Has Red Steel moved to freestyle swordfighting?

Will I get -1 for not making any comment at all?

Yep

Oh man, i really really hope that this is the case. That was the big thing i was looking forward to in red steel. If they pull this off, then *sigh*, it looks like i will be spending even more on the wii launch.

Apparently 9 out of 10 articles on joystiq have to be taken with "a grain of salt" now a days.

If it's true, consider me a Wii convert.

Let's face it, we all WANT freestyle sword controls - if not in this game, then most definitely in a Star Wars game where you wield a lightsaber.

And to those few who will undoubtedly question whether it's feasible to have freestyle sword controls in a game, think about this... If it isn't, then what the hell is the point of the Wii remote in the first place? A replacement for a D-pad, that makes the game feel more immersive because you're moving your hand upwards, instead of just tapping up with your thumb?

Ick. Freestyle or bust.

Ehh. It might help when getting appeal from non-gamers. It's either going to be really cool, or flatout horrible. And on top of that, it's a launch game. I still have low expectations for this game.. and plus:

Lightsaber > Swords

Isn't this what he games was supposed to be from the beginning? A freestyle sword game sounds like the shizznit! I swing my wii-remote and my sword on-screen does exactly what it should. What is wrong with that?

I don't think freestyle sword fighting is feasible with the Wii. One of the biggest problems is that if you hit an object onscreen and your sword stops, your hand in real life will keep going.

Patrick: The stars represent all posts from your IP..

#8: So what do you do when you run into a wall in Mario 64? You're still holding the same direction on the analogue stick, right? You mean you don't pull back in the other direction once you realise you can't go any further in that direction?

Vibration + sound from speaker + graphical representation onscreen = obvious collision = move your sword in another direction, dumbass.

"Vibration + sound from speaker + graphical representation onscreen = obvious collision = move your sword in another direction, dumbass."

You have a point, of course (though I don't see why you had to be so rude about it), but swinging a sword and watching your movements tracked accurately onto the small screen may (note: I've not tried it) may make such collisions feel awkward.

What Nintendo need to do is create some sort of gravity defying implant in the Wiimote, which stops it suddenly when it hits an obstacle. I wonder if we'll ever see that sort of thing (more realistically, I guess you could pull it off with tiny thrusters which push the remote in the necessary direction).

Geez, this really is a tangent. Tiny thrusters? It's early, OK.

Something tells me they're going to mess it up anyways. If they don't, it won't be released at launch.

@Zozart,

Quit living in the past, Zozart! Gravity-defying controllers already exist (albeit in limited form):

http://www.msl.ri.cmu.edu/projects/haptic/

What has always perplexed me from the Red Steel demos I've seen is those scenes when time slows down, you paste the targets on the guys you want to shoot, then time resumes and you shoot them all....

And every time I see that, I can't believe they would have that kind of thing in the game. How jarring would that be, to stop time just to have aiming! I hope that that dynamic gets changed along with swordplay.

Well if it is true, it's just how it should have been in the first place. Other wise why bother with a motion sensing controller if you only use it like a D-Pad?

If they have done it and done it right then Red Steel has just gone back on my list of future Wii titles that I will have to play.

Socrates, the slow time is one of the most entertaining parts of the fps portion, and not jarring at all. It may seem to be that way in the vids, but when you play the game it's not awkward at all. It's just fun.


Don't knock it 'til you try it, and all that jazz.

to #8 Sub
I still don't see why that would be a problem, since you would want to position yourself for the next strike anyway, resulting in the character moving to the strike position. If you just mindlessly don't move to the next position, your character ingame would be shown still reeling from the block.

It should have been that style of control from the beginning. If this is true, let's hope the graphics don't have to go from bad to "freestyle crayon drawing" to accommodate.

@socrates:

The Matrix-style "bullet time" sequences are actually key to the game. You can choose to take everyone out with head shots or disarm them with hand shots, which affects how other NPC's treat you afterwards. That sort of accuracy would be almost impossible in real time. That said, I think it's optional (i.e., you have to push a button to even enter that mode), so if you don't like it, just don't use it.

If Nintendo had listened to the gaming community, we wouldn't have the Wii at all.

to #20 covert.c.
True, sometimes the gaming community is not the best place for ideas, especially when you're trying to expand your audience to more than just the conventional gaming community.

Ummmmm, wasn't this confirmed a few days ago? I can't remember where I read it now (probably on slashdot), but a Ubisoft employee said that they had changed the sword fighting portions to mimic the player's movements, for the most part. There will still be some triggered sequences that respond to a particular pattern to perform movees that wouldn't be possible for a normal human (after all, this is still a video game).

They also said that they're having a problem perfecting it just at the moment, as the response on screen is a trifle slower than it was when they were using canned attacks. Full freestyle control is apparently heavily processor intensive (as if that wasn't obvious), but they hope to have that problem cleared up shortly.

Here's some cutting edge game theory from an expert:

1)Even if you can swing a sword freely, have you really had the proper fencing lessons to beat an NPC that isn't a total nincompoop? The enemies would have to be slow or crippled or really fat not to beat some guy playing swords with a Wiimote. And I don't care what Jedi sites you peruse daily, you couldn't beat Jar Jar without some real skills on the saber, and those only result from some little force-producing, slavegirl-inseminating creatures. Or something. You gotta have some advantage in life-like sword fights in games, like super speed, or a helpful, albeit impatient, fairy.
2) The whole no-blood thing is absolutely retarded. Now, I don't want to hack up anyone with a sword or watch it in a game, so I understand. But if Ubisoft doesn't want that either, then they shouldn't have swordfights. It looks like the NPC is made of high endurance polymer. And if he IS, then all the untrained swordswinging you could ever gleam out of the Wiimote 1:1 controls wouldn't be that fun. I opt for a pinata, when you wack them, they yield prizes.

What we do know is the developers are working extremely hard to make this game amazing. They are not only working on visuals, but the gameplay & controls. You gotta understand how great it is to hear how they are focussing so much on gameplay and control. This is what I find exciting.

Anyhow, hopefully the answer comes September 14th guys... play some games until then. I'm playing Kingdom Hearts 1 right now (great game - poor camera angles though!).

People also have to realize that this is a first-gen game on an incredibly open-ended piece of hardware using a control scheme that has never been attempted before (and by which may cause the biggest upset if it doesn't work as well as people have hopped up in their minds).

I really hope Red Steel gets it right, but take a look at things like the 3D camera. Mario 64 didn't get it perfect, but games slowly evolved. I'm sure second- and third-gen games for the Wii will learn from whatever mistakes Red Steel might make. And we need to cut Ubisoft a bit of slack here; what they're trying to is not only incredibly hard, but they're the first ones taking a stab at it.

If they do manage to get the 1:1 feel down, that'll be an accomplishment to write home about, make no mistake. I hope they do it, and I'm glad they're trying this route and sticking their neck out a little. If it's only 70% the right feel, and if the movements are a bit on the slow side, I'm sure the game will still be perfectly enjoyable. Mario 64 was still amazing despite an occasionally frustrating camera, after all.

to #23 rubbersword
I've no idea what sort of expert you are, but games aren't your expertise.

First rebuttal: Then make the AI a "total nincompoop". In a truely expert setting, 99.99% of us will never beat chess against a computer, 99.99% of us will be zerg-rushed to death a minute after starting any starcraft scenario involving zergs, 99.99% of us would be head-shotted to death withing a minute after getting a crobar in HL2.

Second rebuttal: The most popular game series with swordfights doesn't have blood either. Of cause, Star Wars uses a "scientific" technicality to explain the lack of blood, but the point is, you don't need blood for a good swordfight.

Is that not old news?? A few weeks ago, on their redsteel blog they confirmed that they're now working on this free-style sword-fighting along with the special preset moves they had before. I wondered why there was no hubbub... I HIGHLY doubt that it will be soley free-style as this goes what they said in thier blog, that wanted to keep the special pre-set moves to empower players and let them pull off amazing attacks otherwise inpossible.

My opinion is that Twilight Princess and Redsteel will share the same system, highly logical. It is also my opinion that Nintendo were working on this control scheme BEFORE E3 but its implentation wasn't fully working at the time. However this paragraph is just speculation.

God, so many typos... inpossible... lol. Sorry, from the top.

28. Is that not old news?? A few weeks ago, on their Redsteel Blog they confirmed that they're now working on this free-style sword-fighting along with the original special preset moves. I wondered why there was no hubbub... I HIGHLY doubt that it will be completely free-style as this goes against what they said in their blog, that they wanted to keep the special pre-set moves to empower players and let them pull off amazing attacks otherwise impossible.

My opinion is that Twilight Princess and Redsteel will share the same system, which is highly logical. It is also my opinion that Nintendo were working on this control scheme BEFORE E3 but its implentation wasn't fully working at the time. However this paragraph is just speculation.

Nope, not gonna happen. The Wii cant handle the physics behind it. When you hit someone with your sword free-style, it needs to model the impact on the character .. ie. hit armour and the sword bounces, hit flesh and the sword goes through, etc. Then there's how you hit the emeny, stab, slice, etc. and how hard you hit them. The way the characters respond cant be scripted or preanimated ..they have to be calculated in realtime using physics and mechanical models. Wii is too wimpy to handle that.

This is why most of the Wii games will be gesture based inputs (eg. slash motion initiates slash attack) when it comes to interacting directly with another onscreen object using the wiimote (aside from the most rudimentary tasks).

Should I buy a Wii? I need someone to sell me on this. I am seriously thinking about it. I already have a 360, which I think is awesome. With a library of primarily kid-based games and an unproven controls, is the Wii going to be worth it? I consider myself a notch below a HARD-CORE gamer, but I still play games a lot. I don't like kid games though. I've been perfectly satisfied with the content on the 360. Do I need to look further to Wii for games like this? Sword fighting with no "resistive" feedback is like waving a magic wand around your living room. So that leaves me to wonder. Is Wii just a gay name, or will the games be gay as well.

ROFL! Sorry, this is off-topic and I shouldn't feed the trolls, but that's just too funny.

http://www.xboxic.com/news/1503

Yeah, Uchiha Shotito, The 360 sold out in Japan! OMG! No, wait, it sold out in one store, a store that probably hasn't placed a stock re-order in half a year. Hahahaha. Nice try though.

@rubbersword:

There are two 'masters' in the game who teach you
how to properly use the gun and the sword. Though they
probably wouldn't help you much at all in the real world, I'm sure they will aid you greatly in exploiting programmed or other flaws in
the gamesenemies/bosses.

There is blood. Just not gratuitous amounts. So you may have blood spilling and quickly and disappearing or something like that.

@Optimus Prime:

Konami speaking to IGN about Wii physics:

Konami: Yes, the structure is very similar to GameCube, but you already knew that. The development was not that difficult, as the Wii system has built in physics simulation. That helped the process.

http://wii.ign.com/articles/708/708155p1.html

Granted the objects in Elebits all seem to float and drop at the same rate, but hopefully it'll be like the Tony Hawk guys showing these bad nasty graphics then improving them greatly as time went on.

Optimus Prime, were you just talking out of your ass?

...because that's what it smelled like. These things you describe are not impossible on the Wii. It all depends on how accurate you want your experience to be, and what else is going on at the same time.

to #30 Optimus Prime
That is an assumption.
1) Note that all sword battles shown have been 1-on-1. This is probably to help cope with the said logics needed. Calculating physics for 1 single object of a pre-defined shape and size can easily be hardcoded. Perhaps in the future more efficient algorithms can be discovered so more complex sword battled can be had, but at the current point of time, I think it is safe to assume that a non-scripted sword battle as you described, is not unfeasable.

2) The other manner of dealing with the problem would be to remove the physics requirement entirely, as I would expect Zelda to do, else it would be too vastly different rfom the GC version. This would be entirely feasible, since the only extra calculations would be to animate the character depending on how you control the remote.

Hope they do it right. Freestyle swordplay is terribly difficult to do. In "real" swordplay (e.g. Kendo), the user's stance and position matter a lot. The Wiimote, which tracks only hand movement, is forced to approximate footwork with the Nunchuk.

As for collision detection, yes, you could approximate it with vibrations and onscreen cues, but those become less effective as the speed of the game increases. With a real collision, your hand is forced to stop. With a virtual collision, you have to (sub)consciously respond to some sort of cue, effectively slowing things down. Ever seen a fencing match? It'd be hard to get things going that fast with a virtual sword.

Then there's the user comfort part. Sword swinging is a lot of work. As I understand it, part of the Wii design strategy is to make the UI such that, if you want, you could stand up, swing like crazy, and really get into the game, but at the same time, do the same moves with subtle wrist movements while leaning back on the couch when you're tired. With sword fighting, the more "couch-friendly" you make the controls, the less "realistic" they're going to be.

The more i hear about the Wii the less impressed i am. Im with Optimius, Wii is already struggling to produce xbox graphics...and it has to manage more complex physics as well? Good luck. If Wii flops it may be the last console Nintendo ever produces.

did anyone see the new Red Steel movies at IGN from the GC? The guy playing the game looked like he was using a freestyle scheme when he fought the yakuza on the roof.
Also notice that the graphics have gotten better and the lighting is awesome.

My only concern is the "barrier" effect when trying to turn. I'm hoping that UBI follows Retro's example and allows for an expert mode of control removing this barrier.

to #37 OOOOPs
If you're looking for complex physical simulation, look at Super Mario Galaxy. I don't recall any other 3D game with multiple sources of gravity, so at the current point in time, the Wii in fact demonstrates BETTER physics capabilities than 360 or PS3.

And please note that the Wii is NOT struggling with graphics. Yes, it appears to use a lower standard of graphics than 360 or PS3, but it also means that it uses LESS processing power for said graphics, thus potentially leaving more processing power for more important stuff, like physics or AI.

36. It doesn't have to be realistic to be fun. Is playing guitar hero anything like playing an actual guitar? Is playing DDR at all like actually dancing?

The control schemes are just meant to be more immersive and fun for the player. None of these game try and deliver a realistic experience. I don't think a game should strive to be so realistic. If we were going for that much realism then why not just sign up for Kendo lessons.

Hey Optimus Prime: http://wii.ign.com/articles/707/707417p1.html
"The next title that we played was Wii Sports: Baseball. This title is made in the easiest fashion for a Wii game, Home Run Derby. Players will simply step up to the plate and swing for the rafters. Once again, no buttons are used for the game making it simple to get into the rhythm of swinging a bat. The part about the controls that surprised us the most was that your virtual counterpart does a good job replicating the exact way you are holding the bat, showing the detail in capturing your movements."

Find more previews of that game from other sites, they will tell you the same (the way you hold the remote is tracked in realtime as to what's on the screen).

Second, "." take your kid argument flamebait elsewhere. It's old and tired, and you obviously are either too young to even BUY M rated titles, or are still in the stage of your life where you need to look cool to your friends, hence your choice in videogames. Newsflash: the rating on the title doesn't indicate the level of enjoyment from playing the said title!

Lastly, almost everything that has been shown thus far was built on Gamecube kits, since the initial tools are the same. People forget that and have decided the Wii is the "sux0rz" with graphics. Wait until polish is added and/or second gen games built from SCRATCH for the Wii. The thing is powerful enough for decent visuals and physics and such, enough with the bullshit.

From what Nintendo has shown so far; guns and pointer like widgets will be freestyle. Everything else will be crappy gesture input. Pretty lame if you ask me.

Eg. for the trauma center game. You make slashing motions towards predefined locations on the patient's body. When the game registers the motion, the preanimated sequnce of the cut follows (gesture based input). If this were really freestyle, you should be able to take the wiimote and hack up the patient every which way you like. The physics and mechanical models would take care of the animations and consequences. This is not a trivial task and I doubt Wii is capable of doing it.

I feel bad for the guys at Ubisoft actually. Can you imagine the kind of pressure they are under to deliver with this game. Red Steel is a huge gamble. It could potentially pay off bigtime or be ridiculed for years to come. The amount of spotlights placed on this game is staggering. Most people seem to be pinning the Wii's success on this one game. If they fail, they not only let down themselves and their company, they could potentially stain the reputation of the Wii. That's alot of pressure to place on one little Wii game that isn't even made by Nintendo.

The fact that they are fundamentally retooling gameplay should send up more than a few red flags with people. Expect this game to be not much more than a game with some shooting and some sword fighting, and you might come away pleased.

And please just give up on defending the Wii's graphical and computational power. It is on par with XBox 1, (probably a little more powerful).

The XBox 360/PS3 can outrun and outgun the Wii in every way. Just live with that. Embrace it, and believe that the Wii will offer a unique gaming experience that the others cannot.

41. that's how it worked in the DS version and that game was really fun. Also really hard. It took a great deal of patience and skill.

Look at my post 40 for my response on why Trauma Center does not have to be completely free formed to be fun.

Trauma Center was most likely designed like this originally ON THE DS to refine the gameplay. I'm not a surgeon. I don't know where my spleen is. Therefore I need a dotted line to help me out in that respect.

Awesome, now I can swing my sword of magic rubber and when I hit my enemy purple stars and coins will jump out and dance along the screen.

I'd prefer Gears of War's Chainsaw thankyouverymuch. Or, a M rated swordfight game.

did you have to mention the PS3 boomerang? I cry every time I think about the fact that we're not getting it.

10. #8: So what do you do when you run into a wall in Mario 64? You're still holding the same direction on the analogue stick, right? You mean you don't pull back in the other direction once you realise you can't go any further in that direction?

Vibration + sound from speaker + graphical representation onscreen = obvious collision = move your sword in another direction, dumbass.

Posted at 1:42AM on Aug 29th 2006 by V1L3 2 stars

This moron has 2 stars?? He is referring to the fact that, if it tracks the movement one for one, and your sword gets blocked, your arm in real life still follows through, it doesn't stop when it should. So then the game would register the Wii-mote in a new position when it shouldn't, since the Wii-mote kept going but your in-game sword didn't. That is the fatal flaw of that kind of control is that in cannot simulate resistance from hitting another sword/bone.

true story, trauma center is an amazing game. anyone who has played it for more than an hour knows how engrossing it can be. You CAN still hack up your patient anywhere you want, or fuck them up with surgical laser...but you won't have a patient for too much longer if you go this route. If there weren't any guides, you'd be yelling at atlus for not making the gameplay structured enough so that you know what you're doing...if you don't like it, don't buy it. It's cool, we understand; we're not like you

Thomas, mhz doesn't mean shit anymore. Take Intel's new Core 2 chip as an example. A 2.4ghz Core 2 chip clocked at 2.4 beats the living crap out of my overclocked 4.0ghz Pentium D chip. Even if the Wii is at 1ghz, using the PPC 750 CL (which the devkits were using, underclocked at 730mhz from its default of 1ghz) it's still almost twice as powerful as the XBox. Not to mention the advantages that the Wii CPU has over the 360's Xenon and Cell (out of order execution, which immensely helps AI and physics) and a fantastic dynamic branch predicition (again, AI and physics love this). Even the "almighty" Cell chip has the archaic in-order execution that makes programmers want to rip their hair out. Perhaps you people should read about these things before you comment.

Granted, there is still way more headroom and more raw power in both the 360 and PS3 than the Wii, but they are not leagues apart as many would think. A stripped-down Power5 archictecture (which is exactly what the 3 PPE cores in the Xenon and 1 PPE core in the PS3 are) perform like ass clock-for-clock in comparison to a real G5 or the enhanced G3 in the Wii, and the G3 is more suited for gaming as well. There are MORE IMPORTANT THINGS HAN GRAPHICS! And the PS3's/X360's CPUs aren't very good at processing them. There are plenty of articles on ArsTechnica about the pitfalls of the PPE core inside the Xenon/Cell, if you'd like to read more. For instance, this little nugget of an excerpt that has been posted before:

http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/xbox360-2.ars/7

"Like the Playstation 3's Cell processor, the Xbox 360's Xenon processor represents a fundamentally different approach to performance than that which characterized the previous generation of consoles—and the previous generation of PCs for that matter. The Xbox 360 will rely on multithreading and procedural synthesis to make visual environments that are more immersive than anything that's possible on the present generation of either game consoles or PCs. Still, with all that pixel-pushing power at its disposal, there are a few probable flies in the Xbox 360 ointment.

Rumors and some game developer comments (on the record and off the record) have Xenon's performance on branch-intensive game control, AI, and physics code as ranging from mediocre to downright bad. Xenon will be a streaming media monster, but the parts of the game engine that have to do with making the game fun to play (and not just pretty to look at) are probably going to suffer. Even if the PPE's branch prediction is significantly better than I think it is, the relatively meager 1MB L2 cache that the game control, AI, and physics code will have to share with procedural synthesis and other graphics code will ensure that programmers have a hard time getting good performance out of non-graphics parts of the game.

Furthermore, the Xenon may be capable of running six threads at once, but the three types of branch-intensive code listed above are not as amenable to high levels of thread-level parallelization as graphics code. On the other hand, these types of code do benefit greatly from out-of-order execution, which Xenon lacks completely, a decent amount of execution core width, which Xenon also lacks; branch prediction hardware, which Xenon is probably short on; and large caches, which Xenon is definitely short on. The end result is a recipe for a console that provides developers with a wealth of graphics resources but that asks them to do more with less on the non-graphical side of gaming.

At any rate, Playstation 3 fanboys shouldn't get all flush over the idea that the Xenon will struggle on non-graphics code. However bad off Xenon will be in that department, the PS3's Cell will probably be worse. The Cell has only one PPE to the Xenon's three, which means that developers will have to cram all their game control, AI, and physics code into at most two threads that are sharing a very narrow execution core with no instruction window. (Don't bother suggesting that the PS3 can use its SPEs for branch-intensive code, because the SPEs lack branch prediction entirely.) Furthermore, the PS3's L2 is only 512K, which is half the size of the Xenon's L2. So the PS3 doesn't get much help with branches in the cache department. In short, the PS3 may fare a bit worse than the Xenon on non-graphics code, but on the upside it will probably fare a bit better on graphics code because of the seven SPEs."

Lamen's Terms Conclusion: Wii = less power, can do more with said power, much easier. Most of the devs are shoveling out their launch games using Gamecube based kits and Gamecube-based engines, and games built from scratch for the Wii will look nicer (see: Mario Galaxy).

Stripped down PPE CPU's in 360/PS3 = more raw power, much much harder to utilize it, weak branch prediction and no OOOE to help with anything not related to graphics. They are both weak in that regard, and their graphics have already been outdated by higher range PCs.

@ 47. BlackYoshi - Have you ever considered that just MAYBE the devs have realised this also? Have you thought that MAYBE there are ways around this? Such as, say, your sword gets blocked during a downward slash, your hand will end up low, facing downward. On screen, your character is blocked midswing, but immediately after the contact, withdraws the blade and repositions it to match your ending position, quickly, and ready for a second attack, or pary, or block....maybe?