Cell game and you will know how devastating one information warfare attack could be.
Server farms...the soft targets of tomorrow.
crono141 @ Aug 24th 2006 3:48PM
Hows the consumer HDD market these days?
Yeah, thats what I thought. This isn't happening.
Socrates, what you are talking about is a very viable and great situation, that I do see coming to pass very soon.
It is, however, not the same as everyone having a small handheld or screen with a keyboard at home, and that is the ONLY way people have access to data, and that data is located in some server in some giant server warehouse somewhere. Thats what these peeps are talking about.
And that will NEVER happen.
nalgae @ Aug 24th 2006 3:52PM
>Socrates
That's a nice thought, but that isn't going to happen by 2010.
For the central server idea, if it only handles data like music files, fine. But streaming movie files? Maybe if everyone has optic fiber cables. Even then, you're still wired down
If we're talking about streaming gaming, either these devices will still have to have their own processing power, or we will need a central server with enough power to process more than one game at a time (unless you have exactly one person in a family who games), in addition to having to send that screen info to the portable device. Either way, a wired PC is still more convenient.
In addition, have you ever had an electronic device break down? If not, good for you. On the other hand, if one central machine that controlled all media and had all the files broke down, what then? In the business world, this is solved by redudancy and backup. To be introducing that to the home user will take quite a while. Even then, what about one person households? Two person households? When does it make sense to switch to this system instead of just having a PC?
2100, maybe. 2010, not so much.
rhork [this guy isn't realistic] @ Aug 24th 2006 3:52PM
haha.
perhaps eventually, but certainly not by 2010. Don't get ahead of yourself mr. brown-martin. We'll be lucky if the world has a realistic 'all-in-one' handheld device by 2010. As far as storing everything remotely- It's going to take a helluva lot more than four years for people to gain trust in such a 'service'.
maybe he meant 2020? It's a pity this guy gets any press, but it is interesting to throw around ideas like this.
Zertoss @ Aug 24th 2006 3:54PM
Two things would have to happen:
1) We're going to need a LOT more bandwidth. 3 gigabit connections might begin to cover it. Lag issues with online games would need to be addressed to, since data would need to be sent from your interface all the way to your server, then off to the host's server, then to the clients' servers and on to their interfaces. It would be like gaming on a sattelite connection with current technology.
2) We, the gamers, will need interfaces with large screens. I'm talking HUEG LIKE XBOX. We like big screens. We'll also need our perfect controller: keyboard + mouse, and plenty of USB (or similar, whatever the future holds) ports.
Thinking this kind of jump could happen in about 3 years is nothing short of a delusional fantasy. We'll still be on the same computers with the same bandwidth, with many people still stuck on dial-up connections.
Keep dreaming, Mr. Brown-Martin.
Derbeste @ Aug 24th 2006 3:54PM
There are so many issues with this idea that will need to be solved before you can make enough people WANT this to every make it economically viable to impliment.....in the next 4 years. (/rolls eyes)
1) Privacy issues. As people have already stated, Some people don't want to even input their CC number into a server....let alone their private entertainment, family records, Photos, medical records, social security info, etc. There would have to be a MASSIVE campaign to convince people this is safe, private, and secure. Windows....isn't doing anything to help.
2) You would need a constant connection. So when the server is down.....your LIFE is down. We get mad enough when Verizon drops a PHONE call. Can you imagine people's frustration when ALL of their entertainment becomes subject to this?
Secondly, a system like this would obvoiusly require a monthly fee. So if you don't pay....what happens to your data? CAN YOU REALLY FEEL YOU OWN YOUR OWN DATA IN THIS TYPE OF SYSTEM?
Also...why pay monthly to access your data when local storage is cheap, secure, and reliable, and pretty damn portable as it is already?
3) I'm assuming private companies would be providing this server farm service? What if you don't like your service and want to go to a competitor? How would you transfer your data? Do you really think the company is going to GIVE your data to a competitor without making it tuff for you? Hell...we had to make a LAW so you could take your cell phone number to another phone carrier!
4) We are just now going to DVD rom games and away from CDs. Floppies are still around for some people. And you want us to give up the WHOLE PC in FOUR years? People don't adopt unproven technology that fast.
5) Would the government need only ONE warrant to search an entire farm? Would they need a warrant at all? I KNOW they need a warrant to check my local HD.
6) Data liability. What companies are ready for the law suites that will ensue if they lose a farm and back ups fail?
7) As people have said, people use at home what they are familiar with at work. Until the business environment adopts this, their employees probably won't.
Wow....what a really long way for me to say this may happen eventually (VERY sloooooooowly).
But in 4 years? It's a good thing I'm not drinking soda...or my nose would be BURNING right now.
shouryuuken @ Aug 24th 2006 4:00PM
first of all yeah right.. i dont even know why i read this because the headline made me laugh.
and @ 8... haha, because kids sitting around playing games on a console all day dull their mind more than sitting around playing games on a pc. riiiight. how about kids and you go read a book.. stupidize isnt even a word genius. that wasnt even the point of this conversation.
LordMinogue @ Aug 24th 2006 4:07PM
2010 = End of Desktops?
Well, if you trust Popular Science any more then this guy 2010 will be the year of the Carbon Microprocessor (A diamond). The clock speed of a desktop could top 90ghz without substantial external cooling (more then a heat sink). Also, optical formats of wavelenghts shorter then blue will be on the rise, and flash memory has octoupled in memory/dollar in the past year.
Sure, the "terminal" system Socraties discussed will be on the rise, it has existed for some time. But never will I ever abandon my hard disks and memory cards to a buisness.
Tiago @ Aug 24th 2006 4:13PM
Unless linking up to these servers is free of any kind of payment I don't see it happening EVER lol
I also don't think huge farms of data to be a good idea. From about.. hmm... every freaking sense!
socrates @ Aug 24th 2006 4:27PM
Crono141 -
Well no, I was ignoring the stupider parts of the post, aka the "screens will get tinier like palm pilots" and "storage will be entirely online" parts of that, which aren't really the crucial moves that need to be made, anyways.
Although it is interesting that we have gone so far as to store gigabytes of some our most personal bits of information - emails - on google/yahoo/etc.'s servers. I'm sure that *some* would be fine with completely online storage. And not by 2010, no, but our home networking bandwidth is making some pretty fast leaps.
Saying "Nooooway! We'll be playing Half-life 14 on our PCs forever dude....that Tom Clancy game proves that things ain't changing much!" is pretty stupid, though.
josh @ Aug 24th 2006 4:38PM
"I've spent quite a lot of time talking to computer manufacturers and they are seeing more value in selling servers that connect to consumer electronic devices"
unfortunately for those manufacturers, what they feel doesn't matter, the marketplace will define what products get sold. as long as people want PCs and laptops, they will get sold.
the idea of replacing a laptop with a thin client is ridiculous, also. the entire point of a laptop is that it allows you to work/play/whatever untethered from your desk. on a plane, on the beach, etc... places where you probably can't connect to a wireless network.
that said, i'm sure that traditional desktops will continue to shrink in popularity, to be partially replaced by home theater pcs, laptops, etc. but it will be a long time before the desktop is totally gone. longer for laptops.
epobirs @ Aug 24th 2006 4:44PM
Live data feeds have their uses and will grow considerably. What, after all, is the World Wide Web? But much as I like the Web, I like having a recent encyclopedia and other references on hand because the conenction isn't always there. At the very least I want a household server that knows my custome spelling dictionary entries rather than having it stored remotely and accessed over a broadband connection that is subject to unexpected failures. The phone company likes to call them 'acts of nature' as if it were due to a constant stream of devastating earthquakes. Apparently, Nature drive a backhoe.
I expect a lot of people reading this will be doing so on a PC connected to a Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS) because the centralized server of electricty is subject to unexpected failure. If I'm going to have UPS I'll also continue to have my data stored locally. I'll have much of it duplicated for accessiblity via conencted systems anywhere in the world but I wouldn't rely on that as my sole option.
I want my stuff to work regardless of how things are going elsewhere. This can be pretty critical if you're expected to fix stuff in a place that's broken. It's bad enough that so many products no longer include a printed manual. It's just another step for them to not include even a CD, just a small slip of paper with a URL on it.
#5
LaughingTarget, you are not alone. A lot of writers take measure to reduce distractions. Many rent an office so that they are away from househould distractions and truly feel they're at work. Jerry Pournelle has a room in his house devoid of almost all furniture except a desk for a PC with no internet connection. This is where he gets most of his fiction work done. (He and Larry Niven are currently working on a sequel to Inferno.) He call it his Monk's Cell.
Chris @ Aug 24th 2006 4:50PM
Server farms are a brilliant idea. What do you think Google's new business model is? Microsoft has dominated the market for years, but if everything goes server farm, then M$ is in deep trouble. Google is going to pwn Microsoft very soon.
Think about it. Why spend 1-2k on a computer when you can just get a much cheaper device that will allow you to access the internetS?
Pikachelsea @ Aug 24th 2006 5:15PM
The end of desktops and laptops? Pfft. That'll never happen, for one simple reason: all the WoW nerds and single yuppies with too much expendable income use their vastly overpowered computers with 1.21 jiggowatts of RAM, 2000 TB HDD, etc to measure their e-Penis. Take away the nerd's ability to elongate his e-Penis simply by dumping more buckets of money into his computer's video card and the eternal PC p*ssing contests would have to end, and we can't possibly have that!
Avatar @ Aug 24th 2006 5:18PM
Yeah, he has a complete wrong angle of things.
Of course that on the go computing will rise incredibly starting at the end of 2007 but, there will always a central box, what i can even dare predict is that for the mainstream, maybe the 70% of the population there will be a central computing box always conected that will control the house remotely, provide security to the devices inside the house and will serve as the main and more secure storage, think in a blackbox for a house and you got the idea. that box will also allow the remote computing processing.
From there, all kind s of devices will be conected and used inside the house and outside of it. alowing for any member of the family to send data to their house or choosing to upload it online.
And since this is the future we are talking about, i can easily predict that this central box will be imperative because it will also manage all the comunications becuase tv/radio/vidphone/etc will pass throught it given that everything should be wireless and data streamed by then.
But not by 2010....heh.
i can see it spread by 2020 and no less than 2015..
i mean, look at the telecom board, they tried to push Digital by 2005 and failed, and it was finally moved to 2010, wich means that by 2010 everything must be digital in a global scope. 2005 was just too ambitious and unlogical in terms of infrastructural development.
P.S: to the guy who said that 3gigs of bandwith would be needed, the line is not the only thing important. i say that 100mb/1gb will be the norm and will be MORE than enough.
Avatar @ Aug 24th 2006 5:22PM
woops, i didn´t read socrates idea, it based on the same thoughts that i have but , at least i expanded it more...
:P
Mr. Fap-Fap @ Aug 24th 2006 5:34PM
So long as there is porn on the internet, this will never, ever happen.
Can you imagine jerking off with one hand while navigating the web on your DS or PSP with the other?
IMPOSSIBLE!!!
Kevma @ Aug 24th 2006 5:39PM
Yea yea yea
And Intel said the x86 was going away...
Unidentified creature @ Aug 24th 2006 6:45PM
Today: *Terrorist bomb explodes destroying sevral servers. The affected data is lost. Backups were on computers in other locations. Everyone except mister terrorist is happy.*
Hypothetical future: *Terrorist bomb explodes in a server farm. two thirds of America's processing power and data are lost forever.
Other than the obvious financial and privacy issues, this would be another HUGE problem that I would see. It's the classic putting all your eggs in one basket.
GTgamer @ Aug 24th 2006 7:00PM
Remote computing, thin clients? This argument always has a million holes in it. People are impatient enough as it is...computing will never be fast enough. Plus, there are some people that want to do *real* and varied work with their machines.
In the U.S., our broadband penetration/quality still sucks and it's expensive too...and it probably will still be that way in 2010. No way the infrastructure or culture is anywhere close to being remote-computing friendly.
Entrusting most of your personal data to a corporation?...don't think so. They can't even be trusted to safeguard *really* important stuff, let alone most of my data. Someone earlier praised Google but just because they say "do no evil" doesn't make it true or a binding agreement in perpetuity. Even merely using online farms as data/application backup is still pretty sketchy.
Renting software/storage? Companies will want/try to do it...no thanks. Then what happens to all of your data when you no longer want to pay up?
That segues into another reason most regular people probably wouldn't hand over their files/data...piracy. I'm sure there are plenty of people guilty of piracy or copyright infringement to some degree and would be too scared of getting busted over their bastardized bad quality rips of the latest pop music turds or they'll want to run their not-quite-legit copy of Microsoft Word, etc.
Tom @ Aug 24th 2006 7:43PM
"It is retarded to think that safeguards won't be in place." ~ socrates
Well then color me retarded, because I am extremely skeptical that this would be as secure as having your data on your home pc, which you have physical access to and can therefore decide what data is accessible and what isn't.
gyruss @ Aug 24th 2006 8:03PM
Well, maybe, eventually... but you've got to appreciate that people have been saying similar things since he late 80's. Mark Weiser at Xerox Parc springs to mind.
ALH @ Aug 24th 2006 8:14PM
what an excellent idea, I mean, when im sitting at my desk on a multiple hour project in painter 9 what im really thinking is ' I could be doing this on a three inch screen on the bus somewhere!'
This is great if all you use your PC for is the internet and listening to music, but come off it, I cant see people writing essays on a PSP.
dsub @ Aug 24th 2006 8:45PM
yea...right.
and on August 29th, 1997 Skynet was supposed to wipe out 3 billion of the earth's population and we should all be fighting in a war against the machines right now.
Oh wait...
Izeas GT @ Aug 24th 2006 9:43PM
I think there's something to the concept (or Socrates's refinement), but it definitely needs maybe another decade. I also can see it happening in Japan or Korea before the US. As for "putting all your eggs in one basket" - who says the Big Data Bank has to be centralized? Think of the way the brain works. We can do multiple layers of redundancy, sure. Any given piece of data can be in four or five physical locations at once.
Ray Kurzweil thinks there's a trend toward decentralization, if you've read "The Singularity is Near." Electrical power might go this way, too - complementing the big fusion reactors, there could be roofs and roads covered with cheap solar panels. The less centralized things are, the better security can be. Now, what this might mean is that PCs won't be entirely personal - a few gigs (or ters) on your drive might be reserved for an area you cannot at all access, which stores other people's files. Distributed storage, if you will. Hmm...wonder if Google's working on it?
Oh, wait. This is Google. Of course they are. At any given time, they're working on two dozen Cool Projects thought up by people way more creative than me. :)
samfish @ Aug 24th 2006 9:48PM
This'll never happen like this. Not on a large enough scale, at least. At best, we'll have a big brother-esque society with the citizens and the Proles, who won't trust big corporations with their data.
I sure as hell wouldn't. What happens when our increasingly pro-corporate, anti-citizen society's judicial system rules that these companies storing our data has the right to paw through it and decide what is and isn't legal?
It WILL happen.
Now, I CAN see home servers becoming the norm.
With a little bit of effort and money, you can take a computer, and network that thing across your home so as to access all your files across multiple computers and even set it up as a DVR...helps best if you have a Mac Mini or something with a remote, though.
Maybe even private or secure wi-fi networks would become a necessity where you can link your future wireless iPod with your WiFi home server or something.
But the idea of storing all our data with private companies that we can no control over...I sure as hell hope our society never becomes so herd-minded and ignorant...