Mizuguchi defends Lumines Live
Q Entertainment founder Tetsuya Mizuguchi spoke with IGN today to defend his choice to split Lumines Live into four pieces (Basic, Advanced, VS CPU, and Mission / Puzzle pack). He gives two reasons for the division: the 50 MB limit on XBLA title (understandable) and the customizable nature of the game (not understandable). Mizuguchi considers it the business model of the future.When IGN presses him on the cost issue, Mizuguchi pauses. After IGN pushes on, Mizuguchi furthers his belief in the piece-wise business model. Theoretically, we don't mind the model so much as the price, and unfortunately IGN never gets Mizuguchi talking about the release date and pricing for the VS CPU and Mission / Puzzle pack.
So is Lumines holy like a saint or hole-y like swiss cheese? Q Entertainment still hasn't responded to our request on release date and pricing details. The Advanced Pack game is now on Xbox Live for 600 MS points ($7.50 USD).
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Miniboss @ Oct 19th 2006 7:43PM
I get it. So for the next Ninety-Nine Nights, you'll have to buy 98 of the other Nights separately...
Eric @ Oct 19th 2006 7:46PM
As Advertised 1200 points = FULL GAME
What I got for 1200 points = Incomplete Game
Why did they turn XBOX Live into XBOX Lies?
pete @ Oct 19th 2006 7:47PM
im glad ign pressed him on the issue or tried anyway. dont buy the game and these crazy kats wont do this shit no more. c'mon, the power of wallet conpells you, or them i should say
adios.........
Rask @ Oct 19th 2006 7:48PM
The only thing I have an issue with is how it was posted as the full game for 1200 instead of the actual "Core Lumines" and with additional parts coming later.
Yes I was aware of how they would do this because I follow gaming news, sadly now everyone does hence the backlash.
I had never played Lumines in the past (in fact, I don't think I've ever actually seen a PSP apart from pictures online) so this is all new to me and playing the trial convinced me to buy the game.
I won't be buying any of the artist packs(Fuck the RIAA), nor will I be buying the Mission/Puzzle pack(they're way too limited in their replayability) however once I'm done with the base mode, I'm going to seriously consider picking up the advanced pack if i'm not sick of the game by then.
As Mizuguchi said, It's all about customizing the experience and I'm all for paying 15$ for the base and then adding whichever expansion I want after the fact.
Erec @ Oct 19th 2006 7:49PM
If they would have just sold it normally for $30, there would have been no adverse reaction. But because they split it up the way they did, there's been this backlash.
Microsoft should have either found a way to sell a version of Lumines on the Arcade for $15-20 or they should have just sold Lumines Live through standard means for $30. Hopefully they learn their lesson.
Personally, it doesn't bother me much, but that's because I'll know ahead of time it'll be $30 for everything. But for people who thought they were getting a phenomenal deal at $15, I can understand how they'd be miffed.
Miniboss @ Oct 19th 2006 7:52PM
Actually, reading that interview, I'm very glad IGN at least asked the question, and asked in the manner in which they did, bringing their own personal feelings on the matter into it (that they even thought the cost of entry was a little extreme). Good job to IGN!
And yes, pigs are flying now that I've said that...
KineticOnline @ Oct 19th 2006 7:53PM
Hes just got to learn, we aint PS3 fanboys who want to download things for the sake of downloading them. Arcade game = a full game which is less that 50mb. Optional extras can be added them with addon pack. Like with outpost x thingy (i cant remember the exact name but you know the one i mean) Selling a game in parts just isnt acceptable, especially when all the parts arnt available at the beginning. Would you buy a pc if you were told that the second half of the ram and your DVD rewriter would be ready sometime next year and they will cost you almost the same as what you have already payed. I doubt it
krizage @ Oct 19th 2006 8:00PM
There is an interesting write up on this “model” on Penny Arcade right now. Tycho makes the point that this model (customizable, piece-wise, nickel and dime) will ultimately yield a little more scratch and is perhaps a better business model.
This could get old really quick. I think the initial back lash over the first Oblivion horse content should be taken pretty seriously. We don’t mind paying for material. I have bought games on Live. Some great some not so great… I can live with that. What I don’t like is feeling like I am getting led along, while being bled for cash. At some point you stop feeling like a customer who is in control of what they are buying and you start feeling like a girl who let her prom date go a little too far.
I think it is really interesting that the first Xbox game (Lumines) to really use this model was first seen on a Sony unit. This might look like a better business model and a better way to generate more money… but what are the long term repercussions when you have also managed to generate resentment toward your brand. I don’t mind paying 60 bucks for a game… but I do mind paying 60 bucks for a game and then another 30 just to make it playable. If this is the future of gaming, I may have to go back to pong.
otakucode @ Oct 19th 2006 8:02PM
In 6 months I hope IGN calls him back and pushes him on the sales figures.
Does Microsoft ever release sales information about the games on the Live Arcade? Is it available in those $2000 reports about game sales?
Dirk Dorkelson @ Oct 19th 2006 8:09PM
Billing the game on XBLA as the "full game" and then having artificial limits placed on how far you can advance in the game so they can sell you additional content is deceitful and a poor business model. I guess it's Q's right to sell their game that way if they want, but the description of the game on XBLA isn't very up front about the fact they're doing this. As someone who believes in voting with my wallet, I won't be buying this or any other Q Entertainment product.
For the $25 or $30 it eventually takes to buy the actual full game, I'd rather have a physical game in my hands that I can take over to my friends' houses, sell when I'm done with it or play on my Xbox 720 or whatever they call it. $25 or $30 for a downloadable game that I have to buy piecemeal is just too much scratch.
Psaakyrn @ Oct 19th 2006 8:10PM
I will endorse this model on ONLY one condition: when other people can also make content for the same base product. In this way, they can't monopolise the game and leech the users. (See example: NWN expansions, vs user-made content)
Mat @ Oct 19th 2006 8:18PM
Pricing is not why we are furious over this.
It's the fact that there is false advertising. I was like WTF when I tried to play a VS. Game and have it tell me that it required another purchase from an unavailable pack. At least write it in the fucking game notes.
XBLA games are going to start requiring "package contents" so that the consumer knows exactly what they are buying.
dvddesign @ Oct 19th 2006 8:19PM
I call bullcrap on the 50MB limit.
What do they plan on doing when Symphony of the Night gets released on XBLA? Sell us the soundtrack separately?
nickel@dime @ Oct 19th 2006 8:26PM
@14
With the way things are going you shouldn't even joke like that
Moogle @ Oct 19th 2006 8:47PM
No CD production, no case, no manual, limited gameplay, can't resell it, and yet no real price break. Lemme guess, no price drop over time either?
Well, at least MS is showing us just how nasty this new business model is. Now here's hoping consumers realize it as well and vote with their wallets or complain bitterly. Maybe things will improve.
Ahh, who am I kidding, we're screwed.
Kyattsuai @ Oct 19th 2006 8:53PM
@14
What is a man? A miserable little pile of microtransactions?
Anyway, I'd just like to say I like Mizuguchi the game designer a lot better than I like Mizuguchi the economist. Wake me when Space Channel 5 Part 3 comes out...
striderhayasa @ Oct 19th 2006 8:54PM
I call douche-bag on this one. I had the entire day to sit down and absorb the Lumines live new and it stinks.
This is the prime example of why I don't support microtransaction. Is it me, or has companies decided that gamers and the game industry is the new money tree to be fleeced?
In the last year, we've seen and heard of new developments that are supposed to give us a better gaming experience and costs far too much. Only to have the company turn around and say "it's the way of the future." or "you NEED this development" WTF?
The fact of the matter is if Mizuguchi/Q entertainment were going to nickel and dime us to death then they should have released a Lumines "Limited" that included ALL game modes but less music, less videos and less skins. That would still suck but not quite as much. All game options should be available from the outset. This is a rip-off and I wouldn't support it. Microsoft should have never allowed the game to be released in an incomplete form, period.
The second reason that Mizuguchi gave for the current release is total BS. This is clearly a company trying to milk the consumer for all its worth. Pass.
jarod @ Oct 19th 2006 9:40PM
mizuguchi can cram it up his out-of-touch, money grubbing ass, which coincidentally is covered by pants crammed full of stupid consumer's money.
i was really looking forward to lumines live, but right now, i aint blowing $15 on a "full game", only to have to complete it with 3 more purchases. ill go play some free flash ripoff TYVM.
livefromphiladelphi @ Oct 19th 2006 9:45PM
I wonder how many people just decided not to buy a 360 because of things like this…I know hearing about micro transactions for the first time during E3 05’ was rather off-putting.
I wonder if this “vote with your wallet” mantra MS employees stick with is less apparent in the sales of things like horse armor and more apparent in the somewhat lackluster sales the 360 has done so far (less than the original Xbox at the same point in its lifecycle, according to that article on Joystiq from the 16th – also being outsold by the PS2).
Infil @ Oct 19th 2006 9:50PM
Anyone notice how, on the whole, MS and Sony's next-gen "advancements" in the industry all end up costing us a ton of money? "But don't worry, it'll be worth it in the end!"
Meanwhile, Nintendo comes out and shows us that their next-gen advancement immediately translates directly into more fun for the user, bar none.
I'm subscribing more and more to Nintendo's business plan every single day.
Carmine @ Oct 19th 2006 9:58PM
Mizuguchi talks about being able to customize the game and download tracks to your liking, but this isn't what they're offering. It's a barebones game with a majority of the skins available as a single, separate package. If we could download tracks we liked -- individually -- for less than a dollar a pop, it might be more tolerable.
bdeluxe @ Oct 19th 2006 10:15PM
Love the psp version for $20... got Full Live version this morn, $15 for a demo(which closely resembles the psp version skins/songs). Thanks for the bait and switch Mizuguchi... I never buying another game/thing from you even if all the pubs shit you golden trophies for it. No thanks.
And MS, take note, this ain't helping Live's rep!
JUJUSTSHUTUP @ Oct 19th 2006 10:20PM
WHO IS REALLY SURPRISED BY ANY OF THIS? CUZ REALLY IF U ARE, WHERE THE HELL U BEEN?
BOYCOTT THAT MICROTRANSACTION S#!T.
BklynKid @ Oct 19th 2006 10:26PM
Fuck you guy! I'm not buying your $30 POS game no matter how popular and good it may be. No fuckin way!
potato @ Oct 19th 2006 11:28PM
ahhhhhhhhhh... just like the good ol' days
r0Be @ Oct 20th 2006 12:04AM
Microtansactions FTL. I'd rather be offline gaming on my console, getting entire games and online gaming with my PC getting online games without having to pay bunk shot.
But plenty will pay this. Little kiddies dig the micro prices and micro bits and bytes. More power to em and there micro parents.
unimental @ Oct 20th 2006 12:08AM
I'll admit to getting burned on this one, as I really felt I was getting the full game. Live and learn.
puddlejumper @ Oct 20th 2006 12:58AM
As I said in the other thread, I feel burned too. LIke many people, I never played Lumines before but heard the hype. I played the demo and then said, wow I do like it.
I buy it. It is not as advertised. They really should have released the game on disc for $45 or whatever with the complete package and then created additonal packs for download later on. So Mizuguchi's "customization" logic just doesn't cut it.
I am boycotting the advance pack until a) i finish the base and desperately want it b) they drop the price c) download some future pack that I actually want which is set at a reasonable price.
The only way Microsoft, Q Entertainment and any future nickel and dimers will listenb, is to hit them on their revenue.
Carl @ Oct 20th 2006 4:27AM
Wait wait..
You mean you couldn't just relase the game as it is (50MB) and give away the other game modes for free as marketplace items?
To his excuse of it being the "customizable nature of the game"... That's just not cool. I want to buy Lumines Live... I haven't though. Like I'd feel jiped if I did.
Tatsuya @ Oct 20th 2006 5:51AM
I didn't read the news for a week and bought Lumines Live without knowing you had to pay to access certain modes. I can tell that I'm very disappointed with Mizuguchi and Q!Entertainment. I guess next time I'll by one one of their game I'll think twice.
If this is the futur of console gaming I'mgoing to return to my good old PC.
Don Jose @ Oct 20th 2006 6:15AM
Lumines...fun, but...meh, I'd rather have spent my $15 on a visually touched-up, FULL version of Tetris.
mietha CAG @ Oct 20th 2006 8:06AM
The biggest problem with referring to this crap as "microtransactions" is the base pack, with is a slightly glorified demo, is tied for the most expensive item on live (with Bankshot Billiards 2 and GRAW chapter 2), and the complete game, not extra content, just the game they claimed you were buying in the first place, will be over $30. There is nothing "micro" about $30. This should have either been released broken up over arcade for $20 or, better yet, on a disc for $40. Better than $30 for something with $0 resale value is the ultimate in BS, especially since most people won't know what they are falling for beforehand. Bad, bad move on MS's and Q Entertainment's parts. Live arcade and marketplace were both rolling along good. MS should not have approved this crap and the Tiger Woods BS. Hell, at least TW isn't deceitful, just lame. If you have money to support crap like this, go buy a PSP and the real, much better, version of the game.
Poot @ Oct 20th 2006 10:36AM
This game should have been sold complete in the stores.
It has no place on Live with these costs, and in multiple packs.
I'm not sure what Q? and Microsoft were thinking, but they need to get their act together or get stomped by Nintendo and Sony.
John Lucas @ Oct 20th 2006 11:07AM
One game. One price.
End of story.
I think I see why people don't quite trust Microsoft which is why XBox 360 hasn't quite taken the world by storm.
The word "microtransactions" just SOUNDS like "nickel-and-dime". You hear it in the context! Game tolls. Hahahahaha! That's never gonna fly.
Pay-Per-Play. Psshhhhh. Hahahaha!
And for a game as simple as Lumines???
It has nothing to do with technological limitations or inability to fit the space of the disc.
Nobody's going for that mess.
People MAY put up with half-assed barely-changed sequels for a new price but not divided up single games. People MAY buy an add-on like Sonic & Knuckles but they won't buy different modes of the same game.
People may expansion pak for hi-res graphical output & more memory but they will NOT pay-to-play on every single feature.
Mizuguchi better get his head on straight before people start protesting his creations wholesale. They may not buy any more games he makes thinking he's out to chip pennies from them for the littlest things.
John Lucas
Gary @ Oct 20th 2006 1:55PM
Post #15 / Moogle - I couldn't have said it better, thank you. Microsoft is now showing its teeth.
The consumer loses with Xbox downloads.
Maybe we could somehow have the consumer's grand wizard, Ralph Nader to put his perspective on this?