Redikulus!

Does this mean we could finally see the legality of terms of service agreements in decided by a court?

According to some people, the only fun in certain MMORPGS is when you're at max level, and with a lot of 'em, it takes lots of time. What about those people that don't have the time on their hands, but still want to experience the joys of higher levels WITHOUT buying an account or any other methods? I, personally, would like to have something that would help me along the way. Now for gold farming, that is bad, of course, but if there was a certain way to just include leveling then that would be okay IMO.

Lame. Never tried Glider but I definitely would if I needed a new character and felt like I wouldn't be caught.

If you've played WoW, you know this comment is bogus:

"Does it nullify the ultimate point of experiencing the game? Yes."

People level a character and try to get into endgame. No one wants to level 1-60 again, because the toon is USELESS and NO LONGER FUN TO PLAY to the majority of us for 59 of those 60 levels. Glider wouldn't exist if Blizzard's game didn't create a demand for it.

In many ways the game is a work of genius, and I really enjoy raiding with my guild, but WoW lacks a lot of what role playing games were built on (the potential for creativity and customization, truly unique experiences, that kinda thing). Maybe people would be more open to reliving the 1-60 journey if Blizzard took this into consideration.

"2. Does this mean we could finally see the legality of terms of service agreements in decided by a court?"

No, the 3 bliz reps didn't go to the house and say "we hereby deem that you're breaking our terms of service and therefore relinquish your right to play WoW. You are teh banned." Blizzard can ban people all day long who use this software, these developers are just making a preemptive strike to ensure that they can distribute their software. It doesn't really have much to do with the EULA.

That being said, this is the first lawsuit ever that I'm actually on blizzard's side for.

#3 - Play Guild Wars.

"#3 - Play Guild Wars."
Quoted for truth. It takes no time at all to reach the level cap... from then on, it's all about skill and strategy. Having almost no grinding necessary + the fact that it costs nothing monthly makes me, a broke college student with no free time, very happy.

It would be so funny if Glider actually won this case.

"Free level 60s for everyone! *generic mob hurray*"

Heck, I might even go back to playing WoW if they won. But then again, I've been through the game already and there wouldn't be much to do.

easy win for Blizz. this is comedy.

"According to some people, the only fun in certain MMORPGS is when you're at max level"

If you don't want to take the time (what, two weeks?) to level to sixty, perhaps you shouldn't play the game. I don't think Blizzard would mind, they have almost seven million subscribers, after all. :(

Honestly, if you truely think that because a couple thousand lazy bastards who don't want to level a character and therefore use WoW Glider equates to a "demand" then you are sadly mistaken.

"Does it nullify the ultimate point of experiencing the game? Yes. Does it assist cheaters? Absolutely. Is it wrong to create and sell a product that helps cheating? That remains to be seen."
Is it wrong to create and sell a game that can be 'played' by an automated program that simply presses buttons? That remains to be seen. :P

FINALLY WoW's terms of use is finally being tried in court. They cancelled my account because i was doing something "Contrary to the 'essence' of World of Warcraft". That's so vague they could ban your account for anything.
Read: Interstate Commerce Clause in the Constitution and Article 6, "elastic clause". It's getting to the point now that the US is claiming the right to regulate voting because the production of voting machines involves interstate commerce.
Judicial system needs to cage these beasts

Uh...it's their game, they get to make the rules. Just like Joystiq could remove anyone's comments if they wanted to. Unless you own all the pieces of an operation, you have to play by the owner's rules.

The big issue that will be addressed is the DMCA angle. I don't see a court stepping in and telling a company how to run a video game. The DMCA thing will come in as Glider is made specifically for WoW. There is no other use. As it cannot function (and thus make money for it's creators) without WoW, I think an easy argument can be made that the Glider creators are profitting from WoW.

In terms of the actual game, if you aren't willing to play a class to level 60, you don't need to be playing, period. I already run into enough warriors that don't know how to tank and hold aggro, priests that have no clue how to heal, hunters that don't use their CC methods, and warlocks that have to re-learn how to summon another player EVERY time they attempt it. Consider levels 1-59 training for level 60 and beyond. Besides, the low levels are the meat of the game. If you don't enjoy that, please for the love of Pete realize that you do NOT have to play WoW. You CAN play something else. If you log on and think "I'm bored" it is time to move on.

Re:4. Holy crap, I had fun playing from 1-60. So much so, I did again and again with a few different classes/races. I didn't realise I was playing the game wrong!

Re: "If you don't want to take the time (what, two weeks?)"

Um, what? Two to three weeks? Sorry, in my life I unfortunately need to find time to do small things like eat, sleep and go to work.

I actually play characters from 1-60 over and over. That's what I like.

And Stevo, ANY game can be played by a computer program. A simple FPS bot will always beat just about any human.

@15.

2-3 weeks is a generous time to get to level 60, if you aren't online once or twice a week for an hour each time. There are people that can get to 60 in under a week. If it takes you over a month to hit the level cap, you should go back to single player Final Fantasy games.

@17.

Sure, if you have no life. Some people actually spend time doing things besides sitting around power-leveling.

@Skillcoil

The fastest time to 60 was ~4 days 20 hours.

For a casual player who has 4 or less hours to spend on WoW a night it will take about a month or more to reach level cap. Thats assuming they can level as fast as it has ever been done, which is of course impossible. A more practical expectation would be 2+ months.

Please take your dim witted comments to the cesspool that is the WoW community forums.

Bot programs are for cheaters, alright. The people who play the game for months deserve to be called level 60, not the people that leave a bot program on while they surf Joystiq articles. If you don't want to play the game don't pay for it; it's really that simple.

Also, I'm sure the lot of you enjoyed spending 1000+ hours with your characters only to hear pre-teens call them 'toons'. People spend huge chunks of their lives using World of Warcraft and some still refer to these characters they have built as 'toons'.

Think about how sad and pathetic that really is.

I think the major misunderstanding here is that while people are quoting days or a week or two to level to 60, they're quoting the /played time, NOT irl time. /played is only the time actually logged into that character.

You can have the game for half a year or more before you hit 60, but your /played time shouldn't be more than 2 weeks, tops.

WoW ---
that says it all. Its there game so they can do what they want with it. My question is, if I pay for software what should be the limits of my use? I completly disagree with unattended macroing/scripting in game, although I would like to see Blizzard come out with a version of the game that would allow some of us to create our own server and make our own rules, at which point if you like unattended macroing you could do, and if you don't you simply play on the servers that dont allow it like I do. Its Win Win Blizzard makes more money and those of us who can't stand scripting don't have to deal with it.

is there really anything honorable about sitting around and doing something a computer can do for you? is there a real purity to the game from doing it? i always believed that the real reason behind those mmos was the mmo part. griding againts goblins for hours at a time doesn't really seem like the point. what's more, i hear a lot of post 60ers saying that guild managing and stuff is the real metagame everybody's after. there's a reason it's called the grind.

i've never played wow, and i actually make fun of my friends if they even mention playing wow, so i've nothing vested in using a bot to level me. i just think that blizzard knows it's game takes a long time for people to reach lvl 60 because if they did it any faster, they'd find out how empty the game really is as a solo experience, and thuse lose those 7 mil accounts. i mean, how many of those accounts are above 60 and how many are below? it's a money issue for them, not an honor issue for you, the consumer.

Wow, somebody actually mentioned the elastic clause of the constitution in the comments! Its not relevant, but your still get cred. Need to study more law and play less WoW.

Beside DMCA issues, this is a contracts case: can MDY benefit by inducing Wow players to breach their contract with Blizzard. Blizzard's interest must be balanced with freedom of commerce. And since Blizzard controls the terms and conditional unilaterally, they can always modify them to make 3rd parties induce breach. So Blizzard is weak there. But I suspect not weak enough to lose with the best lawyers money can hire.

As for DMCA, thats a very counterintuitive law and Vivendi might just put a cap on MDY with it.

MDY's injunction is largely a publicity stunt to gain leverage in negotiations with Vivendi. It will work. MDY might be a whole lot richer very soon and wont have to even peddle their bot anymore. Just work on their tans in the Arizona desert. Good deal all around. Except gamers are back to the grind.

When the joystiq article states this program works without any hacks, well, that's just wrong.

How could a bot program function merely by inputting mouse and keyboard clicks? It would be running blind for starters, it couldn't loot the monsters it kills because it wouldn't know where the bodies are, and in fact it couldn't even FIND the monsters to begin with other than by - ahem - blind luck.

No, in order to "see", it has to read memory belonging to the WoW process, and this, ladies and gentlemen, surely is the very definition of hackery.

Get your damn facts right Ross! BLIZZARD is sueing Glider, not the other way around! jeese

I have one point to make.

Radar detectors are legal...

Anticrawl

Not everyone who uses a bot is an evil gold farmer looking to destabilize your server's economy or powerlevel a character to 60 to play with as their main.

I had a bot that I used to farm items for my guild (which was an end-game raiding guild) such as herbs and librams; gold for myself to pay for equipment repairs, and cloth for bandages and faction for myself and other guildmates.

I was able to enjoy WOW again thanks to Glider; I didn't have to spend my weekend farming gold, or items to sell on the Auction House so I could keep affording to pay repair bills incurred by wipes on endgame content.

I'm in the Navy and I don't have the luxury of being able to play as much as I want; I have to take what I can get, when I can get it... should I be denied endgame raiding because using a bot is the only way I can afford it? Is it "wrong" to use a bot to help out my guild by giving others gold for repairs or items and potions?

I don't know why otherwise intelligent people have so much trouble with simple logic. Take the arguments to the extreme, and see where you end up. Take Blizzard's argument to the extreme, and we all have to play according to their vision. OK, I can envision that. Restrictive, but not stupid.
Now take the "I can't enjoy the game without it playing itself, therefor it's OK for the game to play itself". Why stop at level 60? How about the real fun begins once you're geared out in Tier 1? Geared out in Tier 2? How about upcoming Tier 3? Is the real fun once you've accumulated every single piece of gear you could ever want, because it's all about PvP? Gee, I guess the entire leveling and finding equipment part of the game, that little, teeny unimportant piece, shuold just be skipped so that we can all have the real enjoyment of being equally powerful from the get go.
Therefor, by exactly the same argument the pro-botters are setting forth, a hack which gives you level 60 + any gear you want is perfectly acceptable. Now, you may actually believe that; in which case you might want to consider PLAYING A DIFFERENT GAME BECAUSE LEVELING AND GEARING UP IS THE VERY SOUL OF THE MMORPG EXPERIENCE. Still, your strange preferences are your own business, and at least you know where you stand.
But OTOH if you do not believe that a hack giving max everything is fair and fun, in the interest of not sounding like an idiot, you might want to refrain from using an argument that only makes sense if you do.

Blizzard have lost control of the game anyway. Too many people are playing, too much is going on for them to be able to keep a firm hold on what goes on, and that is why I quit WoW. I was being harrassed by a group of players consistently, day in day out, I made numerous complaints to Blizzard, E-Mails galore and they did nothing: Why? Because they could do nothing, they can't even uphold their own rules 'No harrassment'. If people want to farm, they will, and they will get away with it. If people want to run Bots, they will because they can and do get away with it. Blizzard simply does not have enough time nor the staff to 'police' their own product. There are numerous problems in-game among the players and only handfulls are dealt with whilst many others run riot. I think the game is good, but Blizzards total apathetic, indifferent attitude towards their customers (due to having the largest player base of any MMO and subsequently being rich?) led me to quit in disgust.

If they lose the suit, it's fine by me.

Wow is boring once you hit 60.

the most fun is 1-59.

60 is where the game ends.

raids are the most boring gameplay mechanic ever devised. reducing every class to a few basic functions. you might as well be on autopilot once you start raiding.

#12, I fail to see how the Commerce Clause is at all implicated in this case. Generally, a civil action for breaching a EULA is governed by common law contract principles. When you buy software, you do not "own" the software any more than you "own" an amusement park that you visit. If you breach a term of the contract, the other contracting party can revoke your license if you signed a contract saying that they can do so. There is nothing unconscionable or against public policy in this principle. If you don't like the terms, you can return the software and get your money back.

Nor is the source of a cause of action under the DMCA to be found in Commerce Clause principles. Congress has plenary power to enact copyright legislation, see A.II Section 8 cl. 8. In any case, Commerce power applies to enacting legislation, not bringing civil actions in federal or state courts.

I likewise fail to see what about Article VI has any relevance to this issue - maybe you can clarify for me?

Against their Terms of Service? So what! Who said the developers have even played wow (and so wont have an agreement to agree to).

If all it does is mimic key presses and mouse movements, I fail to see how this is against the dmca. Its a really simple thing to do, and you can do it to any application (just like with a lot of installers you can "click" on the disabled "Next" buttons on installers when you dont agree with the license; license says you are accepting if you click next? I didn't agree with the license in the first place!!)

if you dont work your butt off like the rest of us, going from 1 - 60 the CORRECT INTENDED WAY (you at the keyboard doing it yourself) then you dont deserve the gold, the levels the skills, any of it. the system is designed to be played by humans, not robots.

seriously, if i have an epic lvl 60 that i earned, i deserve the respect i get when im walking through town showing off tier 3 armor and epic mount. when theres 50 other people wearing the same armor, who didnt work for years like me, THEY CHEAPEN MY GAME! how can you not see that they ruin the game for everyone!

I'm just saying that the United States has the right to regulate anything that involves interstate trade, even if it means interfering with privately owned businesses (Read: Charles River Bridge Case, and the Americans with Disabilities Act, where even private companies HAVE to accommodate cripples). If WoW Glider makes a good enough case in court, the WoW TOA could be demanded to be clarified, therefore removing Blizzard's right to ban things just because they feel like it.

ummm are we not forgetting a small thing here. I know we can argue about gameplay mechanics and who likes what for hours here but aren't we missing a different point. That is that these guys are charging 25 dollars and making money that they don't deserve. To bring up an example, I sneak 200 churros into disneyland and sell them for 3 bucks instead of the normal 5 bucks. Are the people who brought those churro's happy ... YES. But it's still a damn cheap way to make money and disneyland's gonna do whatever they can within law to get my ass on a platter. Let's compare it to me taking those same churros and giving em out to people for free. Those people that get churro's are still gonna be happy, and although disney's may be pissed they are not gonna go out of their way to get me. What I am trying to say is that we can argue for hours about gameplay mechanic's, but lets change the question for a moment. Is it okay for people to make money off a game they didn't even create? Basically it's like those people who mine gold (with the help of bots) and sell it for real money. Just answer that question, and you might be closer to why blizzard does the things it does.

Anyway thats just my angle on the whole matter who know's maybe im completely off.

MDY made a product of tangable value so wether they give it away free or make money off of it is irrelavent. The best Blizzard can do is ban people using the program for violating the terms of service. It not really any different than people who buy radar detecting/jamming devices so that they can speed or prople who buy a vcr to tape their favorite episode of popular tv show. Speeding is still illegal and so is the recording of someone elses copyrighted material but the courts deem the fair and proper use of those devices outweigh the unlegit uses of those devices. In the end any parties who recieve legit damages still have legal recourses against guilty parties. I don't think Blizzard has any right to tell another corporation what software they can and cannot make. They can either find a way to identify and start banning users or alter their software to make it incompatible with the Glider software.

Quoted:
"According to some people, the only fun in certain MMORPGS is when you're at max level, and with a lot of 'em, it takes lots of time. What about those people that don't have the time on their hands, but still want to experience the joys of higher levels WITHOUT buying an account or any other methods? I, personally, would like to have something that would help me along the way. Now for gold farming, that is bad, of course, but if there was a certain way to just include leveling then that would be okay IMO."

Those people should play guild wars, where you can choose to start endgame from the beginning rather than leveling you character.

MDY wants to be able to sell their software.

YOU buy it, YOU use it, YOU violate terms of service, YOU get banned.

Just like guns. You use it unethically, you get jailed.

I think Blizzard doesn't have the resources to detect and stop people from using it, hence the threats.

Only way I see blizzard winning this one is DMCA, but that'd be technical, and probably using the reverse engineering or breaking encryption clauses.

I hope glider wins. Blizzard should not be able to control everything.

I'm a little late to the party. Tough.

Wow, a lot of folks here seriously don't know how to read. Glider's creator isn't trying to sue for damages, he isn't trying to sue to force Blizzard to allow people to bot, he's barely even suing at all. He's asking the court to declare that selling a program which doesn't modify or use* the content of WoW in any way doesn't constitute *copyright infringement.*

I don't bot, but I've looked at the Glider forums and seen a vast number of them interpret the suit the same way many of you folks are: suing for a right to bot, blah blah blah. And here I thought such lack of comprehension was wilfull, based on an ulterior motive. Maybe it's just that nobody knows how to read for comprehension anymore...

Oh and the churro analogy is absolutely horrible. It isn't even remotely accurate. A much better way to encapsulate this, using churros, would be to say that the Glider-guy is creating a product that helps people sneak food into the movies when they're 'supposed' to spend way-too-much for theater-food. See, food isn't illegal; it's just that bringing it into the movies is against *the theater's* rules. But could you imagine a theater trying to call the cops on you for sneaking in a soda?

Further, could you imagine the theather claiming you had infringed their copyright by bringing food into the theater?**

Sound ridiculous? That's pretty much what Blizzard is saying. Distance yourself from your emotional connection to it and you'll see it's pretty ludicrious, hate botters or not.***

*(and by which I mean there is no Blizz-copyrighted content in Glider's promotional material, interface, etc- it's just a bunch of text. Zero taurens are visible, etc.)

**let's just assume the theater also produces the food, for the sake of not splitting hairs

***and boy do I hate botters. but my personal feelings don't change the fact that blizzard is clearly overreaching the law in an attempt to intimidate a problem they can't solve into ceasing its own existence voluntarily.

"seriously, if i have an epic lvl 60 that i earned, i deserve the respect i get when im walking through town showing off tier 3 armor and epic mount. when theres 50 other people wearing the same armor, who didnt work for years like me, THEY CHEAPEN MY GAME! how can you not see that they ruin the game for everyone!"

Right. Boy does that suck. So, you must be livid about the new greens in Burning Crusade (30 spell damage 30 stamina level 62 *craftable* green boots, anyone?), and absolutely infuriated by how easy it is to get pvp gear in 2.0??

Because a whole bunch of people *busted their butts* HARDCORE to get AQ40/Naxx/Grand Marshall gear in the old system, and now Blizzard is going to be handing it out like candy because "it isn't fair to the casuals."

So using your own logic, this is different from and more acceptable than botting *how*, exactly?

I think Blizzard is saying MDY is making money based on Blizzard's product. From what I have read here and elsewhere, they're correct many people buy their software for 25 bucks. MDY produced a product called WoW Glider... it is SPECIFICALLY for use with the program World of Warcraft. MDY is selling their software and make profit from a program that runs in conjunction with WoW. They have to pay Blizzard to be able to do that or have some agreement with them. I'm no lawyer, but I can see that without WoW MDY would not have WoW Glider and wouldn't be making money off of it. If they did the same for Guild Wars or DDO and called it DDO Glider or Guild Wars Glider it would STILL be illegal. They are profiting off of Blizzard's work (which resulted in MDY's own product to work off of WoW). Bottomline, MDY would not be making money with a program called WoW Glider if WoW didn't exist. They have to either pay Blizzard or they have to selling the software (although I suppose they could give it away for free if they want, but that's not what MDY wants).

Unattended macroing is absolutly against Blizzards Terms of Service. The real question should be if you buy a software product like WOW what limits should the user be allowed to manipulate. Ultimatly, WoW knows what WoW wants. I think assist macroing for undressing / dressing into different gear or changing weapons or counting resources that you dont want to waist an action bar button would be a good addition to the game but I completly disagree with unattended macroing in WoW, I however do think that WoW should open the game in terms of usage so that people could purchase the right to make there own servers at which sights they could make there own rules and allow or disallow any rule they wished.

I certainly agree that the most fun in the game is had at low levels gradually working your way up. But the facts are that so many of Blizzard's quests and character development involve an unhealthy amount of grinding and time spent in front of the computer. Reputation going up at 5 points a kill (when you need 2000), 750 gp for lvl 60 riding skill, or just simply the amount of mobs you have to kill to collect a large amount of items. It is impossible to play the game for moderate amounts of time and make progress. 1-60 takes at least 100 hours playtime. 90000 honor points takes 180 hours to achieve! Yes 360 AV visits at 30 mins average each and about 250 honor. At a reasonable amount of playtime per week (3-4 hours) this would take 70 weeks! It makes me laugh reading how people think this amount of time spent on the game equates to something that should be respected! That people running around stacked with epic gear have really "earned" it with all their "hard" work, especially as they've done it in 2 months or less. In truth we should be saying "How Sad" or perhaps taking a moral stand against Blizzard for this drug pushing by another name! When I play a game I have an expectation that I can achieve and complete the objectives in a reasonable amount of time. It's a game after all, I'm paying for it and it should be fun. The truth is that all these game playing objectives are deliberately excessive in their time to achieve them so that the Blizzard money laundering operation can maximize subscriptions. What I wonder is the real reason Blizzard is so precious about BOT programs and anything that takes away from the tedious repetitiveness of the game and also saves our eyes, our health and social life? Simply that we might spend less time on the game and move on to something else sooner.