Nintendo's new Zelda most certainly doesn't fall flat
Don't mind my cranky colleague. His childhood was bleak. Devoid of happiness. Mine was full of sunshine. I played in the woods. I climbed trees. I played Zelda games.To think one could make such a fuss over the palette of a game we've been seeing screen shots of for years is itself curious. It brings back ugly memories of fanboys crying, "Celda!' ... except inverted. Instead of being too colorful, now it's not colorful enough. But complaining about the game's decidedly earth-tone infused aesthetic is akin to criticizing Schindler's List for being black and white ... you're welcome to that opinion, but it's an entirely subjective one devoid of any artistic allowance.
And the engine? Yeah, it's a Gamecube game. It's a Gamecube game running on hardware that is (especially in this case) a Gamecube. If we're going to be criticizing the game for not being made on another platform with superior hardware, then why wasn't Super Mario Bros. made for Super Nintendo ... those graphics were weak, amirite? Why wasn't Gears of War made for Xbox 720 ... it should totally be in virtual reality!
Legible signposts? I shouldn't even address this one. Is it ideal? Maybe not. But on an SD screen, is it really possible or even necessary to be able to read signs from afar? Can any gamer familiar with Zelda's gameplay conceits say this has ever been a deal breaker?
And the fishing? We've only used one rod (you get more later on) in one body of water. Based on earlier experiences playing the game, I had no such problems gauging the surface of the water. The pursuit isn't verisimilitude; this isn't a fishing simulator seeking to faithfully reproduce summers on the lake. It's a minigame; think WarioWare, not Pro Bass Dudes.
To judge a game's worth based simply on the system it's on and the inherent limitations therein suppresses a true appreciation of the entire medium. To extend worn-out movie metaphors to the gaming space: has Star Wars now been obviated that Firefly is out because, after all, the effects were much better, the film stock was clearer, the budget was higher. Do indie films, in their pursuit to deliver unique stories without spending considerable amounts on production, become immediately dismissable because they don't hold up on technological terms with their contemporaries?
In short: sure, Twilight Princess is a Gamecube game that's had Wii controls bolted on it. In our time with the title so far, I remain unconvinced that the Wiimote is the correct controller for this game (the sword swinging still doesn't come naturally). But, like every Zelda game to date, Twilight Princess offers the same brilliant core gameplay mechanics that have driven the series for the last twenty years. Now, the series' dependence on those core gameplay mechanics is another complaint entirely, and one I'd be far more sympathetic too ... even if I wouldn't carry that mantle myself.
[Editorial disclosure: my two cats are named Link and Zelda, so I may not be considered the most neutral party.]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Kyle @ Nov 12th 2006 1:26AM
THANK YOU
By the way interesting seeing a conflicting view with two separate posts!
DWells55 @ Nov 12th 2006 1:26AM
"Why wasn't Gears of War made for Xbox 720 ... it should totally be in virtual reality!"
What a ludicrous argument. The issue here is tha tthe Wii's premiere title is a GameCube game that's been ported. A proper analogy would be if Perfect Dark Zero for 360 was actually just the original Xbox version ported over. And you know what? People would be pissed. It's the same reason some of us are upset over Zelda. I know I am. Not to say I won't enjoy it, but it's a bit unfair.
However, Perfect Dark Zero absolutely sucked. So graphics aren't always the issue, which is why I pre-ordered a Wii.
Bob @ Nov 12th 2006 1:27AM
You go girl!
AwesomeSauce @ Nov 12th 2006 1:27AM
It bugs me how people say that the Wii is basically a Gamecube.
The Wii IS NOT a Gamecube, it is a Wii - something entirely different.
How about the PS3 or 360? They are MORE of an extension of their predecessors. It even states it in their names.
Zoob @ Nov 12th 2006 1:32AM
Well put, sir.
Al @ Nov 12th 2006 1:33AM
Unfortunately I commented in the previous post, so now I need to give you a post to make up for it.
Don't really have anything to comment about except 'Thank-You'
Cheers, the absolute DRAMA of the video game industry.
Miyamoto @ Nov 12th 2006 1:33AM
*psst* -- The signs are in Hylian, and thus illegible anyway. That's the big joke.
mrfong @ Nov 12th 2006 1:34AM
Reggie Fils-Aime:
“We made a conscious decision not to go down a path of pretty pictures. We wanted to drive gameplay and we’ve done it. When we see people play Wii Tennis or Wii Boxing with a big smile on their face we know that we’ve achieved our objectives. I look at a game like Zelda and I can see that is absolutely beautiful; we have that capability too. You can’t compare Wii to anything else, it’s doing it’s own thing and it’s doing it very well.”
DWells55 @ Nov 12th 2006 1:34AM
@4. Awesome Sauce
"It bugs me how people say that the Wii is basically a Gamecube.
The Wii IS NOT a Gamecube, it is a Wii - something entirely different.
How about the PS3 or 360? They are MORE of an extension of their predecessors. It even states it in their names."
-----------------------------------------------------
From a hardware standpoint, a Wii is an overclocked GameCube. You've got the same chips and a 50% higher clock speed on GPU and CPU. The PS3 and 360 on the other hand are entirely different chipsets (tri-core 3.2GHz PPC, the Cell) than their previous consoles. The 360 is capable of bringing games like Gears of War, with visuals that are so amazing that you are completely sucked into the atmosphere.
However, visuals are not everything, and if the Wii can prove that, we might see a whole new world of gaming.
reguy @ Nov 12th 2006 1:34AM
first off you are not a neutral party. second i like that you have a different opinion(OMG i understand now)
zelda is awesome but hearing a nintendo fanboy admit that its a gc game that got ported(to move units) and that the wiimote is not better because nintendo said so is refreshing.
all you ninty fans sure like it when the 360 and ps3 get ripped but when your console gets the same treatment the blogger must be a moron, idiot, stupid, jerk, asshole, right?
now please feel free to call me fat retarded and that i live with my mama. thats what you ninty fans do best.
vc @ Nov 12th 2006 1:35AM
Miyamoto: it wouldn't matter if they're in Greek. You can't make out any characters on them.
raid168 @ Nov 12th 2006 1:35AM
haha,nintendo loser!
ErbilT @ Nov 12th 2006 1:35AM
Exactly what I was thinking. However, it was entertaining reading the posts for VC's article. They all seemed like proper complaints for someone who has been spoiled by HD gaming, "such as muself", or has not taken the previous Zelda games into account.
Anyway, Gears of War beckons and I am still picking up a Wii in the future. The PS3, well, that can wait until the hype machine calms down a bit, but I am excited about MGS4 and the continuation of some Sony-only properties.
Monito @ Nov 12th 2006 1:36AM
Heh, good article.
Uh oh, is...is that a forest fire...?
No, it is an impending flame war between all the crazed Sony and Nintendo fanatics! Oh God, that Microsoft lune has a rocket launcher! Take cover!
JoeSchmo @ Nov 12th 2006 1:38AM
Heh heh...I told you, doesn't fall flat....
Opinions are one thing, but to say it falls flat would be to state it's impending doom. However in the article he states that it will inveritably sell like hotcakes.... HA!
Optimus Prime @ Nov 12th 2006 1:38AM
Heres why nintendo fambois are getting so much heat.
You guys are cherry picking what attributes you want to compare. ie. fanbois are constantly saying the wiimote is better than ps3/360 controllers... but, graphics.. oh, never mind.. graphics dont matter, end of story.
Well, it does. And releasing circa 2001 graphics on a next gen system blows... but, hey its ZTP and nintendo tells us that graphics dnt matter, so they must be right.
DeepSleeper @ Nov 12th 2006 1:40AM
I personally agree with both sides. The colors in this game annoy the hell out of me. I think bright greens and yellows and reds when I think of Zelda, not browns and grays.
It's not going to stop me from playing the game, I just won't enjoy it like I would a game in Wind Waker style.
Meg @ Nov 12th 2006 1:41AM
Regarding the signposts:
Again, they're all in a different f'cking lauguage. Either Anchient Hylian or Modern Hylain. (I am *not* one of these people who can tell the difference. Yes, they're are people who can).
The sighnposts are all completely legible and readible - if you can read Hylian that is.
TehSudds @ Nov 12th 2006 1:41AM
These two articles are a decent example of the type of adversarial commentary that this site needs more of.
One-sided blog opinions are fine to a point, but it's always more fun to read two editors with opposing viewpoints argue and bitch over them. Keep up the good work.
Mac User @ Nov 12th 2006 1:43AM
Any Tingle sightings yet?
superberg @ Nov 12th 2006 1:43AM
This is silly. Vlad posts a bash, you gush and then apologize for it. Just as you say " I may not be considered the most neutral party," we know Vlad isn't either. He just won't admit it, because he's a smug brat.
Jesus. Reading these two articles is like watching Rush Limbaugh and Al Franken debate. What a waste of my time.
sketcher @ Nov 12th 2006 1:45AM
It's good to see that you Joystiq bloggers are getting along.
qbix @ Nov 12th 2006 1:45AM
I don't see why you have to justify the opinion of your colleague. This is a blog, not a newspaper and writers are entitled to their opinions. Having said that, I think Vladimir could've been a bit more objective in his critique and have chosen a different title for his post. Personally I don't care for Zelda and I might get a Wii but not until there are enough games to justify the controller (we all know it's just a gamecube), but I digress.
Let's just see what non-biased gamers have to say about Zelda once they get their hands on it. Perhaps Vladimir has a point, perhaps his problems with the game are not a problem for most. In any case, gamers decide but at least we are given a fair warning to rent the game and then decide if it's worth 50 bucks.
Jr7891 @ Nov 12th 2006 1:47AM
Optimus Prime, The graphics in Zelda are FAR better than anything done in 2001.
Apply your logic in reverse to the PS3's premire games.
NBA 07? Pretty but it still plays like the first shootout.
Resistance? Standard alien shooter. Nothing new is done here. But, it sure is pretty.
Genji? We've had real time weapon switch, giant enemy crabs, and anient Japan in games for years. And the graphics on this don't look too good.
Mobile Suit Gundamn? Why?
Untold Legends? Haven't seen too much gameplay, but the graphics aren't very good.
Riemann Lebesgue @ Nov 12th 2006 1:48AM
The overwhelming flaw with Vlad's post is simple. Twilight Princess was not designed to be a Wii game in terms of graphics. It has always been a Gamecube game in that sense. They mapped it to Wii controls, but it was never intended to use the Wii's extra graphics ability, thus any statement about the Wii's graphics capability based on Twilight Princess is invalid. End of story. No room for discussion.
And for the record, when in the world did it become a bad thing for something to be more or less a faster and more efficient version of the same basic hardware? (The Wii is a "souped-up" Gamecube people are the ones I'm addressing here.) People who make dumb comments like that demonstrate that they have no clue about computers.
PhoenixJ @ Nov 12th 2006 1:49AM
<3
Shlomo @ Nov 12th 2006 1:51AM
On the note of graphics:
The Final Fantasy games have been re-release how many times? Often time they have the same graphics, and why? Becaue they're good games. They don't need awesome graphics with realtime blah blah gigaflops to be fun.
Now don't get me wrong, I can appreciate good graphics. After playing the PS3 at a Target I was really impressed with the graphics in the racing games!
Point: Graphics sure are cool, but truely timeless games won't need them. (Hopfully Twilight Princess will be one of them!)
reppy @ Nov 12th 2006 1:51AM
I just wonder how many more people would be complaining if Nintendo didn't port the new Zelda to the Wii? Would you prefer to wait 2-3 years for a Zelda title on the Wii?
DWells55 @ Nov 12th 2006 1:52AM
People, it's not:
"OMG Joystiq can't agree with each other!11"
"OMG JOystiq has to counter for their own opinions!11"
"OMG Joystiq posted somehting anti-Nintendo, bias!!!11"
"OMG whenever Joystiq posts anti-Nintendo they have to do a favorable one ot back it up, bias!!!111"
THey did somehting simple ehre - they presented both sides of the argument. You've been given two biased viewpoints here. Often this is better than a singular "unbiased" one, because it's not often something is truly unbiased. You've got two options here, pcik and choose what you want to believe from each.
I believe Vlad id correc tin that the Wii's lack of power is taking away from immersion and hurting gaming. However, I agree with Chris here that there is mroe to life than graphics. I really care about both issues however, so I bought a 360 on launch day (Wow... Gears is so beautiful) and I'm getting a Wii (Wow... Zelda looks like a blast to play). Form your own opinions people - it keeps you smart.
schtum @ Nov 12th 2006 1:53AM
WTF? Is this the new Joystiq business model?
1. Post a purposely flamebaiting post full of non-sequiturs and factual innacuracies to get everyone riled up.
2. Get on your knees and say "I'm sorry baby, I never meant to hurt you. Give me one more chance!"
3. Profit!
NO THANK YOU!
Dan @ Nov 12th 2006 1:54AM
That sure is a lot of metaphors for one post.
The ZeroCorpse @ Nov 12th 2006 1:56AM
Is it just me, or is that OTHER reviewer always a cranky, argumentative, unhappy camper who holds grudges and doesn't sway his opinion for anything?
The world really is in earth tones. That's why they're called "earth tones."
Burden @ Nov 12th 2006 1:57AM
Everyone is entitled to their own oppinion, even if that oppinion is extremely biased one way or another. I will say however that commenting on reading road signs, and a more mature color pallete, basically screams nintendo hater, I'm sorry to say. Not even commenting on the actual gameplay, but simply continuing to call the game not up to par, is simply un-professional for a game reviewing website.
kiko @ Nov 12th 2006 1:57AM
flip flop
flop
zacwight @ Nov 12th 2006 1:59AM
While I would say that I am not entirely unbiased, the "opposing view" that other person posted sounded like a childish rant from a mediocre writer. The title was misleading in the extreme that might allude to his opinion of the graphics; Flat= muted brown colors. Or he might not be that clever. Sounds like a high school honors kid learning how to write creative non-fiction. Poorly. Since that style is certainly inappropriate for any news source. Especially, as I said before, since it is poorly done.
You can't tell his position on the game. Sensationalistic crap masquerading as an informed opinion.
Ringworm @ Nov 12th 2006 2:02AM
If Miyamoto defected to Sony and developed the next Zelda exclusively for the PS3 then Sony fanboys would shut up and have nothing bad to say about the Zelda franchise. Sony copies everything Nintendo does and that's what makes PS3 gamers so pathetic and unoriginal. Nintendo gave birth to your console and now it's time for payback. Remember the DS Killa?
Ritz @ Nov 12th 2006 2:04AM
Man, I just finished watching an hour long video on Gamespot with the staff playing through the first hour or so of Twilight Princess. The colors look great, and there were very few complaints about the control at all. Some frustration with the fishing, but they quite enjoyed it.
Vlad has written some very poor articles regarding Wii previously, followed up with an equally poor argument trying to back up his first post. Something about complaints about Wii earning Nintendo a profit?
To say the game falls flat because you can't read signs is ridiculous, plain and simple. When you compare his thoughts to that metapreview Joystiq posted days ago, you can understand he stands very much alone, or at least with few friends in this regard.
Not like a negative post on Zelda is going to stop the masses from buying the game anyway and coming up with their own understanding of the game in 7 days...
But, you know. It's frustrating to read such a strange article.
Vasil @ Nov 12th 2006 2:04AM
My, what a relief!
Vasil @ Nov 12th 2006 2:05AM
Optimus Prime, YOU MADE IT!
:D-S-<
:D-S-<
:D-S-<
:D-S-
Riemann Lebesgue @ Nov 12th 2006 2:06AM
DWells,
You're welcome to feel that way about the Wii, but it's simply wrong to make comments about the Wii as a whole when the game being used to do so was designed for the Gamecube in terms of graphics. That's what Vlad did.
For the record, I'm not that impressed with this "pro" post either, because it fails to agressively go after the problems with Vlad's mini-review. Also, like Vlad, I don't think this writer has gotten very far in the game, but that is perhaps understandable given how long it's been available to them to play.
Riemann Lebesgue @ Nov 12th 2006 2:10AM
To clarify my last post: I meant that I thought this author hadn't been through much of the game, just like I thought Vlad hadn't spent much time with the game. My post could have been read to sound like I was saying that Vlad had said something regarding this mini-review and that I agreed with Vlad's opinion, so I apologize for the ambiguity.
Ndric @ Nov 12th 2006 2:11AM
Does Vlad feel smart for saying LOZ:TP isn't in HD?
Ringworm @ Nov 12th 2006 2:14AM
Optimus Prime still watches the transformers on his proven betamax format......
Count Zero @ Nov 12th 2006 2:17AM
Wow.. way to many are quick to jump on Joystiq as a whole. Oh, because one guy doesn't like this that means Joystiq doesn't like it.
It's amazing how personally some people are taking this too. It's almost as if they think that in the overall scheme of things they matter.
My god, it's a blog. It's free to look at. I really don't care if then next article that is posted on Joystiq is about a bloody Salmon. They can do whatever the hell they want. Don't like it? Don't read it.
Also, why to people feel the need to make huge long rants in the comments section about why they are wasting their time visiting Joystiq and such like that. Or how about they stopped reading at the beginning of the post. Seriously, it makes no sense. It just goes to prove John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory.
Count Zero @ Nov 12th 2006 2:17AM
Whoops, forgot to post the link...
href=http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2004-03-19&res=l
waffle @ Nov 12th 2006 2:18AM
I don't have a problem with different opinions, but I do have problems with a writer basically trolling his readers for attention and ad impressions.
Naota @ Nov 12th 2006 2:19AM
I posted this on the other one that Vlad put up, but I doubt that many people will end up reading it, so I'll drop it here too.
Simply put people this is a matter of opinion. He's entitled to his opinion. I, as well as a good deal of people on this site, believe that he is quite biased with his review. If he had anything really substansive about this game that would classify it as a flop then I'd take note of it, but of course since I am a Nintendo fanboy, albeit not much of one, I'll still pick up a copy of TP.
What he has to say about comparing the game with ps2/xbox games is complete stupidity. You cant just cut it down to one generation. To do that would mean to say that Super Mario 64 is a great Mario game because it was the only fully 3d Mario game when the PS1, N64 and Saturn were competing. What you have to do when reviewing is to compare the games you review to others of its type from all consoles, and previous versions of it.What I believe is is that for what it is, The Legend of Zelda the Twilight Princess is a very good looking game. It obviously does not have anywhere near the poly count of xbox360 or ps3 games, but it is unfair to judge it on graphics alone, especially since Genji is supposedly a rather bland game on the PS3 where you strike the giant enemy crab for massive dammage (sorry sony guys, i couldn't help myself).
What I'm trying to say here is that Vlad really isn't the kind of guy who should be reviewing games based on graphics alone because beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
mark @ Nov 12th 2006 2:21AM
"A proper analogy would be if Perfect Dark Zero for 360 was actually just the original Xbox version ported over. And you know what? People would be pissed."
LOL funny you mention that -- it started as a gamecube game, then an xbox game. :O
NDstruct @ Nov 12th 2006 2:21AM
I don't know what Vlad has against nintendo, maybe as an associate of his you can shed some light on the subject. I can only think of a few scenarios that may have caused this strong a bias against nintendo. The first. His uncle used to dress up as mario and touch him in his bathing suit area. Second, his mother was killed on a construction site by a giant ape throwing barrels. Third, and most likely of the three, his girlfriend who couldn't stand it when he would call himself "Rad Vlad" while in the sack, left him for a real man, Fox McCloud. I urge you to help him seek out counseling so he can finally forgive Nintendo...and his uncle.
Kincyr @ Nov 12th 2006 2:24AM
heh, cats named Link and Zelda