Layered disc to stop next-gen format war?
by Kyle Orland 
{ Sep 21st 2006 at 9:30AM }
Console makers and movie studios both have a lot riding on the success of the competing DVD formats, but a new patent recently filed by Warner Bros. engineers may help calm the battle. The patent details the creation of a disc that holds HD-DVD, Blu-ray and standard DVD data on the same disc by using three different layers of information. The discs would cost more to produce, but the cost might be worth it if movie consumers could be sure that the disc will work on whatever HD player they may end up with.Could the technology lead to layered game discs that work in all three next-gen systems? Unlikely, since getting all the various publishers and console makers to agree on packaging and technical details would likely be impossible. Also, The Wii and Xbox 360 versions of a game would have to share room on the standard DVD layer, which might be a tight squeeze for some larger games. Still, it's nice to dream...
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Wreckhart @ Sep 21st 2006 9:38AM
Finally some good news for everyone on both sides of this format war.
Spilt_Milk @ Sep 21st 2006 9:40AM
Screw that. I will wait until there is a player that can play all formats and it's cost is around $120. I think the rest of the planet is with me on this.
Chris @ Sep 21st 2006 9:44AM
Wii doesn' use DVD's.
They are the same size, but a proprietary format. No idea how much space they have.
Delive @ Sep 21st 2006 3:53PM
I'm glad to see that "Warned" Bros is looking into something like this. But I wonder what Warner Bros has to say about this?
Martin @ Sep 21st 2006 9:48AM
Stupid thing, it will cripple both the HDDVD and bluray to only have one layer.
ill trooper @ Sep 21st 2006 9:51AM
It's like a big data sandwich! yum
Khidr @ Sep 21st 2006 9:52AM
Warned bros.?
I think the whole idea of a non-recordable medium is a futile one, people overwhelmingly want flexibility in how they use content, and are willing to trade some fidelity for that convenience. That being said, this is a fantastic olive branch... how much data could one disc theoretically hold? i.e. is each layer a full specced disc for that format?
Lee @ Sep 21st 2006 9:53AM
Since when does Warner Brothers have engineers?
Wild Homes @ Sep 21st 2006 9:57AM
I can't believe that Sony or Toshiba would agree to this. the point of agreeing to fight a format war is that neither company is willing to give an inch, they each want ALL the licensing royalties from this optical format change. so they'd suddenly agree to get behind, or even simply authorise, a format truce that will help the competition? Toshiba wants to KILL Blu-Ray, and Sony wants to KILL HD-DVD. neither wants to say, "oh hey it would be ok if you just bought the competition's product instead of ours. it's all on the same disc..."
32_Footsteps @ Sep 21st 2006 10:01AM
Even if the Wii and the 360 did both use DVD formatting, in theory they should be able to make a disc that could hold both types of info on different layers. We live in a world where my cell phone can tell me the temperature outside; picking either layer A or layer B should be well within our technologies' capabilities.
Of course, all three companies have financial incentive to keep their hardware intentionally stupid n that regard, so hoping for this to catch on in gaming is probably a wild dream at best.
KilgoreTrout XL @ Sep 21st 2006 10:04AM
This is coming from a guy who should have paid more attention in his Intellectual Property Class (Sue me. I was a 3L):
Do the owners of the IP for those formats (Blu-ray and HDDVD) have a possible claim against a manufacturer who combines them? It seems that part of the risk they have taken with "going to war" with these formats is in light of the huge reward they know they'll get if they're successful- a veritable monopoly on the market in this area (or huge $$ through licensing, etc...)
This new media would eliminate the benefit
of winning this format war, wouldn't it?
Zero @ Sep 21st 2006 10:05AM
Are they going to be able to cram all three layers into discs as thin as current ones, or will these result in thicker discs that will require different drives to play them anyway?
I thought players that read both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray were being developed already; that seems like the most reasonable solution to me.
Tesla @ Sep 21st 2006 10:08AM
Great....WB thinks the solution to the format war would make us pay for both types of next gen optical format disk packed into one.
So instead of paying ~$30 for either format is not the answer. Paying (estimate) ~$45 to get both on one disc is better?!
LunarDuality @ Sep 21st 2006 10:08AM
This is a complete pipe dream. Not that it's technologically impossible, but that it is financial suicide for all involved. And the killer is right there in the post. It costs more to produce. I don't think I'll have more incentive to adopt one HD format or another if I have to pay *more* just to have flexible media. I'll just wait it out till one of the formats is more established.
Didn't we also hear of a Samsung HD-DVD/Blu-ray combo player? And why hasn't that caught on?
These companies have no incentive to help the consumer in this regard. Forcing a choice helps to define a winner and the Blu-ray group and HD-DVD group are both hoping they come out on top, consumer be damned.
Khidr @ Sep 21st 2006 10:10AM
Kilgore,
This is coming from a guy who was also a 3L during IP... but, I don't think so as long as they pay the licensing fees for the use of the format. In other words, by your logic, every studio who manufactures a BR or HD DVD disc would be a potential defendant in an infringement suit. Unless the the terms of the license agreement specifically say, you cannot use blueray in conjunction with any other technologies, then I don't see why a studio couldn't, again, as long as they're paying the licensing fees for it's use. Part of what would be more money for studios (and thus consumers) with hybrid discs, is that each disc would have to pay for 2 licensing fees, instead of one. The upside for these companies, is that they'd only have to press one version.
virtuadept @ Sep 21st 2006 10:11AM
This is a stillbirth idea from the very get-go. No way will these discs become any kind of standard. Producing them is going to be more expensive than any individual other format, and they will pass that cost along to the consumer. No way is the consumer going to pay more for a disc that happens to support other formats he doesn't have a player for.
This idea just sucks, it is no better than just picking one format and sticking with it (which is also stupid from the individual consumer standpoint). This whole format war and hairbrained schemes like this one just shows how out of touch with reality Hollywood and the media producers are to the desires of their audiences. I don't think if you asked a single person on this planet if they were happy about having to choose between Blu-Ray and HD-DVD they'd say yes. It's a big huge waste of time and money for everyone, and the best possible scenario for it is that a bunch of early adopters waste their money on the wrong horse. The worst case scenario is that it's another decade before DVD ever gets replaced, if then.
And as for being able to use this technology in gaming... you were kidding I hope. Not. In a. Million. Years.
copa @ Sep 21st 2006 10:11AM
"I can't believe that Sony or Toshiba would agree to this."
Wild Homes is absolutely correct. Sony and Toshiba would both have to agree to license such a format, which would look suboptimal because it only allots a single layer for each format.
It's not going to happen until the format wars are over.
Gamer G @ Sep 21st 2006 10:19AM
What do Warner Bros know about manufacturing? they are just throwing in the patent incase anyone else (actual manufacturers) come up with the same idea.
More $$ for WB!
delerious @ Sep 21st 2006 10:23AM
That disk has the branding of the company Verbatim, so maybe, possibly, it could go to the mainstream public.
christopher7xii @ Sep 21st 2006 10:25AM
Well, good to know WB is ready for when both sides are tanking and decide on a truce.
Next-Gen-Gamer @ Sep 21st 2006 10:31AM
I have to agree with LunarDuality. Think about it this way. If HD-DVD costs so much to manufacture, and Blu-ray costs so much to manufacture, how expensive do you expect this to be? Not only that, but because they aren't able to have it play on each player (DVD, HD-DVD, Blu-ray) yet, it's completely pointless. Too much money. Too little too late.
I agree with Gamer G too. It's all about the ca$h money.
skuzmak @ Sep 21st 2006 10:43AM
totaly ridiculous, a disc that holds both formats would just perpetuate the format war, not end it. let them battle it out until one format wins, then we won't have to pay two licensing fees on every disc we purchase (benefitting no one but the manufacturers).
darryl @ Sep 21st 2006 10:52AM
"Could the technology lead to layered game discs that work in all three next-gen systems?"
Nope. I guarantee that neither HD-DVD nor Blu-Ray will license hybrid drives. Who wants double the junk in such a drive anyway? One of these two formats will win in short order anyway... I wonder which.
4orty2wo @ Sep 21st 2006 10:56AM
Since Dual-Discs exist now, would it not be possible to have a HD-DVD on one side and Blue Ray on the other?
Rather than a sandwich it could be flipped like a pancake, griddle cake or flapjack.
Josh Clark @ Sep 21st 2006 10:59AM
If the Xbox 360 can play HD-DVD games, then this could be perfect for a Wii, X360, PS3 combo disc. The only problem, it would save the consumer money and cost the publisher. If publishers wanted us to be able to use our purchased media on different media players, then there would be mp3s (or DRM-ed WMAs or AACs) on every music CD.
SuicideNinja @ Sep 21st 2006 11:56AM
This isn't good news opposed to what some might think.
This is a licensing/royalty nightmare, and is totally ridiculous. However, having DVD and HD-DVD included really would put Toshiba on top leaving the Blu-ray camp the odd man out since their share would be a mere 33% of the pie. Talk about making it easier to push Blu-ray out at that point.
Especially when you can ask any non-gamer and non-videophile what Blu-ray is and they don't know. If you ask them what HD-DVD is, they know because it's obvious. I ask people for my own curiosity, but I do tire of explaining the difference.
Where the need for HD-DVD and/or Blu-ray is already questionable, this just makes the situation even more confusing and expensive for consumers.
We don't need another DVDR+- situation.
Agent MOO @ Sep 21st 2006 11:30AM
"Could the technology lead to layered game discs that work in all three next-gen systems?"
Are you kidding me? No company would able to do an officially licensed game for any console like this. First there's the digital signing for each console, which would conflict.
There is no reason a publisher would want to do this, It would piss off Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft, and they would potentially be selling fewer copies by having fewer SKU's and higher prices due to cross platform compatibility.
32_Footsteps @ Sep 21st 2006 11:35AM
Actually, I think it would work financially for movie makers and consumers.
Let's take me, your average consumer that has a DVD player but yet to invest in high def. There's a movie I want to get. Now, I could just get the DVD and be happy. I could commit to a particular next gen format now, but end up screwing myself and picking wrong. However, if I'm willing to spend a hair more (and who knows? It might just be $5 more), I can get a movie that I can watch now and hedges my bets by working on either format.
For the studios, it makes sense, too. I imagine that the prospect of switching between which variety of discs you press for a given movie costs more than it would to produce the dual layer disc. Just as a for instance, what do you think would cost more: pressing 300,000 all-in-one discs, or 100,000 each of Blu-Ray, HD-DVD and regular DVD discs? I have a feeling that once you get into those quantities, the all-in-one is a cheaper prospect overall, and opens you up to the largest amount of market share.
The problem, of course, is that the various manufacturers have great incentive to keep us from being able to do that, so it seems they'd try to make the machines intentionally stupid and thus unable to properly read such discs. It's a great idea in theory, but my gut tells me that it'll be fought against tooth and nail.
vidGuy @ Sep 21st 2006 11:42AM
Surely discs like this would be dramatically more expensive. So maybe it'd be like
Movie A
DVD $14.99
HD-DVD $24.99
Blu-Ray $29.99 - $34.99
Hybrid $49.99
You can't tell me the hybrid would be more attractive. Just buy the player and be done with it.
For gaming, we still don't know what the BluRay games will cost. That price would probably be $10 - $20 more if it was on a hybrid disc. Does anyone want to pay $100+ on a console game, just so the manufacturer can port it across consoles?
mocax @ Sep 21st 2006 11:49AM
movie studios should distribute their movies via digital video on demand kinda thingy.
People buy movies, the movies are then "unlocked" in their accounts. Then they can view it anywhere with devices that support digital broacasts.
So if a tornado blows me house away, I still have my movie collection.
Rob @ Sep 21st 2006 12:17PM
This MIGHT work as #26 said.
One step further: I could produce 200,000 hybrid discs instead of three sets of 100,000 discs since it might be that I have a better of idea overall demand than format specific demands.
J B Cougar @ Sep 21st 2006 12:08PM
*Checks current collection of hundreds of normal DVDs... makes sure they're still there*
Yup, just as I suspected: I could care less about new formats.
Filth @ Sep 21st 2006 12:26PM
If universal game discs were made, they could be used by Sony, Nintendo, and MS to try and block out new comers into the gaming market. On the flip side, it could be seen as an attempt to monopolize the market. If Sony, and Nintendo did this before MS entered the market there might not be an Xbox, or it might not be as popular as it is now.
SnapperDragon @ Sep 21st 2006 12:32PM
This can't be successful. The BR DVD's are actually .1 mm thicker than DVD's and HD-DVD's, so putting it in an existing DVD or HDVD player will cause the laser/lens to get all scratched up.
If it's made to the DVD spec of 1.2mm, then the BR DVD devices (current) will not be able to focus on the data.
I'm guessing this would require any new optical players to support this type of DVD.
If the whole BR-DVD disc format is being dumped (which it seems to be), then I guess the actual "bits" for the BR-DVD data could theoretically be put on this disc. However, the way BR-DVD readers work is way different than DVD or HD-DVD's. It's kinda trying to bypass the BR-DVD hardware, and I don't think Sony will be too happy, because in the end, they are looking to make license fees for the use of their disc format.
For more info, see this good article:
http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/content.php?contentid=62615
Francois @ Sep 21st 2006 12:45PM
The HD-DVD group has also developed a disc that can read both DVD and HD-DVD content on a single side, and I think that gives them a serious edge, much more so than this triple-format disc. Seriously, it's the way it should be; I can stick the disc in an old DVD player and it works, or I can stick it into a newfangled HD-DVD player and it plays in HD. Good old backwards compatibility, and it's one advantage HD-DVD has that Blu-Ray doesn't (at least from what I understand).
There's something pointless about mutli-format discs for video games, though... Or maybe if multi-format discs are possible the problem is that multiple formats are pointless. We should think about a universal platform for console video games before we think of multi-format discs.
Chronos_777 @ Sep 21st 2006 1:01PM
I agree that this is an intrigueing idea, but it most likely won't work because the cost will be too high. What I do think would be a good idea from this would be a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD disc with a normal DVD layer so that you could play it in you HD machine and your normal machine. That way you wouldn't have to buy two copies of the movie. I mean, are you going to upgrade every DVD player you have, including the one in your car, just so that you can watch these new movies? Hopefully it will be like the Hybrid SACD (Super Audio CD). My friend bought Dark Side of the Moon on Hybrid SACD, and he can listen to it in surround sound at home, and in stereo in his car, one disc. For early adopters, this would be helpful, so that the disc isn't completely obsolete if they pick the wrong horse.
Besides, the majority of consumers don't have HDTVs, and couldn't care less about this new format war. I think it is a bad idea to try and force this when DVD is such a great format.
jtatooine @ Sep 21st 2006 1:14PM
I hate all of the new formats. By the time I get my DVD collection to where I want it to be, they'll change the standard format. Say Series 1 of a specific show just came out on DVD and the show goes for 6 seasons. And by Season 5 they just switch formats on me and I'll have to rebuy 1-4 on the new format, just to be able to watch them all. I see the point of switching from VHS to DVD. But not from DVD to a slightly better DVD.
Evan @ Sep 21st 2006 2:22PM
There will never be universal game disks. Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo each collect a licensing fee for every game sold for their system. Who would get the fee on a universal game disk?
Lekko @ Sep 21st 2006 3:17PM
although a pipe dream, it sure would be a good one.
If every game were a cross-platform port, than suddenly the console wars would be completely over. There would be no exclusives, a videogame would just be a videogame, that anyone could play, reguardless of the system. MS and Sony would realize that making two different systems to play basically the same game would be useless, and they would have to innovate in other areas to compete. I.E. the Sony version being 5x larger game world, and MS having a huge multiplayer online component. Nintendo would have motion sensing.
Either way, good idea, never going to work sadly. I guess I'm going to have to put up with fanboy bickering another generation.
James @ Sep 21st 2006 3:32PM
How about this?
One side Blu-Ray. Flip it over. The other side HD-DVD.
Problem solved. Single distribution. Single packaging. Unified! You buy one, you can use either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray but not both at the same time.
darryl @ Sep 21st 2006 3:49PM
"Yup, just as I suspected: I could care less about new formats."
Ok grumpy old man... "720 × 480 pixels! That's the way it was and we *liked* it!"
Don't fear change... change is good. I know you believe that next-gen media will somehow make you current DVD collection disappear, but assure you that when you look around, they'll all still be there. These new playser are backwards compatible, apparently unlike you.
Jdoki @ Sep 21st 2006 4:15PM
God I hope this one goes away. Who wants to pay extra for this multi-format crap.
Why not add in another layer composed of feces, so we can all enjoy the faint waft of shit from these formats that no one really wants or needs.
Let HD-DVD and Blu-Ray duke it out until one is left standing and the other trodden in to the dirt. Then we may start seeing some cost savings passed on to the consumer once everyone starts backing ONE format.
James @ Sep 21st 2006 4:21PM
Isn't all this about choice?
If it's as simple as let them duke it out until one is left standing, then we wouldn't have Quicktime, Real, Windows Media, Flash Video as options as video choices when you want to see a game trailer on some websites. Sure we would like one standard or choice, but isn't it about competition that spurs on innovation?
Jdoki @ Sep 21st 2006 5:11PM
Online video formats isn't the same. Installing a free piece of software to play multiple formats isn't the same as paying extra for a disc capable of playing multiple formats. If Blu-Ray discs are expensive to produce then a disc capable of Blu-Ray and HD-DVD is going to cost even more.
Betamax vs VHS is a more suitable comparison.
You're right though, it is about choice. I wanted ONE value for money choice videotape, and I eventually got VHS. I wanted one type of digital audio and CD beat out Mini-disc etc. I wanted one format of digital movie content, luckily compromises were made and we avoided a format war with DVD.
The same thing could have happened with Blu-Ray / HD-DVD. It was only because the big players couldn't reach an agreement when spec'ing out the successor to DVD that we find ourselves at the start of this format war - it's nothing to do with innovation.
Innovation is doing something different when all your competitors are going down the exact same route a'la PS3, Xbox360 and Wii...
Waccoon @ Sep 22nd 2006 5:15AM
Multiformats never sell.