German states mull violent game ban
The Financial Times reports that the German states of Bavaria and Lower Saxony have drafted legislation the would lead to fines and jail time for developers, distributors and even players of games that involve "cruel violence on humans or human-looking characters." The proposed laws, which would affect nearly 19 million Germans, come in response to a recent school shooting by a masked, 18-year-old German Counter-Strike fan that has turned public sentiment in the country against violent games.
Bavarian Interior Minister Gunther Beckstein is leading the effort to pass the legislation, arguing "it is absolutely beyond any doubt that such killer games desensitise [sic] unstable characters and can have a stimulating effect." Despite complaints by German gamers, 59 percent of Germans at large support such a ban, according to a poll cited by the Financial Times.
Germany has a long history of tough restrictions on violent games from Doom to Gears of War, and an outright ban would likely affect high-profile PS3 launch games like Resistance: Fall of Man and Call of Duty 3.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Jonathan Atkins @ Dec 7th 2006 2:30PM
Absolute insanity... what's next?
chenry @ Dec 7th 2006 2:35PM
hm... this sounds familiar.... did they do something like this before?
kinshadow @ Dec 7th 2006 2:36PM
How do you define "human-looking"? Just Bi-pedal creatures? Can they be purple? Does RFOM even count as "human-on-human" (yes, I know the Chimera were once human)?
get over it @ Dec 7th 2006 2:37PM
maybe jack thompson should move to germany... he might have a chance at winning a case there.
dotmadhack @ Dec 7th 2006 2:38PM
Oh no, it's not the parents fault, god forbid they watch their kids.
Balla360 @ Dec 7th 2006 2:38PM
"what's next?"
Probably the Jewish.
wupperbayer @ Dec 7th 2006 2:40PM
If that really gets through all the legal stuff like the parliament and such, I’ll suggest Bavaria and Lower Saxony should also ban alcohol and cars, as they kill much, much more people than computer games do.
Perhaps I should emigrate to Austria, where I as a mature man can get the games I want.
spyder23 @ Dec 7th 2006 2:44PM
Hmmm Germany getting worked up about Call of Duty? Now thees a surprise!
wupperbayer @ Dec 7th 2006 2:45PM
@Balla360: You know, at some point, probably about 30 years ago, those “jokes” got annoying.
sam @ Dec 7th 2006 2:47PM
German facism FTL
Kyle @ Dec 7th 2006 2:52PM
Unfortunately successful litigation overseas may affect us as stateside politician will have evidence of such a plan being implemented, whether it really has any positive effect will be irrelevant.
Steve @ Dec 7th 2006 2:54PM
Ain't socialism grand?
Sheesh!
Anyway, who knows? Maybe this is actually a good idea for Germany. Those people do have a tendency start world wars and incinerate those who they consider "unpure". It's anyone's guess what sets them off! (I blame their Klingon-based language)
Kyle @ Dec 7th 2006 3:00PM
english is a germanic language
Intentless @ Dec 7th 2006 3:05PM
Ummmm... I don't think english is germanic.... Ummm... English does share a few common words but... Germanic wouldn't be the term... If I recall German is slightly related to French and Spanish distantly.... Like an assosiate just stated english is the shephards pie of languages...
wupperbayer @ Dec 7th 2006 3:09PM
English is Germanic, whether you accept it or not ;) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Language
PXPAULX @ Dec 7th 2006 3:09PM
i guess the nazis just can't get over wolfenstein, i mean call of duty 3 - thats the sequel right?
Steve @ Dec 7th 2006 3:16PM
wupperbayer, 30 years ago the USA was 110 years away from banishing the slavery that the Europeans introduced into our culture and today Americans are condemned the world over for practicing slavery (a practice which still exists elsewhere in the world and is apparently acceptable when the American interests are not involved in any way) So you'll have to pardon me for not giving a damn that Germans are tired of hearing jokes about their recent history of incinerating Jews and other so-called unpure people; especially when some of the survivors of those camps are still alive to this very day.
wupperbayer @ Dec 7th 2006 3:19PM
@Germany haters: You’re lame. Really. And you don’t seem to understand why swastikas are banned in Germany. But well. Shall I call you “religious morons”? That’d be nearly your level of “arguing”.
wupperbayer @ Dec 7th 2006 3:23PM
@Steve: I didn’t want to talk about current politics and such things as “Guantanamo” or “Iraq”, not even about past politics as “Vietnam” or your exaggerated communism fear in the 1950s. But if you want to, be free to do so.
crono141 @ Dec 7th 2006 3:26PM
Intentless, you don't know what you are talking about.
French, Spanish, Italian are romance languages, with their base in Latin. Germany and english are, you guessed it, germanic languages with their roots in the barbarians of Europe that conquered Rome.
Ok, so I don't know what German comes from, but I do know that English is germanic. It shares similar grammar and sentence structure, vs the seemingly random sentence structure of romance languages (verb before subject, WTF?).
Don't worry Balla360, there are plenty of Joystiqers who can appreciate a joke in bad taste.
gLitterbug @ Dec 7th 2006 3:27PM
I thank God every day that I live in Austria. Germans politics get more retarded and destructive to their country each day. It's really funny in a sad way how one shooting of a crazy kid who felt like he was "not getting any attention" since his very early years is used to try to push such a law. As mentioned above there are many other things that cost more lives each day, but putting the blame on something like videogames of course is much easier than blaming the parents not raising their kid properly or at all. Also helps a lot distracting from real problems.
Does anyone know about that guys parents? I didn't hear anything at all about the parents in any of the news on the german TV, which makes me wonder if they are of a better status and therefore got kept out of the news more than some small poor family would've been(especially if he'd been an immigrant).
wupperbayer @ Dec 7th 2006 3:34PM
@gLitterbug: No, afaik the German media didn’t say anything about the guy’s parents. Perhaps not only because they are wealthier people but also because bashing video games is so much easier.
Und ich glaube, ich muss irgendwann auch mal umziehen ;)
Oh sorry, stupid nazi language -.-
wupperbayer @ Dec 7th 2006 3:34PM
Yes, bateman, and 97,5% of those 59% have never ever saw any video games. ;-)
pat bateman @ Dec 7th 2006 3:40PM
Those Germans don't have the taste for school shootings that us Americans have. One school shooting and 59 % of germans support banning violent videogames.
Woohooo!!!! bring on some more violence
pat bateman @ Dec 7th 2006 3:40PM
Seriously though, I don't find any reason why we should judge a country where popular opinion believes they should ban violent videogames. Although I am against most laws that limit free speech, let Germany be run by Germans
We, as Americans, ban plenty of things other countries in the world find stupid. Marijuana, for example. Prostitution is another. Prostitution is legal in Germany, but Banned in every American state except for Nevada. Let Germans run their country how they see fit.
effzehn @ Dec 7th 2006 3:50PM
I don't get the whole language thing. Why are some guys judging about another language without understanding it and take this as an argument. Now, that is fascistic.
Let's talk about what we have in common. Otherwise anything is lost.
Kyle @ Dec 7th 2006 3:51PM
I wonder what the polls would show here if they presented the same argument. While everyone here supports videogames I'm sure a large contingent of people would glady support placebo legislation as it wouldn't affect them.
Xuse @ Dec 7th 2006 3:57PM
That country is gonna shit its pants when school shootings increase after the banning of violent games.
We're gonna have a bunch of angry kids with nothing to play and a bunch of real guns.
I can't even critque their logic when none exists.
Hammy @ Dec 7th 2006 4:14PM
i think the solution isn't to ban video games but instead to promote video games that aren't violent in nature... look at your shelf, how many video games on there don't involve killing things?
even so-called innovative games like pikmin or shadow of the colossus still revolve around the taking living creature's (albeit animated) lives away!
more than half of the games produced either revolve around killing things, or imitating things you can do in real life, poorly, i.e. sports games. gee, video games are such an innovative and artistic medium! /sarcasm
Myself @ Dec 7th 2006 4:14PM
I feel this way about all school shootings:
These kids that shoot up schools are relentlessly picked on, bullied, and segregated to the point that going to school is a painful existence.
Mess with someone enough, they will break. You will not like the revenge.
willis @ Dec 7th 2006 4:46PM
It's a proven fact that Hitler played GTA: Blitzkrieg Bop. He also hacked the parental features on his parents Tivo and watched PG-13 rated movies when he was only 12. Obviously all violent behavior in Germany can be blamed on video games or TV.
Mr. Khan @ Dec 7th 2006 4:55PM
@ willis
lol GTA: Blitzkrieg Bop
Funniest name ever
and i agree with Mr. Bateman, don't concern yourself with the Internal affairs of other nations, America did it with Iraq, and look where that got us
(Afghanistan was not an INTERNAL affair, since Taliban policies actively promoted al-Qaeda, which in turn affected us)
Scott @ Dec 7th 2006 5:18PM
And Continental Europe shows again why it's losing the battle between western europe workers and immigrants.
All Western Europeans have lost their dag-gummin' minds!
Jon @ Dec 7th 2006 5:26PM
While this response may be a bit Draconian, the use of video games and computer screens images has proven by military trainers to be an effective tool to desensitize soldiers to actual killing.
Gamers should read the book On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society by Dave Grossman, if they don’t think that regular playing of computer games that involve killing people doesn’t emotionally detach the player from the act of killing.
mGGus @ Dec 7th 2006 5:39PM
To everyone:
I guess we all agree that in germany there as many fucked up people as in every other country of the world. We might be high-tech, low-class, leaderhosen and beer guzzling assholes but you all are too in a way. Think of your country, your government, your history every nation has it's bad sides. I always say: "Assholes come in all colors".Its the exceptions that count :P. It's all the same BS everywhere and anytime -has been, will be. So just because some big-mouthed self-righteous politicians once again try to make themselves the center of the universe for a short while we surely shouldn't engage in endless discussions about past warcrimes on whose ever ground.
Keep your eyes open for what lies ahead of ya! I don't say never look back but remember that you just did turn because you needed to know which way you were supposed to run (away into a better place, that is). World politics is a mess and we all should know that ... unfortunately many of us are keeping their eyes shut as hard as they possibly can (while holding out their greedy hands). Now don't you worry about some rants against videogames ... you better consider getting into the net-neutrality movement or protest the patriot act or whatever ... these things are really dangerous and if we didn't live in such a kind of f****d up psychotic paranoid competition society there would be less school shootings and of that I am sure.
Catprog @ Dec 7th 2006 6:04PM
to Jon
You should read "Killing monsters why children need fantasy, super heroes and make-believe violence" by Gerard Jones.
By restricting violence someone in the book got very violent mainly the section "Fantasy and Reality"
UserDoesNotExist @ Dec 7th 2006 6:21PM
Something to consider. "Nazism" was not called National Socialism just because Hitler thought it sounded cool. If you actually take a look at what was accomplished under the Nazi regime, it was a model socialist government, with an efficient welfare system (which was not nearly as utilized as it is now due to unemployment being at historic lows,) minimum poverty, a ban on firearms, and the world's first environmental preservation laws. But model socialist governments come at a price.
Germany is in serious, serious danger. By refusing to acknowledge their dark past and pretending it never happened, not even teaching their school children about it, they're starting to walk down the same path again. Censorship and government control of private civilians is only the beginning. The lesson that was to be learned from Nazi Germany wasn't that Germans are bad. It is that even the world's most civilized country (circa the 1900's) can quickly descend into hatred and fascism. We are not immune to this in the modern age by any stretch of the imagination. As a matter of fact, we are probably more susceptible to it due to the convergence of media. Just look at what a boon the Internet has been to Al Qaeda.
Jigzat @ Dec 7th 2006 6:23PM
Yeah and they also should ban Jesus Crist Images, you know because of the cruel violence on human-looking characters.
TheMisfit @ Dec 7th 2006 6:26PM
@Steve Whats wrong with you?
German starts world wars?Yes we do 70 years ago!But who is now the war Pig?USA!
We survive Hitler,but you have to survive bush and his whole bunch of a**holes!
Im tired to hear that Germans are still Nazis!
BTW:I dont care about this guy named Beckstein!Hes Bavarian,thats hard enough for him!
Pope @ Dec 7th 2006 6:26PM
Even if it is the case such games "desensitise unstable characters and can have a stimulating effect", the "unstable characters" will still exist in society and that is not down to computer games. It is the social problems that cause these people to kill because something is wrong in their life. You need to sort that out.
It's just like weeds, you have to get rid of the whole plant and not just cut what's easy to see, leaving the root to grow again. Idiots.
corridor @ Dec 7th 2006 7:04PM
't is an odd decision...I don't think the gamers or developers should
be punished, but the parents who neglect to raise their children
properly.
also... germany may have started the world war, but
eh... wasn't there an entire world who joined in on the fight? 't is
not called a world war for nothing, you know...
sidenote: i don't support nazi or anything, i just simply don't believe every german must be just like the one person who started it, and quite frankly, i don't really understand why this is added to the commentary; seeing as it's got little to do with the actual article.
effzehn @ Dec 7th 2006 7:49PM
@ UserDoesNotExist
What country is that youre talking about? The vast majority of Germans don't refuse to acknowledge their fucked up history.
I agree with the other points.
superuser @ Dec 7th 2006 7:50PM
@ #37 UserDoesNotExis
"By refusing to acknowledge their dark past and pretending it never happened, not even teaching their school children about it"
Sorry, but you don't know anyhing about germany.
I was forced to learn about all this WW1 and WW2 shit for years in school. And even in my free time I'm regulary tortured by TV-Documentations and Movies about the fucking history of Germany. And that is ok, bc nobody should forget what gruel things happend in the past.
But I have to add, that I don't feel guilty or something like that, bc I was born over 30 years after the end of WW2. I have absolutely nothing to do do with the crimes of the past. So please stop bashing people for living in germany!
wiz @ Dec 7th 2006 8:30PM
@UserDoesNotExist:
"But model socialist governments come at a price."
Do you want to say that you can govern a state in a social way only if you start a world war and kill millions of innocent people? Just bullshit!
"By refusing to acknowledge their dark past and pretending it never happened, not even teaching their school children about it,"
Simply wrong...
Arminator @ Dec 8th 2006 3:18AM
The problem (as a German) that I have with our politics, is their blind activism.
Before going on his killing spree, the killer put up a letter on his homepage, where he criticizes the behaviour of his "friends" and classmates.
He wrote, as long as you have the latest cellphone, the hippest clothes and pimpest friends, you were accepted as a friend.
If you didn't have all that, you were uncool, and an outsider.
And this is what happened to him. He was not accepted by his schoolmates, and this frustrated him.
Furthermore, as a student in a secondary school, he had almost no perspective of getting a good job - a point he also criticized in his letter as a cause of frustration.
He had access to weapons. Weapons in Germany are controlled very strictly. You can't just go into Wal-Mart and buy a gun here.
Its a lot of paperwork and registration stuff, and most of the time you are only allowed to keep the weapon unloaded and locked away.
But instead of solving the apparent social problems in Germany, the politicians choose to ban videogames.
reppy @ Dec 8th 2006 5:10AM
This is actually an attempt to destroy Microsoft and Sony's market in Germany so that only Nintendo games can be sold.
Charles @ Dec 8th 2006 6:56AM
UserDoesNotExist: What planet are you from? School in Germany isn't about education, it's about making little kids feel guilty for something they don't have the least bit to do with. I had to watch videos of concentration camp inmates getting shot, hanged, burned and whatever at the age of 9 in primary school.
ruddiger @ Dec 8th 2006 7:11AM
I don't see how this legislation has much if anything to do with "socialism". Bavaria is considered the most conservative state in Germany, and their current government is Christian Social Union party. Lower Saxony is currently government by the CSU's non Bavarian equivalent, the Christian Democratic Union party. And Germany is pretty much the only country that has taken full responsibility for its past mistakes. If you want denial, go check out Austria.
Gonzo @ Dec 8th 2006 3:54PM
Yea Sure,
It's REAL hard to imagine a German (of all people) shooting a bunch of people without the influence of a video game.
To German politicians study their own nation's sorted history.
I too hope Thompson moves to Germany. Either he can start to feel usefull (far away from us) or he'll get shot. Both are good.
Matt @ Dec 10th 2006 11:30AM
We are talking about the country that started 2 World Wars, not to mention killed millions of jews.....Nice job Germany. I can understand why you don't want COD3....German on German actiom