PS3's Genji uses HDD to quarter load times
Before jumping into Genji to deal some massive damage to historically accurate giant crabs (nyuk nyuk) during Sony's Gamer's Day event on Thursday, MTV News' Stephen Totilo noticed a curious menu option: INSTALL
What's this all about? Totilo writes, "Also unexpected was a feature in Genji to install the game, committing 4GB of data from the game's Blu-ray disc to the PS3's hard drive -- a three-minute one-time-only procedure available from the game's start menu that a Sony rep said cuts down in-game load times from about 15 seconds to four seconds."
So, regardless of the debate about the relative read speeds of 2x Blu-ray drives and 12x DVD drives, we can all recognize the obvious benefits of having a hard drive included by default. Why Genji appears to be the only title sporting this option is another question. Did excessive load times in the PS3's first finished title necessitate extraordinary measures, or will most games offer this time-saving option, à la PC games.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Imadogg @ Oct 21st 2006 2:07AM
Ah sick. I hope fanboys and haters don't start saying how this sucks... I have a 360 and I think this is pretty cool, maybe we could be able to do that after getting that 100GB HDD.
Good thinking Genji!
Inferno @ Oct 21st 2006 2:12AM
:/ So much for benefits of console gaming. People were picketing with torches when the Xbox1 specs included a hard drive... "Does this mean we have to install games! Burn MS! This must mean incomplete games which require patches to be functional! off with their heads!" Now the same people who are devotedly in the Sony camp will tout this as a wonderful feature. But I hope for Sonys sake, that isn't the case. With their supposed 25+GB games, that might mean that only Premium purchasers will be able to enjoy the low loadtime/ patched versions of PS3 games. Well, they said it isn't a game console. So why not right?
bearattack79 @ Oct 21st 2006 2:15AM
Ok cool, but tomorrow they will cancel it.
Infil @ Oct 21st 2006 2:23AM
The PS3 is looking less and less like a gaming console, and more and more like a PC, by the second. It's called "minimum install" vs. "complete install" for PC games.
Cool if you have the space on your HD, I guess. And when you're done, you can wipe it. But hey! This has been going on on the PC for years now.
What about games that don't require 20+ second load times? Oh yeah. The Wii. *checks to make sure everything is still in order for grabbing one on launch day*
Next we know, the PSP will have a HDD add-on so it can decrease its load times. That's the solution to everyone's load time woes!
Angelo @ Oct 21st 2006 2:23AM
Hmm, actually, this could feasibly be done with the 360 as well. The "Install" part is just an option, right? It's not required at all. If a 360 player (heaven forbid) does not possess an HD, he could still play without the enhanced loading.
Curious, though... could the load-saving data be safely removed from the HD should one did not to want it around anymore (preserving game save data)? Well, I mean, obviously they COULD but I'm curious as to whether or not it will function that way in the final game.
ArX07 @ Oct 21st 2006 2:26AM
Gamespot also mentions this feature is available in RR7 so it is not just Genji.
mesocool @ Oct 21st 2006 2:26AM
huh? This is OLD and has been done on the PC for YEARS except you can only load 4 games maximum on the 20gig drive and maybe 14 for the bigger one( the hard drive needs cache and operating system space and losses some for blocking the bigger the drive , the more space lost) after all.
Infil @ Oct 21st 2006 2:29AM
Sorry if I sound like I'm hating. In theory this is kind of a neat idea, but I suppose at the heart of it, it's a PC idea. And that's what really irks me. I'm not getting a PS3, so it doesn't really affect me, but the whole "let's make this a PC as much as we can" is retarded, because it will never have the benefits of the PC, but yet will introduce many negatives.
I suppose for those people who are digging the fact that the PS3 is moving farther and farther away from being a console are happy, though. That's just not me. We don't need more PCs on the market.
It's just yet another reminder to me of what the PS3 wants to be, and what it will ultimately fail to be.
CakeOrDeath @ Oct 21st 2006 2:38AM
In one sense this is cool in another a lot less so.
Reduced load times great but does this thing need to install like a PC and when I get more than 5 games and my HD Drive is full what happens then?
Intellectualdiot @ Oct 21st 2006 2:48AM
Excuse me, but why are we lauding developers who indulge in lazy programming tactics because they've instead relegated themselves to dependency on a HD. THEORETICALLY, caching data for speedier load times is a perfectly acceptable practice. Yet when we approach an area of such egregious exploitation (4 GBs? Are you kidding me?), it's hard to feel quite as excited about the prospects. Shouldn't we be asking why this particular game bogarts such a relatively large amount of space? Does this by any stretch of the imagination seem average? If not, then shouldn't this be IMPROVED? (God forbid that it actually get worse...) If this is indeed average, then how well does that bode for our supposedly spacious HDDs?
I'm not decrying the usage of caching in PS3 titles, but rather half-baked implementation of it. This simply won't do, Sony.
cheese @ Oct 21st 2006 2:56AM
I can install games on my original xbox.. oh wait :) nvm. I don't see why anyone is surprised at this development, both the xbox and the 360 have/had many "PC" features, such as voice chat, a hard drive, network adapter, usb ports, rip music, etc. So, why is it that now that PS3 is doing it does everyone have a cow? How much does your pc cost vs. how much the PS3 cost again? Yeah, that's what I thought.
latpack @ Oct 21st 2006 3:01AM
finally some good news on the PS3.
too bad it still sucks ass.
Ragnarokender @ Oct 21st 2006 3:03AM
15 seconds is a long natural load time...
ivanv4 @ Oct 21st 2006 3:07AM
so u will can only play 5 games in the 20gb before starting to wipe out and install again if i want to play another game?
bearattack79 @ Oct 21st 2006 3:10AM
Hmmmm Blu-ray, this is a gen1 PS3 game right? WOW lots of SPACE! Ya Space thats about it. Popcorn anyone.
KawF @ Oct 21st 2006 3:46AM
Let's see... the 360 caches data to the harddrive (install basically) IF such a device is available.... and that's ok.
The PS3 can do the same and due to a Hard Drive device being standard on all SKU's, they can even offer an even more advanced caching option... and that's bad.
Yeah...
Fanboys.
Superdotman @ Oct 21st 2006 3:49AM
It's a convenient solution to solve a problem that shouldn't have been there in the first place. Good job, Genji team, for working around the PS3's shortcomings! 4GB is a tad much, though. The game had better be worth the space.
hot zizzy @ Oct 21st 2006 3:54AM
I assume it is optional (otherwise it would suck...you want to be able to choose when you take up 4 GB of space), which means that the 360 could do a similiar thing - have an option, and those with a hard drive could choose it. Xbox 360 just need a bigger hard drive... come on!! Release one!!
O_o @ Oct 21st 2006 4:00AM
"The Playstation 3 Is a Computer"
Lagomorpho @ Oct 21st 2006 4:13AM
Does this mean I'll be able to rent a copy and have a full version of it saved to my PS3 for as long as I want it?
Also, people seem to be glossing over the fact that the entire game is only 4GB.
JUJUSTSHUTUP @ Oct 21st 2006 4:54AM
4gbs yo,.... get da f**k OUT
Chris_Smack @ Oct 21st 2006 5:26AM
Most people seem to be forgetting that it's optional, and there will obviously be the choice of deleting the 4GB of data once you've finished it. Who's really going to play more than 5 games regularly? and 15 seconds is not really that long to wait, some 360 games take as long
lolo @ Oct 21st 2006 5:39AM
stupid sony. cuting down in-game load times?
they should cut other things, like price.
maybe if they toss that overpriced Bluray 2 the garbage the could do that. wanna go cheap?
launch with a cd drive for all i care, as long as you have that hdd, storage /data transfer rate is not the real problem here:
sony is the problem, they are afraid, afraid of pirates. Afraid of you and me, afraid of M$oft
they want to control his precious data.
wrong
instead of forcing this Blu shit,they should give us options, embrace Digital Distribution(bittorrent, Steam) etc
nambit @ Oct 21st 2006 5:40AM
Being that there's a hard drive in the damned game machine, why not use it? Caching is good. I figure, you only play a few games at a time. Strange, 3 minutes and you're done... how long do folks wait to download simple demos off LIVE again? C'mon, it's a no brainer, and it's good for you the gamer. Faster=better. Anyone with a *COUGH* modded XBOX can vouch for the advantages. I guess the Genji crew learned from the mod scene. :)
Infil @ Oct 21st 2006 6:30AM
KawF: There's a much bigger problem here. Xbox360 and PS3 can, should, do, and will use caching on the hard drive. But there is a huge difference between caching data and installing data. An installation takes many minutes, if not longer than that. Caching happens on the fly, and the user is not even aware it is taking place.
Caching is expected. Installation is not.
See, this all starts innocently enough. Genji is still fully playable without any installation, and some people might be quick to defend that. That's great, but look at what's started here. Pretty soon, reviews will shirk the responsibilities of lazy programmers because "well, this game takes 40 seconds to load between levels, but if you install it to your hard drive, load times are very fast". It's like an excuse to be lazy; as long as a user installs your game to the hard drive, all your streaming woes and load time problems go away. You won't spend any time optimizing your code for those who don't have 4 spare Gigabytes on their hard drive for your game.
Eventually, some games will REQUIRE an install. Look at where microtransactions on 360 have come in just one short year (Lumines); this was a slippery slope started a long time ago, and it's culminating now. This installation thing is another huge slippery slope.
Sony is already giving companies huge excuses to be lazy with programming and compression due to Blu-ray capabilities ("hey, we have all this space, why write good efficient code or compress our files?"), this is just the next step.
This is only going to be negative for gamers in the long run, and it will affect PS3 fans the most upfront.
This may sound doom and gloom, but talk to me again in two or three years. See if you don't long for the days when you didn't have to install the latest PS3 game to get load times under 1 minute. :P
Pulse @ Oct 21st 2006 6:31AM
People, stop being so stupid! This is not just good news for Sony, its good news for everyone, how the F did Sony get into this convo? Is it because Genji happens to be a PS3 game, you people really need to stop hating on a console, get a bloody life! Don't you have anything else to do? You poor bored sods!
If this is possible, that is superb, this will shorten the length of load times on both consoles, plus it will mean you won't have to go and get the CD everytime you want to play, plus it also means, you may be able to share games with your mates, unless theres a serial code to get online or something.
Stop being stupid, any excuse to attack Sony, like as if you are in any position you go around throwing comments.
Bill @ Oct 21st 2006 6:47AM
Including a hard drive was perhaps the stupidest thing Sony did with the PS3. And that's saying a lot.
Why do you think all the Sony fanboys on Gaf are always running around begging MS to drop the core pack?
The Hard Drive is just so useless. Why Sony, why? I'm glad though because I hate the PS3.
That sonofabitch hard drive will be an anchor around the PS3's neck. The Blu Ray drive price will drop like a rock. The Cell price will drop like a rock over time. The hard drive never will.
ttr @ Oct 21st 2006 6:52AM
This is the stupidest feature ever. They should just take it out than even allow people the option of doing that. Why the hell would I want to waste valuable hard drive space just to save a few seconds on the startup? What the hell is the disc for itself if all you're doing is copying all the data to the hdd right away? They should just offer the game for download rather than having to buy a damn disc that becomes totally useless once you 'install' it.
I miss the old days of PC games where you could actually do minimum installs. Nowadays the disc is purely for verification that you actually own the product. They don't even play music off the disc anymore! Everything is just copied to the hdd and wasting space when it doesn't need to occupy any space at all. But I still have to keep the discs around to play the game, even though all the data on the disc is on my hdd?
There should be absolutely no data at all stored on the hdd, or as little as possible. I mean less than 1MB of data, anything more is just wasted. The only games that should take up any space at all on the hdd are the downloaded ones.
potato @ Oct 21st 2006 6:54AM
giant crabs, Italian stereotypes
we're all friends
bearattack79 @ Oct 21st 2006 7:06AM
Pulse, you should read the article again. I believe its you whos being stupid. Yes you.
Rask @ Oct 21st 2006 7:11AM
Noone's brought up this point so I will.
What happens when you get into a MP game with someone who doesn't have his game installed on his HDD?
That's right, you'll be in a holding pattern for 10-12 seconds while you wait for that guy to load his game.
Can you imagine that conversation over the voicechat?
impatient dude : WHO THE $%^$% RUNS THE GAME OFF THE BR? INSTALL THAT SHIT NOOB!
Disk Running Dude: Listen, I got a 20GB drive and I already have Ridge Racer installed and downloaded a few TV shows and a movie from Sony. My HD is full.
Impatient Dude: ROFL 20GB tard pack you cheap ass noob. *disconnect*
Aex @ Oct 21st 2006 7:14AM
The HDD is user swappable, meaning you don't have to buy proprietary "formatting" (aka xbox 360) to upgrade your space.
But, let's not forget, everyone that posts comments on joystiq is a dick fanboy. So, "Installing" games to reduce load times is obviously a BAD thing. I mean, Hell, Sony COMPLETELY let everyone down with all the crappy games on the PS1 and the PS2. Why wouldn't they do it again with the PS3. Sony has a horrible track record with gaming libraries...
/sarcasm off
Rask @ Oct 21st 2006 7:18AM
Aex - Do you know what's involved in swapping the drive?
Will it require taking apart the PS3 to do or just opening a door, taking the pre-loaded drive out from it's mounting tray, putting in a new drive and putting the old one in?
One thing's for sure. It won't be as easy to take out as the 360's drive.
Aex @ Oct 21st 2006 7:22AM
I'm sure it may take some work, and the technically dis-inclined may have to deal with the 20gb that comes with their PS3, but it ain't going to take $100 for a 20gb drive you can pick up at circuit city for $30.
I'm guessing it'll be similar to the PS2 drive swapping, since Sony is saying it is user swappable, I doubt they would have it void your warranty to upgrade your space. Guess we'll find out in a month, huh.
Azerael @ Oct 21st 2006 7:34AM
This isn't a "good" or "bad" feature, it's a necessary feature; the Blu-Ray drive has a somewhat slow disk-reading speed compared to the DVD drives in the Xbox360, Wii and most modern PCs.
Aex @ Oct 21st 2006 8:01AM
A 9second reduction in load times doesn't sound like a "Necessary Feature" to me, it sounds more like a "Welcomed Option". I havn't really heard many stories about the PS3 being PLAGUED by loading times. I guess we'll find out in a month.
Ignatius @ Oct 21st 2006 8:16AM
Rofl... it had to fit those giant crabs on there.
Anonymouse Rep @ Oct 21st 2006 8:16AM
Alex - let's not forget, though, that if you just want additional storage for music, videos, or whatever on the 360, all you have to do is plug in a USB external drive and you're good to go. Not, I admit, game saves, but for regular storage space, sure. OR - you could simply stream from your media center PC via your home network. Don't have a media center PC yet? Fine - after the first of the year, buy a new machine with Vista Home Premium on it, and you'll have the OS, even if you don't have the TV tuner card.
As for the whole install thing, I see this as Ken trying to make the PS3 truly meet the EU definition of computer so that way Sony avoids the video game vs computer tax surcharge / fine. Of course, it's not like they'd actually PAY the fine, anyway.
cheese @ Oct 21st 2006 8:25AM
I think the point everyone has missed is that it does not say that you can play the game without the disc, and that the game is not only 4 gb. The game installs data that it needs to access at a faster rate *during* load times, in order to decrease said load times.
When you put Halo 2 into your xbox or 360, if you try to fire up a saved level it takes forever, but if you fiddle around in the menu for a while the game loads up quicker after you're done because the system is preloading that most recent save. By contrast, Genji gives you the ability to load all *load specific* data in one shot instead of having to fetch it from the blu-ray every time. Call it a SHORTCUT, if you will.
Eric Von Shpeel @ Oct 21st 2006 8:32AM
this feature is also available for Riiiiidge Racer 7. Its a great idea, I wish there was something like it for the 360 so i didnt have to put up with those "Now Loading" notices every 10 steps in Oblivion back when it was released
striderhayasa @ Oct 21st 2006 9:03AM
@ Pulse
Reading (and understanding the material) are fundamental.
---------------------------------------------
My problem with this is size of the HDD. I have about 100 GBs of free space on my PC that is going to take forever to fill because I don't download movies, games or music. Most of the work I do on my PC doesn't take up a large amount of space.
But on a PS3 where Sony WANTS you to download movies and videos and the like, these things take up GBs fast... movies especially. So if you're playing a few games and do the install option, download a few movies, download a few videos or music or transfer a playlist suddenly that 60 GB HDD isn't that big anymore not to mention the 20 GBHDD. Seagate even went on record and said that had a cool 100GB HDD for the 360 premium sku ready for launch but MS said no and grabbed the 20 GB HDD to cut costs.
Big mistake. When you're downloading content that clocks in at GBs worth of data you need as much storage as possible. 20 GBs isn't going to cut it and 60GBs is only marginally better. We'll see. Good thing I have this 40GB external drive....
Azurite @ Oct 21st 2006 9:06AM
I thought this was obvious since the standardization of the harddrive was confirmed as early as '05? The reason why not all games will use this is probably most because of multiplatform adaptability.
Moogle @ Oct 21st 2006 9:16AM
Congratulations Joystiq commenters, you've just proven that 90% of the people who read this site would whine if Kaz handed them a $100 bill.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope#The_slippery_slope_as_fallacy
The world will not end if games can be installed to console hard drives.
This is a good solution to a problem. Would the problem not exist if the developers didn't have the space available on the bd-rom? No one can say for sure. Development time spent on reducing size-on-disk is time not spent making the game run faster or creating better levels and gameplay. If they had to use a DVD, then in many cases you could expect every part of the world to be made up of the same pieces, rearranged (e.g. Oblivion). Size limits limit artistic vision and other resources.
The difference between caching and installing, by the way? One gives you a choice, the other takes the time and space that would have been spent installing without even asking you. If it does ask, it's no different than an install at all.
And for the record Azerael, the ps3 bluray has a constant load speed. It is slower than the 360 DVD's top speed, but faster than the slowest speed. So on the whole, they're about neck and neck. It'd be nice if the bluray's speed was in proportion to its disk size, but I'm betting you'll be able to buy much PS3s with faster drives in a year or two.
Intangible 360 @ Oct 21st 2006 9:24AM
I don't know if I would want to surrender that much hard disk space just for shorter load times.
SonyFunatic @ Oct 21st 2006 9:34AM
I excited about this game until I found out they had to drop the "real time weapon change" feature to get it to run in 1080p. Now I am not so excited about it because you only have one weapon the whole game.
Rasso @ Oct 21st 2006 9:36AM
Gamespot also mentioned this feature with Ridge Racer 7 on ON THE SPOT so i guess it aint somethin unique. Also for those X360 owners doesn't Oblivion do that and whenever it doenst work u gotta do that button combination at the title screen? Anyways, i think its a double edged sword. That way our load times are reduced, but then again, thr programmers might get too lazy into finding ways to reduce the load times knowing they can simply dump it on the hard drive
lordroba @ Oct 21st 2006 9:43AM
I think it's a nice idea for games that maybe normally take a minute+ to load, but not for a game that loads in 15 seconds. I mean, how bad is it actually waiting 15 seconds. I'm sure most of us here could figure out someting creative to do in that time span, like adjust yourself in your seat, pick your nose or w/e. I think if you have enought time to post/read a comment here, you can wait for a game to load. Another point I would like to make is, instead of developers making install files and whatnot, they should be focussing more on how to eliminate load times completly from the game (except for that intial bit at the begining). Shadow of Colossus did it pretty well and I can't remember for sure, but I think Tony Hawk's Underground had it too.
peeweejd @ Oct 21st 2006 10:00AM
that is awesome!
i wonder why the game is only 4GB though ;-) I guess it couldn't fit on a standard dvd.. I mean if giant crabs with weak spots to attack for massive damage can fit on 4GB, who needs blu-ray?
Icupnimpn2 @ Oct 21st 2006 10:08AM
peeweejd,
The game isn't 4GB, the cached data is 4GB. You'd still need to have the actual game disc in your PS3. I imagine video cut-scenes and the like would not be cached on your HDD, just game-related files that the machine needs to access quickly.
jojo29 @ Oct 21st 2006 10:15AM
"Noone's brought up this point so I will.
What happens when you get into a MP game with someone who doesn't have his game installed on his HDD?
That's right, you'll be in a holding pattern for 10-12 seconds while you wait for that guy to load his game.
Can you imagine that conversation over the voicechat?
impatient dude : WHO THE $%^$% RUNS THE GAME OFF THE BR? INSTALL THAT SHIT NOOB!
Disk Running Dude: Listen, I got a 20GB drive and I already have Ridge Racer installed and downloaded a few TV shows and a movie from Sony. My HD is full.
Impatient Dude: ROFL 20GB tard pack you cheap ass noob. *disconnect*"
Stupid ass comment. On the PC side of things different rigs run and load at different speeds, someone with an AMD Athlon 1800 and 512mb of RAM is going to load SLOWER than someone with an AMD Athlon 64 X2 with 2MB of RAM. Its been going around for YEARS. Just play a game of Warhammer Dawn of War and watch as your game loads faster than the 'tards' as you probably dont even own a pc or can afford, yet alone understand how one works. Fanyboys are so stupid
As for the Installing to get faster load times debacle. Thats a GOOD THING!! thats why SOny decided to include a HD for each version. If you dont want to install the game for quicker load times dont, its an OPTION. you MS bitches dont you remember how you were JUST saying how MS gives you OPTIONS( lol HD Add on ) so now when Sony gives you a CHOICE of OPTIONS all of sudden its a BAD idea?? GET THE FUCK OUT OF here with your non-sense