Joystiq asks: should Penny Arcade be in the webcomic poll?
by Ross Miller 
{ Dec 6th 2006 at 9:25PM }
Since its inception just over a year ago, the Weekly Webcomic Wrapup has always had issues with Penny Arcade's inclusion. We have heard both sides of the argument, both for and against their use in the webcomic poll, and we always decide to keep them in the running -- 'tis but a silly poll, anyways.However, we have talked with an unlikely proponent for possibly keeping comic out of the weekly poll: Gabe from Penny Arcade.On Tuesday, Gabe left a comment on our WWW post suggesting that they're not a webcomic as much as they are "game news and opinion site. Part of it is a news post and part of it is a comic strip." Speaking more on the subject with Joystiq, Gabe (also known as Mike Krahulik, shh) told us that "if you feel like people are voting for PA just because it's PA and that's not what you want then feel free to take us out of the equation."
We want to be able showcase as many game-related webomics as possible, big and small, and as long as that is accomplished then we don't care. However, after Gabe's response we decided to reopen the debate: is Penny Arcade hurting the smaller comics on the poll -- or, more importantly, is Penny Arcade even classified as a webcomic, seeing as their news posts / blog entries are equally as important? It's important to note that, despite PA's inclusion, it does not always finish in the top three for the weekly wrapups.
Gabe's response to Joystiq has been reprinted, with permission, after the break. Let us know how you feel on the subject.
Also I don't want it to cause a problem with your voting system. If you feel like people are voting for PA just because it's PA and that's not what you want then feel free to take us out of the equation. If our spot can go to some other gaming comic that could use the attention then by all means do it. If you can showcase some strips each week that people may not have heard of and cut out a bunch of drama by removing us then it sounds like that's the right move.
It's great to see what people think of the comic and it's important to get that feedback. We've been doing this eight years though and we realised a long time ago that you can't please everyone. All you can do is make a comic that you think is funny and hope other people agree.
[Image credit]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
SergeXIII @ Dec 6th 2006 11:26PM
Well if you want to give a wider variety of web comics(popularity wise) an equal chance, maybe you should split up the polls. You know, like a Heavy Weight Division, Medium Weight, Light Weight, ect.
Oh, and:
http://gnerds.comicgenesis.com/
don't mind me plugging my comic.
Steve Napierski @ Dec 6th 2006 9:34PM
Penny Arcade is the ultimate gaming webcomic. When you think of gaming inspired strips and news, its Penny Arcade. If people vote for it, it could be because it the most popular webcomic on the net. But just because of this, that doesn't mean that they always win the wrapups. Overall, I feel people vote for the best... the people who complain more than likely aren't please with the outcome.
I say keep Penny Arcade in the wrapups.
CJC @ Dec 6th 2006 10:35PM
I'm going to have to say you should keep PA out. It's a great comic, but none of the others even have chance.
To that effect, maybe consider getting rid of VG Cats too.
davarino @ Dec 6th 2006 9:38PM
i dont mind, i do think its a bit silly how people dont even give the other comics a chance an always just choose pa, who are they trying to prove themselves too?
but i rekon that even with people blindly picking pa over the others, the majority of the readers do vote properley so it kinda works out in the end. and hey the voters shouldnt be critisised if they drew a really good strip for that week. so i say leave em in, your not hurting anybody an its all for fun
Vlad Bien-Aimé @ Dec 6th 2006 9:38PM
The fact that there is a large number of people who vote for PA without even looking at other comics out there is enough to remove PA from the poll.
Why not link to PA but not have it as a poll option? That way you can include it without it skewing the results.
Nushio @ Dec 6th 2006 10:10PM
I agree with Steve (I love your comics btw!)
I read Fanboys, Dueling analogs, 8Bit, VGCats, PA and CAD comics regularly, and vote for the one that makes me laugh, or at least snicker a bit.
I always read through little gamers and the rest once they're posted on the poll to see what'd I miss.
The fact that PA doesnt always win says a lot, it means that it isnt "that huge of a factor" among other "smaller" webcomics, like DA or Fanboys, that haven't gotten some sort of blind cult following...
Artimus @ Dec 6th 2006 9:41PM
I think a lot of people vote for PA just because it's PA (VG Cats gets this same effect and the more common comics almost always do the best). But the notion that their news posts are equal to their comics...nah. I think their posts can be considered important, but their comic does not need the news article in 99.9% of the cases. I think, perhaps, the comic should be left out when it's subpar (which isn't very often) but otherwise if people are going to vote for it just because it's cool...whatever. That's their right, I guess.
Frank Morrison @ Dec 6th 2006 10:13PM
Well... to take them out would be thoroughly unfair to the effort and skill that the PA guys put into their craft.
But at the same time... I agree with Gabe's opinion that people might just be voting for them sheerly because of who they are... even though most of their stuff is remarkable (either writing, or graphically).
So what's the best way out? Simple. Give them a "Lifetime Acheivement Award" and then state that it would be catagorically wrong of you to continue to feature PA in such polls... as they have proven themselves SO good, that its just best for all parties involved to give their space over to other entrants.
Tacoman @ Dec 6th 2006 9:48PM
A lot of the other comics in the poll aren't very funny/insightful in my experience, and that tends to push voters towards more tried-and-true entries like PA or VGC. Last week's poll was probably the most well-balanced I had seen, but that quality is wholy up to the authors. If Penny Arcade is putting out the most irreverent comic in the poll there's no reason we shouldn't be allowed to vote for them. They're number 1 in the game for a reason: consistancy.
RevJonathan @ Dec 6th 2006 10:05PM
I think it should stay. I rarely read thier newspost because if I wanted to know about what they have to say, I probably have already read about it on my google homepage. The comic should stay in the wrapup.
Thomas Quinn @ Dec 6th 2006 10:19PM
That they have a cult following is no reason to leave them out of the polls. It's not a coincidence that they are beloved by the community; their newsposts and comics are funny and smart. I say leave them in.
Cabcru @ Dec 6th 2006 9:49PM
I too am psychic and know that people only pick PA because it is PA. Oh yes.
Or maybe they just prefer it over the half-assed, badly drawn knob-gags that pass as webcomics these days. I have found a neat trick though - if you hold a finger out horizontally near your monitor so that it blocks the words "Penny Arcade" at the top of the results, someone else wins! In fact, you can keep doing that with your other digits until the one you thought deserved to win is the only name present! It's ace!
blakepro @ Dec 7th 2006 12:33AM
Just because someone popular runs for office, (IM LOOKING AT YOU ARNOLD IN CALIFORNIA!!) Doesent mean they should be banned from the vote. People sometimes vote for things because of popularity, it happens! BUT it does not mean they should be banned from being voted upon.
I like the web comic voting post because its my one stop access to all the greatest game comics on the net. THE MORE THE BETTER! who cares whats popular and what is not. Its just for fun anyway... And we've seen the "underdog" win plenty of times any way..
MrTyzik @ Dec 6th 2006 9:58PM
While I greatly enjoy their news and comics I have only voted for them a few times as the best game-related comic in the Joystiq poll. It is obvious that people do vote for them "just because" but this is no reason to reject them. Do not include them if the comic is not game-related. Otherwise, leave them in.
LK @ Dec 6th 2006 10:07PM
I just have to say PA is hardly that "games news and opinion site" as Joystiq describes it. PA is just another gaming blog with a comic strip that happens to be popular.
Chrysis @ Dec 6th 2006 10:09PM
This is a really interesting topic and I'm glad I get to chip in! Personaly I have so much respect for PA, It's the comic that inspired us to rip them off as best as we can ;) and Gabe's art is the reason I started drawing again in the first place.
I think they should stay in the pole. Sure some people vote for them without even thinking but I think these people are a minority and I can honestly say that the vast majority of polls result in the best comic winning. Hell, once I voted for PA over my own strip; theirs was so good it circumvented my own bias, *tips hat*
Nick @ Dec 6th 2006 10:01PM
Why not just have a monthly or bimonthly limit, like elections here: if you win one week, you're put in a 'winner's circle' for a month, so your strip is featured for the next three weeks in that winner's circle, but not included on the 'vote on' list. That way you'd have real variety, and kids would have to read a few strips each week, rather than just voting blindly. After three weeks in the winner's circle, your shot back into regular circulation. It'll give anyone a chance, but also allow greats like PA to be recognized as such.
What do you think?
gegfoo @ Dec 6th 2006 10:05PM
I'll de-lurk here to pitch my two cents.
Artificial suppression of competition never helps a field (in the beginning, no one was pushing the Lockhorns off the page to make room for Dilbert). Keep any and all comics you think are relevant (such as Penny Arcade, since that is the question).
If the 'stiq does not like feeling that the polls are repeatedly skewed, then ditch the polls and keep the weekly roundup of links. I, for one, always enjoy reading each comic listed, even though I never vote. Readers could still voice their vote in the comments (or via digg) if they want a pissing match.
And since I'm de-lurking, are the mobile webpages ever going to be fixed (i.e., seeing comments, browsing full version for prior posts)?
Yardarm51 @ Dec 6th 2006 10:06PM
Keep them in. I think the majority of Joystiq readers read the full slate of comics each week. There are folks who simply vote for PA without looking at any of the others. The same thing happens any time you have a poll with the three consoles on there. Fanboyism is endemic to games culture and cannot be rooted out. Nor should it be. There are far too many funny comments coming out of fanboys` mouths to shut them up.
otakucode @ Dec 6th 2006 10:28PM
Yes they should be in it. Penny Arcade is a webcomic, and a good one at that. Punishing them with exclusion because they have achieved success is the most petty thing you could do. If another webcomic starts winning often, will you kick them out as well?
eight @ Dec 6th 2006 10:10PM
I think the biggest point for including them is that they don't always finish in the top 3. Since they don't always finish in the top 3 then they're not skewing results so might as well keep them included. It doesnt bother me. I read penny acrade, (comic and news post) but it doesn't automaticly get my vote every week. The comic that actually makes me laugh out loud gets my vote.
Nmaster @ Dec 6th 2006 10:22PM
I'd hate to fault PA because of some of their obsessed readers. Sometimes they deserve a win and sometimes they don't, but it's not like they always win or anything. However, it's true they seem to get quite a few votes off people who don't even check the others. It's sad. Maybe you should make it so people have to hit the vote button once for each comic, cycling through every entrant before getting to the REAL vote button...
I would say, keep PA in, but install a "you can't win twice" rule, so the winner of last week isn't in the running...maybe extend it to a month if it's that bad...force people for at least ONE week each month to not choose PA, CAD, or VGCats. I don't know. At least, if you take them out, give them an honorable mention and a link in the post, even if you can't vote for them.
Personally, I always vote for F@Nb0Y$ regardless... :P
Erwos @ Dec 7th 2006 6:08AM
Keep them in. Give us, your readers, more credit. :)
gameclu @ Dec 6th 2006 10:22PM
In the end, it's just another internet poll with no basis in reality. So keep them in.
Que @ Dec 6th 2006 10:25PM
@12
Joystiq didn't describe them as that, Gabe did himself. He's obviously diluted if he believes it though. I rarely read the "blog/news" part, but I always read the comic.
Blind voting is obviously a problem; but if it's not PA, then it's VGCats, and if not them, it's CAD. Keep the round up and get rid of the poll.
Tig @ Dec 6th 2006 10:20PM
I would tend to agree with #16 - perhaps it would be considered a "Joystiq Webcomic Hall of Fame" or something similar.
The main point is that PA has achieved a level of success and such a following that they've achieved a quasi-brand name status.
In another view, they're essentially helping to pioneer a field. Some of those pioneers go on to great things and are known by everyone. PA, I feel, is case in point.
La De Da @ Dec 6th 2006 11:05PM
I agree with TJ there. Most web comic sites are "game news and opinion site with a comic". For PA to say that about themselfs, is like Kotaku saying they are a "game news and opinion site" and that what makes them different from the rest.
Anyhoot, if people are just click PA as the web comic of the week becasue it's PA, yeah, take 'em off. It's not like PA slams one out of the park every week anyway.
Mike @ Dec 6th 2006 10:50PM
You have to keep Penny Arcade. It's not like they take Oprah out of the Daytime Emmys just because she always wins. There's no question that it's a web comic. That it is also more than that does not mean that it's not a comic as well.
Ibrahim @ Dec 6th 2006 10:45PM
Keep them in, if they get voted for mindlessly they deserve it and anyway, their comic is pretty damn good so there's no point taking it out.
LunarCrisis @ Dec 6th 2006 10:40PM
I know that I love visiting the wrapup to see comics that I wouldn't have otherwise looked up. I (and, I suspect, many others) check Penny Arcade three times a week as it is, I don't see much of a point them being in the wrapup. Ditto about VGCats, though it's not as much a problem for them.
Frowelishnu @ Dec 7th 2006 1:41AM
I totally agree with Vlad Bien-Aimé (leave it in the wrap-up as a non-votable link), if and only if you are trying to promote good webcomics. People will read PA whether or not Joystiq links to it.
If, on the other hand, the poll is a popularity contest than you should leave it the way it is.
Right now the poll is a great popularity contest and a fair promotion of good webcomics.
I'd prefer the opposite.
MonkeyJohn @ Dec 6th 2006 10:49PM
Penny Arcade is just as much a gaming web comic as anything else being voted for. If anything I think Penny Arcade in some ways is a standard a lot of other comics should strive for. Leaving them out of weekly comic polls would be like leaving first party Nintendo games off a list of best games for the Gamecube because "it's not fair for everyone else when everyone votes for Mario and Zelda". They are popular for a reason.
Ninegauger @ Dec 6th 2006 10:57PM
I guess I agree with Gabe here if everyone feels that Penny Arcade wins too often just because they're Penny Arcade then take them out. I see that sometimes when some other comic is clearly funnier than the Penny Arcade that Penny Arcade still wins. I'd say perhaps 3 out of 4 times the Penny Arcade strip is actually superior and I vote for it. The other times I vote for something different.
So yeah take 'em out. Everyone knows they're funny so let the others go after the title every week. You could also just showcase the Penny Arcade but not allow them in the vote, just for completeness' sake.
Brandon @ Dec 6th 2006 10:50PM
I like Penny Arcade, but I don't always vote for it. I always vote for which one makes me laugh the most, which is usually VGCats. I always read each one though, because this post is like a quick way for me to see all of the comics without checking a bunch of different sites throughout the week. We could throw the voting out for all I care, as long as we still have the links.
If you do change the system, keep Penny Arcade in. It's not always the funniest, but sometimes it is. What you should do though, is code a validation into the site where each voter has to see all the comics. He may not read them, but at least make the voter go to the trouble of opening them. Then, just maybe, they might read them and pick a different one.
George Elexander Matthew James @ Dec 6th 2006 11:07PM
I agree with #16 and #18. Penny Arcade shouldn't be included in the poll. I enjoy PA as much as the next, but it -is- the most popular gaming webcomic. It deserves some sort of recognizance as a fantastic webcomic, but other strips that are just as good need some time in the limelight.
Matt @ Dec 6th 2006 11:09PM
I personally pick Penny-Arcade when I think they are funniest, and other comics when I think *they* are the most funny. I like the WWW because it helps publicize comics that many might not know about, and to be honest I visit Penny-Arcade daily regardless for the comic/news post, and other random posts that may be contributed.
So while I use the WWW in a way "it's meant to be used", if you will, I recognize others might just be idiots and vote for PA simply because they're PA, and that's somewhat counter-productive to the idea of the WWW if you ask me.
Jebus @ Dec 6th 2006 11:16PM
I think Penny Arcade does count as a webcomic, at least enough to remain in the poll. However, I think several people vote for it just because it is Penny Arcade regardless of if they made the funniest comic that particular week. If this is in fact the case than I say remove them. Besides, isn't the poll about getting smaller webcomics more exposure? Penny Arcade is a great comic, but I don't think it really needs any more exposure. I wouldn't be surprised if it pulls more hits a day that Joystiq anyway.
minus_273 @ Dec 6th 2006 11:07PM
The poll is silly and has a no meaning aside from showing us some funny comics that we wouldnt have seen otherwise. crown PA the standard bearer since they always seem to win, always link to them so people can see the funniest comics they published that week and then list the others. Simple. I use th poll to see comics more than actually vote and i go to PA anyway.
In a nutshell, declare PA the champion and then let the others duke it out. Should make both sides happy.
Pince @ Dec 7th 2006 3:32PM
Bah. For every person who votes for PA just because it is PA, there is likely someone who doesn't vote for PA just because its PA.
I even do that sometimes; not because I dont like PA (I've read the entire archives a good couple of times on boring nights - they have some hilarious stuff), but because there are so many good smaller comics out there that could use the tiny bit of publicity they may get from a Joystiq post declaring them winner of the poll, and I really appreciate seeing those comics, even though I still read PAs new comics and newsposts regularly.
Furthermore, if you take out PA, at what point do you have to remove VGCats, and at that point I guess you have to get rid of CAD, DA, DU, Fanboys, etc etc. Until a single comic starts winning every week for reasons obviously not related to comedic merit, there is no reason to suggest removing PA from the polls.
ZaxCG2 @ Dec 16th 2006 11:50PM
Uhhh... so thats why I never thoroughly got those comics? It was supposed to be attached to news reports? Heck, I don't give a crap enough to find that out.
I think they are still equally funny with the rest of the crowd. Keep em in.
Tequilla @ Dec 6th 2006 11:24PM
Joystiq, censorship is a great way to artificially control your media. While you’re at it, there is a lot of negative press regarding the PS3 relative to the Xbox 360. May I suggest you start suppressing any further PS3 news that is negative or 360 news that is positive. You know… in the spirit of artificially balancing the playing ground.
Please note the sarcasm.
As for Gabe’s comments, I frankly don’t understand them. My local paper is mostly news, but the comics are no less legit.
For what it is worth, I never vote on the comic polls anyway.
ActualFarkal @ Dec 6th 2006 11:25PM
In my oh-so humble opinion, take PA out of the listing. They've made it. They've got enough money to fund a Charity for God's sake. I've found several comics in the wrapup poll that I didn't know about, and I think the poll is a great way to help these lesser known comics make a name for themselves.
Duo @ Dec 6th 2006 11:30PM
Gabe's words have solidified my wobbly opinion on this matter: Take PA out of the Webcomic Vote.
No need to explain, people have already done so for me.
btboy500 @ Dec 6th 2006 11:47PM
I say to keep PA in, because it isn't their fault if some fans don't vote legitimately, while many others do. When I consider Penny Arcade to have had the highest quality comic, then I vote for them, when I don't, I vote otherwise.
Darren Tilley @ Dec 6th 2006 11:43PM
Can someone explain why my comment was deleted?
Roy Huang @ Dec 6th 2006 11:58PM
keep it! I wouldn't even think people would vote for PA just cause they're PA. I vote for whichever comic I think was the funniest. PA is really good though, and I think you should keep it in.
jadenguy @ Dec 7th 2006 12:08AM
i usually read the blog posts before the comments. tycho always has the most interesting things to say, and i'm always interested in hearing them. but i'm a huge fan of gabe's work, so i've never missed the chance to look at it and even track down some of this other stuff, like ads and stuff. had a collection a while back. think i lost it in a format. i don't always, maybe even usually, vote pa, it just depends what's funniest to me at the moment.
never a WoW comic. ever.
but PA got to be PA by being PA, so i'm sure lots of new fans vote that way. it's PA. if you don't find it funny, vote for the funniest. but being or not being a penny arcade an is like being or not being a nintendo fan or being or not being a christian. there is no right answer, and EVERYBODY wants to tell you why what you are is the WRONG answer.
John @ Dec 7th 2006 12:27AM
Keep PA, the fact they aren't always about gaming doesn't mean a good gaming comic shouldn't be included. You guys included Dilbert recently. I think the best solution is to provide links on the front page to generate publicity and then a poll after the break.
And to all the ignorant smart alecs- the reason why we're speculating people vote for PA just because is for two reasons:
1) In the last edition, someone admitted it; just one person, but illuminating nonetheless
2) The one time Joystiq tried placing the poll after the break, there was only a fraction of the number of usual voters (I believe 2/3 of the usual number). PA didn't win that week, because they were missing their usual 1/3 majority. Coincidence? Maybe. Let's find out by placing polls after the break.
Michael R. @ Dec 7th 2006 12:29AM
I feel that it should be less of a debate over whether PA is a web comic or not (just because it has both the post and the comic doesn't make it any lees of a comic), but since PA is a juggernaut of a comic strip, it is overshadowing the other strips featured. People just vote for PA because of name recognition.
As a person who runs his own web comic (http://www.mike.dinovsrobot.com) similar in presentation to PA (I include a post and a comic), I feel that PA doesn't need to get voted on as to if it's the best of the week or not. We know it's good, so it should just a given.
I've always seen the roundup as a "best of" the weeks comics that maybe we don't know about. There are a lot of [video game themed] comics out there, and Penny Arcade was the inspiration for most of them. So lets assume that people know about PA (if they're reading this site odds are pretty good they do) and concentrate on the other comics out there.
get over it @ Dec 7th 2006 12:46AM
"people vote for PA just because it's PA without even bothering to read the other comics" seems to be a common theme in a lot of the comic wrap-up (and this) posts comments...
is that even true?
how has this been determined?
i see a lot of people saying this is what's going on whenever PA wins but maybe once in a while i come across a post from someone who actually says that's what they did.
of course that post is referred to by 20 other people and magnified to the point that it's an accepted fact by everyone that PA is winning on name recognition alone even though an actual number of people voting for PA for that reason can't be determined.
there's people who find carlos mencia funny for some reason, that alone is proof of the subjective nature of humor. some weeks PA is the funniest thing presented to me... there are weeks when it isn't. sometimes someone else has a great joke and some of the other comics also tend to have a great concept that they blow with a clumsy presentation simply because they don't have the experience or skill that is present with PA. they usually get special consideration with my vote... if i can see what they were going for and it was funny i can forgive spelling errors, poor art or weak language skills and give them the vote. on the other end of the spectrum, anyone who recycles a joke or over used internet opinion of the moment like the "real time weapon change" or "attack it's weak spot for massive damage" crap that everyone brings up way too often gets dismissed without a thought, no matter how professionally they present it.