http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/ Joystiq Comments for Rational gamers choose subsidized hardware, all else equal [update 2] http://www.joystiq.com/media/feedlogo.gif http://www.joystiq.com en-us Copyright 2008 Weblogs, Inc. The contents of this feed are available for non-commercial use only. Blogsmith http://www.blogsmith.com/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/Sep 14th 2006 7:45PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/Sep 14th 2006 7:47PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/
a flame war is coming]]>Sep 14th 2006 7:48PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/
I am personally very very excited for the Wii. I will be there on launch day. Its a great innovation and It opens new possibilities for all sorts of games. But I think nintendo is just being cautious, so just incase it doesn't sell well they arn't screwed over.]]>Sep 14th 2006 7:50PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/Sep 14th 2006 7:50PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/

It means nothing in this case. At the best it means the company is looking into its corporate survival, and is trying to differentiate themselves by offering something the competition can't, albeit at a lesser cost.

That's the lamest thing I've seen joystiq posting, and something that really takes away from your credibility.]]>Sep 14th 2006 7:51PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/Sep 14th 2006 7:52PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/Sep 14th 2006 7:52PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/Ask a Sony stock holder if he is happy with what you call "small loss".]]>Sep 14th 2006 7:52PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/Sep 14th 2006 7:52PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/
I guess it's too bad that all else isn't equal, then, since all the games I want are exclusively appearing on the Wii, and Nintendo is giving me free wi-fi out the box.

You make it sound like if Microsoft/Sony were to offer us a theoretical game console that, say, cost them $1 million each to make but set the MSRP at a "mere" $10,000 dollars, then clearly the RATIONAL thing to do is to buy that console because hey, what a steal!! Think of how much money they're losing! It has no games I want but who cares!! Etc.

If Sony and Microsoft want to dig their own grave into the red, that's their problem, not mine. I'm buying a console based on the games it has to offer, not based on how much money the manufacturer is dumping into the console. I'm using it for gaming, not salvaging high-performance parts.]]>Sep 14th 2006 7:53PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/
Exactly my point. If a company is unwilling to subsidize, it means a subsidy is a matter of life and death for them. This is a play to decrease risk. If the Wii were a sure-fire money maker, Nintendo would be willing to take a loss. Because they are not taking a loss, we know that the company views the Wii as risky. ]]>Sep 14th 2006 7:54PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/
Maybe it's more about the fact that the hardware in the Xbox 360 and the PS3 is so goddamn expensive that to sell it without making a loss would further push the price bracket out of people's reach - rather than the company's expectations for sales.

If Nintendo can sell a console at a reasonable price and *still* make profit then I'll happily jump on that bandwagon, and why shouldn't they do it? They're a business. The argument about console manufacturers giving us 'free' hardware when it's subsidised is ridiculous - I'm not denying that having fantastic hardware like that in the 360 and PS3 made cheaper is a fantastic option as a gamer, but to chastise a company like Nintendo for innovating in a different direction and being able to profit is a rather stupid argument.

I own a 360 - but I think I'll be picking up a Wii once I've played it myself. Status based on price (to me at least) is irrelevant, what I think this 'generation' is going to be about is gaming experience rather than how many polygons you can shift around - surely us gamers are more grown up than that now?

-Leemo]]>Sep 14th 2006 7:54PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/
1. All else is never equal. "All else equal" would mean equal hardware, an equal game selection, etc. In that case, you'd be talking about different prices for the exact same experience. That never happens. Rational people always measure value - that is, cost vs. reward.

2. A subsidy is not the same as "free" hardware. If I'm paying $600, that's not "free". Sure, I may get a $400 *discount* off what the console really costs, but if I have to pay for it, it's not free.

It's an obvious but important point because a company could put out a console that costs $5,000 to make and sell it for $4,999 and they're technically subsidizing it. But $4,999 is hardly "free" and no rational gamer would choose it over systems costing more than 90% less. It would only be rational to choose such a system if the following two conditions are met:

a) You actually *have* $5,000 to spend (it is never rational to spend money that you cannot afford to spend),

*and*

b) Again, all else was equal - in other words, same hardware, same games, but the competition actually costs $5,000 to the consumer. In that case, the rational choice would be to spend $1 less.

It's false logic to try to make an argument that subsidized consoles are always the rational choice. They are the rational choice *given certain conditions*, and all of those conditions put together would be a practical impossibility. What it would always boil down to is simply the exact same consoles sold for different prices - that's the only way buying the subsidized system would always be the rational choice.
]]>Sep 14th 2006 7:54PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/
Who said joystiq was just a newsite.

I agree, I think it was a stupid move by nintendo to put outdated hardware in the Wii. That way it could do both.]]>Sep 14th 2006 7:54PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/

Why don't you post that as well, that the ultimate goal of these corporations is our money and that if they didn't have competition they would not have as much reasons to lose money on hardware to regain it with software sales?]]>Sep 14th 2006 7:56PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/Sep 14th 2006 7:56PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/Even if we SHOULD buy the PS3 to get the best computing power, most of us don't want to spend $600 for it. It comes down to actual dollars. Besides, computing power isn't everything. Also, since Nintendo is only a videogame company, they can't afford to take a loss. Sony and Microsoft have other areas of business that can prop up the gaming division for the short-term.

And to counter your only other point, I'd rather 'invest' my gaming dollars in a company that's making money because I don't have to worry about them going under or cutting support of their console.]]>Sep 14th 2006 7:58PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/if you buy for example a PS3 for 600$ you will have to buy games for it someday or not?? O_o

i think it's rather stupid to argue about something like that. It sounds like someone "forcing" you to buy it just because it is worth some $ more.
if i'm not interested in it, i won't buy it, even if they give me it for 300$ less..]]>Sep 14th 2006 7:58PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/Sep 14th 2006 7:58PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/
The fact that I'd be charged "only" $600 for a PS3 when the individual parts of the system total more than that doesn't mean that by logic the PS3 is the system I should buy. Particularly if there are no games for it that interest me and I don't appreciate Sony's continued arrogance. That they're being so nice and cutting us all deals on their hardware means nothing to me if they don't have what I want in the first place.]]>Sep 14th 2006 7:58PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/
W...what? I do not understand this sentence. When I bought my 360 it cost me $400, whether Microsoft made or lost on the deal. ]]>Sep 14th 2006 8:00PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/Sep 14th 2006 8:01PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/Sep 14th 2006 8:02PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/
Part of that involves CARING ABOUT THE DEVELOPERS and appreciating their decisions. Nintendo is a developer on top of being a hardware manufacturer.

You know, people we consider to be fine artists today such as Van Gogh and Rembrandt used to paint for a living. Their paintings didn't cost millions upon completion, many times they lived from painting to painting. Shocking I know.]]>Sep 14th 2006 8:03PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/
You got for $400 something worth $600. You paid below the producer's marginal cost, meaning the producer gave you value worth $200 for $0. That's free stuff.
]]>Sep 14th 2006 8:03PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/Sep 14th 2006 8:03PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/Sep 14th 2006 8:03PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/Sep 14th 2006 8:04PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/
Do you realize what you just said? You just said it was irrational to buy a console based on gameplay experience and fun factor and that a gamer should focus on who has the largest built-in subsidy...do you REALLY believe that the economics of the company behind a console should influence purchasing decisions of gamers? That's just plain stupid...

Nintendo's making a profit. Good for them! It's good to know I'm not buying a system for a company that's potentially going to go bankrupt...]]>Sep 14th 2006 8:05PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/
Consumers buy consoles to play games. Their #1 criteria for choosing a system is how much fun they think they will have playing the games. The production cost of the hardware can only tangentially inform a consumer's assessment of that.

Saying that pricing the system to sell for a profit shows a lack of faith in the system is just utterly ridiculous. Businesses set prices to maximize profits.

]]>Sep 14th 2006 8:06PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/Sep 14th 2006 8:06PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/Anyways on topic. Motion sensing tech is and always will be a novelty to ME. Beyond all the crap you would have to buy to make it a viable in home mulit-player machine I just can't see that kind of plunge even before buying games to take in 3x of one thing 4x of another so friends, family and "Mii" can enjoy this. I'm not going to do the math on what all the controller purchasing would add up to but I'd imagine somewhere close to 200 bones or better.

I'm guessing N doesn't take into account that a lot of people can't afford large sets to cram 4 people in side by side shoulder to shoulder all trying to wiggle, shake, swing and move around to control the on screen action. Should be quite an entertaining sight on a 27" (4:3 aspect) or less. Anyone for a Wiimote black eye?]]>Sep 14th 2006 8:06PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/
I see that as weaker confidence in the product though, since they have to drop the price to encourage more buyers. VW doesn't add a premium on their cars because they're not confident in their product.

This whole post is so confusing.]]>Sep 14th 2006 8:08PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/


I think you're taking my comment a little from the wrong point of view. What I meant is that the current business practice of selling hardware at a loss clearly isn't a good strategy, and the fact that Sony and MS are going to lose millions, or maybe billions of dollars(MS again and Sony maybe for the first time in this industry) is a clear sign of that.


Nintendo knows this, and as such they decided to change their business practice and market a product just in the same way they marketed the DS. A experience you can't get anywhere, albeit at a lesser price.

It isn't as if they're evil and want to sell us crap on purpose. For all I've seen the Wii will be worth it and I won't have to buy an expensive HDTV to enjoy it.

I mean, even the GC wasn't sold at a loss in its early days. It's a business practice ]]>Sep 14th 2006 8:08PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/
On topic, this logic is a bit contridictory. If "The ultimate profitability of a game manufacturer is no concern of ours, as gamers" then what does it matter weather or not the cost of the system is subsidized? As purely gamers, with no forward thinking, it would make the most sense to buy the best gaming machine. "Best" is of course a matter of opinion, and does not inherently imply "most 'free' hardware".

That being said, as people who play games and want to continue to play games, we SHOULD think about a consoles ultimate profitability. If any company X tends to satisfy our gaming desires better than other companies, it is rational to devote more money to company X to a) obtain more satisfaction, and b) enable the company to create more satisfaction in the future.

Lastly, in the specific case of Nintendo, thier strategy is different because it has to be. Microsoft doesn't make money off thier game devisions (at least, not yet), but they make up for it with thier other market offers (OS, Software etc). Sony, similarly, can absorb the subsidized costs of thier gaming division with thier massive Home Electronics division. Nintendo only has a gaming devision. Everything they do is directly connected to gaming. Therefore, as a business, they chose to make sure everything they do results in a profit. Surely they have quite a bit of money to work with (Nintendo brought in more then all of Sony last year), but they don't have a backup plan. If they were to subsidize the Wii, and it failed terribly, then the would have spent money to lose money, which no business wants to do. You may call that a lack of confidence, but many people (especially economics analysts) call that good business sense.]]>Sep 14th 2006 8:08PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/Sep 14th 2006 8:09PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/
Tell that to everyone who bought a dreamcast.]]>Sep 14th 2006 8:10PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/Sep 14th 2006 8:10PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/Sep 14th 2006 8:10PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/Sep 14th 2006 8:12PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/the greatest value.

I could build a solid gold Atari 2600 at a cost of
$5000, sell it to you for $4000, and you'd still be better off buying a 360/PS3/Wii for above-cost.



A moron looks for the best deal.
A smart consumer looks for the best value for his needs.
]]>Sep 14th 2006 8:12PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/
Honestly, the fact that one company may be breaking even, turning a profit or suffering a loss in the sale of their product(s) has never, ever been a factor in my purchase of said product. When I contemplate investments in anything, I tend to foolishly consider factors like "is this item going to be useful to me" or "can I afford to buy it" or "do I actually want it". The fact that a particular item may be bleeding a company dry by its very existence plays absolutely no part in my purchase decision; moreover, if history is any teacher, consoles that are not profitable in and of themselves sometimes tend to negatively affect a company's bottom line (see Sega et al). If you posed the question "would you rather buy a product from a financially stable company that will be around to support it, or would you rather buy one from a risk-taking enterprise that may a year down the road either go through a severe restructuring or decide that supporting said product isn't financially wise"- I would venture to guess most people would choose the former.

Ultimately, I'm not sure what this all means- Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo are all multi-billion dollar companies who tend to operate in the black, and the notion of any of them closing up shop anytime soon due to financial malfeasance is kinda funny. But so was the notion of the shuttering/restructuring of Enron, WorldCom, Tyco, and a vast number of sacred cows that have been slaughetered and rendered over the past decade. It's not a question of how much you believe in your product- you had better f'n believe in it if you've invested hundreds of millions (if not billions) in r & d, design, manufacturing, and advertising- the question is what point is there in taking a small loss when you can still undercut the comptetition by hundreds of dollars and still turn a profit? To hell with confidence- that's just good business, and to company exec good business keeps your shareholders happy and helps you keep your job. ]]>Sep 14th 2006 8:13PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/]]>Sep 14th 2006 8:15PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/Sep 14th 2006 8:15PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/
This is horrendously foolish and indicative of the hardware-centric nature that's ruining this industry. Vlad, I don't know if you've ever had a soft spot in your heart for Shining Force, or, hell, nearly KING OF FIGHTERS, but whether a company does good business can spell the end of games that you care about. This short sighted power-grab is nonsensical unless the only thing you care about is stroking yourself to theoretical polygon counts. I no longer have doubts that the moronic fanboyism that pollutes the comments section of this site has seeped into the blogging itself.]]>Sep 14th 2006 8:15PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/Sep 14th 2006 8:17PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/
Wait, are you the MBA dude? Ah.

Yikes.]]>Sep 14th 2006 8:19PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/
SO if you are mad that nintendo is going to make a profit off out of 250 dollars and feel like 400 to 600 for high def gaming is a ok then your obviously trying to do two things. Prove your loyalty for another console or try and whine so that nintendo drops the prices...LOL please It's not going to work man...LOL

Plus too if you feel it's over price then go buy a game cube and then go and pick up zelda. If you really think that these games can be done on the xbox or game cube then go get your start up money and make us console players a crysis killer because you obviously know more about the hidden power of both systems to warrent that comment.

To bobby.. Yeah I want the specs too but they are going to make me feel like I should or shouldn't buy it. I'm more curious to know what it can really do and if they even added any cool tech that could be passed on the vid cards and workstations. As for gamers using specs to buy a system... not a good idea... Shouldn't you be hyped about games? Well I guess thats why nintendo is doing what they are doing because specs couldn't even get the old atari a sell before the crash... and the Neogeo blew every thing away it seemed but no one wanted to Pay money for the console...LOL a quarter to a dollar was all that system would get...LOL Now where are the arcades? I mean good luck with rushing out to the arcade because some ungodly game has been released and you just have to see and play it.

If you look at things... Sega dieing off as an hardware maker should have been a wake up call. Arcades dieing should have been a wake up call.
Sony and MS making consoles that basicly uses HD and movie play back to hang on to value should have been a wake up call. 3D bleed the industry... in a bad way... Lots of 2d producers went away simply because Comapnies would not let them make a profit off of what founded video games 2d game play. Atol of creative people where lost. This industry need creative people more than tech though. Any company can prodive tech.

Getting mad at a company that may have you pay for a new experience... Thats priceless...LOL Them making a profit off of it... What you though this industry was an art gallery or some thing
...LOL Pay to play... Go buy a checker board or some thing dang..
Well I'm off my soap box for now... ]]>Sep 14th 2006 8:20PMhttp://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/
I bet you Joystiq staffers walk into a grocery store and buy everything that's on a '2 for 1' offer even if you don't want it because you're 'rational consumers' right ?]]>Sep 14th 2006 8:20PM