Joystiq asks: should Penny Arcade be in the webcomic poll?

by Ross Miller on Dec 6th 2006 9:25PM

Since its inception just over a year ago, the Weekly Webcomic Wrapup has always had issues with Penny Arcade's inclusion. We have heard both sides of the argument, both for and against their use in the webcomic poll, and we always decide to keep them in the running -- 'tis but a silly poll, anyways.

However, we have talked with an unlikely proponent for possibly keeping comic out of the weekly poll: Gabe from Penny Arcade.On Tuesday, Gabe left a comment on our WWW post suggesting that they're not a webcomic as much as they are "game news and opinion site. Part of it is a news post and part of it is a comic strip." Speaking more on the subject with Joystiq, Gabe (also known as Mike Krahulik, shh) told us that "if you feel like people are voting for PA just because it's PA and that's not what you want then feel free to take us out of the equation."

We want to be able showcase as many game-related webomics as possible, big and small, and as long as that is accomplished then we don't care. However, after Gabe's response we decided to reopen the debate: is Penny Arcade hurting the smaller comics on the poll -- or, more importantly, is Penny Arcade even classified as a webcomic, seeing as their news posts / blog entries are equally as important? It's important to note that, despite PA's inclusion, it does not always finish in the top three for the weekly wrapups.

Gabe's response to Joystiq has been reprinted, with permission, after the break. Let us know how you feel on the subject.

As far as appearing in the Wrapup, it's your call but like I said before it's fine with us if you'd like to leave us out. Personally I feel like the comic strip and the news post are essentially one piece and shouldn't be separated. They really rely on each other and that's why I don't think of us ans just a web comic or just a blog. I'm not saying what we do is better. God knows there are plenty of people who complain about not understanding the strip without reading the post. Plenty of people think it's a pain in the ass. We've been fortunate that enough people do like it that we can do this for a living.

Also I don't want it to cause a problem with your voting system. If you feel like people are voting for PA just because it's PA and that's not what you want then feel free to take us out of the equation. If our spot can go to some other gaming comic that could use the attention then by all means do it. If you can showcase some strips each week that people may not have heard of and cut out a bunch of drama by removing us then it sounds like that's the right move.

It's great to see what people think of the comic and it's important to get that feedback. We've been doing this eight years though and we realised a long time ago that you can't please everyone. All you can do is make a comic that you think is funny and hope other people agree.

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Tags: penny arcade, PennyArcade, web comic, WebComic

Reader Comments (86)

You know what?

I say keep Penny Arcade.

This isn't based on being a huge PA fan, It's good, but it's not one of my primaries. I say leave it in for two simple reasons:

1.) If it's not there, we don't know how it would do and there's no real way to guestimate, but if it is there, you can always just remove PA from the equation to get a general idea of how the other webcomics would have placed without it being in the picture

2.) Let's face it, If you manage to beat PA on a gaming website in popularity, that's pretty decent bragging rights that you've got there. At the very least, leave them for this reason.

PA isn't even always on the poll. I say leave them on, when they're requested. Because when they are, they're funny. I remember one week when there a bunch of no name comics on the poll, and the problem wasn't necessarily that they were no name, but that they SUCKED. But when a no name beats out PA, CAD, VG (I've NEVER voted for that one though...), then that's something. And it does happen.

to be honest i agree with the idea to have a link to them but not have them in the vote cause i'm probably one of the people who just choose PA cause its PA, and people like me need to broaden their horizens.

Haha wow, I was just hoping to decrease some drama:) That really backfired on me I guess. You guys do whatever you want. Also while I'm in here, thanks to Joystiq for all the Child's Play support.

One vote for keeping Peeny Arcade.

Gabes comment is such bs, thats the snooty Wii excuse, saying youre not part of the competition at all just because you do things a little bit different. And pretty much every webcomic now has a daily blog to acompany the comic strip anyway, thats nothing out of the norm at all!

But this isnt about politics or morals or any complicated mumbo jumbo like that, its a poll asking what the best webcomic of the week is, if PE happens to win, then its because it was the best comic of the week in the opinion of the majority, and if they happen to win a lot, then they must be pretty good at what they do, good for them. Thats it. The end! Go home everybody, please!

To be honest they are still a comic, and the majority of their strips are gaming related. Regardless of whether Gabe and Tycho are having an identity crisis, they should be included in the webcomic wrapup vote.

If you are going to take any out - take all the smaller comics out. I'm sorry, the reason they get so little votes is because they are not funny.

Keep them in, jesus christ.

Who really cares who wins? What I like about the webcomic poll is that it gives me a central location every week to read the best webcomics (and also some incredibly lame ones but anyways). If PA is out, that would be very sad and would make it a lot less interesting.

I don't understand what the criteria for being in the poll is in the first place. Clearly, there are hundreds of GREAT webcomics out there, most of which deal with gaming at least occasionally. It seems to me that if PA exceeds expectations, it should be included.
It should not, however, be included by default in the polling simply because it is 'The PA.'
I don't even understand if this is a question. Is this just making sure your readership will condone your obvious discretion?
The obvious purpose of the poll is to popularize deserving webcomics, not to pay homage to two guys who pretty much define the genre.
Do what you feel, yo.

Why even bother with a poll? Why not just list the week's best comics, as determined by the editors, as is currently being done, but without the inclusion of the pointless poll element?

I personally dont care whether it wins purely coz it's PA. What i like about the Wrapup, being somebody without hours every day to trawl the web is that i get a collection of the best webcomics from around the web every week - i do vote for the one i think is best, however for me, its more the ease of having them all in one place!

Keep them in!

The solution to PA winning so often isn't to remove PA; it's to force readers to view all entries by hiding which URL goes where (to deter the mindless vote) and for the comics to step up their game.

I love PA; and I don't always vote PA. But I'd say I've voted PA vs. others about 50% of the time, because more often than not, PA has the finger on the pulse.

PA is a webcoming, it's about gaming, so include it.. to do not so would beat the point of your whole game webcomic thing. Now the problem lies in the voting system, so perhaps you can solve the problem by taking out the voting and just having a webcomic wrapup. That way we can all see the comics, have a laugh and the fanboys will be left crying. Good riddance.

There's no doubt about it, Penny Arcade definitely isn't just another webcomic. It's just like Gabe said, it's a gaming new and opinion site... which happens to have be pretty damn funny comic strips along with it most of the time.

I'm not going to say anything that hasn't been said before on the subject I can imagine, but you do have to admit that comparing Penny Arcade to any other "webcomic" is pretty much pointless. I say keep it in the running just to hear all the fanboys argue.

Hey guys, give Gabe a break. I mean, calling him snooty? So what if he called PA an "opinion" site, it's not like he felt up his cousin in the garage that one time when I was 19.

... Okay ignore that, I just wanted to drop some Family Guy in there. Hey you know what I havn't had in a while? Big League chew.

Doesn't anyone think we should be discussing the removal of CAD from the poll (and our memories)?

What I'm trying to say is that CAD is a very bad comic.

That's like asking if McDonald's should be considered a Fast Food restaurant.

In a world where so many small time comic artists struggle to launch their strip, Penny Arcade sits upon it's throne, crown atop it's head. The strip and newspost are a great combination and Gabe and Tycho have earned that place. The reason for keeping them out is not a technical issue about whether or not they are a webcomic, it is those smaller comics who need the press your webcomic wrap-up provides. If people automatically hit Penny Arcade when they vote they aren't taking a look at other strips. That's why Penny Arcade should be dropped from the list, to give other comics who need it more a chance at popularity, so that a comic like Into The Blastwave (google it up) can get the recognition it deserves.

Note: Into the Blastwave probably doesn't belong on the wrap up either, considering that it isn't exactly a gaming comic. Damn good strip though.

One advantage of not reading any video gaming webcomics is that I can laugh at how very silly everyone is - particularly with the rampant misspellings. My favorite is the one calling the PA guys "diluted" - apparently, they've got too much water in them.

I couldn't care one way or the other if any given webcomic ever gets mentioned here on Joystiq. However, I note that many of the webcomic artists here want PA to stay. I suspect there's two reasons.

One, as many will admit, they are all fans of the strip, and they want to see it recognized. That's fair, and in line with what their non-drawing fans are saying.

But I suspect the unspoken desire is that they like to have the bragging rights on the off-weeks PA *doesn't* win. And there's nothing wrong with that, either.

If you want to reduce the blind voting's effect, the best option is, as above, dividing into divisions. Base it off of either Alexa ranking, or hit counts if you can find 'em. Sure, you'll still get the blind voters, but they'll just be affecting a race between Penny Arcade, Control-Alt-Delete, and VG Cats. The smaller webcomics get their own division to shine, and you can just move them up if/when they get more attention.

Some people vote for Penny Arcade because of Gabe and Tycho's blog.

I suspect a few people vote against VGCats because it's "furry".

And I'm certain many people ignore the other comics because the art is crappy.

So, yeah, the system is flawed. Tough luck. Gabe and Tycho *earned* their extra popularity by going the extra mile, by creating a blog and playing into what's cool.

Is Penny Arcade hurting the smaller comics on the poll? I doubt it. Who honestly uses the results of the vote to decide what to read? To me, the value of the wrapup is in the offering of the choices in the first place. By linking to comics, you are pointing people to their work, and perhaps exposing those strips to a new audience. There, they can gain new readers or not, according to their merit. The vote is secondary.

If people are going to remain slavishly dedicated to a choice and automatically vote for it without reading the other comics, removing their favorite option from the list is not going to change any minds. The only way the results even matter is as a matter of pride to fanboys or perhaps as feedback to the webcomic authors. And even then, the creators are probably better served by direct feedback if people really want to give them advice on how to improve their comic.

The only way a comic can lose is by not being listed as an option, and the only way a reader of Joystiq can lose is to be unaware of the gaming webcomics out there. In this sense, excluding Penny Arcade would be unfair not just to Penny Arcade, but to the few people who may not have had the opportunity to sample their work.

Simple simple. Just include PA in the poll when they have a webcomic that's better than the non-PA comic that'd otherwise get included.

"Gabe left a comment on our WWW post suggesting that they're not a webcomic as much as they are "game news and opinion site. Part of it is a news post and part of it is a comic strip."

Uh-huh. Someone sure thinks a lot of themselves.

Relax for christsake. It's a comic strip - leave it in. People go to the site to read the comic, and then sometimes stick around to read their little rants afterwords...not the other way around.

Penny Arcade is, more often than not, the only one in the poll that doesn't make me grimace in discomfort, let alone find slightly humorous.

I say take Penny Arcade out of the voting. But I also say that if there is an exceptionally good comic, put an honorable mention in the winners announcement.

I say take out all of the big names (ctrl+alt+del, PA, VG Cats...) keep the smaller comics in the spotlight, so that maybe those comics will grow in their fanbase. The big webcomics are already big enough as it is, they certainly don't need the extra hype.

I agree with PA though, their webcomics usually funnier when tied to the post, that's not a bad thing as that's just a different way of doing a strip.

Otherwise, just keep PA and everyone else, besides, PA isn't always on there and if you win...

it's just a friggin poll!

I'm a huge PA fan, have been for years, so I'm going to be a little biased, but I think still fair.

My view is this:
PA's comic's should be included in the poll, but on a case by case basis. As a long-running fan of PA I'm more than willing to admit that some of the comics just fall flat, no one is always 100% on. Additionally, many time's the comic just doesn't have anything to do with a video game. The video game industry sure, but not always games themselves.

So I propose that Non-game related PA comics be excluded from that weeks poll. I know that I've not voted for them on occasion here, siding with VGCats or a smaller comic a couple times. And I encourage people not to vote for PA every time JUST BECAUSE it's Gabe and Tycho (no matter how much ass they kick in general), but rather for the quality of the work when compared to the other entries.

Like Ross said, PA doesn't even win every poll, so it's not like it's completely lopsided. I say keep PA in, but selectively based on comic content.

Oh and DONATE TO CHILD'S PLAY! It will save your soul you heathens ;)

I think you should take PA out. I am guilty as charged of voting for PA almost no matter what. It's almost not fair to have PA in there. It's like having to pick the best basketball player with Michael Jordan on the list every time.

Keep it in.

Keep Penny Arcade on the poll. They don't really skew the results that much, especially since they don't always win. (Same with VG Cats) They win when they deserve to win.

Saying that you read Penny Arcade for the articles is like saying that you picked up the latest issue of Playboy for the interview with whatever jackass happens to be represented in that month's issue.

Playboy is a tit rag at heart, and PA is a webcomic at its core. People on message boards don't post quotes from the "articles" on PA, they post the strips.

PS: Penny Arcade kind of sucks. Then again, all webcomics kind of suck, and the subgenre of gamer-themed webcomics suck particularly hard. The only webcomics I read anymore are qwantz.com and achewood.com and even those comics suck half the time.

I should probably let this die but I want to make one thing clear. Me saying we are not just a web comic is not me having delusions of grandeur. If you say PA is just a web comic then you are overlooking Jerry's new post which I think is just as important as the strip. It's okay if you don't agree with me on that but he's my friend and I'm not going to discount his work by saying all we are is a comic strip. Maybe it's semantics but I think it's important.

First....

@Gabe

Wherever you have more than 3 opinions, you have drama. I take it you read your own forums from time to time? ;)

Secondly....

I have now read EVERY post and here are the best suggestions IMO:

1) Keep PA. Artificially controlling opinions has shown to just. not. work. Furthermore, it's a bit of a slap to your readers because it's implying that a MAJORITY don't know how to vote "right" so you have to help us.

2) Put the polls after the break. You may get less votes, but hopefully they will be "higher quality" votes. If you care enough to see the selections after the jump, logic suggests you will also care enough to make a better informed vote.

3) Don't separate comics into different "leagues". That's just silly imo. Those who feel that PA won because they are PA can just decide for themselves that #2 is the real winner.

Lastly....

PA is "different" becuase it has a blog too? Gabe...love ya...but....that's right up there with some of Ken Kataguri's statements. "PA blog does massive damage!" By your logic, we should take out CAD too because they offer an animated comic - Or VGcats....cuz they use cats. In short....your just not THAT different. Your just consistantly better. There is nothing wrong with being proud of that. So cut the false humility and welcome the drama......it's much more entertaining. hehe.

BTW.....

@Scott Rubin (#75 as of this post)

Yeah....MJ always wins in a basketball poll....

But what legit and credible agency has not included him anyway? I certainly have never heard ESPN say, "Who is the best bball player other than Michael Jordan?"

This is because you CANNOT become SO good at basketball that you are no longer a basketball player.

Similarly, your webcomic CANNOT become SOOOO good that it is no longer a webcomic.

I'd say that, yes it is a webcomic. But if Penny-Acade themselves dont think it sould be on, then it may be a good idea to look at alternitves...

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Joystiq asks: should Penny Arcade be in the webcomic poll?

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