Sony says no, Immersion says yes
Our colleagues at GameDaily BIZ spoke with Victor Viegas, CEO of force feedback patent holder Immersion, about Sony VP Kaz Hirai's recent comments on the PS3 controller's lack of rumble. Hirai told Kikizo in a taped interview, "If we have to come up with technology ... to isolate the vibration from the sensing, but if that means that the controllers are going to be so expensive, then we're doing the consumer a huge disservice by coming up with a controller that is not very affordable."Viegas responded that his company "knew how to technically solve their problems" and they now "know how to do it without adding any incremental cost." He even cited a third party PS2 controller, the G-Pad Pro, that "incorporates both motion sensing and vibration and goes for the retail price of just $29.95." That's only $5 more than a Dual Shock.
We can't help but be shaken, rumbled even, by the irony of proclaiming cost sensitivity as the purported rationale for excising the controller's force feedback functionality when the console it will wirelessly communicate with has been criticized, by most everyone below the 35% tax bracket, for being extravagantly expensive. Note to Sony: We're pretty sure anyone ponying up $500-$600 for a PS3 would be more than willing to shell out an extra $5 for force feedback.
With Nintendo's rumbling, motion-sensing controller combo going for a princely $60, and Microsoft's rumbling, motion-free 360 gamepad going for a steep $50, how should Sony price their lightweight, rumble-free Sixaxis? They've already said it's got to be affordable.
Other peripheral pricing:
PS3: Dual Shake is dead, long live Sixaxis
Read - Hirai: No Rumble in PS3 Controller Due to Cost
Read - Immersion CEO: Rumble + Motion Not Cost Prohibitive
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Bored @ Oct 5th 2006 2:33PM
SONY is not a gaming company and they never will be. They are simply a hardware company. They don't understand gaming and never will.
crono141 @ Oct 5th 2006 2:36PM
What, no props for the tip? Not even a "Thanks to everyone who sent this in?" I read this at 9:30 this morning (eastern) and promptly tipped it here.
Hows a guy supposed to get a star around here?
darryl @ Oct 5th 2006 2:37PM
I'm glad they've removed the annoying vibration "feature". That'll save me the hassle of having to turn it off.
Dual Shock, you will not be missed (at least by me).
existonfile @ Oct 5th 2006 2:39PM
"Note to Sony: We're pretty sure anyone ponying up $500-$600 for a PS3 would be more than willing to shell out an extra $5 for force feedback."
Totally agree, I made the same point on my site yesterday. Don't worry Sony will eventually add rumble... after we've all bought a couple of controllers without it first.
Ethan @ Oct 5th 2006 2:39PM
screw rumble, all it does is deplete the controllers battery life anyway. We wont miss it.
Me again @ Oct 5th 2006 2:39PM
Rumble doesn't mean shit to me !!! If i'm playing a game and rumble is turned off in the settings menu from the very beginning, i never even notice that it's not on. It's pretty cool to have, but the new motion sensing controller gives the player a new inovative way of actually playing the game. The motion sensing will totally immerse the player into the game where as rumble is just kinda like a side feature that you don't really pay attention to. It would be nice to have both implemented into the final controller, but i don't care if they leave rumble out. I have surround sound with a subwoofer for all the rumble i need !!!!!
C. Grant @ Oct 5th 2006 2:39PM
Sorry crono141! Didn't even see the tip this morning at all, just stumbled on this on my crawl. Re: stars, we're working on revamping our entire comment system (no dates yet, alas) but the functionality is on a temporary hiatus.
Bored @ Oct 5th 2006 2:40PM
lmao @ darryl
I have heard the same thing from *every* SONY drone on *every* site that has posted this.
Rumble is great and deep down you know it. The PS3 is a crippled console.
I'm sorry you won't be able to get your hands on one this year to find that out.
Agent MOO @ Oct 5th 2006 2:43PM
lol at the ridiculous "We don't want to add unnecessary items to the ps3 that will add cost"...
Beta-ray anyone?
darrylmeazn1080pethan @ Oct 5th 2006 2:44PM
That's funny. I was going to make another post like yesterday's Duke Nukem fun ride, but the real darryl, me, and ehtan already beat me to it. azn? Where are you?
B33 @ Oct 5th 2006 2:46PM
"Rumble is great and deep down you know it. The PS3 is a crippled console."
Rumble is alright. It's not necessary for gameplay though. And no rumble doesn't cripple the PS3 at all.
Beeves @ Oct 5th 2006 2:46PM
'but the new motion sensing controller gives the player a new inovative way of actually playing the game'
Hmmm... I'm pretty sure I heard this somewhere before.
Bored @ Oct 5th 2006 2:46PM
aZn_1080p is still in school. Wait fifteen minutes.
Bored @ Oct 5th 2006 2:49PM
@ B33
Rumble is a feature that has been on EVERY current gen console and every next gen console EXCEPT the PS3. I would call that crippled *and* a step backwards into the early '90's.
SONY didn't make a *decision* here, guys. The justice system did. No rumble until you pay.
B33 @ Oct 5th 2006 2:50PM
"Beta-ray anyone?"
Look another unintelligent blu-ray hater that is just made because he has to pay extra cash for a disc format that blows the 360 and Wiis dvd format. Sony is pushing Blu-Ray for games. Not movies. If it fails in the movie department, Sony will still use it for games. Stop whining and think before you shoot out a lame and overly used joke.
TRUTH @ Oct 5th 2006 2:51PM
A $600 dollar system without rumble! Go buy a damn 360 you idiots. 360 has the same games (MOST BETTER) and cost less. Fools!
This generation the 360 is the way to go. Im not bias against any console. I like getting the most for my money. Don't be stupid! Buy a 360 or Wii.
Scythe @ Oct 5th 2006 2:51PM
1. SONY is not a gaming company and they never will be. They are simply a hardware company. They don't understand gaming and never will.
Are you insane Sony has been the gaming Giant for the last few years. The PS2 has sold more then any other system and has provided better games then what is out even today. I have yet to see a game rival Shadow of the Colossus in game play. Even the 360 has yet to produce a game with that level of greatness.
Ryan @ Oct 5th 2006 2:51PM
You would think Sony would settle that whole lawsuit just to shut Immercion up.
Sony: You can't have rumble and tilt sensing
Immersion: Yeah you can and we have a product that can do that
Sony: Rumble costs too much! We are all about saving customers money! (by the way WTF Sony $600 console)
Immersion: Nah you can do it and barely increase cost.
We need an Immersion for the Bush administration.
Zero @ Oct 5th 2006 2:53PM
Going off of Sony's definition of "affordable", this controller will be $79.99, and they will insist that we thank them for selling it so cheap because the 'next generation of controllers doesn't start until they say so'.
Also, 'this controller is like eating at a fine resturaunt in a high tech, fully HD movie theater facility in a space station orbiting Mars in a parallel dimension', compared to the competition's controllers which are still rooted in gameplay on the planet Earth in our own boring dimension.
darryl @ Oct 5th 2006 2:54PM
"I have heard the same thing from *every* SONY drone on *every* site that has posted this."
So there is consensus then? That's even better, I wasn't sure how many other gamers felt the same way I do about this.
"Rumble is great and deep down you know it. The PS3 is a crippled console."
I guess that's why I turn it off, because I think it's grrreat! The PS3 has the longest list of new features than the other new consoles. Hardly crippled.
"I'm sorry you won't be able to get your hands on one this year to find that out."
I have 4 on pre-order and a very large amount of disposable income. I will have more than one PS3 before the holidays, I assure you.
Evan @ Oct 5th 2006 2:54PM
Even if it was true that Sony can't track motion during vibration, games could choose to use one or the other, but not both at the same time. Sony should still have included both, and let game developers choose which to use.
It's obvious that the real reason Sony excluded rumble was to avoid paying license fees. Sony goes to extreme measures to avoid paying for 3rd-party patents and licenses. That's how BluRay was born. HD-DVD was developed by the DVD Forum, of which Sony was a member. But HD-DVD uses patents and licenses that will generate revenue for Toshiba, so Sony spearheaded BluRay. Sony refuses to pay for other companies technology, but expects other companies to pay to license Sony's technology!
lebowsky @ Oct 5th 2006 2:56PM
The Sixaxis is not going to be any cheaper than any other controller out there. It is going to be $42 in Japan. The Wiimote is $32 in Japan which was rounded up to $40 for the US. At $42 in Japan, you know the Sixaxis will go for $50 in the US. Pretty much the same price point as all other controllers, except it lacks rumble. Thanks Sony.
Methane47 @ Oct 5th 2006 2:56PM
I posted this on Kotaku earlier today... So here it is again..
Here is patent number 6,001,014 Filed on Sept 30 1997.
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,001,014.PN.&OS=PN/6,001,014&RS=PN/6,001,014
If you read the patent you will read about how they implement their "vibration"
http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=US006001014&PageNum=4&IDKey=CD931A760540
AND HERE is a picture of how it's implemented inside the Playstation control (this is from the images section of the very same patent)
The Patent that Immersion is using to sue these companies is actually a WHOLE lot more vague than the one you proposed... It actually speaks of sticking rumble cylinders to the back of your hand and that osillate within the cylinder to create the vibrations.. blah blah... Even sony's implementation of Rumble is different from Immersion's... I really dont like these patent trolls..
Anyways I doubt anyone here can name 5 games that have actually used rumble to help them in-game..
Breachless @ Oct 5th 2006 2:57PM
While I think it's completely idiotic that the PS3 controller will not have rumble because Sony has too thick of a skull to bite the bullet and do what it takes to get it, I don't think this is a deal-breaker for most people.
The Wavebird didn't have rumble (which ironically was poked fun at for by the Sony fanboys back in the early days), and that didn't ruin the fact that it was a great controller with wireless functions...
Believe me: all you people wishing a horrible fate on Sony really don't need to even acknowledge this: it's just a tiny insignificant little "oops" in comparison to the other mammoth-sized problems that the PS3 is, and will be facing.
LunarDuality @ Oct 5th 2006 2:58PM
"B33: Rumble is alright. It's not necessary for gameplay though. And no rumble doesn't cripple the PS3 at all."
Have you ever playing Rockstar Games present's Table Tennis? And what about the rumble feature in Assassin's Creed that helps you find suitable hand/footholds while climbing?
Devs are finally putting rumble to good use.
Bored @ Oct 5th 2006 3:00PM
@ Scythe
The success of the PS2 had little to do with SONY and everything to do with third party games.
What has SONY done for gaming that wasn't taken from another company?
superstewy @ Oct 5th 2006 3:01PM
#17
And try playing Shadow of the Colossus without rumble where not only it make the game much better, it's actually built into the gameplay mechanics.
I DONT WANT TO PLAY DEVIL MAY CRY 4 WITHOUT RUMBLE!
Ash @ Oct 5th 2006 3:01PM
Like Kaz Hirai would put it... rumble is SOO last gen.. lol
Lekko @ Oct 5th 2006 3:02PM
I'd be more concerned about battery life than anything..
Motors take up far more juice than just pure electronics. How long does the 360 get off a single charge? What's the Wii going to clock in at? The Sixaxis has been stated that it goes 30 hours on a single charge, that seems good to me.
Still... rumble would be nice, but there are pros and cons to everything. I like sony's stance, "we would rather have another form of input than another form of feedback". Although both would still be nice.
Bran @ Oct 5th 2006 3:05PM
I know that when the rumble is turned off on my 360 controller to save battery, I immediately notice the difference. It's something you think would be small, but when a bomb goes off or you wreck a car, you feel disappointed.
I can't imagine playing Gran Turismo 5 without rumble.
B33 @ Oct 5th 2006 3:05PM
"Rumble is a feature that has been on EVERY current gen console and every next gen console EXCEPT the PS3. I would call that crippled *and* a step backwards into the early '90's."
And the Wii and PS3 have motion sensing technology, yet the 360 is lacking it. Not that it matters, since I really think motion sensing technology is a gimick... When it comes to deciding which one I'd rather have, it'd just be rumble... Or both.
B33 @ Oct 5th 2006 3:05PM
"A $600 dollar system without rumble! Go buy a damn 360 you idiots. 360 has the same games (MOST BETTER) and cost less. Fools!
This generation the 360 is the way to go. Im not bias against any console. I like getting the most for my money. Don't be stupid! Buy a 360 or Wii."
If you buy a console just for rumble then you deserve to be smacked across the face with your console. It's that weak.
No, if you were smart and compared the PS3's exclusives with the 360s, you'd realize who has the better games.
Not bias? You just sat there and stated the basic words that came from Peter Moores mouth. Learn to make decisions for yourself. The only reason you shout "Wii60" is because Moore said it. Use your brain, and stop listening to just what a moron that gets a new tattoo to hype a game says.
In the end, your just another fool who listens too much to a lot of the lies and bad press put out. The PS3 is $500-$600. You don't need the $600 version and the differences are so slim, I doubt Sony will even put the $600 out(at this rate).
400,000 is 60,000 units more then what the 360 put out at launch. And the 360 had delays in Europe too. Why is that everyone gives Sony a hard time? Yet says that Nintendo and Microsoft can do no wrong? Get over your inner fanboy.
crono141 @ Oct 5th 2006 3:06PM
"Beta-ray anyone?"
Pure genius!
crono141 @ Oct 5th 2006 3:06PM
Wii, with speaker, rumble, and IR, clocks in at a MINIMUM of 30 hours on 2 AA batteries, up to 60 if the speaker isn't used.
Whats wasting all that energy in the PS3 controller that it only lasts 30 hours?
TRUTH @ Oct 5th 2006 3:07PM
I must be blind!
Very blind!
Why the hell do people think this console is a good buy?
Why do people WANT to buy it?
All it is offering is a high price tage.
Am I the only one that thinks the 360 is better!
Bored @ Oct 5th 2006 3:07PM
@ darryl
When I say SONY drones, I mean fanboys. I guess you missed that implication. A fanboy will defend *anything* their favorite console maker does, even if it's stupid (like you). All other SONY users are confused by this decision.
The PS3 doesn’t have more features than the 360. The *only* feature it has that the 360 doesn't is a web browser.
And about your preorders, good luck there. Those should be fulfilled sometime in March.
Me again @ Oct 5th 2006 3:07PM
Screw rumble...it sux and doesn't make the game experience better.....motion sensing allowes you to do things in the game like never before......flying your warhawk or dragon in lair, or even driving your dune buggy in motorcross !!! Even basketball games....shooting the ball with a free-throw motion....that shit is freakin awesome and all the xbox queers are mad cuz their system doesnt have motion sensing.....only fans of a system without the new tech will talk shit about it !!! end story
copres @ Oct 5th 2006 3:08PM
there must be some other reason. why would sony not
put rumble in to the new controllers if it only cost
an extra $5? it must be production issues or something.
it just doesnt make any business sense
NorCal05 @ Oct 5th 2006 3:08PM
"7. Sorry crono141! Didn't even see the tip this morning at all, just stumbled on this on my crawl. Re: stars, we're working on revamping our entire comment system (no dates yet, alas) but the functionality is on a temporary hiatus.
Posted at 2:39PM on Oct 5th 2006 by C. Grant"
I was wondering why darryl doesn't have any negative stars!
eight @ Oct 5th 2006 3:09PM
"Look another unintelligent blu-ray hater that is just made because he has to pay extra cash for a disc format that blows the 360 and Wiis dvd format. Sony is pushing Blu-Ray for games. Not movies. If it fails in the movie department, Sony will still use it for games. Stop whining and think before you shoot out a lame and overly used joke."
I'm sorry, i'm all about Blu-ray as far as HD disc technology but i dont see that paying off right now. I would say in 2 years Blu-ray will blow DVD out of the water but the PS3 cannot take advantage of that unless they send everyone new machines... The bottleneck that occurs trying to get inofrmation off of a Blu-ray disc actually makes for LONGER load times than a standard DVD. So pack all the information you want onto a BR disc its going to take forever to load it up, 40% longer than DVD.
So next time you insult someones comment, you should do your resarch.
btw... on topic... the rumble is a great feature that sony stole from nintendo, and now motion sensing is a great feature that sony stole from nintendo... i see a pattern here...
Next-Gen-Gamer @ Oct 5th 2006 3:10PM
I'm not too big on the PS3, but come on. I've played many GameCube games without rumble, and never noticed. I don't use the DS rumble pack that a relative bought me. It's not a big deal. I like having it, but it's wouldn't kill me to lose it. And people are right about the battery life of a wireless controller with vibration. That's why many people are going to be pissed off with the Wiimote on launch day. During the launch window, people go home and play their new consoles for days. In other words, expect people to get mad when they need to change their Wiimote batteries on November 20th.
That being said, $5 extra for vibration isn't much. Just incorporate a switch that'll allow you to turn it off if you want. Or just make a rumble pack add-on.
All that aside, I think we all know the truth. It's not that it's difficult, or expensive. As someone said before, it was the justice system. I think Sony is still bitter over that lawsuit. Maybe they should just suck it up, and pay for vibration like everyone else. Nintendo and Microsoft paid Immersion early, so they wouldn't have a giant lawsuit. Just because they're Sony doesn't mean they're right.
TRUTH @ Oct 5th 2006 3:10PM
@ B33
WHAT EXCLUSIVE?
Most of the lame ass PS3 exclusives are going to be one the 360.
GOW>MGS4
Mass Effect> FF
biohazard @ Oct 5th 2006 3:11PM
@23
"Anyways I doubt anyone here can name 5 games that have actually used rumble to help them in-game"
1 Any driving game on a race track: The ideal path through a corner involves hitting the rumble patch (curb) at the apex of the corner. A rumble controller gives that feedback, and lets me know if I am close to the ideal line, and if I need to move to block cars behind me because I was sloppy through the corner.
2 Any FPS with a less than obvious damage indicator (looking at COD2): When getting shot from out of my direct line of sight the feedback lets me know someone is shooting me and I should probably duck or change direction.
3 Online card game (Uno and Texas Hold'em come to mind): When my turn comes up the rumble of the controller in my hands reminds me I need to do something; useful if I'm distracted by PIP, or real life.
4 Ok, you got me, I don't have a fourth figured out yet...
5 MGS1: who didn't like getting special attention from Dr. Naomi Hunter?
Scythe @ Oct 5th 2006 3:15PM
@ Bored
The same can be said for MS then if you want to go that route. What has MS done that the PC didn't already do? Or any other console for that matter?
Sony took console games to Cd then DVD giving us better games each gen. MS hasn't IMO done anything new compared to the last x-box. I already had wireless controllers and networking, but now I just have prettier graphics. If I want to watch HD movies I have to buy another attachment and if I want to play against friends online I have to pay for that to.
Atleast with the PS3 I pay one price for one device. Not 3 different things, sorry but even for the higher price the PS3 isn't all that bad.
mcloki @ Oct 5th 2006 3:15PM
I can't believe that Joystiq actually gets into this. This is a company licensing fight plain and simple. Immersion obviously wants more money than Sony wants to spend. End of licensing money for Immersion. So Immersion in a classic sour grapes play says "Oh Games aren't very good without it" And generally tries to keep their name in the headlines. Maybe it's my general dislike for patent trolls but can we just cut off the "free publicity" air supply for companies like this and let them die already.
Erich @ Oct 5th 2006 3:16PM
So before they were saying: When people see our product, cost won't be an issue... Now they're saying: We don't want the cost to be a disservice to our customers.
Someone tell those Sony reps to actually say something without contradicting themselves just once.
Donnie Bouchard @ Oct 5th 2006 3:18PM
Im not jealous about the motion sensor sixaxis. That controller is going to only add to a few games. Tell me how that controller will help with a first person shooter or rpg. We all know in the end its just gonna be a controller like any other. The wii will be the winner on the motion controller. Nintendo is crazy like that. And its all about games and games. A controller wont make a console or a game. Except maybe on the wii.
TRUTH @ Oct 5th 2006 3:20PM
"Sony took console games to Cd then DVD"
No sega did that way before Sony! Go back to school!
"Atleast with the PS3 I pay one price for one device. Not 3 different things, sorry but even for the higher price the PS3 isn't all that bad."
lol what
Ryan @ Oct 5th 2006 3:20PM
@Breachless
I agree with you. The people who read and post here are not the average joe consumer. Joe Smith out there is not likely going to know that the PS3 doesn't have rumble and may not even notice it while he plays games.
I just think from advancing games as a whole mindset that this is a step back. If companies can use the tilt well then this was worth it, but rumble is very useful in immersing players in the game. Now some people claim they turn it off but I hate to break it that set that they are in the minority on this one. So back to the point when I read that in Resistance that you would use the tilt function to throw off enemies that have attacked you. That's pretty cool. But 1 cool use in 1 game does not make me think that this is going to be a good trade off for rumble.
We know rumble is used in almost every game, we know that the Wii will use motion sensing in every game because that is how it is designed, Sony traded out a commonly considered standard part of gaming for a feature that will be optional for developers to use (vs Nintendo's attack plan) and I'm just not sure that many will use it.
Which leaves you with a console that has no ability to use rumble and may not ever use the tilt functionality. To me as a gamer that just isn't something I'm willing to bet on yet.
crono141 @ Oct 5th 2006 3:21PM
Someone once said here, and I agree with them, that the real innovation of the Wii controller isn't motion sensing (even though it is innovative) but the modular control scheme, with a primary controller with a slot for optional add on controllers in the left hand.
When you think about it, there are lots of peripherals that could go there: Pedals for racing games, for instance, in addition to all the planned peripherals already.
The modularity itself will change controllers forever.